Tomás Vírseda | 12 Sep 23:50 2009
Picon

pimo:Tag vs nao:Tag

Hi,

I'm confused about pimo:Tag and nao:Tag classes described in their
respective ontology. Which is the difference between these two clases?
I'm reading the ontologies documentation but I can't still figure out
how they should be used. I'm developing a tagging system in a
application and I would like to use Nepomuk.

About pimo:Tag description:
"Tags in the context of PIMO. A marker class for Things that are used
to categorize documents (or other things). Tags must be a kind of
Thing and must have a unique label. Documents should not be Tags by
default."

About nao:Tag description:
"This class is useful for modelling conventional tagging practices.
The user can tag resources in conventional ways, automatically
creating an instance of this tag, which is then related to the
annotated resource via the nao:hasTag property. For more on tagging as
annotation see Section 2.3.". I've read this section and the
explanation is very convincing.

Thanks in advance.
Kind regards

--
Tomás Vírseda
Leo Sauermann | 25 Sep 18:30 2009
Picon

Re: [people] pimo:Tag vs nao:Tag

Hi,

as others may be interested in this discussion, I am also including xesam
(= the ontology developers list)

I was a bit slow to answer, sorry.

Tomás - what are you programming? do you have a url or a blogpost about 
your work?

nao:Tag is for systems that just use NAO/NIE and are fine with 
no-brainer solutions.
a nao:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a string. its unique.

pimo:Tag is for systems that want to achieve a highlevel integration of 
Addressbooks, Calendars, Websites, etc... into a semantic network. 
pimo:Tags are then not only tags, but can be also a pimo:Person - that 
is, you can use a person's name to tag something but - surprise - it is 
also a person.
now clicking on the person will get more...
a pimo:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a unique string 
which is also a Thing out of the real world which can have more attributes.

I also documented this here in the FAQ
https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/oscaf/wiki/PIMO/FAQ#Whatisthedifferencebetweennao:Tagandpimo:Tag

best
Leo

It was Tomás Vírseda who said at the right time 12.09.2009 23:50 the 
(Continue reading)

Evgeny Egorochkin | 25 Sep 18:43 2009
Picon

Re: [people] pimo:Tag vs nao:Tag

Basically I think the biggest concern here is interoperability between nao:Tag 
and pimo:Tag.

How can applications that use nao:Tag and pimo:Tag "talk" to each other?

В сообщении от Пятница 25 сентября 2009 19:30:58 автор Leo Sauermann написал:
> as others may be interested in this discussion, I am also including xesam
> (= the ontology developers list)
> 
> I was a bit slow to answer, sorry.
> 
> Tomás - what are you programming? do you have a url or a blogpost about
> your work?
> 
> nao:Tag is for systems that just use NAO/NIE and are fine with
> no-brainer solutions.
> a nao:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a string. its unique.
> 
> pimo:Tag is for systems that want to achieve a highlevel integration of
> Addressbooks, Calendars, Websites, etc... into a semantic network.
> pimo:Tags are then not only tags, but can be also a pimo:Person - that
> is, you can use a person's name to tag something but - surprise - it is
> also a person.
> now clicking on the person will get more...
> a pimo:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a unique string
> which is also a Thing out of the real world which can have more attributes.
> 
> I also documented this here in the FAQ
> https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/oscaf/wiki/PIMO/FAQ#Whatisthedifferencebe
> tweennao:Tagandpimo:Tag
(Continue reading)

Leo Sauermann | 25 Sep 19:07 2009
Picon

Re: [people] pimo:Tag vs nao:Tag

It was Evgeny Egorochkin who said at the right time 25.09.2009 18:43 the following words:
Basically I think the biggest concern here is interoperability between nao:Tag and pimo:Tag. How can applications that use nao:Tag and pimo:Tag "talk" to each other?
let the same instance be both a nao:tag and a pimo:Tag.

but our plan was:
* nao:Tag is piss-easy, we use it now to get KDE 4.0 off the ground (... this we said in ~Oct 2006)
* pimo:Tag is way cooler because your things in live are tags. We should update KDE for this (... uh....)

so, it will take some time to get there.

Sebastian Trüg actually worked on some ways to do this - I think.

did you?

best
Leo


В сообщении от Пятница 25 сентября 2009 19:30:58 автор Leo Sauermann написал:
as others may be interested in this discussion, I am also including xesam (= the ontology developers list) I was a bit slow to answer, sorry. Tomás - what are you programming? do you have a url or a blogpost about your work? nao:Tag is for systems that just use NAO/NIE and are fine with no-brainer solutions. a nao:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a string. its unique. pimo:Tag is for systems that want to achieve a highlevel integration of Addressbooks, Calendars, Websites, etc... into a semantic network. pimo:Tags are then not only tags, but can be also a pimo:Person - that is, you can use a person's name to tag something but - surprise - it is also a person. now clicking on the person will get more... a pimo:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a unique string which is also a Thing out of the real world which can have more attributes. I also documented this here in the FAQ https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/oscaf/wiki/PIMO/FAQ#Whatisthedifferencebe tweennao:Tagandpimo:Tag best Leo It was Tomás Vírseda who said at the right time 12.09.2009 23:50 the following words:
Hi, I'm confused about pimo:Tag and nao:Tag classes described in their respective ontology. Which is the difference between these two clases? I'm reading the ontologies documentation but I can't still figure out how they should be used. I'm developing a tagging system in a application and I would like to use Nepomuk. About pimo:Tag description: "Tags in the context of PIMO. A marker class for Things that are used to categorize documents (or other things). Tags must be a kind of Thing and must have a unique label. Documents should not be Tags by default." About nao:Tag description: "This class is useful for modelling conventional tagging practices. The user can tag resources in conventional ways, automatically creating an instance of this tag, which is then related to the annotated resource via the nao:hasTag property. For more on tagging as annotation see Section 2.3.". I've read this section and the explanation is very convincing. Thanks in advance. Kind regards -- Tomás Vírseda _______________________________________________ people mailing list people-8FRlne0xlECvj1b/ULB3Z0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org http://lists.semanticdesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/people


-- _____________________________________________________ Dr. Leo Sauermann http://www.dfki.de/~sauermann Deutsches Forschungszentrum fuer Kuenstliche Intelligenz DFKI GmbH Trippstadter Strasse 122 P.O. Box 2080 Fon: +43 6991 gnowsis D-67663 Kaiserslautern Fax: +49 631 20575-102 Germany Mail: leo.sauermann-7kGu3w2zD6I@public.gmane.org Geschaeftsfuehrung: Prof.Dr.Dr.h.c.mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender) Dr. Walter Olthoff Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes Amtsgericht Kaiserslautern, HRB 2313 _____________________________________________________
<div>
It was Evgeny Egorochkin who said at the right time 25.09.2009 18:43
the following words:
<blockquote cite="mid:200909251943.30134.phreedom.stdin@..." type="cite">
  Basically I think the biggest concern here is interoperability between nao:Tag 
and pimo:Tag.

How can applications that use nao:Tag and pimo:Tag "talk" to each other?

