vinodkiran | 5 Jun 2012 18:14
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[rules-dev] scorecard metaphor in drools?

Are there any thoughts on adding support for scorecards at the engine level? 

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Wolfgang Laun | 5 Jun 2012 18:33
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Re: [rules-dev] scorecard metaphor in drools?

Golf scorecards?
Balanced Scorecards?
Pollution scorecards?
Soccer scorecards? (OK, but too late for this Euro)
...?
-W

On 5 June 2012 18:14, vinodkiran <vinodkiran <at> usa.net> wrote:
Are there any thoughts on adding support for scorecards at the engine level?

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vinodkiran | 5 Jun 2012 19:28
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Re: [rules-dev] scorecard metaphor in drools?

Score Models / Scorecards

The Score Model / Scorecards is a common model used in scoring - a type of
statistical approach, per Predictive Analytics - to allow a subjective score
to be defined against some criteria for some decisioning purpose (eg credit
scoring).

A scorecard represents an assessment, opinion, or prediction about the
customer or prospect. In other decision metaphors such as decision tables or
decision trees, the values for rule conditions and actions are set by the
user. In a scorecard, the properties and values for rule conditions and the
rule action are generated using the values entered in the scorecard. The
attribute scores are summed to return an overall score and the resulting
score. This overall score is then available for use by other rulesets,
functions, decision tables, and decision trees.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=9AqRlUOaoVIC&pg=PA142&lpg=PA142&dq=%22score+model%22+BRMS&source=bl&ots=aUu8DyFp_t&sig=nbfyKFGaUhw762__pQTUMTE5xis&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wEDOT76XKcGzrAe84ZWqDA&ved=0CE0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22score%20model%22%20BRMS&f=false

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Wolfgang Laun | 5 Jun 2012 19:40
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Re: [rules-dev] scorecard metaphor in drools?

Thanks!

This would not be implemented at "the Engine level"; it would be a (more or less) complex
framework similar to what there is now (in Drools) for decision tables. But the evaluation for such
a scorecard is much less predictable than the one for a decision table, which can be
defined in terms of Drools Rule Language conditions, constraints and actions.

If there is a more or less straightforward way of defining constraints and actions from a scorecard,
it might not be so much different from the approach used for decision tables. But is there a
commonly agreed-upon way of deriving the those from a scorecard? Is there a commonly
agreed-upon abstract structure for S.C. as there is one for spreadsheets?

-W
 

On 5 June 2012 19:28, vinodkiran <vinodkiran <at> usa.net> wrote:
Score Models / Scorecards

The Score Model / Scorecards is a common model used in scoring - a type of
statistical approach, per Predictive Analytics - to allow a subjective score
to be defined against some criteria for some decisioning purpose (eg credit
scoring).

A scorecard represents an assessment, opinion, or prediction about the
customer or prospect. In other decision metaphors such as decision tables or
decision trees, the values for rule conditions and actions are set by the
user. In a scorecard, the properties and values for rule conditions and the
rule action are generated using the values entered in the scorecard. The
attribute scores are summed to return an overall score and the resulting
score. This overall score is then available for use by other rulesets,
functions, decision tables, and decision trees.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=9AqRlUOaoVIC&pg=PA142&lpg=PA142&dq=%22score+model%22+BRMS&source=bl&ots=aUu8DyFp_t&sig=nbfyKFGaUhw762__pQTUMTE5xis&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wEDOT76XKcGzrAe84ZWqDA&ved=0CE0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22score%20model%22%20BRMS&f=false


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Michael Anstis | 5 Jun 2012 21:55
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Re: [rules-dev] scorecard metaphor in drools?

There's an experimental module called https://github.com/droolsjbpm/drools-chance

There are various sources on the internet about using PMML for Score Cards: e.g. http://adapasupport.zementis.com/2010/02/scorecards-in-pmml-primer.html

Might be worth looking at - I'm sure Davide Sotty would welcome feedback.

With kind regards,

Mike

On 5 June 2012 18:40, Wolfgang Laun <wolfgang.laun <at> gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks!

This would not be implemented at "the Engine level"; it would be a (more or less) complex
framework similar to what there is now (in Drools) for decision tables. But the evaluation for such
a scorecard is much less predictable than the one for a decision table, which can be
defined in terms of Drools Rule Language conditions, constraints and actions.

