headers
Olivier Michel | 18 Aug 2004 16:14

Re: off contest matches

Hi,

Thanks Bothari for this proposal. I believe it is doable, and maybe not 
so difficult to implement. I will implement it as soon as possible 
(probably tomorrow). In the meanwhile, I may also implement some rules 
to shorten the boring matches where no robot is moving.

-Olivier

Bothari wrote:

>RoboMarci: Is there any progress with the off contest matches?
>Olivier: No, not yet...
>
>Here is a proposition of an easy(?) implementation of "off 
>contest matches".
>
>It would indeed be cool to update our robot and ask for a 
>fight with a specific oponent (even a match again our own 
>robot ?).
>
>The ideay is to let people write a "request_match.txt" in 
>their directory. This file will contain one line with the name 
>of two robots (case has to be respected !).
>
>For instance :
>Bothari gollum
>
>This way, the server can check each competitor directory and 
>parse the two first words of teh first line of this file. At
(Continue reading)

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Hip Robotamus | 18 Aug 2004 17:17
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Favicon

Re: off contest matches

 
how about adding another parameter like robot energy which decreases when not moving and increases with movement (inverse reality!!). Therefore robots not moving die perhaps after 30 sec's whereas a moving robot will create enough energy to last the full round time limit?? Crazy idea??
 
Hip


Olivier Michel <Olivier.Michel <at> cyberbotics.com> wrote:
Hi,

Thanks Bothari for this proposal. I believe it is doable, and maybe not
so difficult to implement. I will implement it as soon as possible
(probably tomorrow). In the meanwhile, I may also implement some rules
to shorten the boring matches where no robot is moving.

-Olivier

Bothari wrote:

>RoboMarci: Is there any progress with the off contest matches?
>Olivier: No, not yet...
>
>Here is a proposition of an easy(?) implementation of "off
>contest matches".
>
>It would indeed be cool to update our robot and ask for a
>fight with a specific oponent (even a match again our own
>robot ?).
>
>The ideay is to let people write a "request_match.txt" in
>their directory. This file wi ll contain one line with the name
>of two robots (case has to be respected !).
>
>For instance :
>Bothari gollum
>
>This way, the server can check each competitor directory and
>parse the two first words of teh first line of this file. At
>the end, he will get a list of the off contest fights to perform.
>The server can then remove or rename all of these files as
>"request_match.txt.old". This way, competitor have to rename
>reload their request_match.txt if they want an other figth to
>be performed next time. This way, only requested fight will be
>performed.
>
>After the sequence of fights, the server just repeat the check
>of the txt files. If none present, no figths. And he can wait
>a bit before rechecking.
>
>
>I don't know how the contest sequence of match is programmed,
>so it's probably not so easy to have things working this way.
>But I like the way it allow to have only requested fight.
>
>
>Any comments ? Aditionnal improve ideas ?
>What's your opinion olivier ? Realistic ? Easy to implement or
>not ?
>
>Bothari, who hopes it will help to get off contest soon...
>
>
>


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Olivier Michel | 25 Aug 2004 12:52

Re: off contest matches

Hi,

I just finished the off-contest match capability. I tested it and it 
seems it works fairly good.
To proceed, log on (Account-> Log in ), then, go to the Account -> Test 
match menu item and follow the instructions.
It has currently the following restrictions:

(1) you must have a robot in the competition to engage an off-contest 
match (i.e., appear in the Hall of Fame).
(2) you can only play match between your robot and any robot in the 
competition (including yours, not tested though).

Please let me know if that is working for you and if it is useful.

Concerning the limitation on boring matches / boring robots, I believe 
the best way to work around this is to eliminate the last robot in the 
hall of fame every day until the hall of fame has a minimum number of 
entries (let's say 10 at the begining). A robot which has been 
eliminated this way can get back into the contest simply by submitting a 
new version of its controller: his main class will be simply renamed to 
MyEclecticJudoka.class-eliminated. It is simple to implement and easy to 
understand (no energy level, arbitraty distance covered by the robot 
during an arbitrary number of seconds, etc.). Let me know if you have 
any thoughts about it so that I could proceed with this idea soon.