</blockquote>
let the same instance be both a nao:tag and a pimo:Tag.<br><br>
but our plan was:<br>
* nao:Tag is piss-easy, we use it now to get KDE 4.0 off the ground
(... this we said in ~Oct 2006)<br>
* pimo:Tag is way cooler because your things in live are tags. We
should update KDE for this (... uh....)<br><br>
so, it will take some time to get there.<br><br>
Sebastian Tr&uuml;g actually worked on some ways to do this - I think.<br><br>
did you?<br><br>
best<br>
Leo<br><br><br><blockquote cite="mid:200909251943.30134.phreedom.stdin@..." type="cite">

&#1042; &#1089;&#1086;&#1086;&#1073;&#1097;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1080; &#1086;&#1090; &#1055;&#1103;&#1090;&#1085;&#1080;&#1094;&#1072; 25 &#1089;&#1077;&#1085;&#1090;&#1103;&#1073;&#1088;&#1103; 2009 19:30:58 &#1072;&#1074;&#1090;&#1086;&#1088; Leo Sauermann &#1085;&#1072;&#1087;&#1080;&#1089;&#1072;&#1083;:

  <blockquote type="cite">
    as others may be interested in this discussion, I am also including xesam
(= the ontology developers list)

I was a bit slow to answer, sorry.

Tom&aacute;s - what are you programming? do you have a url or a blogpost about
your work?

nao:Tag is for systems that just use NAO/NIE and are fine with
no-brainer solutions.
a nao:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a string. its unique.

pimo:Tag is for systems that want to achieve a highlevel integration of
Addressbooks, Calendars, Websites, etc... into a semantic network.
pimo:Tags are then not only tags, but can be also a pimo:Person - that
is, you can use a person's name to tag something but - surprise - it is
also a person.
now clicking on the person will get more...
a pimo:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a unique string
which is also a Thing out of the real world which can have more attributes.

I also documented this here in the FAQ
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/oscaf/wiki/PIMO/FAQ#Whatisthedifferencebe">https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/oscaf/wiki/PIMO/FAQ#Whatisthedifferencebe</a>
tweennao:Tagandpimo:Tag

best
Leo

It was Tom&aacute;s V&iacute;rseda who said at the right time 12.09.2009 23:50 the

following words:

    <blockquote type="cite">
      Hi,

I'm confused about pimo:Tag and nao:Tag classes described in their
respective ontology. Which is the difference between these two clases?
I'm reading the ontologies documentation but I can't still figure out
how they should be used. I'm developing a tagging system in a
application and I would like to use Nepomuk.

About pimo:Tag description:
"Tags in the context of PIMO. A marker class for Things that are used
to categorize documents (or other things). Tags must be a kind of
Thing and must have a unique label. Documents should not be Tags by
default."

About nao:Tag description:
"This class is useful for modelling conventional tagging practices.
The user can tag resources in conventional ways, automatically
creating an instance of this tag, which is then related to the
annotated resource via the nao:hasTag property. For more on tagging as
annotation see Section 2.3.". I've read this section and the
explanation is very convincing.

Thanks in advance.
Kind regards

--
Tom&aacute;s V&iacute;rseda
_______________________________________________
people mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:people <at> semanticdesktop.org">people@...</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.semanticdesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/people">http://lists.semanticdesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/people</a>

    </blockquote>
  </blockquote>

  
</blockquote>
<br><br>-- 
_____________________________________________________
Dr. Leo Sauermann       <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.dfki.de/~sauermann">http://www.dfki.de/~sauermann</a> 

Deutsches Forschungszentrum fuer 
Kuenstliche Intelligenz DFKI GmbH
Trippstadter Strasse 122
P.O. Box 2080           Fon:   +43 6991 gnowsis
D-67663 Kaiserslautern  Fax:   +49 631 20575-102
Germany                 Mail:  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:leo.sauermann@...">leo.sauermann@...</a>

Geschaeftsfuehrung:
Prof.Dr.Dr.h.c.mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
Dr. Walter Olthoff
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
Amtsgericht Kaiserslautern, HRB 2313
_____________________________________________________

</div>
Evgeny Egorochkin | 25 Sep 19:27 2009
Picon

Re: [people] pimo:Tag vs nao:Tag

В сообщении от Пятница 25 сентября 2009 20:07:51 автор Leo Sauermann написал:
> It was Evgeny Egorochkin who said at the right time 25.09.2009 18:43 the
> 
> following words:
> > Basically I think the biggest concern here is interoperability between
> > nao:Tag and pimo:Tag.
> >
> > How can applications that use nao:Tag and pimo:Tag "talk" to each other?
> 
> let the same instance be both a nao:tag and a pimo:Tag.
> 
> but our plan was:
> * nao:Tag is piss-easy, we use it now to get KDE 4.0 off the ground (...
> this we said in ~Oct 2006)
> * pimo:Tag is way cooler because your things in live are tags. We should
> update KDE for this (... uh....)
> 
> so, it will take some time to get there.
> 
> Sebastian Trüg actually worked on some ways to do this - I think.
> 
> did you?

Basically since "cheap pimo:Thingification"[1] is agreed on in principle, I 
believe kde could move to using pimo:Tag anytime.

[1] https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/oscaf/ticket/45

> > В сообщении от Пятница 25 сентября 2009 19:30:58 автор Leo
Sauermann 
написал:
> >> as others may be interested in this discussion, I am also including
> >> xesam (= the ontology developers list)
> >>
> >> I was a bit slow to answer, sorry.
> >>
> >> Tomás - what are you programming? do you have a url or a blogpost about
> >> your work?
> >>
> >> nao:Tag is for systems that just use NAO/NIE and are fine with
> >> no-brainer solutions.
> >> a nao:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a string. its unique.
> >>
> >> pimo:Tag is for systems that want to achieve a highlevel integration of
> >> Addressbooks, Calendars, Websites, etc... into a semantic network.
> >> pimo:Tags are then not only tags, but can be also a pimo:Person - that
> >> is, you can use a person's name to tag something but - surprise - it is
> >> also a person.
> >> now clicking on the person will get more...
> >> a pimo:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a unique string
> >> which is also a Thing out of the real world which can have more
> >> attributes.
> >>
> >> I also documented this here in the FAQ
> >> https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/oscaf/wiki/PIMO/FAQ#Whatisthedifferenc
> >>ebe tweennao:Tagandpimo:Tag
> >>
> >> best
> >> Leo
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> It was Tomás Vírseda who said at the right time 12.09.2009 23:50 the
> >>
> >> following words:
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> I'm confused about pimo:Tag and nao:Tag classes described in their
> >>> respective ontology. Which is the difference between these two clases?
> >>> I'm reading the ontologies documentation but I can't still figure out
> >>> how they should be used. I'm developing a tagging system in a
> >>> application and I would like to use Nepomuk.
> >>>
> >>> About pimo:Tag description:
> >>> "Tags in the context of PIMO. A marker class for Things that are used
> >>> to categorize documents (or other things). Tags must be a kind of
> >>> Thing and must have a unique label. Documents should not be Tags by
> >>> default."
> >>>
> >>> About nao:Tag description:
> >>> "This class is useful for modelling conventional tagging practices.
> >>> The user can tag resources in conventional ways, automatically
> >>> creating an instance of this tag, which is then related to the
> >>> annotated resource via the nao:hasTag property. For more on tagging as
> >>> annotation see Section 2.3.". I've read this section and the
> >>> explanation is very convincing.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks in advance.
> >>> Kind regards
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Tomás Vírseda
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> people mailing list
> >>> people <at> semanticdesktop.org
> >>> http://lists.semanticdesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/people
> 
_______________________________________________
Xesam mailing list
Xesam <at> lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xesam
Siegfried Handschuh | 25 Sep 18:48 2009

Re: (no subject)

Hi,

Actually the philosophy in NAO is a bit different. You can also do there 
an annotation of Addressbooks, Calendars, Websites etc. But you would 
indeed not use nao:Tag.

