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On 07/06/2012 05:43 PM, Rachel Dwight wrote: > I propose that there be a check box on the "Add/Edit Artist" screen that > if checked, marks the artist as fictional. > > Ticket: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-4977 > This RFC will expire on 7/13. +1, I like it. Will need to be a schema change, though…
On Jul 6, 2012, at 5:59 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: > On 07/06/2012 05:43 PM, Rachel Dwight wrote: >> I propose that there be a check box on the "Add/Edit Artist" screen that >> if checked, marks the artist as fictional. >> >> Ticket: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-4977 >> This RFC will expire on 7/13. > > +1, I like it. Will need to be a schema change, though… I thought I stipulated that in the ticket... Did it not go through? > > > _______________________________________________ > MusicBrainz-style mailing list > MusicBrainz-style@... > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 2:05 AM, Rachel Dwight <hibiscuskazeneko@...> wrote: > > On Jul 6, 2012, at 5:59 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: > >> On 07/06/2012 05:43 PM, Rachel Dwight wrote: >>> I propose that there be a check box on the "Add/Edit Artist" screen that >>> if checked, marks the artist as fictional. >>> >>> Ticket: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-4977 >>> This RFC will expire on 7/13. >> >> +1, I like it. Will need to be a schema change, though… > > I thought I stipulated that in the ticket... > Did it not go through? It did :) One doubt I see is whether adding "Fictional Person" and "Fictional Group" types instead wouldn't have the same effect without a schema change. -- -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 02:25:15AM +0300, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote: > One doubt I see is whether adding "Fictional Person" and "Fictional > Group" types instead wouldn't have the same effect without a schema > change. Hmm, I like the "fictional" attribute a lot more, because it is orthogonal to all current types. E.g. we can also have "fictional other", in contrast to "non-fictional other" (e.g. a company as artist). The issue is not so pressing that we can't wait for the next schema change I think. So +1 from me also, that way we can finally merge http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Fictitious_Artist into the database. Johannes _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style <at> lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 2:34 AM, Johannes Weißl <jargon@...> wrote: > On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 02:25:15AM +0300, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote: >> One doubt I see is whether adding "Fictional Person" and "Fictional >> Group" types instead wouldn't have the same effect without a schema >> change. > > Hmm, I like the "fictional" attribute a lot more, because it is > orthogonal to all current types. E.g. we can also have "fictional > other", in contrast to "non-fictional other" (e.g. a company as artist). > > The issue is not so pressing that we can't wait for the next schema > change I think. > > So +1 from me also, that way we can finally merge > http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Fictitious_Artist into the database. > > > Johannes > > _______________________________________________ > MusicBrainz-style mailing list > MusicBrainz-style@... > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style I've added an actual STYLE ticket for this in http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-133 :) -- -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Fri, 2012-07-06 at 17:43 -0500, Rachel Dwight wrote: > I propose that there be a check box on the "Add/Edit Artist" screen that if checked, marks the artist as fictional. > > Ticket: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-4977 > This RFC will expire on 7/13. I like having the fictionalness of an artist being an attribute. Right now, I am setting fictional artists (and I deal with a lot of them...) as type other, because they are not real People. Having an orthagonal fictional checkbox lets me have Fictional People and Fictional Groups! It's a pity that this change will have to wait for a schema change, but I like it better than my original thought of having a separate artist type - e.g. "Character" - for a fictional artist. +1 -- -- Calvin Walton <calvin.walton@...>
Rachel Dwight wrote: > I propose that there be a check box on the "Add/Edit Artist" screen that > if checked, marks the artist as fictional. Why not use tags to communicate it like the "bogus artist" tag? -- -- http://www.interface1.net
On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Staffan Vilcans <liftarn@...> wrote: > > Rachel Dwight wrote: >> I propose that there be a check box on the "Add/Edit Artist" screen that >> if checked, marks the artist as fictional. > > Why not use tags to communicate it like the "bogus artist" tag? I'd say that because while bogus artist is an info that in theory we don't want to have permanently anyway (since if the artist is bogus it should end up being removed at some point) this is - and tags are a bit messy for machine-readability too, very easy for someone to make a typo or whatever and then nobody else can correct them. > -- > http://www.interface1.net > > > _______________________________________________ > MusicBrainz-style mailing list > MusicBrainz-style@... > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren skrev: > I'd say that because while bogus artist is an info that in theory we > don't want to have permanently anyway Then why should we have an attribute for them? -- -- http://www.interface1.net _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style <at> lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Staffan, you seem to be confused. Fictional artists aren't bogus artists.
Also, +1 to proposal
Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren skrev:Then why should we have an attribute for them?
