Olin Lathrop | 8 May 13:48

Re: [EE]: opinion on Willem programmer?

Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> Just read my reply to Olin and you will know I was just talking
> based on the popular definition of "open source".

Then you misunderstand the popular definition.  I think the general
consensus of "open source" means you can look at it.  In most cases you can
do more, usually much more.  But some restrictions, like GPL or my
copyright, don't disqualify it from being "open source".

There are probably others listening in wondering what the fuss is about.
Here is the copyright notice of the source files that do not directly
implement a programming algorithm or are part of the USB framework:

***************************************************************
* Copyright (C) 2008, Embed Inc (http://www.embedinc.com)     *
*                                                             *
* Permission to copy this file is granted as long as this     *
* copyright notice is included in its entirety at the         *
* beginning of the file, whether the file is copied in whole  *
* or in part and regardless of whether other information is   *
* added to the copy.                                          *
*                                                             *
* The contents of this file may be used in any way,           *
* commercial or otherwise.  This file is provided "as is",    *
* and Embed Inc makes no claims of suitability for a          *
* particular purpose nor assumes any liability resulting from *
* its use.                                                    *
***************************************************************

Geesh guys, all I'm asking for is to be credited in the source, and you
(Continue reading)

Xiaofan Chen | 8 May 15:34

Re: [EE]: opinion on Willem programmer?

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 7:48 PM, Olin Lathrop <olin_piclist <at> embedinc.com> wrote:
> Xiaofan Chen wrote:
>> Just read my reply to Olin and you will know I was just talking
>> based on the popular definition of "open source".
>
> Then you misunderstand the popular definition.  I think the general
> consensus of "open source" means you can look at it.  In most cases you can
> do more, usually much more.  But some restrictions, like GPL or my
> copyright, don't disqualify it from being "open source".
>
> There are probably others listening in wondering what the fuss is about.
> Here is the copyright notice of the source files that do not directly
> implement a programming algorithm or are part of the USB framework:
>
> ***************************************************************
> * Copyright (C) 2008, Embed Inc (http://www.embedinc.com)     *
> *                                                             *
> * Permission to copy this file is granted as long as this     *
> * copyright notice is included in its entirety at the         *
> * beginning of the file, whether the file is copied in whole  *
> * or in part and regardless of whether other information is   *
> * added to the copy.                                          *
> *                                                             *
> * The contents of this file may be used in any way,           *
> * commercial or otherwise.  This file is provided "as is",    *
> * and Embed Inc makes no claims of suitability for a          *
> * particular purpose nor assumes any liability resulting from *
> * its use.                                                    *
> ***************************************************************

(Continue reading)

Tamas Rudnai | 8 May 15:43

Re: [EE]: opinion on Willem programmer?

> Then you misunderstand the popular definition.  I think the general
> consensus of "open source" means you can look at it.  In most cases you
can
> do more, usually much more.  But some restrictions, like GPL or my
> copyright, don't disqualify it from being "open source".

Exactly! Open Source and Free Software are two different things. There are
some free software that are not open source and vica versa. Like Public
Domain is free software but the source in not necessarily open. But there
are other open source licences around than GPL, like LGPL, BSD, Apache and
even Microsoft Public License :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_software_licenses

Some of them has a meaning that the software has to be free of charge and
the company can charge only for services, some others are not even declares
the software as free, and there are some that only lets you peek into the
source without permitting you to modifying it or even recompiling it.
Personally I'd prefer those that I can recompile so I could prove that the
binary was generated from that particular source.

Anyway, is there any place where I could download the device scripts for
PicKit2 - or that is not open source?

Tamas

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 12:48 PM, Olin Lathrop <olin_piclist <at> embedinc.com>
wrote:

> Xiaofan Chen wrote:
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Xiaofan Chen | 8 May 16:18

Re: [EE]: opinion on Willem programmer?

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 9:43 PM, Tamas Rudnai <tamas.rudnai <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> Anyway, is there any place where I could download the device scripts for
> PicKit2 - or that is not open source?
>

It is in the device data file.

