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Magnolia Forums (on behalf of Gr?gory Joseph | 10 Feb 17:23

[magnolia-dev] Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

Hey peeps,

Magnolia developers have been very busy in the last few months putting a new page editing UI together for
4.5. The green bars that we had a love/hate relationship with (don't we all?) have been tamed a little.

We wanted to first write up some of the ideas and intentions behind these changes - those which have been
included in this version that is, keeping in mind the grand scheme of things, where this version is a
stepping stone towards 5.0 - but we figured we might as well just drop it here and now. I'm sure y'all will
have interesting feedback, and the developer team will read and react to your suggestions and questions
as they come.

I'm going to try and not say *too much* about what has changed and what hasn't, but everyone would be grateful
if you took a few minutes of your time to try a snapshot out. In particular, this one bundle here is actually
in a "known state" - we know it works, we know it still has a lot of polishing to do, but we also think this is the
right time to integrate some of your feedback.

You can grab it here: http://hudson.magnolia-cms.com/job/magnolia-bundle_trunk/1925/info.magnolia$magnolia-tomcat-bundle/artifact/info.magnolia/magnolia-tomcat-bundle/4.5-20120209.173147-466/magnolia-4.5-SNAPSHOT-tomcat-bundle.zip

Just a hint (I've just been bitten myself) - to navigate within your site, you might need to switch to preview mode.

In particular, we'd like to hear what you think about the new "experience" of editing a page. Put yourself in
an editor's shoes and tell us what you think, comparing to your 4.4 or prior experience.

I suggest we simply use this thread for feedback, but if you feel more comfortable in private, feel free to
email me at greg at magnolia-cms dot com.

Cheers !

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Magnolia Forums (on behalf of Gr?gory Joseph | 10 Feb 19:14

[magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

Oh, in case you weren't sure: grab the zip linked above. Unzip somewhere you feel comfortable with, and
using a terminal, go to
<wherever-you-installed-it>/magnolia-4.5-SNAPSHOT/apache-tomcat-6.0.32/bin/ -- then use
startup.sh or .bat depending on your os. Actually, just double-clicking on the startup.bat should work
on Windows systems.

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Magnolia Forums (on behalf of Matt Dertinger | 13 Feb 02:32

[magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

Hi,

As you requested, here are my initial thoughts:

1. I have to admit, it took me a moment to figure out that I had to click on an area to get the edit bars to show up. 
Once I realized that, I really liked it.  Something that may help, would be to add hover & focus states to the
editable regions, both states could just add an outline property around the component.  I think this might
also help to distinguish between what regions are editable vs. those that aren't. For instance, the Table
of Contents on the Large Article page isn't editable, hence, it wouldn't get the hover & focus states.
2. I really like the 'New Component' placeholder. One thing I'd suggest would be to make the entire 'New
Component' placeholder clickable, instead of just the 'Add' button.
3. The '+' to add another tab item to the Tabbed Teaser component may be easily missed.  Not sure I have a
recommendation for this.  For reference, see the Tabbed Teaser component at the bottom of /demo-project/multimedia.html
4. I really like the other placeholder areas :)
5. I really like that the title of each component is shown in the edit bars (i.e. Internal Page Teaser)

Ok, that's what I have for now, I'll try to add some more to this list as I work with it more.  I think content
authors are really going to like these changes!  Thanks for the awesome work! :)

Cheers,
Matt

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Andreas Weder | 13 Feb 18:20

Re: [magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

Hi Matt,

thanks a lot for your feedback. You'll find my remarks below.

> As you requested, here are my initial thoughts:
> 
> 1. I have to admit, it took me a moment to figure out that I had to click on an area to get the edit bars to show up. 
Once I realized that, I really liked it.  Something that may help, would be to add hover & focus states to the
editable regions, both states could just add an outline property around the component.  I think this might
also help to distinguish between what regions are editable vs. those that aren't. For instance, the Table
of Contents on the Large Article page isn't editable, hence, it wouldn't get the hover & focus states.

What you experienced is also what our user tests have shown. One of the last things we did before testing this
snapshot and releasing it for you to comment on, was to turn off area bars on the top-level. The tests have
now shown that this change was too aggressive. Our users felt somewhat lost having to edit a page without
any bars at all. And, clearly, we do not want that editors have to click on every visible component in order
to find out what is editable and what not.

What we plan to implement 4.5 is:
- to show top-level area bars if you enter a page.
- maintain both the position and the selection state of components during page reloads.

The latter should properly bring you back to where you where when you started your last edit and right before
the page reload.