> I'd say that because while bogus artist is an info that in theory we
> don't want to have permanently anyway
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Duke Yin skrev: > Staffan, you seem to be confused. Fictional artists aren't bogus artists. Well, what is a fictional artist and what is a bogus artist is not very clear. Some are simply performance name like Dirk McQuickly (Eric Idle) of The Rutles. Some are unknown studio musicians (like The Archies). Some are actuall bogus artists like Pinocchio (the puppet, not the Swedish techno/trance act) and should be changed to the soundtrack composer. -- -- http://www.interface1.net
On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Staffan Vilcans <liftarn@...> wrote: > > Duke Yin skrev: >> Staffan, you seem to be confused. Fictional artists aren't bogus artists. > > Well, what is a fictional artist and what is a bogus artist is not very > clear. > Some are simply performance name like Dirk McQuickly (Eric Idle) of The > Rutles. Some are unknown studio musicians (like The Archies). Some are > actuall bogus artists like Pinocchio (the puppet, not the Swedish > techno/trance act) and should be changed to the soundtrack composer. > > -- > http://www.interface1.net > > > _______________________________________________ > MusicBrainz-style mailing list > MusicBrainz-style@... > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style This is ready for RFV :) -- -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 8:52 AM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren <reosarevok@...> wrote: > On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Staffan Vilcans <liftarn@...> wrote: >> >> Duke Yin skrev: >>> Staffan, you seem to be confused. Fictional artists aren't bogus artists. >> >> Well, what is a fictional artist and what is a bogus artist is not very >> clear. >> Some are simply performance name like Dirk McQuickly (Eric Idle) of The >> Rutles. Some are unknown studio musicians (like The Archies). Some are >> actuall bogus artists like Pinocchio (the puppet, not the Swedish >> techno/trance act) and should be changed to the soundtrack composer. >> >> -- >> http://www.interface1.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> MusicBrainz-style mailing list >> MusicBrainz-style@... >> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style > > > This is ready for RFV :) > > -- > Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren Hmm, actually, I just was reminded at the moment this is not defining what a fictional artist *is*. We do have some vague definition on http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Fictitious_Artist but it'd be good to get one that is a bit more precise so people know when to use this. -- -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
> Hmm, actually, I just was reminded at the moment this is not defining > what a fictional artist *is*. We do have some vague definition on > http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Fictitious_Artist but it'd be good to get > one that is a bit more precise so people know when to use this. Hey, nobody wants to give a shot at a definition? :) -- -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Aug 3, 2012, at 2:54 AM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote: >> Hmm, actually, I just was reminded at the moment this is not defining >> what a fictional artist *is*. We do have some vague definition on >> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Fictitious_Artist but it'd be good to get >> one that is a bit more precise so people know when to use this. > > > Hey, nobody wants to give a shot at a definition? :) > > -- > Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren I'm glancing over it and I really don't see anything wrong with it as is. > _______________________________________________ > MusicBrainz-style mailing list > MusicBrainz-style@... > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
On 08/03/2012 04:12 AM, Rachel Dwight wrote: > On Aug 3, 2012, at 2:54 AM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote: > >>> Hmm, actually, I just was reminded at the moment this is not defining >>> what a fictional artist *is*. We do have some vague definition on >>> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Fictitious_Artist but it'd be good to get >>> one that is a bit more precise so people know when to use this. >> >> Hey, nobody wants to give a shot at a definition? :) >> >> -- >> Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren > I'm glancing over it and I really don't see anything wrong with it as is. > The first thing that jumps out at me is the term itself. It's more a matter of useage than dictionary-definitions I guess. "Fictitious" is generally used to describe a lie, hoax or fabrication, while "fictional" is generally used to describe characters and stories within a creative work. Alex / caller#6
On Fri, 2012-08-03 at 08:15 -0700, caller#6 wrote: > On 08/03/2012 04:12 AM, Rachel Dwight wrote: > > On Aug 3, 2012, at 2:54 AM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote: > > > >>> Hmm, actually, I just was reminded at the moment this is not defining > >>> what a fictional artist *is*. We do have some vague definition on > >>> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Fictitious_Artist but it'd be good to get > >>> one that is a bit more precise so people know when to use this. > >> > >> Hey, nobody wants to give a shot at a definition? :) > >> > >> -- > >> Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren > > I'm glancing over it and I really don't see anything wrong with it as is. > > > > The first thing that jumps out at me is the term itself. It's more a > matter of useage than dictionary-definitions I guess. "Fictitious" is > generally used to