Jeff Post has developed a simple utility to dump the data file.
I've enclosed the Windows build and the results in this
Microchip forum thread.
http://forum.microchip.com/tm.aspx?m=331582 (post 27)

Regards,
Xiaofan
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Byron Jeff | 10 May 09:42

Re: [EE]: opinion on Willem programmer?

On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 07:48:26AM -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> > Just read my reply to Olin and you will know I was just talking
> > based on the popular definition of "open source".
> 
> Then you misunderstand the popular definition. 

(thought to self: Do I REALLY want to wade into this?)

> I think the general
> consensus of "open source" means you can look at it.

All common definitions of open source deals with modification and
redistribution. From the Wikipedia entry (emphesis mine):

----------------------------------------
Open source software is computer software for which the human-readable
source code is made available under a copyright license (or arrangement
such as the public domain) that meets the Open Source Definition. THIS
PERMITS USERS TO USE, CHANGE, AND IMPROVE THE SOFTWARE, AND TO REDISTRIBUTE
IT IN MODIFIED OR UNMODIFIED FORM. It is often developed in a public,
collaborative manner.
----------------------------------------

It's not about being able to read the source.

>  In most cases you can
> do more, usually much more.  But some restrictions, like GPL or my
> copyright, don't disqualify it from being "open source".

(Continue reading)

Olin Lathrop | 10 May 14:35

Re: [EE]: opinion on Willem programmer?

Byron Jeff wrote:
> It's the none at all that's the real problem. Without a license, no
> one has any right to do anything with the source for your software.

Are you really sure?  I am not a lawyer, but if there are no restrictions
listed then it seems to me there are no restrictions.  Many things on the
internet have no explicit copyright and are routinely copied.  I don't
remember anyone claiming that something without a explicit copyright was
illegally copied.

In fact I remember a case around 1984 when I was at Raster Technologies.  We
made display controllers.  At the time these were 20K$ rack mounted boxes
that recieved commands over RS-232 or DR-11W and produced RGB video.  We had
a quick reference card that briefly listed all the commands.  A competitor,
Vermont Microsystems Inc, made a stripped down display controller and
decided to use our command set to claim "Raster compatible".  They even
produced a quick reference card that was clearly a copy of our card.  Then
someone looked at our card carefully and realized we had forgotten to put a
copyright notice on it anywhere.  VMI hadn't broken any laws.  All
subsequent cards we produced had a copyright notice on them though.

> The only point is that because your license above specifically limits
> redistribution both in number of copies and the devices the code can
> be
> used on, that it isn't open source by any common definition that the
> open source community in general uses.

Apparently there is wide variation on what people consider "open source".
Perhaps FSF is trying to push it in a restrictive (and self-serving)
direction, but that doesn't make it so.  These are two ordinary english
(Continue reading)

Byron Jeff | 10 May 21:57

Re: [EE]: opinion on Willem programmer?

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 08:35:43AM -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Byron Jeff wrote:
> > It's the none at all that's the real problem. Without a license, no
> > one has any right to do anything with the source for your software.
> 
> Are you really sure?
>  I am not a lawyer, but if there are no restrictions
> listed then it seems to me there are no restrictions.  

IANAL for sure, but yes. If there is no license granted then one is held to
copyright law. And that gives the copyright holder exclusive rights to
copy.

> Many things on the
> internet have no explicit copyright and are routinely copied.  I don't
> remember anyone claiming that something without a explicit copyright was
> illegally copied.

It was illegally copied. It's just that with no one to enforce the
copyright violation, nothing gets done.

> 
> In fact I remember a case around 1984 when I was at Raster Technologies.  We
> made display controllers.  At the time these were 20K$ rack mounted boxes
> that recieved commands over RS-232 or DR-11W and produced RGB video.  We had
> a quick reference card that briefly listed all the commands.  A competitor,
> Vermont Microsystems Inc, made a stripped down display controller and
> decided to use our command set to claim "Raster compatible".  They even
> produced a quick reference card that was clearly a copy of our card.  Then
> someone looked at our card carefully and realized we had forgotten to put a
(Continue reading)

M. Adam Davis | 12 May 04:01

Re: [EE]: opinion on Willem programmer?