If there is a more or less straightforward way of defining constraints and actions from a scorecard,
it might not be so much different from the approach used for decision tables. But is there a
commonly agreed-upon way of deriving the those from a scorecard? Is there a commonly
agreed-upon abstract structure for S.C. as there is one for spreadsheets?

-W

 

On 5 June 2012 19:28, vinodkiran <vinodkiran <at> usa.net> wrote:
Score Models / Scorecards

The Score Model / Scorecards is a common model used in scoring - a type of
statistical approach, per Predictive Analytics - to allow a subjective score
to be defined against some criteria for some decisioning purpose (eg credit
scoring).

A scorecard represents an assessment, opinion, or prediction about the
customer or prospect. In other decision metaphors such as decision tables or
decision trees, the values for rule conditions and actions are set by the
user. In a scorecard, the properties and values for rule conditions and the
rule action are generated using the values entered in the scorecard. The
attribute scores are summed to return an overall score and the resulting
score. This overall score is then available for use by other rulesets,
functions, decision tables, and decision trees.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=9AqRlUOaoVIC&pg=PA142&lpg=PA142&dq=%22score+model%22+BRMS&source=bl&ots=aUu8DyFp_t&sig=nbfyKFGaUhw762__pQTUMTE5xis&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wEDOT76XKcGzrAe84ZWqDA&ved=0CE0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22score%20model%22%20BRMS&f=false


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Michael Anstis | 5 Jun 2012 21:55
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Re: [rules-dev] scorecard metaphor in drools?

Doh, forgot to mention the drools-change module supports PMML.

Helps if I join the dots up :)

On 5 June 2012 20:55, Michael Anstis <michael.anstis <at> gmail.com> wrote:
There's an experimental module called https://github.com/droolsjbpm/drools-chance

There are various sources on the internet about using PMML for Score Cards: e.g. http://adapasupport.zementis.com/2010/02/scorecards-in-pmml-primer.html

Might be worth looking at - I'm sure Davide Sotty would welcome feedback.

With kind regards,

Mike


On 5 June 2012 18:40, Wolfgang Laun <wolfgang.laun <at> gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks!

This would not be implemented at "the Engine level"; it would be a (more or less) complex
framework similar to what there is now (in Drools) for decision tables. But the evaluation for such
a scorecard is much less predictable than the one for a decision table, which can be
defined in terms of Drools Rule Language conditions, constraints and actions.

If there is a more or less straightforward way of defining constraints and actions from a scorecard,
it might not be so much different from the approach used for decision tables. But is there a
commonly agreed-upon way of deriving the those from a scorecard? Is there a commonly
agreed-upon abstract structure for S.C. as there is one for spreadsheets?

-W

 

On 5 June 2012 19:28, vinodkiran <vinodkiran <at> usa.net> wrote:
Score Models / Scorecards

The Score Model / Scorecards is a common model used in scoring - a type of
statistical approach, per Predictive Analytics - to allow a subjective score
to be defined against some criteria for some decisioning purpose (eg credit
scoring).

A scorecard represents an assessment, opinion, or prediction about the
customer or prospect. In other decision metaphors such as decision tables or
decision trees, the values for rule conditions and actions are set by the
user. In a scorecard, the properties and values for rule conditions and the
rule action are generated using the values entered in the scorecard. The
attribute scores are summed to return an overall score and the resulting
score. This overall score is then available for use by other rulesets,
functions, decision tables, and decision trees.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=9AqRlUOaoVIC&pg=PA142&lpg=PA142&dq=%22score+model%22+BRMS&source=bl&ots=aUu8DyFp_t&sig=nbfyKFGaUhw762__pQTUMTE5xis&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wEDOT76XKcGzrAe84ZWqDA&ved=0CE0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22score%20model%22%20BRMS&f=false


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vinodkiran | 6 Jun 2012 04:36
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Re: [rules-dev] scorecard metaphor in drools?

manstis:
I have looked at drools-chance, and my understanding  is that this module is
closely tied to PMML file format, I was more looking for a generic score
models (additive/weighted/...) that can be defined using excel (and at some
point through a custom UI). 

laune:
I agree that this is not a core "engine" functionality, and can be built on
similar lines as the decision tables module. My original question was not
phrased properly :(

Now that we have covered the basics of my question, can either one of you
point to any work/discussion in the drools community in this direction?
Also, if I have some thoughts on this subject (creating this framework), who
would be the person(s) to brainstorm? Who would provide me with a go/no-go
for working on this?

