Development list of the maemo.org embedded linux distro used for the Nokia Internet Tablets and the N900 ()

Igor Stoppa | 10 Jul 22:49

Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

Hi,
this is the presentation we gave last week in Ottawa at the pm summit.
It is the first step in improving our communication process with the
community and give a preview of what we are working on.

http://maemo.org/midcom-permalink-0c828d202f2011dc9945e502835830f130f1

It contains a brief overview of what is already shipping in the 770 and
the n800, but the main focus is about our work in progress.

Comments and questions are welcomed.

However, please understand that intentionally there is no reference to
dates or future products: being wip it is under development and
evaluation, therefore we cannot make any commitment till the job is
completed.

--

-- 
Cheers, Igor

Igor Stoppa <igor.stoppa <at> nokia.com>
(Nokia Multimedia - CP - OSSO / Helsinki, Finland)

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Frantisek Dufka | 11 Jul 10:08

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

Igor Stoppa wrote:
> Hi,
> this is the presentation we gave last week in Ottawa at the pm summit.
> It is the first step in improving our communication process with the
> community and give a preview of what we are working on.
> 
> http://maemo.org/midcom-permalink-0c828d202f2011dc9945e502835830f130f1
> 
> It contains a brief overview of what is already shipping in the 770 and
> the n800, but the main focus is about our work in progress.
> 
> Comments and questions are welcomed.

Thanks Igor, it is quite interesting. Maybe there is a bug on page 15 
with DSP frequency for OP 0, shouldn't the 133 be 233 or 333 (unless you 
need to slow it down because of speeding up the arm core to meet some 
power requirement)? Does it mean the arm core in current N800 can run at 
400Mhz?

As for dynamic voltage and frequency scaling did I understood it 
correctly that even if lower voltage means considerable saving (even if 
task runs longer) it is almost not worth the hassle due to other issues 
(latency of voltage/frequency change, static power consumption of other 
parts, hard prediction of future)? Or how big savings do you expect 
overall from voltage/frequency scaling when the device is mostly idle 
(i.e being mostly waken up by inefficient system or apps waiting for 
something and not hogging the CPU). Or maybe the question is how 
efficient is the system currently, is there something like 
http://www.linuxpowertop.org/ for omap to see what can be improved or 
what cannot and could benefit from lower frequency/voltage?

(Continue reading)

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Igor Stoppa | 11 Jul 12:53

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 10:08 +0200, ext Frantisek Dufka wrote:
> Thanks Igor, it is quite interesting. Maybe there is a bug on page 15 
> with DSP frequency for OP 0, shouldn't the 133 be 233 or 333 (unless you 
> need to slow it down because of speeding up the arm core to meet some 
> power requirement)?

No, no bug unfortunately, simply TI doesn't support the combination with
DSP @ 266 MHz (that would be the proper value).
Of course ymmw and some chips probably can cope with it (actually there
are also thermal issues so i bet that most OMAPs can do it at room
temperature) but in order to provide a certain yield value, the
constraints on the operating range are stricter.

I certainly will run my tablet at higher speed and/or lower voltage;
finland makes it unlikely to incur in heating problems 

> Does it mean the arm core in current N800 can run at 
> 400Mhz?

Yes, the data is for stock N800 (we have this SpeedSorted OMAP2 that can
run with ARM @ 400MHz).

> As for dynamic voltage and frequency scaling did I understood it 
> correctly that even if lower voltage means considerable saving (even if 
> task runs longer) it is almost not worth the hassle due to other issues 
> (latency of voltage/frequency change, static power consumption of other 
> parts, hard prediction of future)?

It just means that the whole system must be considered, not only the
processor. But we do have significant benefits at using the lower OP in

(Continue reading)

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Frantisek Dufka | 11 Jul 14:29

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

Igor Stoppa wrote:
> I certainly will run my tablet at higher speed and/or lower voltage;
> finland makes it unlikely to incur in heating problems 

CPU temperature sensor might be useful to guess the limit and cut the 
speed down in case one is not in Finland  Is there one?

> 
>> Does it mean the arm core in current N800 can run at 
>> 400Mhz?
> 
> Yes, the data is for stock N800 (we have this SpeedSorted OMAP2 that can
> run with ARM @ 400MHz).