-Olivier

Hip Robotamus wrote:

>  
> how about adding another parameter like robot energy which decreases 
> when not moving and increases with movement (inverse reality!!). 
> Therefore robots not moving die perhaps after 30 sec's whereas a 
> moving robot will create enough energy to last the full round time 
> limit?? Crazy idea??
>  
> Hip
>
>
> */Olivier Michel <Olivier.Michel <at> cyberbotics.com>/* wrote:
>
>     Hi,
>
>     Thanks Bothari for this proposal. I believe it is doable, and
>     maybe not
>     so difficult to implement. I will implement it as soon as possible
>     (probably tomorrow). In the meanwhile, I may also implement some
>     rules
>     to shorten the boring matches where no robot is moving.
>
>     -Olivier
>
>     Bothari wrote:
>
>     >RoboMarci: Is there any progress with the off contest matches?
>     >Olivier: No, not yet...
>     >
>     >Here is a proposition of an easy(?) implementation of "off
>     >contest matches".
>     >
>     >It would indeed be cool to update our robot and ask for a
>     >fight with a specific oponent (even a match again our own
>     >robot ?).
>     >
>     >The ideay is to let people write a "request_match.txt" in
>     >their directory. This file will contain one line with the name
>     >of two robots (case has to be respected !).
>     >
>     >For instance :
>     >Bothari gollum
>     >
>     >This way, the server can check each competitor directory and
>     >parse the two first words of teh first line of this file. At
>     >the end, he will get a list of the off contest fights to perform.
>     >The server can then remove or rename all of these files as
>     >"request_match.txt.old". This way, competitor have to rename
>     >reload their request_match.txt if they want an other figth to
>     >be performed next time. This way, only requested fight will be
>     >performed.
>     >
>     >After the sequence of fights, the server just repeat the check
>     >of the txt files. If none present, no figths. And he can wait
>     >a bit before rechecking.
>     >
>     >
>     >I don't know how the contest sequence of match is programmed,
>     >so it's probably not so easy to have things working this way.
>     >But I like the way it allow to have only requested fight.
>     >
>     >
>     >Any comments ? Aditionnal improve ideas ?
>     >What's your opinion olivier ? Realistic ? Easy to implement or
>     >not ?
>     >
>     >Bothari, who hopes it will help to get off contest soon...
>     >
>     >
>     >
>
>
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bothari | 25 Aug 2004 14:25
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Re: boring matches


I disagree with the proposition.
It is only based on the false assumption that the last robot is a boring one.
Moreover, it doesn't solve anything, as the supposed boring robot can get back
the day after.

So, according to me, eliminating the last robot is not a solution to get ride of
boring matches.

A boring matches is for me : a match facing the same two robots than the day
before, when none of them has been updtated, and when one of them is clearly
superior to the other one (ie score of 3-0 or 3-1)

A solution can be to not perform these boring matchs, by just keeping last day
result.
This way a robot keep it's position in the hall of fame (whatever it is) without
fighting, because the above and below robot are the same than the day before,
and because there is no doubt about who will be the winner if the matches is
replayed.

Concerning matches with rounds all ended by time out, I don't think they  are
automatically boring ones. If they are, the above filter will probably allow to
have them played only one time.

With suche a rule, by highlighting new played matches, it will be able to focus
on what is new in the contest, and identify stable robot groups in the hall of
fame that no more need to figth because they have established their position.

