Discussions on design and artwork for LibreOffice ()

Christoph Noack | 30 Nov 2010 23:06

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Initial icon design

Hi Bernhard,

good point ... 

Am Dienstag, den 30.11.2010, 01:03 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
> Sorry for being unclear - my question is: Why can't we use the same 
> icons for application and documents?
> 
> Who needs to differ between application and document? 

Well, as I said, it is common to provide different application icons -
but you are right that we do have a "special case". There is almost no
(at least, I don't know about any) application that is a) one
application, that b) provides different modules, and that c) supports
that many file formats.

Just a side note (I forgot to add this in my last mail): The document
symbol is - of course - also a "promotional" / "branding" element. But
this would be kept for case "a".

Finally, as we say in German (you know), "special problems require
special solutions" 

Given the fact, that time is running ... I'm totally fine with that. So
as far as I understand, we end up with:
      * 1 LibreOffice main icon (derived from the document symbol)
      * n LibreOffice document icons = application icons
      * n LibreOffice document template icons

Correct?

(Continue reading)

Jaron Kuppers | 30 Nov 2010 23:40

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Initial icon design

Hi Christoph and Bernhard,

Just one small comment, I joined the group halfway through the current email
thread so I may have missed something.  In regards to what Christoph wrote:

On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Christoph Noack <christoph <at> dogmatux.com>wrote:

> Given the fact, that time is running ... I'm totally fine with that. So
> as far as I understand, we end up with:
>      * 1 LibreOffice main icon (derived from the document symbol)
>      * n LibreOffice document icons = application icons
>      * n LibreOffice document template icons
>

My preference would be that the "Document" icons [1] be both the
"application" and "document" icons (as opposed to the current "Application"
icons being both).

Cheers,
Jaron

[1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Draft1_2.png

P.S. For those of you who don't know me, I contributed to the OOo UX
experience group in the past and recently switched over to help here at
Libre office.

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(Continue reading)

Dr. Bernhard Dippold | 1 Dec 2010 00:07

Picon

[libreoffice-design] Re: Initial icon design

Hi Jaron, *

great to have you here 

Jaron Kuppers wrote:
> [...]
> On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Christoph Noack <christoph <at> dogmatux.com>wrote:
> 
> > Given the fact, that time is running ... I'm totally fine with that. So
> > as far as I understand, we end up with:
> >      * 1 LibreOffice main icon (derived from the document symbol)
> >      * n LibreOffice document icons = application icons
> >      * n LibreOffice document template icons
> >
> 
> My preference would be that the "Document" icons [1] be both the
> "application" and "document" icons (as opposed to the current "Application"
> icons being both).

That's my preference too - they are better readable, lighter in color and due to the 
difference between light content and dark border a better reference to the TDF symbol.

Best regards

Bernhard
> 
> [1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Draft1_2.png

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(Continue reading)

Christoph Noack | 1 Dec 2010 00:54

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Initial icon design

Hi Jaron,

nice to have you (somehow) back  Sorry for not being more talkative,
but it is already that late ... so, see you tomorrow!

Cheers,
Christoph

Am Dienstag, den 30.11.2010, 17:40 -0500 schrieb Jaron Kuppers:
> P.S. For those of you who don't know me, I contributed to the OOo UX
> experience group in the past and recently switched over to help here
> at Libre office. 

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Christoph Noack | 6 Dec 2010 00:05

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Initial icon design

Hi all1

Am Mittwoch, den 01.12.2010, 00:54 +0100 schrieb Christoph Noack:
> Sorry for not being more talkative,
> but it is already that late ... so, see you tomorrow! 

Well, tomorrow already passed, sorry! There was some unexpected private
stuff that heavily "disturbed" the work on LibO. Grrr.

This mail is about the MIME type icons - but this time, I don't want to
share another draft, I'd rather like to summarize the current status of
the discussion.

Thus, I created a page below my user page and tried to collect the
drafts, statements, requirements, discussion, ... If there is anything
missing, please don't hesitate to make heavy use of it (add, move, ...).

One thing you might notice is another proposal "Rework ODF icons Set".
You might agree that the ODF icons are a complete set that are visually
pleasing - the main "problem" is the missing distinctiveness when it
comes to the different file types. Since they are very similar (the gray
shades) to the LibreOffice branding, they may serve as a starting point
for an initial set.

Thus, I picked some of the available PNGs and tweaked them - adding
colored badges (e.g. Yellow ODG for Draw, Blue ODT for Writer), and also
added the same color to the objects within the icons (very subtle).
Personally, I think it would serve as a great interim solution - but at
the moment I'm uncertain about the license. Therefore I hesitate to
share them, until this is clarified.