manstis wrote
> 
> Doh, forgot to mention the drools-change module supports PMML.
> 
> Helps if I join the dots up :)
> 
> On 5 June 2012 20:55, Michael Anstis &lt;michael.anstis <at> &gt; wrote:
> 
>> There's an experimental module called
>> https://github.com/droolsjbpm/drools-chance
>>
>> There are various sources on the internet about using PMML for Score
>> Cards: e.g.
>> http://adapasupport.zementis.com/2010/02/scorecards-in-pmml-primer.html
>>
>> Might be worth looking at - I'm sure Davide Sotty would welcome feedback.
>>
>> With kind regards,
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> On 5 June 2012 18:40, Wolfgang Laun &lt;wolfgang.laun <at> &gt; wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> This would not be implemented at "the Engine level"; it would be a (more
>>> or less) complex
>>> framework similar to what there is now (in Drools) for decision tables.
>>> But the evaluation for such
>>> a scorecard is much less predictable than the one for a decision table,
>>> which can be
>>> defined in terms of Drools Rule Language conditions, constraints and
>>> actions.
>>>
>>> If there is a more or less straightforward way of defining constraints
>>> and actions from a scorecard,
>>> it might not be so much different from the approach used for decision
>>> tables. But is there a
>>> commonly agreed-upon way of deriving the those from a scorecard? Is
>>> there
>>> a commonly
>>> agreed-upon abstract structure for S.C. as there is one for
>>> spreadsheets?
>>>
>>> -W
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5 June 2012 19:28, vinodkiran &lt;vinodkiran <at> &gt; wrote:
>>>
>>>> Score Models / Scorecards
>>>>
>>>> The Score Model / Scorecards is a common model used in scoring - a type
>>>> of
>>>> statistical approach, per Predictive Analytics - to allow a subjective
>>>> score
>>>> to be defined against some criteria for some decisioning purpose (eg
>>>> credit
>>>> scoring).
>>>>
>>>> A scorecard represents an assessment, opinion, or prediction about the
>>>> customer or prospect. In other decision metaphors such as decision
>>>> tables or
>>>> decision trees, the values for rule conditions and actions are set by
>>>> the
>>>> user. In a scorecard, the properties and values for rule conditions and
>>>> the
>>>> rule action are generated using the values entered in the scorecard.
>>>> The
>>>> attribute scores are summed to return an overall score and the
>>>> resulting
>>>> score. This overall score is then available for use by other rulesets,
>>>> functions, decision tables, and decision trees.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://books.google.co.in/books?id=9AqRlUOaoVIC&pg=PA142&lpg=PA142&dq=%22score+model%22+BRMS&source=bl&ots=aUu8DyFp_t&sig=nbfyKFGaUhw762__pQTUMTE5xis&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wEDOT76XKcGzrAe84ZWqDA&ved=0CE0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22score%20model%22%20BRMS&f=false
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context:
>>>> http://drools.46999.n3.nabble.com/scorecard-metaphor-in-drools-tp4017756p4017758.html
>>>> Sent from the Drools: Developer (committer) mailing list mailing list
>>>> archive at Nabble.com.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> rules-dev mailing list
>>>> rules-dev <at> .jboss
>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-dev
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> rules-dev mailing list
>>> rules-dev <at> .jboss
>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-dev
>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> rules-dev mailing list
> rules-dev <at> .jboss
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-dev
> 

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Mark Proctor | 6 Jun 2012 05:00

Re: [rules-dev] scorecard metaphor in drools?

There is currently no core developer activity on this, and it's not 
planned near term. If anyone in the community wants to take this up, 
would be great if they could build it into our web based dtable tool.