The reason why I do not want to introduce hover states currently is two-fold. For once, I believe they won't
solve the problem: you still have to move the mouse over the entire page to detect what's editable or not. I
prefer to have a clear "call to action", so to say, in the form of a visible bar. In fact, that's also what some
users have suggested.
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Andreas Weder | 13 Feb 18:39

Re: [magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

The results and main findings, btw, of those user tests I mentioned in my reply to Matt's feedback, can be
found here:

http://wiki.magnolia-cms.com/display/UX/User+tests+on+Feb+10%2C+2010

Unfortunately, I can't make the recordings of this session widely available, sorry.

Cheers
Andreas

Am 13.02.2012 um 18:20 schrieb Andreas Weder <andreas.weder <at> magnolia-cms.com>:

> Hi Matt,
> 
> thanks a lot for your feedback. You'll find my remarks below.
> 
>> As you requested, here are my initial thoughts:
>> 
>> 1. I have to admit, it took me a moment to figure out that I had to click on an area to get the edit bars to show
up.  Once I realized that, I really liked it.  Something that may help, would be to add hover & focus states to
the editable regions, both states could just add an outline property around the component.  I think this
might also help to distinguish between what regions are editable vs. those that aren't. For instance, the
Table of Contents on the Large Article page isn't editable, hence, it wouldn't get the hover & focus states.
> 
> What you experienced is also what our user tests have shown. One of the last things we did before testing
this snapshot and releasing it for you to comment on, was to turn off area bars on the top-level. The tests
have now shown that this change was too aggressive. Our users felt somewhat lost having to edit a page
without any bars at all. And, clearly, we do not want that editors have to click on every visible component
in order to find out what is editable and what not.
>
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Unger, Richard | 14 Feb 13:18
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AW: [magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

Hi Andreas, hi Greg,

Thanks for the 4.5 sneak-preview. Nice!

My feedback would echo what has been sent so far: generally the concept of the areas and the new look of the
editor is very nice. The disappearing bars are IMHO not a good solution (more on this below). The different
preview-types (smartphone, tablet - though not working yet) are a nice addition. Some small bugs
obviously need working out.

The disappearing bars - I think this is bad for 3 reasons: 
- first, it confuses the editors. Not seeing what they can edit right away means they have to click
everywhere to discover editable content, or once they know the "page-bar-trick", they activate that,
begging the question why it wasn't activated in the first place.
- second, it makes editor's lives harder: whereas they used to be able to open the dialogs with 1 click, now
they need 2: activate the bars, then edit the content. I therefore also oppose showing only the area-bars
initially. Show it all, save the editors some clicks!
- third, while it works well in the STK's rather "rectilinear" layout, appearing and disappearing bars
will be difficult to accommodate in other, more "freeform" layouts. It will lead to the layout "jumping
around" as the bars are hidden and shown. Thus disappearing edit-controls will present additional
challenges to templaters working without the STK.

Generally speaking magnolia's page editor has to satisfy 2 requirements:
 1) to make as clear as possible to the editors what and how they can edit the content on the page.
 2) to present the editors with a view of the web-page as close to what the published version will look like as possible.

Finding a GUI that can meet both these goals is obviously a big challenge, as the requirements are somewhat
at odds with one another. So far magnolia has used what I would call a "2 modes" paradigm:
 - In "edit-mode", the bars were all visible, so the layout was somewhat "deformed", but editing was easy:
just click the edit button next to the content you want to change.
 - In "preview-mode", the bars all disappear, giving a view of the page that is usually 100% like the
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Andreas Weder | 14 Feb 17:04

Re: [magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

Hi Richard,

thanks for your feedback. Glad you like the changes in templating - I agree it's great to finally have proper
areas, because they make some things (e.g. optional content) much easier to handle. 

Am 14.02.2012 um 13:18 schrieb Unger, Richard:

> Thanks for the 4.5 sneak-preview. Nice!
> 
> My feedback would echo what has been sent so far: generally the concept of the areas and the new look of the
editor is very nice. The disappearing bars are IMHO not a good solution (more on this below). The different
preview-types (smartphone, tablet - though not working yet) are a nice addition. Some small bugs
obviously need working out.
> 
> The disappearing bars - I think this is bad for 3 reasons: 
> - first, it confuses the editors. Not seeing what they can edit right away means they have to click
everywhere to discover editable content, or once they know the "page-bar-trick", they activate that,
begging the question why it wasn't activated in the first place.
> - second, it makes editor's lives harder: whereas they used to be able to open the dialogs with 1 click, now
they need 2: activate the bars, then edit the content. I therefore also oppose showing only the area-bars
initially. Show it all, save the editors some clicks!
> - third, while it works well in the STK's rather "rectilinear" layout, appearing and disappearing bars
will be difficult to accommodate in other, more "freeform" layouts. It will lead to the layout "jumping
around" as the bars are hidden and shown. Thus disappearing edit-controls will present additional
challenges to templaters working without the STK.