Cool  Well, maybe 'Hot' actually 

>> Do you plan to have user selectable power/speed profiles to let people 
>> choose whether they want slower system or shorter battery life?
> 
> My personal belief is that the user should not have to care about this:
> something is broken if the user has to be involved. The system should
> have all the info (and means) to run at good enough speed when needed.

Well, I'm not sure but maybe when being conservative with power saving 
and when some hints are applied (i.e some API) it could work. I'm mainly 
thinking about CPU spikes when applications are starting. I fear the 
system will not react quickly enough with 'overclocking' when 
application starts since otherwise the device does nothing before and 
after. But this specific problem could be solved with some hints done 
from application launcher or maybe kernel or libc (exec/fork call) itself.

(Continue reading)

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Mika Yrjölä | 11 Jul 15:32

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

On 7/11/07, Frantisek Dufka <dufkaf <at> seznam.cz> wrote:
> Igor Stoppa wrote:
> > I certainly will run my tablet at higher speed and/or lower voltage;
> > finland makes it unlikely to incur in heating problems 
>
> CPU temperature sensor might be useful to guess the limit and cut the
> speed down in case one is not in Finland  Is there one?

I noticed something that looked like a pseudofile for a temperature
sensor somewhere under the /sys awhile back, can't remember the exact
path right now, though. Neither do I have any idea whether the values
there are useful; they looked a bit like temperature in Centigrades *
1000 or something and did change, but that doesn't mean that they're
accurate, change in linear fashion etc.

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Igor Stoppa | 11 Jul 15:37

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 16:32 +0300, ext Mika Yrjölä wrote:
> On 7/11/07, Frantisek Dufka <dufkaf <at> seznam.cz> wrote:
> > Igor Stoppa wrote:
> > > I certainly will run my tablet at higher speed and/or lower voltage;
> > > finland makes it unlikely to incur in heating problems 
> >
> > CPU temperature sensor might be useful to guess the limit and cut the
> > speed down in case one is not in Finland  Is there one?
> 
> I noticed something that looked like a pseudofile for a temperature
> sensor somewhere under the /sys awhile back, can't remember the exact
> path right now, though. Neither do I have any idea whether the values
> there are useful; they looked a bit like temperature in Centigrades *
> 1000 or something and did change, but that doesn't mean that they're
> accurate, change in linear fashion etc.

I don't know about that, the idea didn't go beyond checking the POP
sectioin of the TRM. But it would be great to be able to save some more
by lowering the voltage of each OP.

Unfortunately I don't see it happening in an official release as it
would require lots of validations to be accepted without the support
from the silicon manufacturer.

--

-- 
Cheers, Igor

Igor Stoppa <igor.stoppa <at> nokia.com>
(Nokia Multimedia - CP - OSSO / Helsinki, Finland)

(Continue reading)

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Igor Stoppa | 11 Jul 15:25

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 14:29 +0200, ext Frantisek Dufka wrote:
> Igor Stoppa wrote:
> > I certainly will run my tablet at higher speed and/or lower voltage;
> > finland makes it unlikely to incur in heating problems 
> 
> CPU temperature sensor might be useful to guess the limit and cut the 
> speed down in case one is not in Finland  Is there one?

There is one between omap and the combo chip memory, but it is quite
sucky. Not that we haven't thought about it.

If there is some spare time (yeah, right) we could try to use it, but TI
is unlikely to support it and therefore i'm quite confident it will ever
ship (albeit it would be quite interesting since it would allow much
more aggressive trimming down of the voltage).

> Well, I'm not sure but maybe when being conservative with power saving 
> and when some hints are applied (i.e some API) it could work. I'm mainly 
> thinking about CPU spikes when applications are starting. I fear the 
> system will not react quickly enough with 'overclocking' when 
> application starts since otherwise the device does nothing before and 
> after. But this specific problem could be solved with some hints done 
> from application launcher or maybe kernel or libc (exec/fork call) itself.

Ondemand starts by cranking up to the max the frequency. It cannot be
beaten.