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Byron Jeff <byronjeff <at> clayton.edu> wrote:
>> Apparently there is wide variation on what people consider "open source".
>
> There really isn't.

I, and many others, have a very liberal definition of "open source".
I'm sorry that you and so many others have such a closed mind about
what those two words together mean.

If you go out to the general population with a simple survey to
determined what "open source" means, you'll find an extraordinary
range of opinions.  If you go out to generic software developers in
the world - all of them, not just "open source" or "free software"
developers you'll get a _very_ similar reaction.  Of the world's
programmers, only a fraction use open or free software, a smaller
percentage ever see or work with the code, and a vanishingly small
number actually understand the difference betweem, for example, the
BSD and GPL, and  OSI and FSF, and in particular this sort of
discussion.

Only the people who have a hand in this (FSF, OSI, etc) actually care
about the subject, and to the other 95% of the programmers in the
world they couldn't care less.  The develop proprietary programs for
their companies.  They see that there's SW examples on the internet,
but all they know is they aren't allowed to use them because of the
company lawyer - they don't know that people care about the definition
of the phrase "open source."  They simply know that it's anathema.

Only those that have been involved in such discussions as this, and
those who have spent a great deal of time in the software community
(Continue reading)

Re: [EE]: opinion on Willem programmer?


On May 10, 2008, at 5:35 AM, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> I don't remember anyone claiming that something without
> a explicit copyright was illegally copied.

This actually happens relatively frequently with "artistic" works.   
You can get lots of complaints about photos and videos be copied  
inappropriately...

BillW

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Paul Hutchinson | 11 May 03:57

RE: [EE]: opinion on Willem programmer?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-bounces <at> mit.edu On Behalf Of Olin Lathrop
> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 8:36 AM
>
> Byron Jeff wrote:
> > It's the none at all that's the real problem. Without a license, no
> > one has any right to do anything with the source for your software.
>
> Are you really sure?  I am not a lawyer, but if there are no restrictions
> listed then it seems to me there are no restrictions.  Many things on the
> internet have no explicit copyright and are routinely copied.  I don't
> remember anyone claiming that something without a explicit copyright was
> illegally copied.

IANAL either but, my employer's IP legal firm went over it in detail with
me. This was back in 1991, the first time we wanted copyright protection. We
had patents and trademarks but hadn't needed copyrights until then. Here's
what I learned from the IP lawyers.

Without an explicit license all works automatically receive complete
copyright protection. This even applies to a finger painting by a three year
old child. The moment the child creates the finger painting it acquires full
copyright protection that lasts until 70 years after the death of the child.

This is not how the laws worked in the USA prior to 1978 when I entered the
work force. Back then the default status was public domain, you had to
explicitly request copyright protection if you wanted it. Starting in 1978
the default changed to full copyright protection which harmonized the US
laws with most of the rest of the world. In 1989 the requirement of placing
identifying marks on a work was removed so, anything distributed after 1989
(Continue reading)

Olin Lathrop | 11 May 15:33

Re: [EE]: opinion on Willem programmer?

Paul Hutchinson wrote:
> So, if you copy something from the internet that does not have an
> explicit public domain release statement or a license granting you
> rights, it is likely a violation of copyright law to distribute it in
> any way. If the work you copied and distributed has no identifying
> mark you won't be sued for damages but you can be made to stop
> distributing it. There is a concept of fair use but it is an
> inadequately defined legal concept generally subject to
> interpretation by the courts on a case by case basis.

So does that mean the various sites that carry copies of the PIClist traffic
are in violation of the copyrights of the individual posters, of the
"PIClist" whatever that is, of MIT?  These sites to real harm because they
make it easy to mine for email addresses, whereas James' site tries to be
careful about that.  I don't remember agreeing to give up my copyrights to
anything I write here, so who owns the rights to messages I post?

********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.
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Paul Hutchinson | 11 May 20:50

RE: [EE]: opinion on Willem programmer?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-bounces <at> mit.edu On Behalf Of Olin Lathrop
> Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 9:33 AM
>
> Paul Hutchinson wrote:
> > So, if you copy something from the internet that does not have an
<snip>
>
> So does that mean the various sites that carry copies of the
> PIClist traffic are in violation of the copyrights of the
> individual posters, of the "PIClist" whatever that is, of MIT?