describe a lie, hoax or fabrication, while "fictional" > is generally used to describe characters and stories within a creative work. I've written updated text for the page at http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Kepstin/Proposal:Fictional_Artist This would rename the page (and presumably leave a redirect), change all the instances of "Fictitious" to "Fictional", and correct the relationship that should be used to link the person to the character - the "Voice Actor Relationship Type" should be used. Once the Fictional type is set correctly on all the artists in the list on the page, presumably the list should be removed. Any objections to my proposed wording? I'd like this to go to RFV at some point :) -- -- Calvin Walton <calvin.walton <at> kepstin.ca> _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style <at> lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
On Aug 15, 2012, at 3:13 PM, Calvin Walton wrote: > On Fri, 2012-08-03 at 08:15 -0700, caller#6 wrote: >> On 08/03/2012 04:12 AM, Rachel Dwight wrote: >>> On Aug 3, 2012, at 2:54 AM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote: >>> >>>>> Hmm, actually, I just was reminded at the moment this is not defining >>>>> what a fictional artist *is*. We do have some vague definition on >>>>> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Fictitious_Artist but it'd be good to get >>>>> one that is a bit more precise so people know when to use this. >>>> >>>> Hey, nobody wants to give a shot at a definition? :) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren >>> I'm glancing over it and I really don't see anything wrong with it as is. >>> >> >> The first thing that jumps out at me is the term itself. It's more a >> matter of useage than dictionary-definitions I guess. "Fictitious" is >> generally used to describe a lie, hoax or fabrication, while "fictional" >> is generally used to describe characters and stories within a creative work. > > I've written updated text for the page at > http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Kepstin/Proposal:Fictional_Artist > This would rename the page (and presumably leave a redirect), change all > the instances of "Fictitious" to "Fictional", and correct the > relationship that should be used to link the person to the character - > the "Voice Actor Relationship Type" should be used. > > Once the Fictional type is set correctly on all the artists in the list > on the page, presumably the list should be removed. > > Any objections to my proposed wording? I'd like this to go to RFV at > some point :) > > -- > Calvin Walton <calvin.walton@...> > No objections here. > _______________________________________________ > MusicBrainz-style mailing list > MusicBrainz-style@... > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
I would like it clarified what kind of information we want to store for fictional artists. As an example, currently Mylene Jenius, http://musicbrainz.org/artist/9fed5efb-6c1a-48e6-a036-8a31240d5358 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mylene_Flare_Jenius is said to be born in 2031 in Musicbrainz, because the fictional character is. I think we shouldn't store that fictional birth year, but instead when the fictional character was created. If that is so, does that go for nationality as well? A fictional Scotsman created in the United States should have country US? But their fictional gender is OK?
On 08/15/2012 04:41 PM, Per Starbäck wrote: > I would like it clarified what kind of information we want to store > for fictional artists. As an example, currently > Mylene Jenius, > > http://musicbrainz.org/artist/9fed5efb-6c1a-48e6-a036-8a31240d5358 > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mylene_Flare_Jenius > > is said to be born in 2031 in Musicbrainz, because the fictional > character is. I think we shouldn't store that fictional birth year, > but instead when the fictional character was created. I think we *should* store that fictional birth year.
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On Aug 15, 2012, at 5:44 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: > On 08/15/2012 04:41 PM, Per Starbäck wrote: >> I would like it clarified what kind of information we want to store >> for fictional artists. As an example, currently >> Mylene Jenius, >> >> http://musicbrainz.org/artist/9fed5efb-6c1a-48e6-a036-8a31240d5358 >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mylene_Flare_Jenius >> >> is said to be born in 2031 in Musicbrainz, because the fictional >> character is. I think we shouldn't store that fictional birth year, >> but instead when the fictional character was created. > > I think we *should* store that fictional birth year. Right, considering there are real artists who falsify their birth years so as to claim to be from the distant past or future (e.g. Gackt, who claimed to have been born in the year 1540 before fans exposed him as having been born in 1973). > _______________________________________________ > MusicBrainz-style mailing list > MusicBrainz-style@... > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