Bothari, whose opinion is not based on the fact he is at the bottom of the hall
of fame ;)

Olivier Michel wrote:
> Concerning the limitation on boring matches / boring robots, I believe
> the best way to work around this is to eliminate the last robot in the
> hall of fame every day until the hall of fame has a minimum number of
> entries (let's say 10 at the begining). A robot which has been
> eliminated this way can get back into the contest simply by submitting a
> new version of its controller: his main class will be simply renamed to
> MyEclecticJudoka.class-eliminated. It is simple to implement and easy to
> understand (no energy level, arbitraty distance covered by the robot
> during an arbitrary number of seconds, etc.). Let me know if you have
> any thoughts about it so that I could proceed with this idea soon.
> -Olivier

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gboban | 25 Aug 2004 15:01

Re: boring matches

I agree with Bothari in the sense that last robot in the Hall of Fame is not
necessary the least active. There are some robots that don't do anything at
all during the match, but are far from last position. On the other hand, I
disagree with idea not to perform matches between robots when one of them
regulary beats another since it may discurage use of some automated lerning
methods (like trying to find best strategy for current opponent by logging
and analysing stratgy used in the match and comparing it to results).

It seems to me that probably best thing to do is to check if some robot has
moved in the last 15 secs (or so), and disqualify him if not. Also, maybe
you can eliminate robots from the Hall of Fame by checking if they have
moved at all in the last match/round by examining results.txt (XYZBot
covered x.y m... text).

-FiremanFred

----- Original Message -----
From: <bothari <at> free.fr>
To: <webots-contest <at> yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: [webots-contest] boring matches

>
>
> I disagree with the proposition.
> It is only based on the false assumption that the last robot is a boring
one.
> Moreover, it doesn't solve anything, as the supposed boring robot can get
back
> the day after.
>
> So, according to me, eliminating the last robot is not a solution to get
ride of
> boring matches.
>
> A boring matches is for me : a match facing the same two robots than the
day
> before, when none of them has been updtated, and when one of them is
clearly
> superior to the other one (ie score of 3-0 or 3-1)
>
> A solution can be to not perform these boring matchs, by just keeping last
day
> result.
> This way a robot keep it's position in the hall of fame (whatever it is)
without
> fighting, because the above and below robot are the same than the day
before,
> and because there is no doubt about who will be the winner if the matches
is
> replayed.
>
> Concerning matches with rounds all ended by time out, I don't think they
are
> automatically boring ones. If they are, the above filter will probably
allow to
> have them played only one time.
>
> With suche a rule, by highlighting new played matches, it will be able to
focus
> on what is new in the contest, and identify stable robot groups in the
hall of
> fame that no more need to figth because they have established their
position.
>
> Bothari, whose opinion is not based on the fact he is at the bottom of the
hall
> of fame ;)
>
>
> Olivier Michel wrote:
> > Concerning the limitation on boring matches / boring robots, I believe
> > the best way to work around this is to eliminate the last robot in the
> > hall of fame every day until the hall of fame has a minimum number of
> > entries (let's say 10 at the begining). A robot which has been
> > eliminated this way can get back into the contest simply by submitting a
> > new version of its controller: his main class will be simply renamed to
> > MyEclecticJudoka.class-eliminated. It is simple to implement and easy to
> > understand (no energy level, arbitraty distance covered by the robot
> > during an arbitrary number of seconds, etc.). Let me know if you have
> > any thoughts about it so that I could proceed with this idea soon.
> > -Olivier
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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José A Martín H | 25 Aug 2004 16:30
Favicon

Re: boring matches

I, I Think, I think, I.
 
That.
 
The rules of the game must not change, because this can lead to some unconformities.
 
I am afefected directly by 2 boring robots, OGHAB and SSBOUNET, this 2 robots do nothing
but they win me every day !!!.
 
I think that this is correct because i need to learn to win in this situation.
 
so, dont eliminate the last robot in the list.
 
The main reason is that:
 
suppose that the last robot dont update his controller. but the next robot did it.
then the change of the next robot make it loss the next figth,
 
then the last robot can win the next figth because the next robot has upgraded his controller with a poor strategy...
 
Eliminating any robot is a delicated desition, so, by now, please evaluate all the possibilities and do not take desitions fast.
 
Thanks..
GLADIATOR.
 
 
 


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Olivier Michel | 25 Aug 2004 18:48

Re: boring matches

All right, I understand your concerns. So, maybe we will have to come 
back to the first idea which is making a robot loose a match if it 
doesn't move over the first few seconds of the match. Let's say it has 
to cover at least 20 cm within the first 10 seconds. Sounds fair ?