I really think this is a matter of perspective. 

I don't think that the new editor confuses people more than the old one. On the contrary, actually. In our
tests, users were a lot more confused by the amount of bars visible at any time on a page. They welcomed the
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Magnolia Forums (on behalf of Matt Dertinger | 13 Feb 02:40

[magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

Hi,

Oh, I forgot to mention one item I did run into with the bundled webapp, when I clicked on the
[code]Properties[/code] button at the top of the home page, I got a runtime exception: [code]Unknown
control type: "dependenciesControl"[/code].  I'm guessing this is because the content dependencies
module isn't included in the bundle? 

Let me know if this is a known issue, or if you'd like me to open an issue in JIRA.

Cheers,
Matt

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Magnolia Forums (on behalf of Marvin Kerkhoff | 13 Feb 13:14

[magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

1. It would be realy great if you don't have to click on the Areas to Edit. If you can handle this with the hover
state you can click and navigate also in the edit mode. For the most customers the navigation insite edit
mode is an must beautiful way to easy edit a site. You don't need to hint this and i think the usability where
better. 

2. I don't like the bottom "Add Compontent" styling. It is whery strange because all other markers are in an
other styling. 

3. Is it possible to get some parameters like color="" in the bars. I think in a very green layout it is better
to have some blue lines or red for example. 

4. I think it where better when you have all bars visible in "movement"-Mode. Otherwise the double clicking
i need to move the element to another section is confusing. Please add a focus event and delete this click
events to visible this parts.

5. I like the Editarea Names like Base or Content but what i realy love is some additional colors for a few
areas and a darker color for the child areas. 

6. I don't understand that create Button on /magnoliaAuthor/demo-project/news-and-events.html ?!?

7. Is it possible to have some "move above" or "move under" triggers when i am in the Movement Mode. I don't
need that Add, Create or Delete Buttons in this Mode.

8. Some bars don't fit in the layout /magnoliaAuthor/demo-project/service/faq.html. Also in this area
the clickable editing is very confusing. 

9. I don't know when, which bar is visible and when it isn't. Please answer about the logic.

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Andreas Weder | 14 Feb 15:48

Re: [magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

Hi Marvin,

thanks for your feedback. Please see my comments below.

Am 13.02.2012 um 13:14 schrieb Magnolia Forums (on behalf of Marvin Kerkhoff):

> 1. It would be realy great if you don't have to click on the Areas to Edit. If you can handle this with the hover
state you can click and navigate also in the edit mode. For the most customers the navigation insite edit
mode is an must beautiful way to easy edit a site. You don't need to hint this and i think the usability where
better. 

We might introduce a hover state eventually, if we can resolve the issues that this brings (see my earlier
remarks in Matt's email). For 4.5, we wanted to stay true to the 4.4 family and felt that introducing an
entirely new way of navigating within page editing would be too much for a mere dot release, in particular
because we might have to change it again once we're clear on where 5.0 takes us.

> 
> 2. I don't like the bottom "Add Compontent" styling. It is whery strange because all other markers are in an
other styling. 

It does work very well, though, as our tests have shown. The dotted area is immediately recognized as
placeholder. We added a bar on top because else the placeholder would be considered part of the component
before. With the bar, the placeholder is clearly an equal among peers.

> 
> 3. Is it possible to get some parameters like color="" in the bars. I think in a very green layout it is better
to have some blue lines or red for example. 

You can always change the Css. The bars do have a slight gradient image in the background, however, to make
them stand out a bit more. But you can change this, if you desire so.
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Magnolia Forums (on behalf of Marvin Kerkhoff | 13 Feb 13:18

[magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

Is it possible to get some Buttons or Text like "This site is active" or "modified" or "not active" in the Main Bar?

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Magnolia Forums (on behalf of Edgar Vonk | 13 Feb 14:30

[magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

Good work! I agree with all comments made by Matt and Marvin. 

There seems to be a bug in the edit bars of the promos (e.g.
/magnoliaAuthor/demo-project/news-and-events.html) None or sometimes only the top teaser/promo
can be edited.

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Magnolia Forums (on behalf of Leo Lozes | 13 Feb 14:54

[magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

I also agree with all the comments of Matt & Marvin. 

Marvin, I think the create button appears when an area is empty, because first you have to create the area,
and THEN add components to it. 

After that, some thoughts after testing 15 min:

- When you open the page and the bars are not visible, it's specially hard to find that the meta-navigation is
in fact editable, and when you do find out, the style when you deploy the area is not really nice (I also have
to say that I don't really see how to improve this...) 
- Maybe a mode where all the darker green bars are visible (area ones) would be nice, so you can see all the
editable areas.

Anyway I think it's a big improvement, and the new layout seems to be better in 90% of the areas, but gets hard
to see in other ones (meta, FAQ, etc.). 