Mark
On 06/06/2012 03:36, vinodkiran wrote:
> manstis:
> I have looked at drools-chance, and my understanding  is that this module is
> closely tied to PMML file format, I was more looking for a generic score
> models (additive/weighted/...) that can be defined using excel (and at some
> point through a custom UI).
>
> laune:
> I agree that this is not a core "engine" functionality, and can be built on
> similar lines as the decision tables module. My original question was not
> phrased properly :(
>
> Now that we have covered the basics of my question, can either one of you
> point to any work/discussion in the drools community in this direction?
> Also, if I have some thoughts on this subject (creating this framework), who
> would be the person(s) to brainstorm? Who would provide me with a go/no-go
> for working on this?
>
>
> manstis wrote
>> Doh, forgot to mention the drools-change module supports PMML.
>>
>> Helps if I join the dots up :)
>>
>> On 5 June 2012 20:55, Michael Anstis&lt;michael.anstis <at> &gt; wrote:
>>
>>> There's an experimental module called
>>> https://github.com/droolsjbpm/drools-chance
>>>
>>> There are various sources on the internet about using PMML for Score
>>> Cards: e.g.
>>> http://adapasupport.zementis.com/2010/02/scorecards-in-pmml-primer.html
>>>
>>> Might be worth looking at - I'm sure Davide Sotty would welcome feedback.
>>>
>>> With kind regards,
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5 June 2012 18:40, Wolfgang Laun&lt;wolfgang.laun <at> &gt; wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> This would not be implemented at "the Engine level"; it would be a (more
>>>> or less) complex
>>>> framework similar to what there is now (in Drools) for decision tables.
>>>> But the evaluation for such
>>>> a scorecard is much less predictable than the one for a decision table,
>>>> which can be
>>>> defined in terms of Drools Rule Language conditions, constraints and
>>>> actions.
>>>>
>>>> If there is a more or less straightforward way of defining constraints
>>>> and actions from a scorecard,
>>>> it might not be so much different from the approach used for decision
>>>> tables. But is there a
>>>> commonly agreed-upon way of deriving the those from a scorecard? Is
>>>> there
>>>> a commonly
>>>> agreed-upon abstract structure for S.C. as there is one for
>>>> spreadsheets?
>>>>
>>>> -W
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 5 June 2012 19:28, vinodkiran&lt;vinodkiran <at> &gt; wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Score Models / Scorecards
>>>>>
>>>>> The Score Model / Scorecards is a common model used in scoring - a type
>>>>> of
>>>>> statistical approach, per Predictive Analytics - to allow a subjective
>>>>> score
>>>>> to be defined against some criteria for some decisioning purpose (eg
>>>>> credit
>>>>> scoring).
>>>>>
>>>>> A scorecard represents an assessment, opinion, or prediction about the
>>>>> customer or prospect. In other decision metaphors such as decision
>>>>> tables or
>>>>> decision trees, the values for rule conditions and actions are set by
>>>>> the
>>>>> user. In a scorecard, the properties and values for rule conditions and
>>>>> the
>>>>> rule action are generated using the values entered in the scorecard.
>>>>> The
>>>>> attribute scores are summed to return an overall score and the
>>>>> resulting
>>>>> score. This overall score is then available for use by other rulesets,
>>>>> functions, decision tables, and decision trees.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://books.google.co.in/books?id=9AqRlUOaoVIC&pg=PA142&lpg=PA142&dq=%22score+model%22+BRMS&source=bl&ots=aUu8DyFp_t&sig=nbfyKFGaUhw762__pQTUMTE5xis&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wEDOT76XKcGzrAe84ZWqDA&ved=0CE0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22score%20model%22%20BRMS&f=false
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>> http://drools.46999.n3.nabble.com/scorecard-metaphor-in-drools-tp4017756p4017758.html
>>>>> Sent from the Drools: Developer (committer) mailing list mailing list
>>>>> archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> rules-dev mailing list
>>>>> rules-dev <at> .jboss
>>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-dev
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> rules-dev mailing list
>>>> rules-dev <at> .jboss
>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-dev
>>>>
>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rules-dev mailing list
>> rules-dev <at> .jboss
>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-dev
>>
>
> --
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Wolfgang Laun | 6 Jun 2012 07:36
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Re: [rules-dev] scorecard metaphor in drools?

On 06/06/2012, vinodkiran <vinodkiran <at> usa.net> wrote:
> laune:
> I agree that this is not a core "engine" functionality, and can be built on
> similar lines as the decision tables module. My original question was not
> phrased properly :(

All right, the dust has settled :)

>
> Now that we have covered the basics of my question, can either one of you
> point to any work/discussion in the drools community in this direction?
> Also, if I have some thoughts on this subject (creating this framework),
> who
> would be the person(s) to brainstorm? Who would provide me with a go/no-go
> for working on this?

You can have me anytime for a discussion, review of specs and/or
design. The least I usually do (as others will confirm) is to play the
devil's advocate. Sometimes I even provide the odd veggie for the
soup. I also admit that I have meddled with implementation of the
spreadsheet compiler, but this may or may not be an asset in this
case. Guvnor is totally alien to me; I consider rule authoring via a
GUI akin to driving by chauffeur, i.e., much less fun, while admitting
that both is a safer way of life for many.

-W
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