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Jaroslaw S | 1 Dec 2009 14:45
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Re: 2.2 Release plan

2009/12/1 Cyrille Berger <cberger <at> cberger.net>:
> On a side note, about Qt/KDE dependencies. We had a lot of discussion in the
> past on the subject, but no real conclusion. What is sure is that Krita 2.2
> will require Qt 4.6 (and therefor KDE 4.4), the reason is that 4.6 brings
> important fix to tablet support. Since there is no real reason to impose that
> dependency on other applications (unless other applications want to), that
> requirement would apply only to Krita.

From the packagers POV:
But how to do that if Krita comes in the same tarball as the other apps?

Is there a plan to have #ifdefs in Krita to support builds for OSes
that are based on Qt 4.5
(OK for those that agree with the degraded feature(s) or performace)?

--

-- 
regards / pozdrawiam, Jaroslaw Staniek
 Kexi & KOffice (http://www.kexi-project.org, http://www.koffice.org)
 KDE Libraries for MS Windows (http://windows.kde.org)
 http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek
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Boudewijn Rempt | 1 Dec 2009 15:00

Re: 2.2 Release plan

On Tue, 1 Dec 2009, Jaroslaw S wrote:

> But how to do that if Krita comes in the same tarball as the other apps?

When we make the move, I want Krita to be disabled if Qt 4.6 isn't present.

> 
> Is there a plan to have #ifdefs in Krita to support builds for OSes
> that are based on Qt 4.5
> (OK for those that agree with the degraded feature(s) or performace)?

For 2.2 and later I really don't want to make Krita availalble for
Qt 4.5. 

Boudewijn
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Cyrille Berger | 1 Dec 2009 15:14

Re: 2.2 Release plan

On Tuesday 01 December 2009, Jaroslaw S wrote:
> From the packagers POV:
> But how to do that if Krita comes in the same tarball as the other apps?
> 
> Is there a plan to have #ifdefs in Krita to support builds for OSes
> that are based on Qt 4.5
> (OK for those that agree with the degraded feature(s) or performace)?
To be explicit, Qt 4.5 => no krita 2.2, there is no #ifdef that can save you 
from that, since what we are interested in the bug fix deep in Qt 4.6 that 
makes tablet work out of the box, instead of having to tell users that they 
need to edit their hal files.
Since Krita is advertised as a paint application, it is a must have. So OSes 
that are based on Qt 4.5 and won't have 4.6 (is there any ?) won't have krita 
2.2.

--

-- 
Cyrille Berger
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Jaroslaw S | 1 Dec 2009 16:30
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Re: 2.2 Release plan

2009/12/1 Cyrille Berger <cberger <at> cberger.net>:
> On Tuesday 01 December 2009, Jaroslaw S wrote:
>> From the packagers POV:
>> But how to do that if Krita comes in the same tarball as the other apps?
>>
>> Is there a plan to have #ifdefs in Krita to support builds for OSes
>> that are based on Qt 4.5
>> (OK for those that agree with the degraded feature(s) or performace)?
> To be explicit, Qt 4.5 => no krita 2.2, there is no #ifdef that can save you
> from that, since what we are interested in the bug fix deep in Qt 4.6 that
> makes tablet work out of the box, instead of having to tell users that they
> need to edit their hal files.
> Since Krita is advertised as a paint application, it is a must have. So OSes
> that are based on Qt 4.5 and won't have 4.6 (is there any ?) won't have krita
> 2.2.

This is your choice of course and the discussion is not new.
It is 100% OK assuming:

a) all supported users are tablet users

b) there are no improvements in 2.2 other than tabled support

c) only users able to upgrade their OSes can benefit from advancements
made in Krita
    (not all users can: not all own the running computers, suboptimal
policies e.g. in schools can prevent that,
    or technically upgrade is not possible because the OS is based on
LiveCD/DVD/other readonly medium)
(Continue reading)

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Thomas Zander | 1 Dec 2009 16:47
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Re: 2.2 Release plan

On Tuesday 1. December 2009 16.30.23 Jaroslaw S wrote:
> This is your choice of course and the discussion is not new.

The answer we had previously on a similar issue (koffice1 coinstallable with 
koffice2) is simple; users that choose to upgrade their Krita from 2.1 to 2.2 
will have to upgrade their Qt at the same time.
I don't see any packager issues with that. I don't see any problems with 
people compiling either. Qt4.6.0 is out and available already today.

