Dev list for Drools rule engine ()

Mark Proctor | 1 Nov 2004 12:56

Re: [drools-dev] Schema

I have created some initial documentation in order to show why we took 
the approach of using abstract elements, root types and de-coupling 
java, groovy and python xsds from rule.xsd - with an aim to give a wider 
picture of how this currently fits in with the drools application.

http://drools.org/Schema+Validation

Mark
Roger F. Gay wrote:

>I think it will help make what we're doing more
>efficient if I repeat that I've been through the whole
>schema review process once already. I don't mean that
>my work should no longer be reviewed in the future. I
>mean that we've faced all these issues before. So, if
>I'm direct at times, it's because general
>understanding has already been developed.
>
>There will be more than one version of the schema set!
>
>Go ahead and put what I've already done into CVS.
>We'll just need to think about the names of the xsd
>files ... for example drl_base.xsd, drl_se.xsd ... and
>include clear documentation that will help application
>developers make the best choice. Some will be able to
>use one of the schema sets right out of the box, while
>others will be looking for the one that is closest to
>what they need and easiest to modify / maintain.
>
>And no -- we don't want a thousand schema sets in cvs

(Continue reading)

Roger F. Gay | 1 Nov 2004 18:59

Picon

Re: [drools-dev] Schema

The big question is why? A lot of work has been done
on the schemas and the technology has already been
developed to a more advanced stage that what you're
discussing. Matching schema design with the drools
vision was already taken up more than a year ago when
the first schema set was developed. What you're
presenting now is about as close to realizing the
dream as that first schema was for Drools 1.

I see a lot of work to be done related to the schema
(directly and indirectly related � dependent), work
that could benefit the drools project immensely.
There's plenty of work for everyone, and I don't see
the benefit of spinning the wheels in one place.

If you're acting as project leader, what's the plan?
Have you closed this part of the project to outside
contributions? Has a drools-wide decision been made to
limit interest in building new products and technology
that incorporate drools?

I have been interested in going a long way with
drools, but the character of the project seems to have
changed dramatically. I need to know what's going on.

--- Mark Proctor <mproctor <at> codehaus.org> wrote:

> I have created some initial documentation in order
> to show why we took

(Continue reading)

Mark Proctor | 1 Nov 2004 23:53

Re: [drools-dev] Schema

Roger,

As stated before I started work on the xsds as I didn't know about any 
existing xsds. The original ones had become out of date and 
unmaintained, they still had jelly refences in them, so another 
developer, not me, removed them. I checked the mailing list you last 
showed interest in drools back in March, we've had a complete developer 
turnover (minus bob ofcourse) since then, thats a long long time in the 
opensource world and drools has gone through several code maintenance 
and tidy ups since then in the transition from drools 1.0 to drools 2.0 
- if no active developer seems to be maintaining an area of code and its 
out of date with no one coming forward to maintain it, then its going to 
be deleted. If you want to work in the opensource world, learn to love 
and live with its fluid dynamic nature - like King Canute, you cannot 
hold back the tide.

The way I see it there are three options:
1) Use the xs:any tag and declare a target namespace. This was used in 
your original schemas and is not desirable as the user can literally use 
"any" tag from that namespace, so he/she could add a condition where a 
consequence is required and worse still it couples rule.drl to the 
semantic drls - as you must specify the java, groovy and python as 
available target namespaces. From your original base rule file:
<xs:group name="OptionalRuleChildren">
<xs:choice>
<xs:element name="declaration" type="drl-parameter" />
<xs:element name="extraction" type="drl-extraction" />
<xs:element name="condition" type="drl-condition" />
</xs:choice>
</xs:group>

(Continue reading)

Roger F. Gay | 2 Nov 2004 16:21

Picon

Re: [drools-dev] Schema

You're evading the questions. A complete schema set
has already been created and contributed. A second
effort, almost complete has been reported that
separates the base schema completely from semantic
support schema.

This isn't at all about out of date schemas. This is
the situation now. Why are you driving forward as
though none of that work has been done?

--- Mark Proctor <mproctor <at> codehaus.org> wrote:

> Roger,
> 
> As stated before I started work on the xsds as I
> didn't know about any 
> existing xsds. The original ones had become out of
> date and 
> unmaintained, they still had jelly refences in them,
> so another 
> developer, not me, removed them. I checked the
> mailing list you last 
> showed interest in drools back in March, we've had a
> complete developer 
> turnover (minus bob ofcourse) since then, thats a
> long long time in the 
> opensource world and drools has gone through several
> code maintenance 
> and tidy ups since then in the transition from
> drools 1.0 to drools 2.0

(Continue reading)

Mark Proctor | 2 Nov 2004 17:45

Re: [drools-dev] Schema

Roger,

As I have repeated many times before I was not aware of your xsd 
contributions. Once I became aware of your xsd contributions I reviewed 
them to see if they were applicable to be re-submitted to the tree as 
you were insistent on how much better they were;  as detailed previously 
(see email below) they would result in innapropriate warnings to the 
user due to missing drools modules so I am not willing to apply them - 
however I will be more than willing to place a prominent link from the 
docs site to your website as alternitve schema set.