(Continue reading)

Bernhard Dippold | 6 Dec 2010 00:51

Picon

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Initial icon design

Hi Christoph, all

Christoph Noack schrieb:
> [...]
>
> This mail is about the MIME type icons - but this time, I don't want to
> share another draft, I'd rather like to summarize the current status of
> the discussion.
>
> Thus, I created a page below my user page and tried to collect the
> drafts, statements, requirements, discussion, ... If there is anything
> missing, please don't hesitate to make heavy use of it (add, move, ...).

Thank you very much for this effort.
>
> One thing you might notice is another proposal "Rework ODF icons Set".
> You might agree that the ODF icons are a complete set that are visually
> pleasing - the main "problem" is the missing distinctiveness when it
> comes to the different file types. Since they are very similar (the gray
> shades) to the LibreOffice branding, they may serve as a starting point
> for an initial set.
>
> Thus, I picked some of the available PNGs and tweaked them - adding
> colored badges (e.g. Yellow ODG for Draw, Blue ODT for Writer), and also
> added the same color to the objects within the icons (very subtle).
> Personally, I think it would serve as a great interim solution - but at
> the moment I'm uncertain about the license. Therefore I hesitate to
> share them, until this is clarified.

It's what we proposed on the OOo UX list more than one year ago ...

(Continue reading)

Bernhard Dippold | 7 Dec 2010 16:51

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Initial icon design

Hi all,

I created first versions of Writer icons in different sizes and uploaded 
them to the wiki:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding/Mimetype_Icons/Proposals#Bernhard_Dippold

(I didn't want to mess around on Christoph's User page, therefore 
uploaded these icons to the proposals page - Christoph, do you want to 
move this page to a public area: 
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:ChristophNoack/Initial_MIME_Icons ?)

While the document/application icons might work even in small sizes, 
they are not easy to discriminate from the template icons, when they use 
the same color for their borders. Removing the unfolded corner in the 
16x16 icon changes the visual impression too much IMHO (last icon in the 
second line)

Following Christoph's proposal I changed the color of the template icon 
borders to grey.

Do you think this works better?

Are these icons too colorless (reminding myself at the ODF icons...)?

Thoughts ? Opinions ?

Do you want me to go on with this design working on the other mimetype 
icons? (Or is anybody interested to help me - not much more than C&P in 
Inkscape ?)

(Continue reading)

Björn Balazs | 7 Dec 2010 17:11

Picon

Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Initial icon design

Hi all,

following the icon discussion for only a couple of I days, I don't know the 
main intention for the icon design. 

If you would like to understand what users like and understand best, I can 
offer that we conduct an icon test [1] with a set of icon suggestions.

Could that be helpful to foster the discussion?

Best,
Björn

[1] http://www.icon-test.com

Am Dienstag, 7. Dezember 2010, 16:51:06 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
> Hi all,
> 
> I created first versions of Writer icons in different sizes and uploaded
> them to the wiki:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding/Mimetype_Icons/Proposa
> ls#Bernhard_Dippold
> 
> (I didn't want to mess around on Christoph's User page, therefore
> uploaded these icons to the proposals page - Christoph, do you want to
> move this page to a public area:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:ChristophNoack/Initial_MIME_Icons ?)
> 
> While the document/application icons might work even in small sizes,
> they are not easy to discriminate from the template icons, when they use

(Continue reading)

Bernhard Dippold | 7 Dec 2010 17:49

Picon

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Initial icon design

Hi Björn,

Björn Balazs schrieb:
> Hi all,
>
> following the icon discussion for only a couple of I days, I don't know the
> main intention for the icon design.

The present design is meant to replace the OOo galaxy icon theme 
included in LibO until now.

We want to provide our own icons in LibO 3.3.0 so people don't think 
LibreOffice is just an old-fashioned version of OpenOffice.org, because 
it contains the icons OOo used only until version 3.2.0.

As we already released the first release candidate for LibO 3.3.0 time 
is extremely short: We probably don't have much more than a few days to 
create our own icon set and include it in the package.

There will very likely be a second release candidate, but nobody knows, 
if we need a third one...

Therefore we decided to create an "initial icon set" that should be 
replaced by a "community icon set" for LibO 3.4 or LibO 3.5.

This version will be discussed thoroughly - like the "community branding 
design" that will replace our present "initial branding design" at the 
same time.