On Wed, 2012-08-15 at 23:41 +0200, Per Starbäck wrote: > I would like it clarified what kind of information we want to store > for fictional artists. As an example, currently > Mylene Jenius, > > http://musicbrainz.org/artist/9fed5efb-6c1a-48e6-a036-8a31240d5358 > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mylene_Flare_Jenius > > is said to be born in 2031 in Musicbrainz, because the fictional > character is. I think we shouldn't store that fictional birth year, > but instead when the fictional character was created. If that is so, > does that go for nationality as well? > A fictional Scotsman created in the United States should have country > US? But their fictional gender is OK? For Country, I've been using the country where the character was created/popularized. I think that similarly setting the start date of the character to the date when the character was created in real life would be the best option. (Fictional characters never end, I guess...) If fictional attributes of the character - their birth year, nationality, planetary allegiance, blood type, age, etc. is interesting, it should be put into the annotation. There are other databases for tracking this sort of thing; I don't think it belongs in MusicBrainz. -- -- Calvin Walton <calvin.walton <at> kepstin.ca> _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style <at> lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
On Aug 15, 2012, at 7:09 PM, Calvin Walton wrote: > On Wed, 2012-08-15 at 23:41 +0200, Per Starbäck wrote: >> I would like it clarified what kind of information we want to store >> for fictional artists. As an example, currently >> Mylene Jenius, >> >> http://musicbrainz.org/artist/9fed5efb-6c1a-48e6-a036-8a31240d5358 >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mylene_Flare_Jenius >> >> is said to be born in 2031 in Musicbrainz, because the fictional >> character is. I think we shouldn't store that fictional birth year, >> but instead when the fictional character was created. If that is so, >> does that go for nationality as well? >> A fictional Scotsman created in the United States should have country >> US? But their fictional gender is OK? > > For Country, I've been using the country where the character was > created/popularized. I think that similarly setting the start date of > the character to the date when the character was created in real life > would be the best option. (Fictional characters never end, I guess...) > > If fictional attributes of the character - their birth year, > nationality, planetary allegiance, blood type, age, etc. is interesting, > it should be put into the annotation. There are other databases for > tracking this sort of thing; I don't think it belongs in MusicBrainz. > > -- > Calvin Walton <calvin.walton@...> > I only use the country field in cases where the character exists in a universe set in a real country (e.g. an anime character being from Japan or Barbie living in California). I just leave the field blank if the character is from a fictional country, planet, etc. or if the locale is never specified (except where it's obviously meant to look like one country or another). All in all, I avoid adding fictional artists for this and other reasons (most importantly the lack of support that I made this ticket to address). I normally use the actor/actress' name in the artist field and add the character's name as an artist credit. > _______________________________________________ > MusicBrainz-style mailing list > MusicBrainz-style@... > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Rachel Dwight wrote > > On Aug 15, 2012, at 7:09 PM, Calvin Walton wrote: > All in all, I avoid adding fictional artists for this and other reasons > (most importantly the lack of support that I made this ticket to address). > I normally use the actor/actress' name in the artist field and add the > character's name as an artist credit. > I don’t know maybe there are some short-comings to this but I like this way (voiceactor/seiyuu as artist, character name as AC). The only reason why I still did not use it is that the only fictional characters I’ve edited were before AC existed. But I would surely do them this way now with AC. Except if there is something special like what this topic asks for. ----- mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts black hole : * <at> jetable.org (stuff sent there won’t reach anyone) crap® : jesus2099, Ti, Tristan, patate12, saucisson7, so6on, so6on7, TRISTANVS, M. PATATE, j2-, J2♥, Trí Tân, 鳥, トリ29, TD., iCAT, … -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Add-fictional-attribute-to-artists-tp4637314p4639854.html Sent from the MusicBrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style <at> lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
jesus2099 wrote > > > Rachel Dwight wrote >> >> On Aug 15, 2012, at 7:09 PM, Calvin Walton wrote: >> All in all, I avoid adding fictional artists for this and other reasons >> (most importantly the lack of support that I made this ticket to >> address). I normally use the actor/actress' name in the artist field and >> add the character's name as an artist credit. >> > > I don’t know maybe there are some short-comings to this but I like this > way (voiceactor/seiyuu as artist, character name as AC). > The only reason why I still did not use it is that the only fictional > characters I’ve edited were before AC existed. > But I would surely do them this way now with AC. Except if there is > something special like what this topic asks for. > Oh yes I’m self replying myself. After reading my message I see one shortcoming of this already. Fictionnal groups like 帝国歌劇団 (http://musicbrainz.org/artist/25aaba3a-5249-4d7c-97ab-5de970531662). We can’t have an AC with that, as it is a fictional group of fictional persons. :) ----- mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts black hole : * <at> jetable.org (stuff sent there won’t reach anyone) crap® : jesus2099, Ti, Tristan, patate12, saucisson7, so6on, so6on7, TRISTANVS, M. PATATE, j2-, J2♥, Trí Tân, 鳥, トリ29, TD., iCAT, … -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Add-fictional-attribute-to-artists-tp4637314p4639856.html Sent from the MusicBrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style <at> lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
This has been mentioned again on the forums - reviving this to see if people agree on something that can be RFC/V'd (since I barely remember if there was an agreement).