--

-- 
Thomas Zander
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Jaroslaw S | 1 Dec 2009 22:54
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Re: 2.2 Release plan

2009/12/1 Thomas Zander <zander <at> kde.org>:
> On Tuesday 1. December 2009 16.30.23 Jaroslaw S wrote:
>> This is your choice of course and the discussion is not new.
>
> The answer we had previously on a similar issue (koffice1 coinstallable with
> koffice2) is simple; users that choose to upgrade their Krita from 2.1 to 2.2
> will have to upgrade their Qt at the same time.
> I don't see any packager issues with that.

Is KDE 4.3 supposed to work with Qt 4.6?
If not, minor upgrate to one of the KOffice app requires:
* updating other KOffice apps
* updating KDElibs

This looks like each KDElibs 4.x series has shorter live than it could.
The reason why I am looking at giving it possibly longer live time is
because I consider KDelibs ant Qt libs as a system component.

> I don't see any problems with
> people compiling either. Qt4.6.0 is out and available already today.

That's great news that there's the release.

--

-- 
regards / pozdrawiam, Jaroslaw Staniek
 Kexi & KOffice (http://www.kexi-project.org, http://www.koffice.org)
 KDE Libraries for MS Windows (http://windows.kde.org)
 http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek
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Cyrille Berger | 1 Dec 2009 23:19

Re: 2.2 Release plan

On Tue, Dec 01, 2009, Jaroslaw S wrote:
> 2009/12/1 Thomas Zander <zander <at> kde.org>:
> > On Tuesday 1. December 2009 16.30.23 Jaroslaw S wrote:
> >> This is your choice of course and the discussion is not new.
> >
> > The answer we had previously on a similar issue (koffice1 coinstallable with
> > koffice2) is simple; users that choose to upgrade their Krita from 2.1 to 2.2
> > will have to upgrade their Qt at the same time.
> > I don't see any packager issues with that.
> 
> Is KDE 4.3 supposed to work with Qt 4.6?
> If not, minor upgrate to one of the KOffice app requires:
> * updating other KOffice apps
why ? Or are you suggesting that 2.2 should only work with 4.3, otherwise, other
koffice applications have to work with 4.4 and Qt 4.6, because spring release
of disitributions will be using that. In other word, other applications, have the
choice between still supporting K4.3/Qt4.5 as well as K4.4/Qt4.6, or only the later.

> * updating KDElibs
yes, so what ?

I am a bit confused by this whole conversation, and think you are creating problems
where they are inexistant. You can safely assume that Krita devs take decision
regarding Krita that are in the best interest of Krita. But if that decision also
affects other applications, we indeed need to find a solution, but I have no idea of
how having Krita requires at least K4.4/Qt4.6 has any effect on other koffice
applications, so if you can be specific on the subject, I would appreciate details.

--

-- 
Cyrille Berger
(Continue reading)

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Jaroslaw S | 1 Dec 2009 23:47
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Re: 2.2 Release plan

2009/12/1 Cyrille Berger <cberger <at> cberger.net>:
> On Tue, Dec 01, 2009, Jaroslaw S wrote:
>> 2009/12/1 Thomas Zander <zander <at> kde.org>:
>> > On Tuesday 1. December 2009 16.30.23 Jaroslaw S wrote:
>> >> This is your choice of course and the discussion is not new.
>> >
>> > The answer we had previously on a similar issue (koffice1 coinstallable with
>> > koffice2) is simple; users that choose to upgrade their Krita from 2.1 to 2.2
>> > will have to upgrade their Qt at the same time.
>> > I don't see any packager issues with that.
>>
>> Is KDE 4.3 supposed to work with Qt 4.6?
>> If not, minor upgrate to one of the KOffice app requires:
>> * updating other KOffice apps
> why ? Or are you suggesting that 2.2 should only work with 4.3, otherwise, other
> koffice applications have to work with 4.4 and Qt 4.6, because spring release
> of disitributions will be using that. In other word, other applications, have the
> choice between still supporting K4.3/Qt4.5 as well as K4.4/Qt4.6, or only the later.

Please excuse me the insanely long thread.
We share kofficelibs and kdelibs and keep only one version installed
of these. If not all koffice 2.2 applications allows (even degraded)
installation for KDE 4.3/Qt4.5, users of KDE 4.3 [*] will either have
to only install these 2.2 applications that were backported to KDE
4.3/Qt4.5, and uninstall the other that require massive upgrade.