For the community design your idea of an icon test will probably be

(Continue reading)

Björn Balazs | 7 Dec 2010 18:23

Picon

Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Initial icon design

Hi Bernhard,

Am Dienstag, 7. Dezember 2010, 17:49:31 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
> > following the icon discussion for only a couple of I days, I don't know
> > the main intention for the icon design.
> 
> The present design is meant to replace the OOo galaxy icon theme
> included in LibO until now.
> 
> We want to provide our own icons in LibO 3.3.0 so people don't think
> LibreOffice is just an old-fashioned version of OpenOffice.org, because
> it contains the icons OOo used only until version 3.2.0.
> 
> As we already released the first release candidate for LibO 3.3.0 time
> is extremely short: We probably don't have much more than a few days to
> create our own icon set and include it in the package.
> 
> There will very likely be a second release candidate, but nobody knows,
> if we need a third one...
>
> Therefore we decided to create an "initial icon set" that should be
> replaced by a "community icon set" for LibO 3.4 or LibO 3.5.
> 
> This version will be discussed thoroughly - like the "community branding
> design" that will replace our present "initial branding design" at the
> same time.
> 
> For the community design your idea of an icon test will probably be
> considered - for the time being we don't have enough time...

(Continue reading)

Christoph Noack | 8 Dec 2010 00:39

Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Initial icon design

Hi Björn!

Thanks for your offer to help with the icons ... this is absolutely
great and a real improvement in comparison to the "old days" 

Am Dienstag, den 07.12.2010, 18:23 +0100 schrieb Björn Balazs:
> Don't want to get on your nerves with that - just want to show that it
> could be quicker to find a solution by means of user based voting than
> by a rational discussions under experts.

Well, I think that the icon metaphors itself aren't the real problem -
given the current time constraints. There is some symbolism we might
even consider as "common"/"accepted"/"acceptable". It is rather to come
up with something that emphasizes LibreOffice and keeping the known
symbols ... personally, I still tend to (again: given the current time
constraints) adapt the ODF icons.

But since I miss the time to discuss that now, I have no vote 

Finally, if we agree on something for LibO 3.3, a quick test (having
enough time left for improvements) would be great. Personally, I do hate
the "do it quick" thing, but at the moment many of the options seem to
be better then to a) ship icons that incorporate completely different
branding visuals (OOo gulls, Sun S-curve), or b) ship icons that are
known to be not accepted at all (plain ODF icons).

> In any way - we can do icon testing with the next - community -
> version. 

Definitively. Thanks again!!!

(Continue reading)

Bernhard Dippold | 7 Dec 2010 20:48

Picon

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Initial icon design

Hi again...

I updated my template draft...

Bernhard Dippold schrieb:
> [...]
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding/Mimetype_Icons/Proposals#Bernhard_Dippold

Please refresh your cache 
>
>
> [...]
>
> While the document/application icons might work even in small sizes,
> they are not easy to discriminate from the template icons, when they use
> the same color for their borders. Removing the unfolded corner in the
> 16x16 icon changes the visual impression too much IMHO (last icon in the
> second line)
>
> Following Christoph's proposal I changed the color of the template icon
> borders to grey.

Now the templates combine the grey border with a colored corner (filled 
like the TDF icon and the app/doc icons).

This improves color recognition and keeps consistency with the branding.

Any comments?

I'm working on the Calc icons now...

(Continue reading)

Seb | 7 Dec 2010 22:56

Picon

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Initial icon design

Hi,
Sorry for just jumping in, perhaps this has been discussed before, but
why are we trying to make MIME type icons?

MIME types icons should have nothing to do with the application used
to create your files. That would be a bit like Firefox or Chrome
bundling in their own icon for html documents. MIME icons are usually
decide at the OS level (or Desktop environment Unix systems) or by the
organization responsible for the file format.  The fact is Windows
will have it's own icons while Gnome, KDE, Haiku, AROS and what not
might choose somthing else that fit their visual style better. This
should be our job.

Also Bernhard mentions the the goal is "to replace the OOo galaxy icon
theme".  Galaxy icons are UI icons aren't they? So we shouldn't we be
working on icons like those found here
http://ui.openoffice.org/VisualDesign/OOo_galaxy.html ?

Also there seems to be confusion about application and MIME type
icons. Sure we need to make and icons for each product(writer, calc,
etc.) But they don't have to look like a document. They can look like
anything.

Seb.

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 6:48 AM, Bernhard Dippold
<bernhard <at> familie-dippold.at> wrote:
> Hi again...
>
> I updated my template draft...

