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Alexander Wilms | 12 Jun 2012 16:03
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Are you okay with those new default styles?

Hi everyone,

would anyone object against Cedric including this as new default (empty) 
template:

      http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Avantgarde.ott

      Alex

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Stefan Knorr (Astron | 12 Jun 2012 16:20

Re: Are you okay with those new default styles?

Hi Alex,

Overall: great. I like the coloured accent very much.

There are a couple things, though:

#1 Would you mind removing the small-caps from the headlines? These
aren't font-provided small caps, but forced ones whose proportions
differ from what a typographer would provide with a font (i. e. their
lines are two thin for the given font size) – long story short,
typographers would hate us for doing this in our defaults
#2 The difference between Heading 1 and Heading 2 font size is too
large – make Heading 2 and 3 larger, please
#3 Heading and Heading 1 have some marginal difference in appearance,
although it looks like there should be none at all
#4 Looking at the distance (kerning) between the "a" and the "d" in
"Heading 1," it seems the DejaVu Light font is not quite ready for
primetime, can you revert to normal DejaVu (which looks better)?
#5 Heading 4 to 10 should surely have larger font sizes (Heading 6 has
a 9pt font size, much smaller than the body text!)
#6 Signature uses FreeSans, not DejaVu/Liberation Serif

Hope that helps,

Astron.

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Niklas Johansson | 12 Jun 2012 19:55
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Re: Are you okay with those new default styles?

Hi

I love it that someone finely started to look at the default styles. 
There are much
room for improvement. Besides Astrons comments I'd like to ask:

Before I begin I'd like to say that I think there are a lot of potential 
in this template.
Keep that in mind if I start to sound bitter. :)

There are a lot of changes to styles hidden in this template. How would 
you feel
about starting with smaller steps? Could you start from a clean document 
and
just change what you want to update?

Do we really want numbered headings (Outline Numbering) as default? If I 
were to
write a simple letter or document I definitely wouldn't want that. To me 
that belongs
to books, reports and longer documents that most likely will be created 
using a template.
If we want to keep the Outline Numbering could we add a space separator 
after the
numbering so that when adding a table of contents you at least get a 
space after the
chapter numbering.

Why so much distance between paragraphs in the paragraph styles Contents 
1-10
(Continue reading)

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Olivier Hallot | 12 Jun 2012 20:11
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Re: Are you okay with those new default styles?

Hi
Sorry to jump in so late, I am a bit scared if I undestand this template as
"all my new documents will be based on this template".

First, the choice of fonts and colors are a matter of taste, which is an
endless debate...

Second, - I have not tested -  LO may warn me that my legacy documents have
new default template and ask for an update. If this is true, this will be a
shoot in the head of document preservation.

Did I get it totally wrong? Please enlight me.

regards

Olivier

2012/6/12 Alexander Wilms <alexander.wilms <at> zoho.com>

> Hi everyone,
>
> would anyone object against Cedric including this as new default (empty)
> template:
>
>
>     http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/File:**Avantgarde.ott<http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Avantgarde.ott>
>
>     Alex
>
>
(Continue reading)

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Stefan Knorr (Astron | 12 Jun 2012 20:19

Re: Are you okay with those new default styles?

Hi Olivier,

> First, the choice of fonts and colors are a matter of taste, which is an
> endless debate...

Sure, yet... staying with Arial and TNR, aping Office 2000 is not
really an option either, though.

> Second, - I have not tested -  LO may warn me that my legacy documents have
> new default template and ask for an update. If this is true, this will be a
> shoot in the head of document preservation.

That's an interesting (theoretical) problem – can you test, please, though?
My logic says, this shouldn't happen, also, the styles are usually
embedded within the document.

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Niklas Johansson | 12 Jun 2012 21:01
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Re: Are you okay with those new default styles?

Stefan Knorr (Astron) skrev 2012-06-12 20:19:
> Hi Olivier,
>
>> First, the choice of fonts and colors are a matter of taste, which is an
>> endless debate...
> Sure, yet... staying with Arial and TNR, aping Office 2000 is not
> really an option either, though.
>
>> Second, - I have not tested -  LO may warn me that my legacy documents have
>> new default template and ask for an update. If this is true, this will be a
>> shoot in the head of document preservation.
> That's an interesting (theoretical) problem – can you test, please, though?
> My logic says, this shouldn't happen, also, the styles are usually
> embedded within the document.
Nothing will happen to our current documents since none of them are 
based on the
Avantgarde.ott template. Though if we want to make any changes to 
Avantgarde.ott
templates later and keep the name and location of the template - then 
the user will
get a question if he/she wants to update the styles. We need to avoid that.

Hmm... Interesting, it seems that it does not even have to be in the 
same location
just in one of the installed paths or set as default template.

I have no idea what happens if we change one of the "built in styles" 
which is the
long term goal as I understand it.
(Continue reading)

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Olivier Hallot | 12 Jun 2012 21:30
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Re: Are you okay with those new default styles?