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This has been mentioned again on the forums - reviving this to see if people agree on something that can be RFC/V'd (since I barely remember if there was an agreement).Maybe this was mentioned already, but would this also apply to "performance names" that have their own fictional history? (Dr. Octagon, or things like the dozen different furries in http://lapfox.bandcamp.com/ )
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Rachel Dwight skrev: > I don't remember there being any consensus. I have the last message on > this subject on the right-hand side of the screen right now and it dates > back to August 16. Nothing appears decided upon. No, the sugegstion was very unclear regarding if it was about bogus artist (and they should be corrected) or performance names. -- -- http://www.interface1.net
Rachel Dwight skrev:No, the sugegstion was very unclear regarding if it was about bogus artist
> I don't remember there being any consensus. I have the last message on
> this subject on the right-hand side of the screen right now and it dates
> back to August 16. Nothing appears decided upon.
(and they should be corrected) or performance names.
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Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren skrev: > What's a bogus artist for you in this context? (A label? :D) A fictional artist can be several different types. Examples are * Ron Nasty (of The Rutles). That is a character played by Neil Innes * Snoop Dogg is a performance name of Calvin Broadus * Sailor Moon is a fictional character. Voiced by a real person, but not in the sense of the two above. * The Cast of Cheers is not an artist, but it consists of actual persons * Nintendo is a label and not an artist The two top ones are actual artists, the rest are bogus. -- -- http://www.interface1.net _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style <at> lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
What about Hatsune Miku? -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. Staffan Vilcans <liftarn <at> interface1.net> wrote: > >Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren skrev: > >> What's a bogus artist for you in this context? (A label? :D) > >A fictional artist can be several different types. Examples are >* Ron Nasty (of The Rutles). That is a character played by Neil Innes >* Snoop Dogg is a performance name of Calvin Broadus >* Sailor Moon is a fictional character. Voiced by a real person, but >not >in the sense of the two above. >* The Cast of Cheers is not an artist, but it consists of actual >persons >* Nintendo is a label and not an artist > >The two top ones are actual artists, the rest are bogus. > >-- >http://www.interface1.net > > >_______________________________________________ >MusicBrainz-style mailing list >MusicBrainz-style <at> lists.musicbrainz.org >http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Profpatsch skrev: > What about Hatsune Miku? That is a singing synthesizer application so it's an artist in the same way as a Fender Stratocaster or a Korg M1, i.e. not at all. -- -- http://www.interface1.net
There are albums credited to her as main artist. What to do about them? -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. Staffan Vilcans <liftarn@...> wrote: > >Profpatsch skrev: > >> What about Hatsune Miku? > >That is a singing synthesizer application so it's an artist in the same >way as a Fender Stratocaster or a Korg M1, i.e. not at all.
Staffan Vilcans wrote > A fictional artist can be several different types. Examples are > * Ron Nasty (of The Rutles). That is a character played by Neil Innes > * Snoop Dogg is a performance name of Calvin Broadus > * Sailor Moon is a fictional character. Voiced by a real person, but not > in the sense of the two above. > * The Cast of Cheers is not an artist, but it consists of actual persons > * Nintendo is a label and not an artist > > The two top ones are actual artists, the rest are bogus. I think that one sort fictitious performers was not mentioned. They are usually connected to classical music. Here are overlapping sub-types I am aware of: - to avoid paying royalties - to create "marketing" name for various (usually low budget) releases - when crediting ad-hoc orchestras - e.g. Columbia Symphony Orchestra See: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Budget_recordings_of_Alfred_Scholz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Symphony_Orchestra Should not we differentiate fictitious/fictional artists which were created to look like real artists from "characters"? ----- Václav Brožík / pabouk -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Add-fictional-attribute-to-artists-tp4637314p4645256.html Sent from the MusicBrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style <at> lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
