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Daniel Stone | 18 Feb 22:45

Re: Board voting ends today, but...

Hi,

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 01:33:36PM -0800, Stephane Marchesin wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 05:44, Luc Verhaegen <libv <at> skynet.be> wrote:
> > There is little to no information about the X.org Foundation Boards
> > financial handlings. Several years ago, several companies (at least one,
> > Sun) deposited a lot of money into the foundation. It seems that the
> > foundation had 222k usd at the start of 2007; and we have 125k usd
> > today. We are not getting many details on how these funds were used, and
> > we only get some very general statements about how these funds were used
> > in the last year. And it seems that nobody on the actual board of
> > directors has anything but some hazy ideas of what is going on.
>
> FWIW a fair chunk of that money went into XDS 2007. If you recall we
> had a nice conference place and X.Org paid for hosting and trip for a
> big number of people (which is also why the event grew so big and was
> so successful, we never had such a big venue before and since then).

***********************************************************************
* THIS IS ONLY MY RECOLLECTION FROM A TWO-MINUTE SCAN OF EMAIL.       *
* DO NOT TAKE IT AS GOSPEL, DO NOT RELY UPON IT AS ABSOLUTE TRUTH.    *
***********************************************************************

As far as I can tell (and I've not looked hard, because I'd like to
escape the office early), XDS 2007 cost $US10k for the venue, around
$US24k for travel sponsorship (no joke), and something like $US5k lost
to PayPal (they decided we were scammers and took our money) as well as
around $US5k that vanished into the Brazilian banking system, which
gives us $US45k for one conference.
(Continue reading)

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Egbert Eich | 18 Feb 23:52
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Re: Board voting ends today, but...

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 09:45:07PM +0000, Daniel Stone wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> As far as I can tell (and I've not looked hard, because I'd like to
> escape the office early), XDS 2007 cost $US10k for the venue, around
> $US24k for travel sponsorship (no joke), and something like $US5k lost
> to PayPal (they decided we were scammers and took our money) as well as

This is actually interesting and it supports my feeling how finances
are handled and why I have given up doing any accounting.

But maybe I'm wrong and I only have this feeling because things work
differently in the EU than in the US where an organization is able to
to pocket ones money by making false claims.

It's not as if X.Org didn't have a legal counsel - I would have expected 
that with the help of this the issue with PayPal could have been resolved
and the money been refunded.

> 
> If you feel this is unacceptable and are looking to assign blame, the
> mail archives back me up that the entire thing was entirely my idea, and
> every single costing and proposal came from myself.
> 

I don't think anyone is putting any blame on you as the organizer
of the event.
After all there was a justifiable reason for all the expenses and
there is no point arguing now if things could have been done at lower
costs.
(Continue reading)

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David Nicol | 19 Feb 00:12
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Re: Board voting ends today, but...

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Egbert Eich <eich <at> freedesktop.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 09:45:07PM +0000, Daniel Stone wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> As far as I can tell (and I've not looked hard, because I'd like to
>> escape the office early), XDS 2007 cost $US10k for the venue, around
>> $US24k for travel sponsorship (no joke), and something like $US5k lost
>> to PayPal (they decided we were scammers and took our money) as well as
> It's not as if X.Org didn't have a legal counsel - I would have expected
> that with the help of this the issue with PayPal could have been resolved
> and the money been refunded.

5000USD is surely enough to take legal action to recover.
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Daniel Stone | 19 Feb 00:18

Re: Board voting ends today, but...

Hi,

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:52:22PM +0100, Egbert Eich wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 09:45:07PM +0000, Daniel Stone wrote:
> > As far as I can tell (and I've not looked hard, because I'd like to
> > escape the office early), XDS 2007 cost $US10k for the venue, around
> > $US24k for travel sponsorship (no joke), and something like $US5k lost
> > to PayPal (they decided we were scammers and took our money) as well as
> 
> This is actually interesting and it supports my feeling how finances
> are handled and why I have given up doing any accounting.
> 
> But maybe I'm wrong and I only have this feeling because things work
> differently in the EU than in the US where an organization is able to
> to pocket ones money by making false claims.

I'm pretty uncomfortable with the suggestion here.  No, wait, very
uncomfortable.  (Not to mention that if any misuse of funds _did_ go on
here, then it sucks to be me, because if that was the case, then I got
not a single cent from my complicity.)

> It's not as if X.Org didn't have a legal counsel - I would have expected 
> that with the help of this the issue with PayPal could have been resolved
> and the money been refunded.