With regards to you resolving the de-coupling issue, again you reported 
this AFTER Andy Barnett and myself commited working patches and as of 
yet have not given us anything to review. In the mean time I'm trying to 
get a beta out with something that works this week, I'm currently 
refactoring drools.io.RuleSetReader to make it easier for me to make the 
drl changes that I need to - imports, application data and functions 
(although the later two will not be in this beta) - I'm spending far to 
much time in this ongoing xsd dialogue.

I have always welcomed your contributions and asked they be submitted as 
patches, is that such a bad thing? Patches are the normal way of 
contributing work to an opensource project as the impact from the patch 
is easier to digest than from whole file(s).  I would love to see what 
you have with schematron, I know that the drools schemas can be improved 
and restrained further and I dont have the time to spend on this so your 
contributions would be very helpfull. So please work with us do a cvs 
checkout and submit a patch/jira/justification and lets get your work 
back in the tree.

(Continue reading)

Roger F. Gay | 3 Nov 2004 15:22

Picon

Re: [drools-dev] Schema

Mark,

I tried not to say so directly because I'm a nice guy
who knows it's important to get along with people in
working groups. You're telling me that you're aware
of(critical of) my work and not aware of it at the
same time. You also voted on the JIRA issue that you
are dealing with right now -- the JIRA issue that I
submitted (DROOLS-65) regarding modification of the
Schema -- long before this.

The schema you created did not work at all .. could
not even be read by a schema processor ... let alone
properly check a DRL. I tried with three different
schema processors -- all three rejected it. 

My schema set has been distributed and I'm sure that
those who tried it have already discovered that your
critism of it is untrue. For the sake of the project,
I'd like to suggest that you NOT make modifications to
other software to accomodate your schema work.

I also feel bad that you've forced me to deal with
things in this way -- but I don't see it as beneficial
to participate through a dishonest filter.

--- Mark Proctor <mproctor <at> codehaus.org> wrote:

> Roger,
>

(Continue reading)

Mark Proctor | 3 Nov 2004 17:19

Re: [drools-dev] Schema

I no longer have the bandwidth to deal with this ongoing discussion, we 
will have to discuss this further once 2.0 final is released, unless you 
can find another developer to help you resolve your issues. In the 
meantime I repeat what I have said before, submit a patch with 
justification and if it improves on what we have I will apply it, or 
send in a constructive critique on what we have now. The schemas work 
fine, without errors,  when being parsed by Xerces via a jaxp1.2 api and 
this is checked every time a rule is loaded.

Regards

Mark
Roger F. Gay wrote:

>Mark,
>
>I tried not to say so directly because I'm a nice guy
>who knows it's important to get along with people in
>working groups. You're telling me that you're aware
>of(critical of) my work and not aware of it at the
>same time. You also voted on the JIRA issue that you
>are dealing with right now -- the JIRA issue that I
>submitted (DROOLS-65) regarding modification of the
>Schema -- long before this.
>
>The schema you created did not work at all .. could
>not even be read by a schema processor ... let alone
>properly check a DRL. I tried with three different
>schema processors -- all three rejected it. 
>

(Continue reading)

Roger F. Gay | 3 Nov 2004 19:37

Picon

Re: [drools-dev] Schema

You really ticked me off with this stuff right from
the start -- lying by saying you were unaware of the
existing schema and then having the balls to ask for
my cooperation to fix yours. No -- I'm not interested
in forging a strategic partnership with someone who's
trying to make a fool of me.

I'm certainly not asking you to help me fix my schema.
Mine's the one that is correct. Your critisism that
"they would result in innapropriate warnings to the
user due to missing drools modules" doesn't even make
any sense.