-Olivier

José A Martín H wrote:

> I, I Think, I think, I.
>  
> That.
>  
> The rules of the game must not change, because this can lead to some 
> unconformities.
>  
> I am afefected directly by 2 boring robots, OGHAB and SSBOUNET, this 2 
> robots do nothing
> but they win me every day !!!.
>  
> I think that this is correct because i need to learn to win in this 
> situation.
>  
> so, dont eliminate the last robot in the list.
>  
> The main reason is that:
>  
> suppose that the last robot dont update his controller. but the next 
> robot did it.
> then the change of the next robot make it loss the next figth,
>  
> then the last robot can win the next figth because the next robot has 
> upgraded his controller with a poor strategy...
>  
> Eliminating any robot is a delicated desition, so, by now, please 
> evaluate all the possibilities and do not take desitions fast.
>  
> Thanks..
> GLADIATOR.

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Marton Laszlo | 26 Aug 2004 09:42
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Re: boring matches

Hi to everyone,

I'm against to any elimination from the hall-off fame.

My only desire is to make somehow the boring matches
shorter.

Most of the time this matches occures when somebody
forget to upload some of his classes, and webots has
nothing to do. 
In the current situation ssebounet forgot to upload
the ssebounet$Gene.class and if he check for it in his
directory where sebounet was compiled he will find it.
Oghab did that with the Judoka0$Gene.class. As can be
seen in errort.txt found at
http://roboka.org/results/errors.zip.

Returning to the boring match issue.
My suggestion is: If a controler doesn't move for
10-15 secondts he will lose with Technical KO.

Greetings,
Márton László, RoboMarci

		
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Olivier Michel | 26 Aug 2004 12:32

Re: boring matches

Hi,

All right, I am going to implement this simple rule you suggested.

By the way, I improved a little bit the test match system. Now, the test 
matches are viewable from the main roboka page (webcam). This allows you 
to show to someone else (or everybody) how your robot performs and chat 
at the same time.

This may be fun to invite an opponent to watch a match between his robot 
and yours and to chat while it's running...

-Olivier

Marton Laszlo wrote:

>Hi to everyone,
>
>I'm against to any elimination from the hall-off fame.
>
>My only desire is to make somehow the boring matches
>shorter.
>
>Most of the time this matches occures when somebody
>forget to upload some of his classes, and webots has
>nothing to do. 
>In the current situation ssebounet forgot to upload
>the ssebounet$Gene.class and if he check for it in his
>directory where sebounet was compiled he will find it.
>Oghab did that with the Judoka0$Gene.class. As can be
>seen in errort.txt found at
>http://roboka.org/results/errors.zip.
>
>
>Returning to the boring match issue.
>My suggestion is: If a controler doesn't move for
>10-15 secondts he will lose with Technical KO.
>
>Greetings,
>Márton László, RoboMarci
>  
>

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José A Martín H | 26 Aug 2004 01:36
Favicon

Re: boring matches

I agree, this do not change the dynamics of the game and it is a form to stimulate the competitors to submit controllers of robots that have been programed instead of simply putting the example judoka0.java shipped with webots demo version.
 
J.A. Matin.
regards
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: [webots-contest] boring matches

All right, I understand your concerns. So, maybe we will have to come
back to the first idea which is making a robot loose a match if it
doesn't move over the first few seconds of the match. Let's say it has
to cover at least 20 cm within the first 10 seconds. Sounds fair ?

-Olivier

José A Martín H wrote:

> I, I Think, I think, I.
> 
> That.
> 
> The rules of the game must not change, because this can lead to some
> unconformities.
> 
> I am afefected directly by 2 boring robots, OGHAB and SSBOUNET, this 2
> robots do nothing
> but they win me every day !!!.
> 
> I think that this is correct because i need to learn to win in this
> situation.
> 
> so, dont eliminate the last robot in the list.
> 
> The main reason is that:
> 
> suppose that the last robot dont update his controller. but the next
> robot did it.
> then the change of the next robot make it loss the next figth,
> 
> then the last robot can win the next figth because the next robot has
> upgraded his controller with a poor strategy...
> 
> Eliminating any robot is a delicated desition, so, by now, please
> evaluate all the possibilities and do not take desitions fast.
> 
> Thanks..
> GLADIATOR.