No, not really.  If you read PayPal's T&Cs, it's mostly along the lines
of 'we're entitled to all your money if we feel like it', and it turns
out that they felt like it.  I'd hoped to use Google Checkout
originally, but had misread its T&Cs, which led me to believe that we
were not eligible to use it -- turns out this wasn't actually true.  So,
(Continue reading)

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Egbert Eich | 19 Feb 01:13
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Re: Board voting ends today, but...

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:18:47PM +0000, Daniel Stone wrote:
> I'm pretty uncomfortable with the suggestion here.  No, wait, very
> uncomfortable.  (Not to mention that if any misuse of funds _did_ go on
> here, then it sucks to be me, because if that was the case, then I got
> not a single cent from my complicity.)

Not sure how this relates to what I wrote above.

> 
> > It's not as if X.Org didn't have a legal counsel - I would have expected 
> > that with the help of this the issue with PayPal could have been resolved
> > and the money been refunded.
> 
> No, not really.  If you read PayPal's T&Cs, it's mostly along the lines
> of 'we're entitled to all your money if we feel like it', and it turns
> out that they felt like it.  I'd hoped to use Google Checkout
> originally, but had misread its T&Cs, which led me to believe that we
> were not eligible to use it -- turns out this wasn't actually true.  So,
> again, mea culpa for being daft enough to use PayPal in the first place.
> 
> http://www.paypalsucks.com and others have a litany of horror stories
> about PayPal pocketing cash from accounts they thought may have been
> vaguely kind of suspicious.

Yes, there are similar web sites about almost every company doing business
with a wider group of people or at least having some sort of public exposure.

Has anyone ever tried to contact Karen, X.Org's legal counsel at the time
and asked about this?
(Continue reading)

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Daniel Stone | 19 Feb 14:04

Re: Board voting ends today, but...

Hi Egbert,

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 01:13:41AM +0100, Egbert Eich wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:18:47PM +0000, Daniel Stone wrote:
> > I'm pretty uncomfortable with the suggestion here.  No, wait, very
> > uncomfortable.  (Not to mention that if any misuse of funds _did_ go on
> > here, then it sucks to be me, because if that was the case, then I got
> > not a single cent from my complicity.)
> 
> Not sure how this relates to what I wrote above.

I'd taken your comment to be about the Board rather than about PayPal,
so my apologies there.  Anyway, I'm not an expert on US vs. European
financial law, so I don't have too much else to add. :)

Cheers,
Daniel

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Peter Hutterer | 19 Feb 01:37

Re: Board voting ends today, but...

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:18:47PM +0000, Daniel Stone wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:52:22PM +0100, Egbert Eich wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 09:45:07PM +0000, Daniel Stone wrote:
> > > As far as I can tell (and I've not looked hard, because I'd like to
> > > escape the office early), XDS 2007 cost $US10k for the venue, around
> > > $US24k for travel sponsorship (no joke), and something like $US5k lost
> > > to PayPal (they decided we were scammers and took our money) as well as
> > 
> > This is actually interesting and it supports my feeling how finances
> > are handled and why I have given up doing any accounting.
> > 
> > But maybe I'm wrong and I only have this feeling because things work
> > differently in the EU than in the US where an organization is able to
> > to pocket ones money by making false claims.
> 
> I'm pretty uncomfortable with the suggestion here.  No, wait, very
> uncomfortable.  (Not to mention that if any misuse of funds _did_ go on
> here, then it sucks to be me, because if that was the case, then I got
> not a single cent from my complicity.)

Daniel, I read Egberts statement regarding pocketing money referring to
PayPal, not you. Egbert may be able to clear that up, but my gess is this
was the intended meaning.

Cheers,
  Peter
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Egbert Eich | 19 Feb 07:44
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Re: Board voting ends today, but...