--- Mark Proctor <mproctor <at> codehaus.org> wrote:

> I no longer have the bandwidth to deal with this
> ongoing discussion, we 
> will have to discuss this further once 2.0 final is
> released, unless you 
> can find another developer to help you resolve your
> issues. In the 
> meantime I repeat what I have said before, submit a
> patch with 
> justification and if it improves on what we have I
> will apply it, or 
> send in a constructive critique on what we have now.
> The schemas work 
> fine, without errors,  when being parsed by Xerces
> via a jaxp1.2 api and

(Continue reading)

Mark Proctor | 3 Nov 2004 20:44

Re: [drools-dev] Schema

 From IRC logs. Notice I (conan)  didn't want to work on schemas and had 
been trying to get others, glenn and hopeless, to do the work. Now 
please stop wasting my time.
[2004-09-13 13:22:23] <hopeless> I'm gonna ask a stupid question but 
it's not in the FAQ and breif googling didn't help
[2004-09-13 13:22:47] <hopeless> Where's the DTD or Schema for drools files?
[2004-09-13 13:22:58] <conan> hopeless: you want to speak to glenn about 
that
[2004-09-13 13:23:02] <conan> glenn: ;)
[2004-09-13 13:23:12] <conan> he's our schema export
[2004-09-13 13:23:14] <conan> expert
[2004-09-13 13:23:55] <hopeless> ah, so it's not easily available I guess?
[2004-09-13 13:25:46] <conan> glenn: is the schema easily accessible? ;)
[2004-09-13 13:26:19] <conan> hopeless: sorry its a bit of an in joke, 
we dont have a schema yet. I'm currently trying to rope in an individual 
to do it.
[2004-09-13 13:27:28] <hopeless> ok, no problem with the schema - I'm 
just lazy and wanted some xml code completion!
[2004-09-13 13:29:59] <conan> hopeless: wanna help us do one?
---------------------------------------------------------
[2004-09-13 16:16:25] <conan> I'm just looking into this schema stuff 
now, doesn't look to hard
[2004-09-13 20:16:20] <conan> hmm got a basic schema going, it 
validates. but xmlbuddies context assign doesn't pick up anything? 
anyone here use xml buddy?
[2004-09-13 22:51:55] <conan> cool I  think I've done it, xml schemas 
for drools :)
---------------------------------------------------------
[2004-09-17 20:48:22] <conan> didn't know someone had already worked on 
the schemas stuff, wonder who Roger F. Gay is

(Continue reading)

peter royal | 2 Nov 2004 17:19

Picon

Re: [drools-dev] Schema

On Nov 2, 2004, at 10:21 AM, Roger F. Gay wrote:
> You're evading the questions. A complete schema set
> has already been created and contributed. A second
> effort, almost complete has been reported that
> separates the base schema completely from semantic
> support schema.
>
> This isn't at all about out of date schemas. This is
> the situation now. Why are you driving forward as
> though none of that work has been done?

Roger, I don't see a JIRA issue for any updated schemas, did I overlook 
it?

The only open JIRA issue wrt schemas I found was:

http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/DROOLS-65

.. and that's a year old (and clearly references out-of-date schemas).

It sounds as if your work is useful and may be more comprehensive than 
what Mark has. Please create a JIRA issue with patches against the 
current codebase and we'll check it out.
cheers
-pete

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Roger F. Gay | 3 Nov 2004 15:15

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Re: [drools-dev] Schema

I also submitted DROOLS-62, which is reported as
linked to DROOLS-65 and I've asked for review of the
JIRA issue (65) that you've pointed to, but have not
recieved any concrete response. The old Schema set
that is referred to in that JIRA comment (65) has been
updated and distributed, but not put in CVS, and not
noted in JIRA.

I've also asked Bob to check on my JIRA access.
Apparently, I don't remember my account name or
password -- because I was unsuccessful when I tried to
log in -- maybe something to do with the new website
-- don't even know if my account is still active.

I currently live in a place in Sweden in which
internet access is very expensive, so I am using cyber
cafes for the moment. It is not practical for me to
set up for CVS upload and IRC access unless there are
some new tricks for doing so that I don't know about.

I've asked for help getting these tasks taken care of.

--- peter royal <peter.royal <at> pobox.com> wrote:

> On Nov 2, 2004, at 10:21 AM, Roger F. Gay wrote:
> > You're evading the questions. A complete schema
> set
> > has already been created and contributed. A second
> > effort, almost complete has been reported that

(Continue reading)

peter royal | 1 Nov 2004 20:58

Picon

Re: [drools-dev] Schema

On Nov 1, 2004, at 12:59 PM, Roger F. Gay wrote:
> I see a lot of work to be done related to the schema
> (directly and indirectly related  dependent), work
> that could benefit the drools project immensely.
> There's plenty of work for everyone, and I don't see
> the benefit of spinning the wheels in one place.

excellent! can you create an issue in JIRA and attach patches to bring 
the schemas in CVS up to the level where they need to be?

> Have you closed this part of the project to outside
> contributions? Has a drools-wide decision been made to
> limit interest in building new products and technology
> that incorporate drools?

not at all... its just that drools is a do-ocracy and Mark has been 
doing a lot of the work. (Thanks Mark!)

we're more than happy to incorporate outside contributions, we just ask 
that patches against the CVS code be attached to a JIRA issue at which 
point in time they'll get reviewed and either applied or feedback 
given.
-pete

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