> I'm not sure how linux currently does it on x86 (shame on me, using XP 
> on laptop and linux only in vmware) but my experience with RMClock on XP 
> (http://cpu.rightmark.org/products/rmclock.shtml) is that it is

(Continue reading)

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Andrew Flegg | 11 Jul 14:28

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

On 7/11/07, Igor Stoppa <igor.stoppa <at> nokia.com> wrote:
>
[snip lots of interesting stuff]
>
> It's a similar case to sleep while idle vs user-controlled suspend: just
> because old devices were doing suspend that doesn't make it desirable.

This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did*
want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to:

  * Shut off all network connections.
  * Stop any noise (except configured alarms)
  * Have the screen locked
  * Not have to save my position
  * Be able to resume quickly

This isn't "suspend" in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the
purpose is clear.

Cheers,

Andrew

--

-- 
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew <at> bleb.org  |  http://www.bleb.org/

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David Weinehall | 11 Jul 14:50

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

On ons, 2007-07-11 at 13:28 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote:
> On 7/11/07, Igor Stoppa <igor.stoppa <at> nokia.com> wrote:
> >
> [snip lots of interesting stuff]
> >
> > It's a similar case to sleep while idle vs user-controlled suspend: just
> > because old devices were doing suspend that doesn't make it desirable.
> 
> This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did*
> want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to:
> 
>   * Shut off all network connections.
>   * Stop any noise (except configured alarms)
>   * Have the screen locked
>   * Not have to save my position
>   * Be able to resume quickly
> 
> This isn't "suspend" in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the
> purpose is clear.

So what you want is basically the "Soft Poweroff" option that's
available to you with a simple:

vim /etc/systemui/systemui.conf

but with some minor tweaks?  I guess that can be arranged =)

Regards: David

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Andrew Flegg | 11 Jul 14:53

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

On 7/11/07, David Weinehall <david.weinehall <at> nokia.com> wrote:
> On ons, 2007-07-11 at 13:28 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote:
> >
> > This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did*
> > want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to:
> >
> >   * Shut off all network connections.
> >   * Stop any noise (except configured alarms)
> >   * Have the screen locked
> >   * Not have to save my position
> >   * Be able to resume quickly
> >
> > This isn't "suspend" in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the
> > purpose is clear.
>
> So what you want is basically the "Soft Poweroff" option that's
> available [...] but with some minor tweaks?

Yes, exactly 

> I guess that can be arranged =)

Cool. Is it anything I could do straight off (I can also imagine a
control panel applet to allow users to customise[1] this "suspended"
state as Igor describes), or does it still dependent on some
relatively closed/unhookable infrastructure?

Cheers,

Andrew

(Continue reading)

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David Weinehall | 11 Jul 15:01

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

On ons, 2007-07-11 at 13:53 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote:
> On 7/11/07, David Weinehall <david.weinehall <at> nokia.com> wrote:
> > On ons, 2007-07-11 at 13:28 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote:
> > >
> > > This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did*
> > > want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to:
> > >
> > >   * Shut off all network connections.
> > >   * Stop any noise (except configured alarms)
> > >   * Have the screen locked
> > >   * Not have to save my position
> > >   * Be able to resume quickly
> > >
> > > This isn't "suspend" in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the
> > > purpose is clear.
> >
> > So what you want is basically the "Soft Poweroff" option that's
> > available [...] but with some minor tweaks?
> 
> Yes, exactly 
> 
> > I guess that can be arranged =)
> 
> Cool. Is it anything I could do straight off (I can also imagine a
> control panel applet to allow users to customise[1] this "suspended"
> state as Igor describes), or does it still dependent on some
> relatively closed/unhookable infrastructure?

systemui.xml (sorry, not conf as I wrote in my previous e-mail) file
supports callbacks, to get customised behaviour.