NAO has a set of relations you can use to annotate a resource with 
another resource. To annotate a resource with pimo:Person you could use, 
for example, nao:isRelated.

just my two cents.

cheers
Siggi

  wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> as others may be interested in this discussion, I am also including xesam
> (= the ontology developers list)
> 
> I was a bit slow to answer, sorry.
> 
> Tomás - what are you programming? do you have a url or a blogpost about 
> your work?
> 
> nao:Tag is for systems that just use NAO/NIE and are fine with 
> no-brainer solutions.
> a nao:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a string. its unique.
> 
> pimo:Tag is for systems that want to achieve a highlevel integration of 
> Addressbooks, Calendars, Websites, etc... into a semantic network. 
> pimo:Tags are then not only tags, but can be also a pimo:Person - that 
> is, you can use a person's name to tag something but - surprise - it is 
> also a person.
> now clicking on the person will get more...
> a pimo:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a unique string 
> which is also a Thing out of the real world which can have more attributes.
> 
> I also documented this here in the FAQ
> https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/oscaf/wiki/PIMO/FAQ#Whatisthedifferencebetweennao:Tagandpimo:Tag
> 
> best
> Leo
> 
> 
> 
> It was Tomás Vírseda who said at the right time 12.09.2009 23:50 the 
> following words:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm confused about pimo:Tag and nao:Tag classes described in their
>> respective ontology. Which is the difference between these two clases?
>> I'm reading the ontologies documentation but I can't still figure out
>> how they should be used. I'm developing a tagging system in a
>> application and I would like to use Nepomuk.
>>
>> About pimo:Tag description:
>> "Tags in the context of PIMO. A marker class for Things that are used
>> to categorize documents (or other things). Tags must be a kind of
>> Thing and must have a unique label. Documents should not be Tags by
>> default."
>>
>> About nao:Tag description:
>> "This class is useful for modelling conventional tagging practices.
>> The user can tag resources in conventional ways, automatically
>> creating an instance of this tag, which is then related to the
>> annotated resource via the nao:hasTag property. For more on tagging as
>> annotation see Section 2.3.". I've read this section and the
>> explanation is very convincing.
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>> Kind regards
>>
>> --
>> Tomás Vírseda
>> _______________________________________________
>> people mailing list
>> people@...
>> http://lists.semanticdesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/people
>>
>>   
> 
> 

--

-- 
Dr. Siegfried Handschuh
http://www.siegfried-handschuh.net/
+353 - 91 - 495085
Digital Enterprise Research Institute
    National University of Ireland, Galway.
Siegfried Handschuh | 25 Sep 18:55 2009

Re: pimo:Tag vs nao:Tag

Hi,

so this time, with the right subject ;)

Actually the philosophy in NAO is a bit different. You can also do
there an annotation of Addressbooks, Calendars, Websites etc. But you
would indeed not use nao:Tag.

NAO has a set of relations you can use to annotate a resource with
another resource. To annotate a resource with pimo:Person you could
use, for example, nao:isRelated.

just my two cents.

cheers
Siggi
Ivan Frade | 26 Sep 09:55 2009
Picon

Re: [people] pimo:Tag vs nao:Tag

Hi,

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Leo Sauermann <leo.sauermann-7kGu3w2zD6I@public.gmane.org> wrote:
nao:Tag is for systems that just use NAO/NIE and are fine with
no-brainer solutions.
a nao:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a string. its unique. 

pimo:Tag is for systems that want to achieve a highlevel integration of
Addressbooks, Calendars, Websites, etc... into a semantic network.
pimo:Tags are then not only tags, but can be also a pimo:Person - that
is, you can use a person's name to tag something but - surprise - it is
also a person

Out of curiosity: so "pimo:Tag" is then a generic "link" between two resources?

It sounds like we could replace all properties between concepts (exclusing inheritance) as tags: "music piece belongs to an album" could be a Tag, Contact sent an email..." another tag, "Contact has postal address" another tag....

.
now clicking on the person will get more...
a pimo:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a unique string
which is also a Thing out of the real world which can have more attributes.

Then it is opening the door to all kind of "custom properties". A pimo:Tag is like a property between two things that the user can label... it sounds pretty dangerous.

Regards,,

Ivan

<div>
<p>Hi,<br><br></p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Leo Sauermann <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:leo.sauermann@...">leo.sauermann@...</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote">
nao:Tag is for systems that just use NAO/NIE and are fine with<br>
no-brainer solutions.<br>
a nao:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a string. its unique.&nbsp;<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<br>
pimo:Tag is for systems that want to achieve a highlevel integration of<br>
Addressbooks, Calendars, Websites, etc... into a semantic network.<br>
pimo:Tags are then not only tags, but can be also a pimo:Person - that<br>
is, you can use a person's name to tag something but - surprise - it is<br>
also a person</blockquote>
<div>
<br>Out of curiosity: so "pimo:Tag" is then a generic "link" between two resources? <br><br>It sounds like we could replace all properties between concepts (exclusing inheritance) as tags: "music piece belongs to an album" could be a Tag, Contact sent an email..." another tag, "Contact has postal address" another tag....<br><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">.<br>
now clicking on the person will get more...<br>
a pimo:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a unique string<br>
which is also a Thing out of the real world which can have more attributes.<br>
</blockquote>
<div>
<br>Then it is opening the door to all kind of "custom properties". A pimo:Tag is like a property between two things that the user can label... it sounds pretty dangerous.<br><br>Regards,,<br><br>Ivan</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
Leo Sauermann | 28 Sep 17:14 2009
Picon

Re: [people] pimo:Tag vs nao:Tag

It was Ivan Frade who said at the right time 26.09.2009 09:55 the following words:
Hi,

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Leo Sauermann <leo.sauermann-7kGu3w2zD6I@public.gmane.org> wrote:
nao:Tag is for systems that just use NAO/NIE and are fine with
no-brainer solutions.
a nao:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a string. its unique. 

pimo:Tag is for systems that want to achieve a highlevel integration of
Addressbooks, Calendars, Websites, etc... into a semantic network.
pimo:Tags are then not only tags, but can be also a pimo:Person - that
is, you can use a person's name to tag something but - surprise - it is
also a person

Out of curiosity: so "pimo:Tag" is then a generic "link" between two resources?
nope, uppercase always indicates a class. if you can read N3 (afaik you do):

claudia:Belfast a pimo:City, pimo:Tag.

claudia:MeetingInBelfast a pimo:SocialEvent;
  pimo:hasTag claudia:Belfast;
  pimo:hasLocation claudia:Belfast.

as you see in this simple example, there is a "transition path" between dumb tagging and clever semantics - the city can be seen both as a Tag for the meeting but also as a location. Difference in code is: only the pimo:hasLocation is authorative enought that the code issues a google maps plugin to show the location.

today, we live in a world of dumb tags and this is fine,
above example shows how we can get to semantic web in the next years, without breaking backward compability.
  