On Thu, 2012-11-22 at 10:52 +0100, Staffan Vilcans wrote: > Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren skrev: > > > What's a bogus artist for you in this context? (A label? :D) > > A fictional artist can be several different types. Examples are > * Ron Nasty (of The Rutles). That is a character played by Neil Innes > * Snoop Dogg is a performance name of Calvin Broadus This type in particular: > * Sailor Moon is a fictional character. Voiced by a real person, but not > in the sense of the two above. is the one that I would like to have a fictional artist indicator (attribute? type?) for. I work with a *lot* of Japanese anime commercial music, and we have a fairly large number of these artists in use in order to correctly credit the releases. There's also a few cases of fictional groups of fictional characters. > * The Cast of Cheers is not an artist, but it consists of actual persons > * Nintendo is a label and not an artist > > The two top ones are actual artists, the rest are bogus. -- -- Calvin Walton <calvin.walton <at> kepstin.ca> _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style <at> lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
I have to admit, I hate the term ?bogus?. It sounds like the artist is doing something wrong/making something up/lying about his identity. We shouldn?t judge artists as taggers. Think about Dave Remmler aka Renard. He has over a dozen anthro artists with a background that he uses to classify his work in a way, which is really intriguing and not bad at all. http://musicbrainz.org/artist/e036278b-974c-4841-a025-07d4894968d4/relationships On 11/22/2012 10:52 AM, Staffan Vilcans wrote: > > Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren skrev: > >> What's a bogus artist for you in this context? (A label? :D) > > A fictional artist can be several different types. Examples are * > Ron Nasty (of The Rutles). That is a character played by Neil > Innes * Snoop Dogg is a performance name of Calvin Broadus * Sailor > Moon is a fictional character. Voiced by a real person, but not in > the sense of the two above. * The Cast of Cheers is not an artist, > but it consists of actual persons * Nintendo is a label and not an > artist > > The two top ones are actual artists, the rest are bogus. >
On Nov 25, 2012, at 9:33 PM, Alex Mauer <hawke@...> wrote: > On 11/25/2012 02:33 PM, Profpatsch wrote: >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> I have to admit, I hate the term ?bogus?. It sounds like the artist is >> doing something wrong/making something up/lying about his identity. > > +1 Right. There are some artists who knowingly falsify details about themselves, such as Gackt, who up until 2009 claimed he was born in the year 1540, or David Bowie, who performed as the character Ziggy Stardust. Both appear on official, legitimate releases under those names and details, but that doesn't make either of them bogus. To me a bogus artist is like a fan-made name for a collective of unknown artists; for example on some early pirated/bootlegged releases of the first few Japanese Pokémon soundtracks the artist was listed simply as "Pokémon." This is in fact bogus because nowhere on the original releases was the name "Pokémon" used to identify an artist. > > _______________________________________________ > MusicBrainz-style mailing list > MusicBrainz-style@... > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Profpatsch skrev: > I have to admit, I hate the term ?bogus?. It sounds like the artist is > doing something wrong/making something up/lying about his identity. The term "bogus" is (at least by me) used for non-artist, i.e. bogus artist. Fake artists that don't actually exist, but is just some kind of placeholder just as [unknown] or [soundtrack]. -- -- http://www.interface1.net
Profpatsch skrev:The term "bogus" is (at least by me) used for non-artist, i.e. bogus
> I have to admit, I hate the term ?bogus?. It sounds like the artist is
> doing something wrong/making something up/lying about his identity.
artist. Fake artists that don't actually exist, but is just some kind of
placeholder just as [unknown] or [soundtrack].
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Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren skrev: > Yeah, but I doubt most people agree with, say, Hatsune Miku being > semantically equivalent to stuff like [unknown] and [soundtrack] :) That is true. Hatsune Miku is a piece of software and is thus just as bogus as using Flinger ( http://www.cslu.ogi.edu/tts/flinger/ ) as a placeholder artist. -- -- http://www.interface1.net _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style <at> lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Staffan, I don't agree with your defining Hatsune Miku as "bogus" and ask that you read the definition of Fictional Artist at http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Fictitious_Artist
Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren skrev:
> Yeah, but I doubt most people agree with, say, Hatsune Miku beingThat is true. Hatsune Miku is a piece of software and is thus just as
> semantically equivalent to stuff like [unknown] and [soundtrack] :)
bogus as using Flinger ( http://www.cslu.ogi.edu/tts/flinger/ ) as a
placeholder artist.