(Continue reading)

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Igor Stoppa | 11 Jul 15:14

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007


On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 16:01 +0300, David Weinehall wrote:
> On ons, 2007-07-11 at 13:53 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote:
> > On 7/11/07, David Weinehall <david.weinehall <at> nokia.com> wrote:
> > > On ons, 2007-07-11 at 13:28 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote:
> > > >
> > > > This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did*
> > > > want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to:
> > > >
> > > >   * Shut off all network connections.
> > > >   * Stop any noise (except configured alarms)
> > > >   * Have the screen locked
> > > >   * Not have to save my position
> > > >   * Be able to resume quickly
> > > >
> > > > This isn't "suspend" in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the
> > > > purpose is clear.
> > >
> > > So what you want is basically the "Soft Poweroff" option that's
> > > available [...] but with some minor tweaks?
> > 
> > Yes, exactly 
> > 
> > > I guess that can be arranged =)
> > 
> > Cool. Is it anything I could do straight off (I can also imagine a
> > control panel applet to allow users to customise[1] this "suspended"
> > state as Igor describes), or does it still dependent on some
> > relatively closed/unhookable infrastructure?
>

(Continue reading)

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David Weinehall | 11 Jul 15:21

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

On ons, 2007-07-11 at 16:14 +0300, Igor Stoppa wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 16:01 +0300, David Weinehall wrote:
> > On ons, 2007-07-11 at 13:53 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote:
> > systemui.xml (sorry, not conf as I wrote in my previous e-mail) file
> > supports callbacks, to get customised behaviour.
> > 
> > > [1] Sound on/off, network on/off being the obvious ones
> > 
> > I can make that configurable through /etc/mce/mce.ini
> 
> Sorry to ruin the party, but as Mike Baker wrote some time ago
> 
> (RFC: n800 suspend to ram)
> 
> the suspend wouldn't be "forever" anyway: Mike's script or something
> similar should be used. So there _would_ be anyway some activity.

Uhm?  What's that got to do with anything?  The standard soft-off in mce
only relies on the excellent dynamic sleep of the device (but with
display turned off, power off behaviour of the power button,
touchscreen/keypad lock enabled, etc).  Of course, if anyone wants to
use suspend too, that's their choice, but really, Soft Poweroff doesn't
rely on it.

Regards: David

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Igor Stoppa | 11 Jul 14:39

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 13:28 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote:
> On 7/11/07, Igor Stoppa <igor.stoppa <at> nokia.com> wrote:
> >
> [snip lots of interesting stuff]
> >
> > It's a similar case to sleep while idle vs user-controlled suspend: just
> > because old devices were doing suspend that doesn't make it desirable.
> 
> This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did*
> want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to:
> 
>   * Shut off all network connections.
>   * Stop any noise (except configured alarms)
>   * Have the screen locked
>   * Not have to save my position
>   * Be able to resume quickly
> 
> This isn't "suspend" in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the
> purpose is clear.

Why not just put it in offline mode and lock the screen and keys?

That's what i do and it simply works.

The only drawback is that with sane applications you would get "only" 12
days with a full battery.

I do admit that in some extreme case it might not be enough, but on
OMAP2 it doesn't justify the hassle.

(Continue reading)

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Andrew Flegg | 11 Jul 14:44

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

On 7/11/07, Igor Stoppa <igor.stoppa <at> nokia.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 13:28 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote:
> >
> > This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did*
> > want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to:
> >
> >   * Shut off all network connections.
> >   * Stop any noise (except configured alarms)
> >   * Have the screen locked
> >   * Not have to save my position
> >   * Be able to resume quickly
> >
> > This isn't "suspend" in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the
> > purpose is clear.
>
> Why not just put it in offline mode and lock the screen and keys?
>
> That's what i do and it simply works.

Well, that doesn't block sound so if the battery starts going down in
the night, or similar, I could be awoken by a noise. It's also clumsy
as the sequence is:

   1) Press power button
   2) Select offline mode
   3) Press OK
   4) Press power button
   5) Press OK

Unlocking is a simlar number. That's not exactly a simple sequence, as

(Continue reading)

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Marius Gedminas | 11 Jul 14:52