PICLIST and MIT can not claim copyright on an individual's posts so, no for
them.

For individual posters, it is possibly a copyright violation. Courts have
not had an opportunity to rule on this issue. Currently there are two
popular schools of thought on this. One is that by posting you are
implicitly granting a license with broad copying and redistribution rights.
The other is that you are commanding, not consenting, to create a number of
copies without an implied license for further copying. Until a court has an
opportunity to rule on this issue it is uncertain whether or not this would
qualify as a violation of copyright. In addition to this, there is the whole
issue of fair use rights that also have not been ruled on in this context in
the courts.

> These sites to real harm because they make it easy to mine for
> email addresses, whereas James' site tries to be careful about
> that. I don't remember agreeing to give up my copyrights to
> anything I write here, so who owns the rights to messages I
(Continue reading)

Byron Jeff | 11 May 20:42

Re: [EE]: opinion on Willem programmer?

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 09:33:07AM -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Paul Hutchinson wrote:
> > So, if you copy something from the internet that does not have an
> > explicit public domain release statement or a license granting you
> > rights, it is likely a violation of copyright law to distribute it in
> > any way. If the work you copied and distributed has no identifying
> > mark you won't be sued for damages but you can be made to stop
> > distributing it. There is a concept of fair use but it is an
> > inadequately defined legal concept generally subject to
> > interpretation by the courts on a case by case basis.
> 
> So does that mean the various sites that carry copies of the PIClist traffic
> are in violation of the copyrights of the individual posters, of the
> "PIClist" whatever that is, of MIT?

Yup. Every post you write is copyrighted. I probably could get away with
fair use because I'm commenting on your post. But technically unauthorized
copies are a copyright violation.

>  These sites to real harm because they
> make it easy to mine for email addresses, whereas James' site tries to be
> careful about that.  I don't remember agreeing to give up my copyrights to
> anything I write here, so who owns the rights to messages I post?

You do. Say for the sake of argument that James wanted to publish a PicList
Book with selected writings from all of us. He'd have to go negotiate
copyright assignments for that material from each of us. Otherwise we could
sue for copyright infringement and damages.

BAJ
(Continue reading)

Gerhard Fiedler | 12 May 15:04

Re: [EE]: opinion on Willem programmer?

Byron Jeff wrote:

>> These sites to real harm because they make it easy to mine for email
>> addresses, whereas James' site tries to be careful about that.  I don't
>> remember agreeing to give up my copyrights to anything I write here, so
>> who owns the rights to messages I post?
> 
> You do. 

I think there can be made a case that by posting on the piclist, one
implicitly agrees that the post is published on all mirrors that are
currently in existence. After all, if I didn't want this, I wouldn't post,
would I?

Gerhard

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Wouter van Ooijen | 12 May 20:59

Re: [EE]: opinion on Willem programmer?

> I don't remember agreeing to give up my copyrights to
> anything I write here, so who owns the rights to messages I post?

That is an interesting question, but I doubt you will get the final 
answer to that within a few 10s of years and/or without spending $$ on 
lawyers. There is a borderline between copyright and "freedom of 
gathering news" (the english term is probably a bit different), and 
newsgroups might be somewhere near that borderline.

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Wouter van Ooijen | 12 May 20:46

Re: [EE]: opinion on Willem programmer?

> Are you really sure?  I am not a lawyer, but if there are no restrictions
> listed then it seems to me there are no restrictions.

This might vary by country, but at least in my country (Netherlands) 
everything that is

1. made public
2. falls under the set of things that is subject to copyright law

*is* copyrighted (or more precise: subject to copyright law). No (c) 
needed, AFAIK not even an option not to be subjec t to copyright law. 
(Declaring it 'free for all' does not remove the copyright; it just 
gives a license to everyone, which might be the same in practice but 
definitely not to a lawyer). And for those who think that Dutch law is 
irrelevant to for instance a USA resident: AFAIK by international treaty 
nearly all countries respect their individual copyright laws.

So far the law theory. Whether this is enforceable in practice is 
something very different...

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(Continue reading)


Gmane