It sounds like we could replace all properties between concepts (exclusing inheritance) as tags: "music piece belongs to an album" could be a Tag, Contact sent an email..." another tag, "Contact has postal address" another tag....

.
now clicking on the person will get more...
a pimo:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a unique string
which is also a Thing out of the real world which can have more attributes.

Then it is opening the door to all kind of "custom properties". A pimo:Tag is like a property between two things that the user can label... it sounds pretty dangerous.
hm, I think its not.... but I don't understand everything you said....

please read the section on tagging in the spec and ask again:
http://www.semanticdesktop.org/ontologies/2007/11/01/pimo/v1.1/pimo_v1.1.pdf

:-)

best
Leo

Regards,,

Ivan

_______________________________________________ people mailing list people-8FRlne0xlECvj1b/ULB3Z0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org http://lists.semanticdesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/people


-- _____________________________________________________ Dr. Leo Sauermann http://www.dfki.de/~sauermann Deutsches Forschungszentrum fuer Kuenstliche Intelligenz DFKI GmbH Trippstadter Strasse 122 P.O. Box 2080 Fon: +43 6991 gnowsis D-67663 Kaiserslautern Fax: +49 631 20575-102 Germany Mail: leo.sauermann-7kGu3w2zD6I@public.gmane.org Geschaeftsfuehrung: Prof.Dr.Dr.h.c.mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender) Dr. Walter Olthoff Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes Amtsgericht Kaiserslautern, HRB 2313 _____________________________________________________
<div>
It was Ivan Frade who said at the right time 26.09.2009 09:55 the
following words:
<blockquote cite="mid:b50f4ef30909260055n12a0469cl23753cc497ea18b0@..." type="cite">Hi,<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Leo
Sauermann <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:leo.sauermann@...">leo.sauermann@...</a>&gt;</span>
wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote">nao:Tag
is for systems that just use NAO/NIE and are fine with<br>
no-brainer solutions.<br>
a nao:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a string. its
unique.&nbsp;<br>
</blockquote>
  <blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<br>
pimo:Tag is for systems that want to achieve a highlevel integration of<br>
Addressbooks, Calendars, Websites, etc... into a semantic network.<br>
pimo:Tags are then not only tags, but can be also a pimo:Person - that<br>
is, you can use a person's name to tag something but - surprise - it is<br>
also a person</blockquote>
  <div>
<br>
Out of curiosity: so "pimo:Tag" is then a generic "link" between two
resources? <br>
</div>
  </div>
</blockquote>
nope, uppercase always indicates a class. if you can read N3 (afaik you
do):<br><br>
claudia:Belfast a pimo:City, pimo:Tag.<br><br>
claudia:MeetingInBelfast a pimo:SocialEvent;<br>
&nbsp; pimo:hasTag claudia:Belfast;<br>
&nbsp; pimo:hasLocation claudia:Belfast.<br><br>
as you see in this simple example, there is a "transition path" between
dumb tagging and clever semantics - the city can be seen both as a Tag
for the meeting but also as a location. Difference in code is: only the
pimo:hasLocation is authorative enought that the code issues a google
maps plugin to show the location.<br><br>
today, we live in a world of dumb tags and this is fine,<br>
above example shows how we can get to semantic web in the next years,
without breaking backward compability.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; <br><blockquote cite="mid:b50f4ef30909260055n12a0469cl23753cc497ea18b0@..." type="cite">
  <div class="gmail_quote">
  <div>
<br>
It sounds like we could replace all properties between concepts
(exclusing inheritance) as tags: "music piece belongs to an album"
could be a Tag, Contact sent an email..." another tag, "Contact has
postal address" another tag....<br><br>
</div>
  <blockquote class="gmail_quote">.<br>
now clicking on the person will get more...<br>
a pimo:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a unique string<br>
which is also a Thing out of the real world which can have more
attributes.<br>
</blockquote>
  <div>
<br>
Then it is opening the door to all kind of "custom properties". A
pimo:Tag is like a property between two things that the user can
label... it sounds pretty dangerous.<br>
</div>
  </div>
</blockquote>
hm, I think its not.... but I don't understand everything you said....<br><br>
please read the section on tagging in the spec and ask again:<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.semanticdesktop.org/ontologies/2007/11/01/pimo/v1.1/pimo_v1.1.pdf">http://www.semanticdesktop.org/ontologies/2007/11/01/pimo/v1.1/pimo_v1.1.pdf</a><br><br>
:-)<br><br>
best<br>
Leo<br><blockquote cite="mid:b50f4ef30909260055n12a0469cl23753cc497ea18b0@..." type="cite">
  <div class="gmail_quote">
  <div>
<br>
Regards,,<br><br>
Ivan</div>
  </div>
  <br>

_______________________________________________
people mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:people@...">people@...</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.semanticdesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/people">http://lists.semanticdesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/people</a>

</blockquote>
<br><br>-- 
_____________________________________________________
Dr. Leo Sauermann       <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.dfki.de/~sauermann">http://www.dfki.de/~sauermann</a> 

Deutsches Forschungszentrum fuer 
Kuenstliche Intelligenz DFKI GmbH
Trippstadter Strasse 122
P.O. Box 2080           Fon:   +43 6991 gnowsis
D-67663 Kaiserslautern  Fax:   +49 631 20575-102
Germany                 Mail:  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:leo.sauermann@...">leo.sauermann@...</a>

Geschaeftsfuehrung:
Prof.Dr.Dr.h.c.mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
Dr. Walter Olthoff
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
Amtsgericht Kaiserslautern, HRB 2313
_____________________________________________________

</div>
Tomás Vírseda | 29 Sep 15:14 2009
Picon

Re: pimo:Tag vs nao:Tag

Hi, thanks for all the replies, links and ideas.

Leo, check www.vazaar-project.org. There I've setup a blog with some
info about my program. Basically what I want to do is an easy personal
information manager. As an IT worker I have to collect and manage a
lot of information. I've been looking how to achieve this task for
years. First, I tried with XML but it wasnt flexible enough. Later I
discovered the Semantic Web with Dublin Core and searching a little
bit about semantic desktops I found Nepomuk which fits perfectly with
my ideas.

One of my ideas is to build a tagging system inside the program.
Before reading all your suggestions I used nao:hasTag and uniques
strings. This is a real example about how I deal with tags inside a
resource (in this case the resource it's a link to my weblog)

<nfo:Website rdf:about="vazaar://377504a0-4da8-4b1e-a453-eb86dd371e23">
    <nfo:filePath>/blog/≤/nfo:filePath>
    <nfo:fileScheme>http</nfo:fileScheme>
    <nfo:fileUrl>http://www.vazaar-project.org/blog/</nfo:fileUrl>
    <nfo:fileStatus>200</nfo:fileStatus>
    <nao:created>2009-09-28 01:19:24</nao:created>
    <nie:mimeType>text/html</nie:mimeType>
    <nao:lastModified>2009-09-28 01:19:24</nao:lastModified>
    <nfo:fileNetloc>www.vazaar-project.org</nfo:fileNetloc>
    <nie:mimeMedia>text</nie:mimeMedia>
    <nfo:fileHostname>www.vazaar-project.org</nfo:fileHostname>
    <nao:hasTag>vazaar</nao:hasTag>
    <nao:hasTag>pim</nao:hasTag>
    <nao:hasTag>pygtk</nao:hasTag>
    <nao:hasTag>python</nao:hasTag>
    <nao:hasTag>rdflib</nao:hasTag>
    <nao:hasTag>nepomuk</nao:hasTag>
    <nie:mimeSubtype>html</nie:mimeSubtype>
    <nie:title>Vazaar Project Blog</nie:title>
</nfo:Website>

I'm not happy with this solution, only. One more time I'm tagging
resources but I don't know what the tag means. Also, tags are strings
and not URIRefs. I would prefer think in tag as another resource. As
far as I read I haven't found an unified vision for tagging systems.