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

On Wed, Jul 11, 2007 at 01:44:58PM +0100, Andrew Flegg wrote:
> On 7/11/07, Igor Stoppa <igor.stoppa <at> nokia.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 13:28 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote:
> > > This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did*
> > > want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to:
> > >
> > >   * Shut off all network connections.
> > >   * Stop any noise (except configured alarms)
> > >   * Have the screen locked
> > >   * Not have to save my position
> > >   * Be able to resume quickly
> > >
> > > This isn't "suspend" in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the
> > > purpose is clear.
> >
> > Why not just put it in offline mode and lock the screen and keys?
> >
> > That's what i do and it simply works.
> 
> Well, that doesn't block sound so if the battery starts going down in
> the night, or similar, I could be awoken by a noise. It's also clumsy
> as the sequence is:
> 
>    1) Press power button
>    2) Select offline mode
>    3) Press OK
>    4) Press power button
>    5) Press OK
> 
> Unlocking is a simlar number. That's not exactly a simple sequence, as

(Continue reading)

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Hanno Zulla | 11 Jul 17:40

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

Marius Gedminas schrieb:
> Palm had a simple sequence:
> 
>    1) Press power button

Something like that had been suggested through

https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1246

and was rejected as WONTFIX by the Nokia team.

Regards,

Hanno

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Ian | 11 Jul 19:02

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007


ola
> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1246
for me this gives

There is a problem with this website's security certificate.

on windows vista
[]'s
ian
--

-- 
http://ianlawrence.info

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Visti Andresen | 11 Jul 15:16

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:52:10 +0300
Marius Gedminas <marius <at> pov.lt> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 11, 2007 at 01:44:58PM +0100, Andrew Flegg wrote:
> > On 7/11/07, Igor Stoppa <igor.stoppa <at> nokia.com> wrote:
> > > On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 13:28 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote:
> > > > This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did*
> > > > want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to:
> > > >
> > > >   * Shut off all network connections.
> > > >   * Stop any noise (except configured alarms)
> > > >   * Have the screen locked
> > > >   * Not have to save my position
> > > >   * Be able to resume quickly
> > > >
> > > > This isn't "suspend" in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the
> > > > purpose is clear.
> > >
> > > Why not just put it in offline mode and lock the screen and keys?
> > >
> > > That's what i do and it simply works.
> > 
> > Well, that doesn't block sound so if the battery starts going down in
> > the night, or similar, I could be awoken by a noise. It's also clumsy
> > as the sequence is:
> > 
> >    1) Press power button
> >    2) Select offline mode
> >    3) Press OK
> >    4) Press power button

(Continue reading)

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David Weinehall | 11 Jul 15:26

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

On ons, 2007-07-11 at 15:16 +0200, ext Visti Andresen wrote:

[snip]

> I could suggest using a "double click" on the power button
> 
> First click opens the "Device mode" dialogue.
> Second click "suspends" the device.

The idea is great, IMHO, but I doubt that Nokia's UI-team would agree;
on a Nokia phone, pressing the power button when the device menu is open
acts as cursor down.  On our device it just ignores the press
completely, which was an acceptable behaviour too.  Adding a totally
different behaviour would probably be regarded as too complicated for
the user, or something =)

[snip]

Regards: David

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Igor Stoppa | 11 Jul 22:21

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 16:26 +0300, ext David Weinehall wrote:
> On ons, 2007-07-11 at 15:16 +0200, ext Visti Andresen wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > I could suggest using a "double click" on the power button
> > 
> > First click opens the "Device mode" dialogue.
> > Second click "suspends" the device.
> 
> The idea is great, IMHO, but I doubt that Nokia's UI-team would agree;
> on a Nokia phone, pressing the power button when the device menu is open
> acts as cursor down.  On our device it just ignores the press
> completely, which was an acceptable behaviour too.  Adding a totally
> different behaviour would probably be regarded as too complicated for
> the user, or something =)

We are doing open software, right? So let's provide a good mechanism
that supports more advanced interactions and even if we have to
officially ship with a lame set of choices for the average user, others
can implement more advanced features.

>From the discussion so far, I'm getting the impression that what people
are actually asking for is a way to create very customised extra
profiles.