Hi

2012/6/12 Niklas Johansson <sleeping.pillow <at> gmail.com>

> Stefan Knorr (Astron) skrev 2012-06-12 20:19:
>
>  Hi Olivier,
>>
>>  First, the choice of fonts and colors are a matter of taste, which is an
>>> endless debate...
>>>
>> Sure, yet... staying with Arial and TNR, aping Office 2000 is not
>> really an option either, though.
>>
>>  Second, - I have not tested -  LO may warn me that my legacy documents
>>> have
>>> new default template and ask for an update. If this is true, this will
>>> be a
>>> shoot in the head of document preservation.
>>>
>> That's an interesting (theoretical) problem – can you test, please,
>> though?
>> My logic says, this shouldn't happen, also, the styles are usually
>> embedded within the document.
>>
> Nothing will happen to our current documents since none of them are based
> on the
> Avantgarde.ott template. Though if we want to make any changes to
> Avantgarde.ott
> templates later and keep the name and location of the template - then the
(Continue reading)

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Niklas Johansson | 14 Jun 2012 10:49
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Re: Are you okay with those new default styles?

Olivier Hallot skrev 2012-06-12 21:30:
> The only attributes you can change on the built-in styles are in Tools -
> Options - Writer - Basic fonts. When changing them, all new documents based
> on the default template will carry the changes.
Forgot to look there before.

And there we got the Callibri font for lists, captions and indexes. Of 
course for default styles this is were we need to specify what font we 
want to use, not directly in the style. Since the styles Heading 1, 
Heading 2 etc. isn't based on the style Heading a change of Heading 
style in the options dialog will have no effect on Heading 1 etc. We 
probably don't want to break this functionality this way.

Oh I noticed another problem. The outline level of Heading 1 is Body 
text, Heading 2 has level 1, Heading 3 has level 2 etc... In other words 
Avantgarde.ott uses Heading 1 as Heading, Heading 2 as Heading 1 etc.

Regards,
Niklas Johansson

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Greg | 12 Jun 2012 22:29
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Re: Are you okay with those new default styles?

> Hi everyone,
> 
> would anyone object against Cedric including this as new default (empty)
> template:
> 
> 
>       http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Avantgarde.ott
> 
>       Alex
Hi,

I object to the use of serif fonts for default. It's the first thing I change. 
Is it an American obsession? in Europe, a larger proportion of  magazines with 
typographical insight, use sans serif for body text nowadays.

I know all the well trodden but generally evidence sparse arguments for serif 
body fonts. The argument is at least as much about the aesthetic as it is 
about the physiological and psychological aspects of readability. In fact, on 
most screens sans is more readable than serif. I'd happily coexist with the 
serif-ims, if only they wouldn't always impose their creed on us sans-ites. I 
suggest we have two equivalent templates (one sans and one serif) and make 
template choice easier (it's not a great UX at the moment). That way both 
camps could be satisfied

Cheers,

Greg
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Mirek M. | 14 Jun 2012 01:36
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Re: Are you okay with those new default styles?

Hi Alex,

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Alexander Wilms
<alexander.wilms <at> zoho.com>wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> would anyone object against Cedric including this as new default (empty)
> template:
>
>
>     http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Avantgarde.ott
>

Based on a quick review, I found a number of problems with it, the biggest
of which are the fonts.
Calibri is used quite often. The default template, of course, shouldn't use
it, as it's proprietary and available to only those who install MS Office
2007+.
Here's a list of styles this font appears in: Bibliography 1, Caption,
Contents 3-10, Drawing, Illustration Index 1, Index, Index 1-3, Index
Separator, all of List (except Headings, Content, Indent, and Paragraph),
all Numbering, Object Index 1, Table, Table Index 1, Text, and User Index
1-10.
Additionally, we shouldn't use DejaVu fonts as they aren't
metric-compatible with Times, Arial, or Courier New.
DejaVu Sans appears in: Bibliography Heading, Contents Heading, Heading,
Heading 1, Illustration Index Heading, Index Heading, Object Index Heading,
Preformatted Text, Table Index Heading, and User Index Heading.
We have the same problem with FreeSans, which is only used in the Signature
(Continue reading)

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Jean-Francois Nifenecker | 20 Jun 2012 21:37
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Re: Are you okay with those new default styles?

Le 14/06/2012 01:36, Mirek M. a écrit :
>
> Another bother: font sizes.
> It's quite annoying that headings 6-10 look identical, which means the
> hierarchy doesn't get across. Adding fuel to the fire, the text below
> headings 4-10 is actually bigger than the headings themselves. The
> numbering before headings 2-4 and non-integer font sizes also bother me.
> I'd suggest font size 24 for Heading 1, then, for the rest of the headings,
> font sizes from 20 to 12, steadily decreasing by one (i.e. H2: 20, H3: 19,
> H4: 18, ...).

Shouldn't font sizes be better specified using percentages for linked 
styles? This allows for fast global changes.

-- 
Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

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