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 10:37:49AM +1000, Peter Hutterer wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:18:47PM +0000, Daniel Stone wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:52:22PM +0100, Egbert Eich wrote:
> > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 09:45:07PM +0000, Daniel Stone wrote:

> > > > As far as I can tell (and I've not looked hard, because I'd like to
> > > > escape the office early), XDS 2007 cost $US10k for the venue, around
> > > > $US24k for travel sponsorship (no joke), and something like $US5k lost
> > > > to PayPal (they decided we were scammers and took our money) as well as
> > > 
> > > This is actually interesting and it supports my feeling how finances
> > > are handled and why I have given up doing any accounting.
> > > 
> > > But maybe I'm wrong and I only have this feeling because things work
> > > differently in the EU than in the US where an organization is able to
> > > to pocket ones money by making false claims.
> > 
> > I'm pretty uncomfortable with the suggestion here.  No, wait, very
> > uncomfortable.  (Not to mention that if any misuse of funds _did_ go on
> > here, then it sucks to be me, because if that was the case, then I got
> > not a single cent from my complicity.)
> 
> Daniel, I read Egberts statement regarding pocketing money referring to
> PayPal, not you. Egbert may be able to clear that up, but my gess is this
> was the intended meaning.
> 

Yes, indeed and I thought that this was clear from the wording. The word
'organization' referred to PaPal as a company which I - as a non native speaker
- consider to be some form of organization as opposed to an individual.
(Continue reading)

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Stephane Marchesin | 19 Feb 02:27
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Re: Board voting ends today, but...

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 13:45, Daniel Stone <daniel <at> fooishbar.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 01:33:36PM -0800, Stephane Marchesin wrote:
>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 05:44, Luc Verhaegen <libv <at> skynet.be> wrote:
>> > There is little to no information about the X.org Foundation Boards
>> > financial handlings. Several years ago, several companies (at least one,
>> > Sun) deposited a lot of money into the foundation. It seems that the
>> > foundation had 222k usd at the start of 2007; and we have 125k usd
>> > today. We are not getting many details on how these funds were used, and
>> > we only get some very general statements about how these funds were used
>> > in the last year. And it seems that nobody on the actual board of
>> > directors has anything but some hazy ideas of what is going on.
>>
>> FWIW a fair chunk of that money went into XDS 2007. If you recall we
>> had a nice conference place and X.Org paid for hosting and trip for a
>> big number of people (which is also why the event grew so big and was
>> so successful, we never had such a big venue before and since then).
>
> ***********************************************************************
> * THIS IS ONLY MY RECOLLECTION FROM A TWO-MINUTE SCAN OF EMAIL.       *
> * DO NOT TAKE IT AS GOSPEL, DO NOT RELY UPON IT AS ABSOLUTE TRUTH.    *
> ***********************************************************************
>
> As far as I can tell (and I've not looked hard, because I'd like to
> escape the office early), XDS 2007 cost $US10k for the venue, around
> $US24k for travel sponsorship (no joke), and something like $US5k lost
> to PayPal (they decided we were scammers and took our money) as well as
> around $US5k that vanished into the Brazilian banking system, which
> gives us $US45k for one conference.
(Continue reading)

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John Tapsell | 19 Feb 04:07
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Re: Board voting ends today, but...

Hi Guys,

  In meat space, I've now had 2 people telling me that they've voted
in a certain way because they are really concerned about the "missing
money".  This is a very high figure, given that I'm a nobody and I
don't even know any current X developers in person!

  Reading this thread, I'm not personally concerned, but please
remember that there are quite a few people following all of this and
talking about it in the real world and that you'll need to get "get
the word out" when it is all resolved and accounted for.

John
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Daniel Stone | 19 Feb 14:02

Re: Board voting ends today, but...

Hi,

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 05:27:24PM -0800, Stephane Marchesin wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 13:45, Daniel Stone <daniel <at> fooishbar.org> wrote:
> > If you feel this is unacceptable and are looking to assign blame, the
> > mail archives back me up that the entire thing was entirely my idea, and
> > every single costing and proposal came from myself.
> 
> I didn't mean to imply that, quite the opposite actually. I for one am
> certainly grateful that X.Org funded my trip and lodging at XDS 2007.

Sorry, I didn't mean for it to come out like that ... didn't mean you
specifically, but anyone in general who would object to the expenditure.
Would that we had better second- and third-person plurals in English!

> Considering that:
> - there is so much money in the bank (about 3 times what you need for
> XDS 2007, *hint* *hint*),
> - giving wide sponsorship makes these conferences better by gathering
> more people
> - the current economy does not help with funding conference trips
> neither for the professional devs nor for the spare-time devs,
> my opinion, and the point I was trying to make, is that we should have
> more like that one...

I fully agree. :)

Cheers,
Daniel
(Continue reading)

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Matthias Hopf | 19 Feb 17:38
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Re: Board voting ends today, but...