Example:

Create Night mode and associate it with the shortcut (double press on
the power button):

(Continue reading)

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Brian Waite | 12 Jul 14:48

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

On Wednesday 11 July 2007, Igor Stoppa wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 16:26 +0300, ext David Weinehall wrote:
> > On ons, 2007-07-11 at 15:16 +0200, ext Visti Andresen wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > I could suggest using a "double click" on the power button
> > >
> > > First click opens the "Device mode" dialogue.
> > > Second click "suspends" the device.
> >
> > The idea is great, IMHO, but I doubt that Nokia's UI-team would agree;
> > on a Nokia phone, pressing the power button when the device menu is open
> > acts as cursor down.  On our device it just ignores the press
> > completely, which was an acceptable behaviour too.  Adding a totally
> > different behaviour would probably be regarded as too complicated for
> > the user, or something =)
>
> We are doing open software, right? So let's provide a good mechanism
> that supports more advanced interactions and even if we have to
> officially ship with a lame set of choices for the average user, others
> can implement more advanced features.
>
> >From the discussion so far, I'm getting the impression that what people
>
> are actually asking for is a way to create very customised extra
> profiles.
>
> Example:
>

(Continue reading)

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Neil MacLeod | 12 Jul 20:35

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

Brian Waite wrote:
> So I have another request, Can we possibly have different profiles for 
> battery/powered? I think it is really important to be able to say if I am 
> plugged in do not go offline because I want to get my VOIP calls, but if I am 
> on battery do something more miserly. Again, we have the profiles already, I 
> would just like to be able to use different profies for different power 
> conditions.
> 
> Thanks
> Brian

Check RFE #1095[1] (Power Management Profiles) and vote for it if you agree it's the kind of thing you'd like
to see in future and/or add comments clarifying how you think it should work etc.

1. https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1095

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Neil MacLeod | 12 Jul 20:36

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

Neil MacLeod wrote:
> Brian Waite wrote:
>> So I have another request, Can we possibly have different profiles for 
>> battery/powered? I think it is really important to be able to say if I am 
>> plugged in do not go offline because I want to get my VOIP calls, but if I am 
>> on battery do something more miserly. Again, we have the profiles already, I 
>> would just like to be able to use different profies for different power 
>> conditions.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Brian
> 
> Check RFE #1095[1] (Power Management Profiles) and vote for it if you agree it's the kind of thing you'd
like to see in future and/or add comments clarifying how you think it should work etc.
> 
> 1. https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1095

Sorry, that should be bug #1046, https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1046

:)

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Igor Stoppa | 12 Jul 14:59

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 08:48 -0400, ext Brian Waite wrote:

[snip]

> So I have another request, Can we possibly have different profiles for 
> battery/powered? I think it is really important to be able to say if I am 
> plugged in do not go offline because I want to get my VOIP calls, but if I am 
> on battery do something more miserly. Again, we have the profiles already, I 
> would just like to be able to use different profies for different power 
> conditions.

We are shipting in the metaphisical field of centralised vs. distributed
control.

What you are asking for is certainly doable for a device meant to run
few well known applications, like a phone.

On a tablet it seems cleaner to just broadcast the plugged/unplugged
event and let the apps deal with it by themselves.

You are proposing something similar to screen timeout on a laptop, that
can be set separately depending on presence of external power.

--

-- 
Cheers, Igor

Igor Stoppa <igor.stoppa <at> nokia.com>
(Nokia Multimedia - CP - OSSO / Helsinki, Finland)

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Brian Waite | 12 Jul 16:21

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

On Thursday 12 July 2007, Igor Stoppa wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 08:48 -0400, ext Brian Waite wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > So I have another request, Can we possibly have different profiles for
> > battery/powered? I think it is really important to be able to say if I am
> > plugged in do not go offline because I want to get my VOIP calls, but if
> > I am on battery do something more miserly. Again, we have the profiles
> > already, I would just like to be able to use different profies for
> > different power conditions.
>
> We are shipting in the metaphisical field of centralised vs. distributed
> control.
>
> What you are asking for is certainly doable for a device meant to run
> few well known applications, like a phone.
>
> On a tablet it seems cleaner to just broadcast the plugged/unplugged
> event and let the apps deal with it by themselves.
>
> You are proposing something similar to screen timeout on a laptop, that
> can be set separately depending on presence of external power.

What I am asking for is a setup like my laptop where I have a complete power 
profile for the system. 
Let me give a few use cases 
Case 1:
I carry my tablet in my pocket. (On battery) 
Basically I turn it on, look at something put it away.