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Soundtrack Style is unofficial
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+1 for the first part, I don’t agree with the second part, though. Fictional Artists should be in the Artist field if the recording is released under this name. The connection to the real person is done via artist relationship. Take this artist for example, it would be false to not credit different songs to his different aliases: http://musicbrainz.org/artist/a42dfc4e-75e3-4df5-8e38-c7e479f9e88c/relationships One problem I can see with Hatsune Miku: There have been several people releasing tracks under the fictional artist Hatsune Miku. I guess we should credit them as instumentalists? Vocalists? Some kind of producers? ~Profpatsch On 11/26/2012 12:06 PM, Duke Yin wrote: > Staffan, I don't agree with your defining Hatsune Miku as "bogus" > and ask that you read the definition of Fictional Artist at > http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Fictitious_Artist > > Fictional Artists have discographic relevance and are not the same > as Bogus Artists which you define as "placeholder" artists that > ought to be merged into [unknown] or changed to composers (and > that's wrong too by the way, Soundtrack Style is unofficial and if > the tracklist clearly credits the track to a "Fictional" singer or > real performer, that singer should get the artist credit). > Fictional Artists (the ones that editors such Calvin frequently > deal with) aren't placeholders. > > I would also like to pre-emptively state that I don't agree with > using Fictional Artists as the Artist Credit for a real singer or > real composer. Unless I'm mistaken, it's not possible to search > for an Artist Credit, so it would then become impossible to > retrieve a discography for Fictional Artists. > > On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 2:33 AM, Staffan Vilcans > <liftarn@... <mailto:liftarn@...>> wrote: > > > Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren skrev: > >> Yeah, but I doubt most people agree with, say, Hatsune Miku >> being semantically equivalent to stuff like [unknown] and >> [soundtrack] :) > > That is true. Hatsune Miku is a piece of software and is thus just > as bogus as using Flinger ( http://www.cslu.ogi.edu/tts/flinger/ ) > as a placeholder artist. > > -- http://www.interface1.net > > > _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-style > mailing list MusicBrainz-style@... > <mailto:MusicBrainz-style@...> > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style > > > > > _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-style > mailing list MusicBrainz-style@... > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style >
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----+1 for the first part, I don’t agree with the second part, though.
Hash: SHA1
Fictional Artists should be in the Artist field if the recording is
released under this name.
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On Mon, 2012-11-26 at 13:47 +0100, Profpatsch wrote: > +1 for the first part, I don’t agree with the second part, though. > Fictional Artists should be in the Artist field if the recording is > released under this name. > The connection to the real person is done via artist relationship. > Take this artist for example, it would be false to not credit > different songs to his different aliases: > http://musicbrainz.org/artist/a42dfc4e-75e3-4df5-8e38-c7e479f9e88c/relationships > > One problem I can see with Hatsune Miku: > There have been several people releasing tracks under the fictional > artist Hatsune Miku. I guess we should credit them as instumentalists? > Vocalists? Some kind of producers? The people releasing these tracks typically go by the title of 'Producer', but are often not explicitly credited as such. However, I've found that most of the tracks that you'll see on releases are actually credited in the form "Producer feat. Hatsune Miku" or even just the producer alone; the tracks with only "Hatsune Miku" are less common, but still seen occasionally. -- -- Calvin Walton <calvin.walton <at> kepstin.ca> _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style <at> lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Correct. The "P" at the end of their artist names stands for "Producer." I've been in on the Vocaloid fandom since late 2007/early 2008, so I should know. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 28, 2012, at 2:16 PM, Calvin Walton <calvin.walton <at> kepstin.ca> wrote: > On Mon, 2012-11-26 at 13:47 +0100, Profpatsch wrote: >> +1 for the first part, I don’t agree with the second part, though. >> Fictional Artists should be in the Artist field if the recording is >> released under this name. >> The connection to the real person is done via artist relationship. >> Take this artist for example, it would be false to not credit >> different songs to his different aliases: >> http://musicbrainz.org/artist/a42dfc4e-75e3-4df5-8e38-c7e479f9e88c/relationships >> >> One problem I can see with Hatsune Miku: >> There have been several people releasing tracks under the fictional >> artist Hatsune Miku. I guess we should credit them as instumentalists? >> Vocalists? Some kind of producers? > > The people releasing these tracks typically go by the title of > 'Producer', but are often not explicitly credited as such. However, I've > found that most of the tracks that you'll see on releases are actually > credited in the form > "Producer feat. Hatsune Miku" > or even just the producer alone; the tracks with only "Hatsune Miku" are > less common, but still seen occasionally. > > -- > Calvin Walton <calvin.walton <at> kepstin.ca> > > > _______________________________________________ > MusicBrainz-style mailing list > MusicBrainz-style <at> lists.musicbrainz.org > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style <at> lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Calvin Walton skrev: > The people releasing these tracks typically go by the title of > 'Producer', but are often not explicitly credited as such. However, I've > found that most of the tracks that you'll see on releases are actually > credited in the form > "Producer feat. Hatsune Miku" > or even just the producer alone; the tracks with only "Hatsune Miku" are > less common, but still seen occasionally. I have a CD where one of the tracks has vocals credited to "Roland" (what model is unknown). Perhaps I should create that artist... -- -- http://www.interface1.net
On Nov 29, 2012, at 2:24 AM, Staffan Vilcans <liftarn@...> wrote: > > Calvin Walton skrev: > >> The people releasing these tracks typically go by the title of >> 'Producer', but are often not explicitly credited as such. However, I've >> found that most of the tracks that you'll see on releases are actually >> credited in the form >> "Producer feat. Hatsune Miku" >> or even just the producer alone; the tracks with only "Hatsune Miku" are >> less common, but still seen occasionally. > > I have a CD where one of the tracks has vocals credited to "Roland" (what > model is unknown). Perhaps I should create that artist... > > -- > http://www.interface1.net > I am assuming this is a Vocaloid CD? > _______________________________________________ > MusicBrainz-style mailing list > MusicBrainz-style@... > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Rachel Dwight skrev: >> I have a CD where one of the tracks has vocals credited to "Roland" >> (what model is unknown). Perhaps I should create that artist... > I am assuming this is a Vocaloid CD? No, it predates that with quite some years. It's http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/8098828b-5808-3af2-8fb5-1a5439697d85 The Roland is of course http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Corporation -- -- http://www.interface1.net
Then feel free to create a performed-vocals relatinoship to an Other-type artist "Roland". I don't see the problem, or how you intend to relate this argument to vocaloids (which in most cases clearly get the Artist Credit, not just a performer relationship)
Rachel Dwight skrev:
>> I have a CD where one of the tracks has vocals credited to "Roland"
>> (what model is unknown). Perhaps I should create that artist...