So, if I have understood what you say in the FAQ, I should use
pimo:Tag which allow me use other _resources_ as tags. But which
resources can become Tags? PIMO Ontology docs says that "Documents
should not be Tags by default". So I will have to define a set of
resources which are allowed to become Tags. But I'm not happy with
this solution. Even I am not sure if Documents can not be Tags aswell.
I think that if I can use a Person as Tag I should be able to use
other kind of resources.

Then, my personal solution is to combine both versions and consider
Tags as single resources. That would let the user to use strings as
tags (eg.: keywords extracted from websites) or to use other resource
in her semantic database.

From these thoughts:

<!-- tagged resource -->
<nfo:Website rdf:about="vazaar://377504a0-4da8-4b1e-a453-eb86dd371e23">
    <nie:title>Vazaar Project Blog</nie:title>
    [...]
    <nao:hasTag>vazaar://00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000</nao:hasTag>
    <nao:hasTag>vazaar://11111111-1111-1111-1111-111111111111</nao:hasTag>
    <nao:hasTag>vazaar://22222222-2222-2222-2222-222222222222</nao:hasTag>
</nfo:Website>

<!-- first tag: a string -->
<pimo:Tag rdf:about="vazaar://00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000">
    <nie:title>Personal Information Manager</nie:title>
    [...]
</pimo:Tag>

<!-- resource as tag  -->
<nfo:Website rdf:about="vazaar://11111111-1111-1111-1111-111111111111">
    <nie:title>NEPOMUK  - The Social Semantic Desktop</nie:title>
    <nfo:filePath>/xwiki/bin/view/Main1/≤/nfo:filePath>
    <nfo:fileScheme>http</nfo:fileScheme>
    <nfo:fileUrl>http://nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org/xwiki/bin/view/Main1/</nfo:fileUrl>
    <nfo:fileStatus>200</nfo:fileStatus>
    <nao:created>2009-09-29 14:29:41</nao:created>
    <nie:mimeType>text/html</nie:mimeType>
    <nao:lastModified>2009-09-29 14:29:41</nao:lastModified>
    <nfo:fileNetloc>nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org</nfo:fileNetloc>
    <nie:mimeMedia>text</nie:mimeMedia>
    <nfo:fileHostname>nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org</nfo:fileHostname>
    <nao:hasTag>vazaar://22222222-2222-2222-2222-222222222222</nao:hasTag>
    <nie:mimeSubtype>html</nie:mimeSubtype>
</nfo:Website>

<!-- other tag: a string -->
<pimo:Tag rdf:about="vazaar://22222222-2222-2222-2222-222222222222">
    <nie:title>semantic desktop</nie:title>
    [...]
</pimo:Tag>

I'm not sure if the above code fits with the specifications but it is
more or less what I have in mind. Also, I'm very interested to know if
I'm using the proper model. Reading the other replies and other
websites I've realized that there is a world of applications using
semantic web technologies (soprano in KDE, Tracker in GNOME, etc...).
One milestone of this program would be to implement a sparql endpoint
to share information.

I would like to share more ideas. Tags are not the main problem in my
project. Topics, Collections and other Things keep me very busy too.
But I'll leave them for next mails.

Regards,
Tomás Vírseda

2009/9/25 Leo Sauermann <leo.sauermann@...>
>
> Hi,
>
> as others may be interested in this discussion, I am also including xesam
> (= the ontology developers list)
>
> I was a bit slow to answer, sorry.
>
> Tomás - what are you programming? do you have a url or a blogpost about your work?
>
> nao:Tag is for systems that just use NAO/NIE and are fine with no-brainer solutions.
> a nao:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a string. its unique.
>
> pimo:Tag is for systems that want to achieve a highlevel integration of Addressbooks, Calendars,
Websites, etc... into a semantic network. pimo:Tags are then not only tags, but can be also a pimo:Person -
that is, you can use a person's name to tag something but - surprise - it is also a person.
> now clicking on the person will get more...
> a pimo:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a unique string which is also a Thing out of the real world
which can have more attributes.
>
> I also documented this here in the FAQ
> https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/oscaf/wiki/PIMO/FAQ#Whatisthedifferencebetweennao:Tagandpimo:Tag
>
> best
> Leo
>
>
>
> It was Tomás Vírseda who said at the right time 12.09.2009 23:50 the following words:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm confused about pimo:Tag and nao:Tag classes described in their
>> respective ontology. Which is the difference between these two clases?
>> I'm reading the ontologies documentation but I can't still figure out
>> how they should be used. I'm developing a tagging system in a
>> application and I would like to use Nepomuk.
>>
>> About pimo:Tag description:
>> "Tags in the context of PIMO. A marker class for Things that are used
>> to categorize documents (or other things). Tags must be a kind of
>> Thing and must have a unique label. Documents should not be Tags by
>> default."
>>
>> About nao:Tag description:
>> "This class is useful for modelling conventional tagging practices.
>> The user can tag resources in conventional ways, automatically
>> creating an instance of this tag, which is then related to the
>> annotated resource via the nao:hasTag property. For more on tagging as
>> annotation see Section 2.3.". I've read this section and the
>> explanation is very convincing.
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>> Kind regards
>>
>> --
>> Tomás Vírseda
>> _______________________________________________
>> people mailing list
>> people@...
>> http://lists.semanticdesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/people
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> _____________________________________________________
> Dr. Leo Sauermann       http://www.dfki.de/~sauermann
> Deutsches Forschungszentrum fuer Kuenstliche Intelligenz DFKI GmbH
> Trippstadter Strasse 122
> P.O. Box 2080           Fon:   +43 6991 gnowsis
> D-67663 Kaiserslautern  Fax:   +49 631 20575-102
> Germany                 Mail:  leo.sauermann@...
>
> Geschaeftsfuehrung:
> Prof.Dr.Dr.h.c.mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
> Dr. Walter Olthoff
> Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
> Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
> Amtsgericht Kaiserslautern, HRB 2313
> _____________________________________________________
>
Leo Sauermann | 30 Sep 23:06 2009
Picon

Re: pimo:Tag vs nao:Tag

Hi Tomás,

In general, your thoughts and approach is promising and you have the right problem and the right solution.
I would also give these people a look, as you are working in parallel with them and may learn something by looking what they do:
http://nepomuk.kde.org/
http://www.organise-fw.org/

details: you already found out that you shouldn't do <nao:hasTag>todo</nao:hasTag>
because the range of nao:hasTag is a resource (an instance of nao:Tag) and not a string.
reasons are given in the doc and if you look at nepomuk-kde or here
http://www.semanticdesktop.org/ontologies/nao/#2.3._Tagging_as_Annotation

once you got that running (and understood) you may start to wonder about pimo:Tag, which is again more complex.