(Continue reading)

Bernhard Dippold | 7 Dec 2010 23:40

Picon

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Initial icon design

Hi Seb,

Seb schrieb:
> Hi,
> Sorry for just jumping in, perhaps this has been discussed before, but
> why are we trying to make MIME type icons?

I refer to Mimetype icons as desktop representations for application, 
documents and templates.

>
> MIME types icons should have nothing to do with the application used
> to create your files. That would be a bit like Firefox or Chrome
> bundling in their own icon for html documents.

On my Windows XP html files show the IE symbol, word documents the MS 
Office graphics and so on.

Several file types use previews instead of symbols, but even if these 
might be the standard, the user can select between them.

> MIME icons are usually
> decide at the OS level (or Desktop environment Unix systems) or by the
> organization responsible for the file format.  The fact is Windows
> will have it's own icons while Gnome, KDE, Haiku, AROS and what not
> might choose somthing else that fit their visual style better. This
> should be our job.

At the moment LibreOffice contains the icons you mention below:
>

(Continue reading)

Seb | 8 Dec 2010 01:26

Picon

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Initial icon design

Hi,

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Bernhard Dippold
<bernhard <at> familie-dippold.at> wrote:
[...]
> I refer to Mimetype icons as desktop representations for application,
> documents and templates.

Thanks for the clarification.

It just that applications don't have a MIME type. Documents do.

Technically application icons and MIME type icons are different and so
are UI icons and everything is mixed in one pot at the moment.

Perhaps we should make different pages for UI icons, application icons
and MIME icons because they are really not the same thing.
[...[
> As mentioned in my other mail (don't know if you had already been subscribed
> here), these icons are meant as interim solution until we have enough time
> for thorough investigation and community based design of a new icon set as
> well a community based LibreOffice branding.

AH. there is the piece of information I'm missing. :)

> To avoid introducing new graphical elements that might be replaced in LibO
> 3.4 or 3.5, we just used the present branding: The TDF symbol and the LibO
> colors.

Ok.

(Continue reading)

Christoph Noack | 8 Dec 2010 00:33

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Initial icon design

Hi Sebastian!

Welcome, since I missed to say that until now 

Am Mittwoch, den 08.12.2010, 08:56 +1100 schrieb Seb:
> Sorry for just jumping in, perhaps this has been discussed before, but
> why are we trying to make MIME type icons? 

Since Bernhard already replied on this, here is some more material for
reference ...
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:ChristophNoack/Initial_MIME_Icons

Bye,
Christoph

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Christoph Noack | 8 Dec 2010 00:30

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Initial icon design

Hi Bernhard,

sorry, I missed your mail and only minus twenty-eight minutes left 

Am Dienstag, den 07.12.2010, 16:51 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
> 
> (I didn't want to mess around on Christoph's User page, therefore 
> uploaded these icons to the proposals page - Christoph, do you want
> to 
> move this page to a public area: 
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:ChristophNoack/Initial_MIME_Icons ?) 

Please "mess around", feel free to add anything what helps to continue
with this topic. You may (if the system allows to) move this page to a
more official place. I started it below my user page, because I wasn't
sure whether it will be adopted ... and to keep the wiki clean, you
know 

I say goodbye for two days ... maybe read-only mode, since I'll try too
keep track with my mobile.

Cheers,
Christoph

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Dr. Bernhard Dippold | 30 Nov 2010 23:59

Picon

[libreoffice-design] Re: Initial icon design

Hi Christoph, all,

Christoph Noack wrote:
> [...]
> Am Dienstag, den 30.11.2010, 01:03 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
> > Sorry for being unclear - my question is: Why can't we use the same 
> > icons for application and documents?
> > 
> > Who needs to differ between application and document? 
> 
> Well, as I said, it is common to provide different application icons -
> but you are right that we do have a "special case". There is almost no
> (at least, I don't know about any) application that is a) one
> application, that b) provides different modules, and that c) supports
> that many file formats.

Where the main file formats are linked to one module each...
> 
> Just a side note (I forgot to add this in my last mail): The document
> symbol is - of course - also a "promotional" / "branding" element. But
> this would be kept for case "a".
> 
> Finally, as we say in German (you know), "special problems require
> special solutions" 
> 
> Given the fact, that time is running ... I'm totally fine with that. So
> as far as I understand, we end up with:
>       * 1 LibreOffice main icon (derived from the document symbol)
>       * n LibreOffice document icons = application icons
>       * n LibreOffice document template icons

(Continue reading)

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