(Continue reading)

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Igor Stoppa | 13 Jul 10:30

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 10:21 -0400, ext Brian Waite wrote:

[snip]

> What I am asking for is a setup like my laptop where I have a complete power 
> profile for the system. 

[snip]

I see no technical problem in maemo providing the means to implement it.

AFAIK there might be legal and IP related isses on us just shipping the
feature, as Nokia has a patent on phone profiles and it seems that it's
one of the family jewels :-/

It beats me why there isn't any issue with laptops doing basically the
same thing. I leave it to someone more versed in legal/IP issues.

--

-- 
Cheers, Igor

Igor Stoppa <igor.stoppa <at> nokia.com>
(Nokia Multimedia - CP - OSSO / Helsinki, Finland)

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Neil MacLeod | 11 Jul 20:00

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

David Weinehall wrote:
> On ons, 2007-07-11 at 15:16 +0200, ext Visti Andresen wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>> I could suggest using a "double click" on the power button
>>
>> First click opens the "Device mode" dialogue.
>> Second click "suspends" the device.
> 
> The idea is great, IMHO, but I doubt that Nokia's UI-team would agree;
> on a Nokia phone, pressing the power button when the device menu is open
> acts as cursor down.  On our device it just ignores the press
> completely, which was an acceptable behaviour too.  Adding a totally
> different behaviour would probably be regarded as too complicated for
> the user, or something =)
> 
> [snip]
> 
> 
> Regards: David

Sounds similar to RFE https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=943

Vote it up if there's to be any hope of a change of heart on Nokia's part! :)

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Kemal Hadimli | 11 Jul 15:21

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

> > > > >   * Shut off all network connections.
> > > > >   * Stop any noise (except configured alarms)
> > > > >   * Have the screen locked
> > > > >   * Not have to save my position
> > > > >   * Be able to resume quickly

a special softpoweroff mode combined with muted sound and offline mode
sounds really useful to me.

> I could suggest using a "double click" on the power button
>
> First click opens the "Device mode" dialogue.
> Second click "suspends" the device.
>
> Apply a timeout after the dialogue appears,
> if the power button click happens after this,
> the dialogue just closes (to prevent accidental "suspends")

I think adding a PowerKeyDoubleAction and PowerKeyDoubleTimeout (or
PowerKeyDoubleDelay) to mce.ini and making this all configurable would
be the best approach.

--

-- 
Kemal

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Andy Mulhearn | 11 Jul 14:35

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

 Apart from shutting off the sound thing thsi looks like a N770 cover on mode. Is that about right?

Even if it's not, it's one I would like to have as well - as a "put away for a while" mode,

Andy
On Wednesday, July 11, 2007, at 01:29PM, "Andrew Flegg" <andrew <at> bleb.org> wrote:
>On 7/11/07, Igor Stoppa <igor.stoppa <at> nokia.com> wrote:
>>
>[snip lots of interesting stuff]
>>
>> It's a similar case to sleep while idle vs user-controlled suspend: just
>> because old devices were doing suspend that doesn't make it desirable.
>
>This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did*
>want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to:
>
>  * Shut off all network connections.
>  * Stop any noise (except configured alarms)
>  * Have the screen locked
>  * Not have to save my position
>  * Be able to resume quickly
>
>This isn't "suspend" in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the
>purpose is clear.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Andrew
>
>--

(Continue reading)

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Igor Stoppa | 13 Jul 10:15

Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007

Hi,
On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 05:35 -0700, ext Andy Mulhearn wrote:
> Apart from shutting off the sound thing thsi looks like a N770 cover on mode. Is that about right?
> 
> Even if it's not, it's one I would like to have as well - as a "put away for a while" mode,

I understand the need, but there are so many different (and rightful)
opinions that rather than changing the standard interface, I'd like to
have a cusomisation interface for system-level features plus let
applications have their own local settings for certain standard dbus
events.

Then everyone can configure things to his heart content and we don't
impose our opinion on anybody.

--

-- 
Cheers, Igor

Igor Stoppa <igor.stoppa <at> nokia.com>
(Nokia Multimedia - CP - OSSO / Helsinki, Finland)