the examples you give (with nao:hasTag 111-111 and nao:hasTag 000-000) are kind-of-ok,
but not exactly what we had in mind. nao tags are used to separate tags from documents, a document is usually not a tag.
In pimo, this is different, but we are still implementing these things as we speak,
http://dev.nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org

in general, I won't have the time to answer all your questions, but as you are on the right track, I would recommend you to join one of the existing communities around Nepomuk/Gnome/Tracker/KDE/....
there are chatrooms on freenode, mailinglists, gatherings, workshops, beer-drinking events, etc.... around all this.

once you find other people who found the same problem and use the same solution (our nepomuk eu project results) to tackle them, you will have it much easier to get your own ideas realized, i would think....

best
Leo

It was Tomás Vírseda who said at the right time 29.09.2009 15:14 the following words:
Hi, thanks for all the replies, links and ideas. Leo, check www.vazaar-project.org. There I've setup a blog with some info about my program. Basically what I want to do is an easy personal information manager. As an IT worker I have to collect and manage a lot of information. I've been looking how to achieve this task for years. First, I tried with XML but it wasnt flexible enough. Later I discovered the Semantic Web with Dublin Core and searching a little bit about semantic desktops I found Nepomuk which fits perfectly with my ideas. One of my ideas is to build a tagging system inside the program. Before reading all your suggestions I used nao:hasTag and uniques strings. This is a real example about how I deal with tags inside a resource (in this case the resource it's a link to my weblog) <nfo:Website rdf:about="vazaar://377504a0-4da8-4b1e-a453-eb86dd371e23"> <nfo:filePath>/blog/</nfo:filePath> <nfo:fileScheme>http</nfo:fileScheme> <nfo:fileUrl>http://www.vazaar-project.org/blog/</nfo:fileUrl> <nfo:fileStatus>200</nfo:fileStatus> <nao:created>2009-09-28 01:19:24</nao:created> <nie:mimeType>text/html</nie:mimeType> <nao:lastModified>2009-09-28 01:19:24</nao:lastModified> <nfo:fileNetloc>www.vazaar-project.org</nfo:fileNetloc> <nie:mimeMedia>text</nie:mimeMedia> <nfo:fileHostname>www.vazaar-project.org</nfo:fileHostname> <nao:hasTag>vazaar</nao:hasTag> <nao:hasTag>pim</nao:hasTag> <nao:hasTag>pygtk</nao:hasTag> <nao:hasTag>python</nao:hasTag> <nao:hasTag>rdflib</nao:hasTag> <nao:hasTag>nepomuk</nao:hasTag> <nie:mimeSubtype>html</nie:mimeSubtype> <nie:title>Vazaar Project Blog</nie:title> </nfo:Website> I'm not happy with this solution, only. One more time I'm tagging resources but I don't know what the tag means. Also, tags are strings and not URIRefs. I would prefer think in tag as another resource. As far as I read I haven't found an unified vision for tagging systems. So, if I have understood what you say in the FAQ, I should use pimo:Tag which allow me use other _resources_ as tags. But which resources can become Tags? PIMO Ontology docs says that "Documents should not be Tags by default". So I will have to define a set of resources which are allowed to become Tags. But I'm not happy with this solution. Even I am not sure if Documents can not be Tags aswell. I think that if I can use a Person as Tag I should be able to use other kind of resources. Then, my personal solution is to combine both versions and consider Tags as single resources. That would let the user to use strings as tags (eg.: keywords extracted from websites) or to use other resource in her semantic database. >From these thoughts: <!-- tagged resource --> <nfo:Website rdf:about="vazaar://377504a0-4da8-4b1e-a453-eb86dd371e23"> <nie:title>Vazaar Project Blog</nie:title> [...] <nao:hasTag>vazaar://00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000</nao:hasTag> <nao:hasTag>vazaar://11111111-1111-1111-1111-111111111111</nao:hasTag> <nao:hasTag>vazaar://22222222-2222-2222-2222-222222222222</nao:hasTag> </nfo:Website> <!-- first tag: a string --> <pimo:Tag rdf:about="vazaar://00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000"> <nie:title>Personal Information Manager</nie:title> [...] </pimo:Tag> <!-- resource as tag --> <nfo:Website rdf:about="vazaar://11111111-1111-1111-1111-111111111111"> <nie:title>NEPOMUK - The Social Semantic Desktop</nie:title> <nfo:filePath>/xwiki/bin/view/Main1/</nfo:filePath> <nfo:fileScheme>http</nfo:fileScheme> <nfo:fileUrl>http://nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org/xwiki/bin/view/Main1/</nfo:fileUrl> <nfo:fileStatus>200</nfo:fileStatus> <nao:created>2009-09-29 14:29:41</nao:created> <nie:mimeType>text/html</nie:mimeType> <nao:lastModified>2009-09-29 14:29:41</nao:lastModified> <nfo:fileNetloc>nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org</nfo:fileNetloc> <nie:mimeMedia>text</nie:mimeMedia> <nfo:fileHostname>nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org</nfo:fileHostname> <nao:hasTag>vazaar://22222222-2222-2222-2222-222222222222</nao:hasTag> <nie:mimeSubtype>html</nie:mimeSubtype> </nfo:Website> <!-- other tag: a string --> <pimo:Tag rdf:about="vazaar://22222222-2222-2222-2222-222222222222"> <nie:title>semantic desktop</nie:title> [...] </pimo:Tag> I'm not sure if the above code fits with the specifications but it is more or less what I have in mind. Also, I'm very interested to know if I'm using the proper model. Reading the other replies and other websites I've realized that there is a world of applications using semantic web technologies (soprano in KDE, Tracker in GNOME, etc...). One milestone of this program would be to implement a sparql endpoint to share information. I would like to share more ideas. Tags are not the main problem in my project. Topics, Collections and other Things keep me very busy too. But I'll leave them for next mails. Regards, Tomás Vírseda 2009/9/25 Leo Sauermann <leo.sauermann-7kGu3w2zD6I@public.gmane.org>
Hi, as others may be interested in this discussion, I am also including xesam (= the ontology developers list) I was a bit slow to answer, sorry. Tomás - what are you programming? do you have a url or a blogpost about your work? nao:Tag is for systems that just use NAO/NIE and are fine with no-brainer solutions. a nao:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a string. its unique. pimo:Tag is for systems that want to achieve a highlevel integration of Addressbooks, Calendars, Websites, etc... into a semantic network. pimo:Tags are then not only tags, but can be also a pimo:Person - that is, you can use a person's name to tag something but - surprise - it is also a person. now clicking on the person will get more... a pimo:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a unique string which is also a Thing out of the real world which can have more attributes. I also documented this here in the FAQ https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/oscaf/wiki/PIMO/FAQ#Whatisthedifferencebetweennao:Tagandpimo:Tag best Leo It was Tomás Vírseda who said at the right time 12.09.2009 23:50 the following words:
Hi, I'm confused about pimo:Tag and nao:Tag classes described in their respective ontology. Which is the difference between these two clases? I'm reading the ontologies documentation but I can't still figure out how they should be used. I'm developing a tagging system in a application and I would like to use Nepomuk. About pimo:Tag description: "Tags in the context of PIMO. A marker class for Things that are used to categorize documents (or other things). Tags must be a kind of Thing and must have a unique label. Documents should not be Tags by default." About nao:Tag description: "This class is useful for modelling conventional tagging practices. The user can tag resources in conventional ways, automatically creating an instance of this tag, which is then related to the annotated resource via the nao:hasTag property. For more on tagging as annotation see Section 2.3.". I've read this section and the explanation is very convincing. Thanks in advance. Kind regards -- Tomás Vírseda _______________________________________________ people mailing list people-8FRlne0xlECvj1b/ULB3Z0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org http://lists.semanticdesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/people
-- _____________________________________________________ Dr. Leo Sauermann       http://www.dfki.de/~sauermann Deutsches Forschungszentrum fuer Kuenstliche Intelligenz DFKI GmbH Trippstadter Strasse 122 P.O. Box 2080           Fon:   +43 6991 gnowsis D-67663 Kaiserslautern  Fax:   +49 631 20575-102 Germany                 Mail:  leo.sauermann-7kGu3w2zD6I@public.gmane.org Geschaeftsfuehrung: Prof.Dr.Dr.h.c.mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender) Dr. Walter Olthoff Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes Amtsgericht Kaiserslautern, HRB 2313 _____________________________________________________