On Feb 18, 10 17:27:24 -0800, Stephane Marchesin wrote:
> Considering that:
> - there is so much money in the bank (about 3 times what you need for
> XDS 2007, *hint* *hint*),

Which means that 2013 we are out of money :-P

> - giving wide sponsorship makes these conferences better by gathering
> more people
> - the current economy does not help with funding conference trips
> neither for the professional devs nor for the spare-time devs,
> my opinion, and the point I was trying to make, is that we should have
> more like that one...

Good point. I should know that, being employed by such a company (with
now *very* restricted travel budget).

Matthias

--

-- 
Matthias Hopf <mhopf <at> suse.de>      __        __   __
Maxfeldstr. 5 / 90409 Nuernberg   (_   | |  (_   |__          mat <at> mshopf.de
Phone +49-911-74053-715           __)  |_|  __)  |__  R & D   www.mshopf.de
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Matthias Hopf | 19 Feb 17:33
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Re: Board voting ends today, but...

On Feb 18, 10 21:45:07 +0000, Daniel Stone wrote:
> * THIS IS ONLY MY RECOLLECTION FROM A TWO-MINUTE SCAN OF EMAIL.       *
> * DO NOT TAKE IT AS GOSPEL, DO NOT RELY UPON IT AS ABSOLUTE TRUTH.    *

Thanks for dealing with this so quickly, Daniel!

> As far as I can tell (and I've not looked hard, because I'd like to
> escape the office early), XDS 2007 cost $US10k for the venue, around
> $US24k for travel sponsorship (no joke)

As long as X.org has enough money I do not care too much about how much
money is spent for helping people getting to the event. I think the 2007
event was a big success, so money well spent.

That said, with the current funding we cannot do the same for another 10
years :-]

> , and something like $US5k lost
> to PayPal (they decided we were scammers and took our money) as well as
> around $US5k that vanished into the Brazilian banking system, which
> gives us $US45k for one conference.

Jikes!
I didn't know it was that much. Now thinking of it I do not remember
what we used PayPal for...

Anyway, I'm rather interested what the Brazilian bank mafia had to do
with all this? I doubt anybody thought these scaming mails were for
real and something to be worth investing?!?
(Continue reading)

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Daniel Stone | 19 Feb 18:01

Re: Board voting ends today, but...

Hi,

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 05:33:05PM +0100, Matthias Hopf wrote:
> On Feb 18, 10 21:45:07 +0000, Daniel Stone wrote:
> > As far as I can tell (and I've not looked hard, because I'd like to
> > escape the office early), XDS 2007 cost $US10k for the venue, around
> > $US24k for travel sponsorship (no joke)
> 
> As long as X.org has enough money I do not care too much about how much
> money is spent for helping people getting to the event. I think the 2007
> event was a big success, so money well spent.
> 
> That said, with the current funding we cannot do the same for another 10
> years :-]

Well, we made the decision back in ... 2006, I think, to not rebill our
sponsors, as we were accumulating cash much faster than we were spending
it, with a huge bank balance.  As someone mentioned earlier, obviously
that will be re-evaluated at some stage.

> > , and something like $US5k lost
> > to PayPal (they decided we were scammers and took our money) as well as
> > around $US5k that vanished into the Brazilian banking system, which
> > gives us $US45k for one conference.
> 
> Jikes!
> I didn't know it was that much. Now thinking of it I do not remember
> what we used PayPal for...

Clare College would only accept one large group booking for
(Continue reading)

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Matthias Hopf | 19 Feb 18:19
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Re: Board voting ends today, but...

On Feb 19, 10 17:01:15 +0000, Daniel Stone wrote:
> > I didn't know it was that much. Now thinking of it I do not remember
> > what we used PayPal for...
> 
> Clare College would only accept one large group booking for
> accommodation (and accommodation is ridiculously expensive and generally
> quite hard to find in Cambridge outside the colleges), so we decided to
> book for most everyone coming to the conference and pay Clare ourselves,
> then collect the money off everyone who wasn't sponsored.  At first, we
> tried to use PayPal for this.

Ah, thanks!

> > Anyway, I'm rather interested what the Brazilian bank mafia had to do
> > with all this? I doubt anybody thought these scaming mails were for
> > real and something to be worth investing?!?
> 
> Haha, of course not. :) It was wiring money to two of the Brazilians we
> sponsored to come to XDS 2007.

5k? OMFG. Well, ok, it's only 2,5k per person, and currently I don't
know what flights to Brazil cost... sounds a bit much, but if everything
was delayed due to issues (or if this includes a second, successful,
attempt at getting the tickets) it's reasonable.

Thanks again, Daniel

Matthias

--

--
(Continue reading)

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