Yahoo! Groups Links
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Garfae | 26 Aug 2004 15:41
Picon

Re: boring matches

How about using supervised ruling? Since Olivier probably watches some
(if not all) of the matches anyway, it could be possible for the arbiter
(Olivier and/or some other person) to judge a robot "boring", which will
bar it from playing further matches until controller (or some other
robot's data file) get updated by its owner. Or maybe use a warning
system (e.g. 3 warnings, then bar until update).

Of course, this will take up more human time than the simpler "moved
less than Y m in X secs => lose match" rule.  <at> |:-) Maybe moderators
could be used for the purpose?...

Regards,
-Me

José A Martín H wrote:
> I agree, this do not change the dynamics of the game and it is a form to 
> stimulate the competitors to submit controllers of robots that have been 
> programed instead of simply putting the example judoka0.java shipped 
> with webots demo version.
>  
> J.A. Matin.
> regards
> 
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Olivier Michel <mailto:Olivier.Michel <at> cyberbotics.com>
>     *To:* webots-contest <at> yahoogroups.com
>     <mailto:webots-contest <at> yahoogroups.com>
>     *Sent:* Wednesday, August 25, 2004 6:48 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: [webots-contest] boring matches
> 
>     All right, I understand your concerns. So, maybe we will have to come
>     back to the first idea which is making a robot loose a match if it
>     doesn't move over the first few seconds of the match. Let's say it has
>     to cover at least 20 cm within the first 10 seconds. Sounds fair ?
> 
>     -Olivier
> 
>     José A Martín H wrote:
> 
>      > I, I Think, I think, I.
>      > 
>      > That.
>      > 
>      > The rules of the game must not change, because this can lead to some
>      > unconformities.
>      > 
>      > I am afefected directly by 2 boring robots, OGHAB and SSBOUNET,
>     this 2
>      > robots do nothing
>      > but they win me every day !!!.
>      > 
>      > I think that this is correct because i need to learn to win in this
>      > situation.
>      > 
>      > so, dont eliminate the last robot in the list.
>      > 
>      > The main reason is that:
>      > 
>      > suppose that the last robot dont update his controller. but the next
>      > robot did it.
>      > then the change of the next robot make it loss the next figth,
>      > 
>      > then the last robot can win the next figth because the next robot
>     has
>      > upgraded his controller with a poor strategy...
>      > 
>      > Eliminating any robot is a delicated desition, so, by now, please
>      > evaluate all the possibilities and do not take desitions fast.
>      > 
>      > Thanks..
>      > GLADIATOR.
> 
> 
> 
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Séb | 25 Aug 2004 16:16
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Re: boring matches

Yes I'm sorry, my robot is ssebounet, but I have not
the time to that in this moment!!! I come back in the
futur!!
Best regards,
seb

 --- José_A_Martín_H <joseamartin <at> cantv.net> a écrit :

> I, I Think, I think, I.
> 
> That.
> 
> The rules of the game must not change, because this
> can lead to some unconformities.
> 
> I am afefected directly by 2 boring robots, OGHAB
> and SSBOUNET, this 2 robots do nothing
> but they win me every day !!!.
> 
> I think that this is correct because i need to learn
> to win in this situation.
> 
> so, dont eliminate the last robot in the list.
> 
> The main reason is that:
> 
> suppose that the last robot dont update his
> controller. but the next robot did it.
> then the change of the next robot make it loss the
> next figth,
> 
> then the last robot can win the next figth because
> the next robot has upgraded his controller with a
> poor strategy...
> 
> Eliminating any robot is a delicated desition, so,
> by now, please evaluate all the possibilities and do
> not take desitions fast.
> 
> Thanks..
> GLADIATOR.
> 
> 
>  

	

	
		
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Gmane