> I am assuming this is a Vocaloid CD?No, it predates that with quite some years. It's
http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/8098828b-5808-3af2-8fb5-1a5439697d85
The Roland is of course http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Corporation
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On Nov 29, 2012, at 2:30 AM, Staffan Vilcans <liftarn@...> wrote: > > Rachel Dwight skrev: > >>> I have a CD where one of the tracks has vocals credited to "Roland" >>> (what model is unknown). Perhaps I should create that artist... > >> I am assuming this is a Vocaloid CD? > > No, it predates that with quite some years. It's > http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/8098828b-5808-3af2-8fb5-1a5439697d85 > The Roland is of course http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Corporation > > -- > http://www.interface1.net > I'm assuming the product used is a vocoder. I did some digging and found Roland makes such devices. Is it possible it's the keyboardist singing through one? > _______________________________________________ > MusicBrainz-style mailing list > MusicBrainz-style@... > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Rachel Dwight skrev: >> No, it predates that with quite some years. It's >> http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/8098828b-5808-3af2-8fb5-1a5439697d85 >> The Roland is of course http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Corporation > I'm assuming the product used is a vocoder. I did some digging and found > Roland makes such devices. Is it possible it's the keyboardist singing > through one? As far as I can tell there is no vocoder used and no words can be heard. I think they simply refer to the sound of the keyboard itself. It's has a floating sounds. A bit like someone singing. -- -- http://www.interface1.net
Yin Izanami wrote > Fictional Artists have discographic relevance and are not the same as > Bogus > Artists which you define as "placeholder" artists that ought to be merged > into [unknown] or changed to composers (and that's wrong too by the way, > Soundtrack Style is unofficial and if the tracklist clearly credits the > track to a "Fictional" singer or real performer, that singer should get > the > artist credit). Fictional Artists (the ones that editors such Calvin > frequently deal with) aren't placeholders. > > I would also like to pre-emptively state that I don't agree with using > Fictional Artists as the Artist Credit for a real singer or real composer. > Unless I'm mistaken, it's not possible to search for an Artist Credit, so > it would then become impossible to retrieve a discography for Fictional > Artists. I completely agree here. Fictional artists credited on multiple albums are certainly relevant for discography and they should be represented by their own object in the database not just by "free text" artist credits. ----- Václav Brožík / pabouk -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Add-fictional-attribute-to-artists-tp4637314p4645347.html Sent from the MusicBrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style <at> lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
On 08/15/2012 05:09 PM, Calvin Walton wrote: > On Wed, 2012-08-15 at 23:41 +0200, Per Starbäck wrote: >> I would like it clarified what kind of information we want to store >> for fictional artists....I think we shouldn't store that fictional birth year, >> but instead when the fictional character was created. If that is so, >> does that go for nationality as well? > For Country, I've been using the country where the character was > created/popularized. I think that similarly setting the start date of > the character to the date when the character was created in real life > would be the best option. (Fictional characters never end, I guess...) > > If fictional attributes of the character - their birth year, > nationality, planetary allegiance, blood type, age, etc. is interesting, > it should be put into the annotation. There are other databases for > tracking this sort of thing; I don't think it belongs in MusicBrainz. > +1 I don't think we should be using the same fields for fictional and factual data (other than names). Wikipedia uses a "Fictional Character Biography" section to make the distinction (even more) clear. I'd like MusicBrainz to do something similar (in the annotation, or wherever) clearly marking any fictional data as such. Alex / caller#6 _______________________________________________ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style <at> lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
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