-- _____________________________________________________ Dr. Leo Sauermann http://www.dfki.de/~sauermann Deutsches Forschungszentrum fuer Kuenstliche Intelligenz DFKI GmbH Trippstadter Strasse 122 P.O. Box 2080 Fon: +43 6991 gnowsis D-67663 Kaiserslautern Fax: +49 631 20575-102 Germany Mail: leo.sauermann-7kGu3w2zD6I@public.gmane.org Geschaeftsfuehrung: Prof.Dr.Dr.h.c.mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender) Dr. Walter Olthoff Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes Amtsgericht Kaiserslautern, HRB 2313 _____________________________________________________
<div>
Hi Tom&aacute;s,<br><br>
In general, your thoughts and approach is promising and you have the
right problem and the right solution.<br>
I would also give these people a look, as you are working in parallel
with them and may learn something by looking what they do:<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://nepomuk.kde.org/">http://nepomuk.kde.org/</a><br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.organise-fw.org/">http://www.organise-fw.org/</a><br><br>
details: you already found out that you shouldn't do
&lt;nao:hasTag&gt;todo&lt;/nao:hasTag&gt;<br>
because the range of nao:hasTag is a resource (an instance of nao:Tag)
and not a string.<br>
reasons are given in the doc and if you look at nepomuk-kde or here<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.semanticdesktop.org/ontologies/nao/#2.3._Tagging_as_Annotation">http://www.semanticdesktop.org/ontologies/nao/#2.3._Tagging_as_Annotation</a><br><br>
once you got that running (and understood) you may start to wonder
about pimo:Tag, which is again more complex.<br><br>
the examples you give (with nao:hasTag 111-111 and nao:hasTag 000-000)
are kind-of-ok,<br>
but not exactly what we had in mind. nao tags are used to separate tags
from documents, a document is usually not a tag.<br>
In pimo, this is different, but we are still implementing these things
as we speak,<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://dev.nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org">http://dev.nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org</a><br><br>
in general, I won't have the time to answer all your questions, but as
you are on the right track, I would recommend you to join one of the
existing communities around Nepomuk/Gnome/Tracker/KDE/....<br>
there are chatrooms on freenode, mailinglists, gatherings, workshops,
beer-drinking events, etc.... around all this.<br><br>
once you find other people who found the same problem and use the same
solution (our nepomuk eu project results) to tackle them, you will have
it much easier to get your own ideas realized, i would think....<br><br>
best<br>
Leo<br><br>
It was Tom&aacute;s V&iacute;rseda who said at the right time 29.09.2009 15:14 the
following words:
<blockquote cite="mid:ee37a4020909290614o5d98f8d1m336a58d902d8126b@..." type="cite">
  Hi, thanks for all the replies, links and ideas.

Leo, check <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.vazaar-project.org">www.vazaar-project.org</a>. There I've setup a blog with some
info about my program. Basically what I want to do is an easy personal
information manager. As an IT worker I have to collect and manage a
lot of information. I've been looking how to achieve this task for
years. First, I tried with XML but it wasnt flexible enough. Later I
discovered the Semantic Web with Dublin Core and searching a little
bit about semantic desktops I found Nepomuk which fits perfectly with
my ideas.

One of my ideas is to build a tagging system inside the program.
Before reading all your suggestions I used nao:hasTag and uniques
strings. This is a real example about how I deal with tags inside a
resource (in this case the resource it's a link to my weblog)

&lt;nfo:Website rdf:about="vazaar://377504a0-4da8-4b1e-a453-eb86dd371e23"&gt;
    &lt;nfo:filePath&gt;/blog/&lt;/nfo:filePath&gt;
    &lt;nfo:fileScheme&gt;http&lt;/nfo:fileScheme&gt;
    &lt;nfo:fileUrl&gt;<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.vazaar-project.org/blog/">http://www.vazaar-project.org/blog/</a>&lt;/nfo:fileUrl&gt;
    &lt;nfo:fileStatus&gt;200&lt;/nfo:fileStatus&gt;
    &lt;nao:created&gt;2009-09-28 01:19:24&lt;/nao:created&gt;
    &lt;nie:mimeType&gt;text/html&lt;/nie:mimeType&gt;
    &lt;nao:lastModified&gt;2009-09-28 01:19:24&lt;/nao:lastModified&gt;
    &lt;nfo:fileNetloc&gt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.vazaar-project.org">www.vazaar-project.org</a>&lt;/nfo:fileNetloc&gt;
    &lt;nie:mimeMedia&gt;text&lt;/nie:mimeMedia&gt;
    &lt;nfo:fileHostname&gt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.vazaar-project.org">www.vazaar-project.org</a>&lt;/nfo:fileHostname&gt;
    &lt;nao:hasTag&gt;vazaar&lt;/nao:hasTag&gt;
    &lt;nao:hasTag&gt;pim&lt;/nao:hasTag&gt;
    &lt;nao:hasTag&gt;pygtk&lt;/nao:hasTag&gt;
    &lt;nao:hasTag&gt;python&lt;/nao:hasTag&gt;
    &lt;nao:hasTag&gt;rdflib&lt;/nao:hasTag&gt;
    &lt;nao:hasTag&gt;nepomuk&lt;/nao:hasTag&gt;
    &lt;nie:mimeSubtype&gt;html&lt;/nie:mimeSubtype&gt;
    &lt;nie:title&gt;Vazaar Project Blog&lt;/nie:title&gt;
&lt;/nfo:Website&gt;

I'm not happy with this solution, only. One more time I'm tagging
resources but I don't know what the tag means. Also, tags are strings
and not URIRefs. I would prefer think in tag as another resource. As
far as I read I haven't found an unified vision for tagging systems.

So, if I have understood what you say in the FAQ, I should use
pimo:Tag which allow me use other _resources_ as tags. But which
resources can become Tags? PIMO Ontology docs says that "Documents
should not be Tags by default". So I will have to define a set of
resources which are allowed to become Tags. But I'm not happy with
this solution. Even I am not sure if Documents can not be Tags aswell.
I think that if I can use a Person as Tag I should be able to use
other kind of resources.

Then, my personal solution is to combine both versions and consider
Tags as single resources. That would let the user to use strings as
tags (eg.: keywords extracted from websites) or to use other resource
in her semantic database.