Also sometimes all the green bars of the page were visible at the same time, and disappear when I click (in
Chrome). I think it's when I try to open the properties dialog and it crashes, so probably a js thing.

But it looks good!

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Magnolia Forums (on behalf of Leo Lozes | 13 Feb 15:32

[magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

Also, in the carousel, it's not very clear that you have to go to the last item to add a new one. It would be nice
to have an "add" button somewhere right away. 
Then  when you scroll from one item to another, the "Teaser Group - Carousel Item" title is always visible,
but the main "Teaser Items" from the group seems to be stuck in the first item.

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Magnolia Forums (on behalf of Matt Dertinger | 14 Feb 13:54

[magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

Thanks Andreas.  I sent a notice out to our content authors here to try it out and report their thoughts.  I look
forward to hearing their feedback.

Cheers,
Matt

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Magnolia Forums (on behalf of Ernst Bunders | 15 Feb 10:24

[magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

Hello

Quite some feedback already. Two quick points:
- one thing i would really like is an update to the fck editor in the richtext dialog control. Newer versions
are easily re-sizable, just by dragging them larger. I always find it a bit vexing to have to enter more than
a few lines in the small text box.
- I generally like the way edit bars are behaving right now, but what I don't like is the fact that most links
are not clickable anymore. This makes it harder to navigate the site in edit mode.

Everything else has been said already. What I specifically find of importance is the fact the page reloads
after editing a paragraph, and you have to scroll back to the paragraph. 
- auto scroll back would be nice
- ajax submit and in-page update of single paragraph would be aces!

cheers, keep up the good work,

Ernst Bunders

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Magnolia Forums (on behalf of Boris Kraft | 17 Feb 09:38

[magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

Ernst

thanks for your feedback. Auto Scroll is implemented with Beta 6, available now. It works like a charm, in
fact it works so well (on Safari at least) that you don't even notice it when you save a change. (Not sure how
the Safari guys did that, but the window doesn't flicker).

- B

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Magnolia Forums (on behalf of Boris Kraft | 17 Feb 09:54

[magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

I have posted two designs for edit bars on Facebook - one with the Edit Buttons as well know them, and one with
new icons. WDYT?[img]http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150662404089881&set=o.62998986317&type=1&theater[/img]
[img]http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150662404819881&set=o.62998986317&type=1&theater[/img]

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Unger, Richard | 17 Feb 11:41
Picon

AW: [magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

Hi Boris!

Personally, I like the icons much better. 

Saves space, doesn't require i18n, looks better.

Regards from Vienna,

Richard

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: dev-list-owner <at> magnolia-cms.com [mailto:dev-list-owner <at> magnolia-cms.com] Im Auftrag von
Magnolia Forums (on behalf of Boris Kraft)
Gesendet: Freitag, 17. Februar 2012 09:55
An: Magnolia Dev List
Betreff: [magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

I have posted two designs for edit bars on Facebook - one with the Edit Buttons as well know them, and one with
new icons. WDYT?[img]http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150662404089881&set=o.62998986317&type=1&theater[/img]
[img]http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150662404819881&set=o.62998986317&type=1&theater[/img]

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Jozef Chocholáček | 21 Feb 09:42
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Favicon

Re: AW: [magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

+1 for icons

J.Ch.

On 02/17/2012 11:41 AM, Unger, Richard wrote:
> Hi Boris!
>
> Personally, I like the icons much better.
>
> Saves space, doesn't require i18n, looks better.
>
> Regards from Vienna,
>
> Richard
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von:
> dev-list-owner <at> magnolia-cms.com
> [mailto:dev-list-owner <at> magnolia-cms.com] Im Auftrag von Magnolia
> Forums (on behalf of Boris Kraft) Gesendet: Freitag, 17. Februar 2012
> 09:55 An: Magnolia Dev List Betreff: [magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5
> sneak preview !
>
> I have posted two designs for edit bars on Facebook - one with the
> Edit Buttons as well know them, and one with new icons.
> WDYT?[img]http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150662404089881&set=o.62998986317&type=1&theater[/img]
>
>
[img]http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150662404819881&set=o.62998986317&type=1&theater[/img]
>
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Magnolia Forums (on behalf of Boris Kraft | 17 Feb 09:55

[magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

Hm, seems the image URL stuff doesn't work with the forum…

Links:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150662404819881&set=o.62998986317&type=1&theater
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150662404089881&set=o.62998986317&type=1&theater

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Magnolia Forums (on behalf of Matt Dertinger | 17 Feb 14:58

[magnolia-dev] Re: Magnolia 4.5 sneak preview !

Hi Boris,

An Enthusiastic +1 for the icons!

Cheers,
Matt

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Gmane