[*] users of KDE 4.3 not upgrading for any reason (we try not to
discuss this - either KDE is a platform or not and then is a moving
point that bundles applications and libraries as one 'metapackage')
(Continue reading)

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Cyrille Berger | 2 Dec 2009 00:32

Re: 2.2 Release plan

On Tue, Dec 01, 2009, Jaroslaw S wrote:
> Please excuse me the insanely long thread.
> We share kofficelibs and kdelibs and keep only one version installed
> of these. If not all koffice 2.2 applications allows (even degraded)
> installation for KDE 4.3/Qt4.5, users of KDE 4.3 [*] will either have
> to only install these 2.2 applications that were backported to KDE
> 4.3/Qt4.5, and uninstall the other that require massive upgrade.
yes, so we agree :)

Let me remind you that Krita aimed to be a digital painting application,
For such an application, a tablet is not a gadget, it is an essential
component. Therefor non-working tablet is a near critical issue. It use
to work fine in the past because linux distributions required the user to
configure by hand their X11 (and also applications, in 1.6 you had to tell
Krita that there is a tablet, to quote a french humourist "the driver
is what tell the electrical plug that the dish washer is plug on it").
Works has been done recently to fix that issue, and to make tablet just
work, in the linux kernel, xorg and Qt. But the first version of Qt that
just work is 4.6. Older versions are even extremely hard to configure to
make them work. Given that we consider tablet to be an essential part of
Krita, and that broken tablet support means broken Krita, so we are willing
to tell our users "if you want krita 2.2, you need Qt 4.6".

--

-- 
Cyrille Berger
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Jaroslaw S | 2 Dec 2009 01:20
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Re: 2.2 Release plan

2009/12/2 Cyrille Berger <cberger <at> cberger.net>:
> On Tue, Dec 01, 2009, Jaroslaw S wrote:
>> Please excuse me the insanely long thread.
>> We share kofficelibs and kdelibs and keep only one version installed
>> of these. If not all koffice 2.2 applications allows (even degraded)
>> installation for KDE 4.3/Qt4.5, users of KDE 4.3 [*] will either have
>> to only install these 2.2 applications that were backported to KDE
>> 4.3/Qt4.5, and uninstall the other that require massive upgrade.
> yes, so we agree :)
>
> Let me remind you that Krita aimed to be a digital painting application,
> For such an application, a tablet is not a gadget, it is an essential
> component. Therefor non-working tablet is a near critical issue. It use
> to work fine in the past because linux distributions required the user to
> configure by hand their X11 (and also applications, in 1.6 you had to tell
> Krita that there is a tablet, to quote a french humourist "the driver
> is what tell the electrical plug that the dish washer is plug on it").
> Works has been done recently to fix that issue, and to make tablet just
> work, in the linux kernel, xorg and Qt. But the first version of Qt that
> just work is 4.6. Older versions are even extremely hard to configure to
> make them work. Given that we consider tablet to be an essential part of
> Krita, and that broken tablet support means broken Krita, so we are willing
> to tell our users "if you want krita 2.2, you need Qt 4.6".

I understand your motivation for the delivering all the new features
and having users only to run the newest platform (==Qt, KDElibs). But
we're not packaging binaries, we do not control distros, we at most
can have good relations wih the folks.
Therefore if some distro wants to _backport_  2.2 to the KDE 4.3-based
version, it's free to do it.
(Continue reading)

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Cyrille Berger | 2 Dec 2009 09:28

Re: 2.2 Release plan

On Wednesday 02 December 2009, Jaroslaw S wrote:
> Isn't easier to rephrase: "if you want tablet support use krita 2.2
> with Qt 4.6" ?
> That would mean for a distro X: "if you want tablet support, use
> distro X 2010, not X 2009."
No it is easier to say, with Krita 2.2 your tablet will work out of the box.
If you say to the user "for tablet support use Qt 4.6", answer "what the fuck 
is Qt ?"

No tablet in Krita, it is like saying you have no suppot for "WHERE" in the 
SQL language, sure you can do without it, you can do your select, and then in 
the program test your result. Same for krita, you can do without a tablet, and 
use your mouse.

Now this conversation is pointless, there is a large concensus on the subject 
among Krita developers, we don't see the problem of saying to the user that he 
needs distro X 2010 or to use Krita 2.1. I do even think that is better than 
to say to use "Qt 4.6" (or to mess with your hal fdi files). So unless it 
affects Kexi or an other application, I suggest we put this conversation to an 
end.