&gt;From these thoughts:

&lt;!-- tagged resource --&gt;
&lt;nfo:Website rdf:about="vazaar://377504a0-4da8-4b1e-a453-eb86dd371e23"&gt;
    &lt;nie:title&gt;Vazaar Project Blog&lt;/nie:title&gt;
    [...]
    &lt;nao:hasTag&gt;vazaar://00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&lt;/nao:hasTag&gt;
    &lt;nao:hasTag&gt;vazaar://11111111-1111-1111-1111-111111111111&lt;/nao:hasTag&gt;
    &lt;nao:hasTag&gt;vazaar://22222222-2222-2222-2222-222222222222&lt;/nao:hasTag&gt;
&lt;/nfo:Website&gt;

&lt;!-- first tag: a string --&gt;
&lt;pimo:Tag rdf:about="vazaar://00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000"&gt;
    &lt;nie:title&gt;Personal Information Manager&lt;/nie:title&gt;
    [...]
&lt;/pimo:Tag&gt;

&lt;!-- resource as tag  --&gt;
&lt;nfo:Website rdf:about="vazaar://11111111-1111-1111-1111-111111111111"&gt;
    &lt;nie:title&gt;NEPOMUK  - The Social Semantic Desktop&lt;/nie:title&gt;
    &lt;nfo:filePath&gt;/xwiki/bin/view/Main1/&lt;/nfo:filePath&gt;
    &lt;nfo:fileScheme&gt;http&lt;/nfo:fileScheme&gt;
    &lt;nfo:fileUrl&gt;<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org/xwiki/bin/view/Main1/">http://nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org/xwiki/bin/view/Main1/</a>&lt;/nfo:fileUrl&gt;
    &lt;nfo:fileStatus&gt;200&lt;/nfo:fileStatus&gt;
    &lt;nao:created&gt;2009-09-29 14:29:41&lt;/nao:created&gt;
    &lt;nie:mimeType&gt;text/html&lt;/nie:mimeType&gt;
    &lt;nao:lastModified&gt;2009-09-29 14:29:41&lt;/nao:lastModified&gt;
    &lt;nfo:fileNetloc&gt;nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org&lt;/nfo:fileNetloc&gt;
    &lt;nie:mimeMedia&gt;text&lt;/nie:mimeMedia&gt;
    &lt;nfo:fileHostname&gt;nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org&lt;/nfo:fileHostname&gt;
    &lt;nao:hasTag&gt;vazaar://22222222-2222-2222-2222-222222222222&lt;/nao:hasTag&gt;
    &lt;nie:mimeSubtype&gt;html&lt;/nie:mimeSubtype&gt;
&lt;/nfo:Website&gt;

&lt;!-- other tag: a string --&gt;
&lt;pimo:Tag rdf:about="vazaar://22222222-2222-2222-2222-222222222222"&gt;
    &lt;nie:title&gt;semantic desktop&lt;/nie:title&gt;
    [...]
&lt;/pimo:Tag&gt;

I'm not sure if the above code fits with the specifications but it is
more or less what I have in mind. Also, I'm very interested to know if
I'm using the proper model. Reading the other replies and other
websites I've realized that there is a world of applications using
semantic web technologies (soprano in KDE, Tracker in GNOME, etc...).
One milestone of this program would be to implement a sparql endpoint
to share information.

I would like to share more ideas. Tags are not the main problem in my
project. Topics, Collections and other Things keep me very busy too.
But I'll leave them for next mails.

Regards,
Tom&aacute;s V&iacute;rseda

2009/9/25 Leo Sauermann <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:leo.sauermann@...">&lt;leo.sauermann@...&gt;</a>

  <blockquote type="cite">
    Hi,

as others may be interested in this discussion, I am also including xesam
(= the ontology developers list)

I was a bit slow to answer, sorry.

Tom&aacute;s - what are you programming? do you have a url or a blogpost about your work?

nao:Tag is for systems that just use NAO/NIE and are fine with no-brainer solutions.
a nao:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a string. its unique.

pimo:Tag is for systems that want to achieve a highlevel integration of Addressbooks, Calendars, Websites, etc... into a semantic network. pimo:Tags are then not only tags, but can be also a pimo:Person - that is, you can use a person's name to tag something but - surprise - it is also a person.
now clicking on the person will get more...
a pimo:Tag has the semantic meaning of : the tag is a unique string which is also a Thing out of the real world which can have more attributes.

I also documented this here in the FAQ
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/oscaf/wiki/PIMO/FAQ#Whatisthedifferencebetweennao:Tagandpimo:Tag">https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/oscaf/wiki/PIMO/FAQ#Whatisthedifferencebetweennao:Tagandpimo:Tag</a>

best
Leo

It was Tom&aacute;s V&iacute;rseda who said at the right time 12.09.2009 23:50 the following words:

    <blockquote type="cite">
      Hi,

I'm confused about pimo:Tag and nao:Tag classes described in their
respective ontology. Which is the difference between these two clases?
I'm reading the ontologies documentation but I can't still figure out
how they should be used. I'm developing a tagging system in a
application and I would like to use Nepomuk.

About pimo:Tag description:
"Tags in the context of PIMO. A marker class for Things that are used
to categorize documents (or other things). Tags must be a kind of
Thing and must have a unique label. Documents should not be Tags by
default."

About nao:Tag description:
"This class is useful for modelling conventional tagging practices.
The user can tag resources in conventional ways, automatically
creating an instance of this tag, which is then related to the
annotated resource via the nao:hasTag property. For more on tagging as
annotation see Section 2.3.". I've read this section and the
explanation is very convincing.

Thanks in advance.
Kind regards

--
Tom&aacute;s V&iacute;rseda
_______________________________________________
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    </blockquote>

--
_____________________________________________________
Dr. Leo Sauermann &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.dfki.de/~sauermann">http://www.dfki.de/~sauermann</a>
Deutsches Forschungszentrum fuer Kuenstliche Intelligenz DFKI GmbH
Trippstadter Strasse 122
P.O. Box 2080 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fon: &nbsp; +43 6991 gnowsis
D-67663 Kaiserslautern &nbsp;Fax: &nbsp; +49 631 20575-102
Germany &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mail: &nbsp;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:leo.sauermann@...">leo.sauermann@...</a>

Geschaeftsfuehrung:
Prof.Dr.Dr.h.c.mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
Dr. Walter Olthoff
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
Amtsgericht Kaiserslautern, HRB 2313
_____________________________________________________

    
  </blockquote>

  
</blockquote>
<br><br>-- 
_____________________________________________________
Dr. Leo Sauermann       <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.dfki.de/~sauermann">http://www.dfki.de/~sauermann</a> 

Deutsches Forschungszentrum fuer 
Kuenstliche Intelligenz DFKI GmbH
Trippstadter Strasse 122
P.O. Box 2080           Fon:   +43 6991 gnowsis
D-67663 Kaiserslautern  Fax:   +49 631 20575-102
Germany                 Mail:  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:leo.sauermann@...">leo.sauermann@...</a>

Geschaeftsfuehrung:
Prof.Dr.Dr.h.c.mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
Dr. Walter Olthoff
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
Amtsgericht Kaiserslautern, HRB 2313
_____________________________________________________

</div>

Gmane