--

-- 
Cyrille Berger
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Pierre Stirnweiss | 2 Dec 2009 09:35

Re: 2.2 Release plan

Well, i seem to remember that it was stated that Kspread was broken with Qt 4.6. and since we do not have an active maintainer on Kspread, that could be a problem. KOffice 2.2 would then be either KOffice without Krita or KOffice without KSpread. I don't think it is desirable. Fortunately there is still time to fix our problems with Qt4.6 before KOffice 2.2 is released. In such a case, I don't see why saying "KOffice 2.2 requires Qt4.6" is a problem (we released KOffice2.1 stating it would not function with Qt less than 4.5)

Pierre

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Cyrille Berger <cberger <at> cberger.net> wrote:
On Wednesday 02 December 2009, Jaroslaw S wrote:
> Isn't easier to rephrase: "if you want tablet support use krita 2.2
> with Qt 4.6" ?
> That would mean for a distro X: "if you want tablet support, use
> distro X 2010, not X 2009."
No it is easier to say, with Krita 2.2 your tablet will work out of the box.
If you say to the user "for tablet support use Qt 4.6", answer "what the fuck
is Qt ?"

No tablet in Krita, it is like saying you have no suppot for "WHERE" in the
SQL language, sure you can do without it, you can do your select, and then in
the program test your result. Same for krita, you can do without a tablet, and
use your mouse.

Now this conversation is pointless, there is a large concensus on the subject
among Krita developers, we don't see the problem of saying to the user that he
needs distro X 2010 or to use Krita 2.1. I do even think that is better than
to say to use "Qt 4.6" (or to mess with your hal fdi files). So unless it
affects Kexi or an other application, I suggest we put this conversation to an
end.

--
Cyrille Berger
_______________________________________________
koffice-devel mailing list
koffice-devel <at> kde.org
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/koffice-devel

_______________________________________________
koffice-devel mailing list
koffice-devel <at> kde.org
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/koffice-devel
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Boudewijn Rempt | 2 Dec 2009 09:38

Re: 2.2 Release plan

On Wed, 2 Dec 2009, Pierre Stirnweiss wrote:

> Well, i seem to remember that it was stated that Kspread was broken with Qt
> 4.6. and since we do not have an active maintainer on Kspread, that could be
> a problem. KOffice 2.2 would then be either KOffice without Krita or KOffice
> without KSpread. I don't think it is desirable. Fortunately there is still
> time to fix our problems with Qt4.6 before KOffice 2.2 is released. In such
> a case, I don't see why saying "KOffice 2.2 requires Qt4.6" is a problem (we
> released KOffice2.1 stating it would not function with Qt less than 4.5)
> 

At the sprint we discoverd that kspread was also broken with 4.5.2; we just haven't
found out what caused the breakage (apart from the clear hint that the tabwidget
repaints itself continuously. I still intend to look into it. 

Boudewijn
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Cyrille Berger | 2 Dec 2009 09:52

Re: 2.2 Release plan

On Wednesday 02 December 2009, Pierre Stirnweiss wrote:
> Well, i seem to remember that it was stated that Kspread was broken with Qt
> 4.6. and since we do not have an active maintainer on Kspread, that could
>  be a problem. 
Not working with Qt 4.6 is not an option. It is not even an option for KOffice 
2.1. Starting from January, distributions will start updating KDE to 4.4 and 
Qt to 4.6 for their spring edition, so KOffice 2.1 and 2.2 *have* to work with 
4.6.

--

-- 
Cyrille Berger
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Thomas Zander | 2 Dec 2009 12:26
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Re: 2.2 Release plan

On Wednesday 2. December 2009 09.35.16 Pierre Stirnweiss wrote:
>  i seem to remember that it was stated that Kspread was broken with Qt
> 4.6. and since we do not have an active maintainer on Kspread, that could
> be a problem.

Since Qt4.6.0. was released yesterday I expect koffice devs to start migrating 
to that one soon and fix any issues that come up so 2.2 will just work with 
Qt4.6.x
--

-- 
Thomas Zander
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Cyrille Berger | 3 Dec 2009 14:24

Re: 2.2 Release plan

On Wednesday 02 December 2009, Thomas Zander wrote:
> Since Qt4.6.0. was released yesterday I expect koffice devs to start
>  migrating  to that one soon and fix any issues that come up so 2.2 will
>  just work with Qt4.6.x
Problem is that 4.6.0 does not work well with KDE 4.3.x. So personnaly, I 
don't expect much testing with Qt4.6.x until KDE 4.4.0 is out.

--

-- 
Cyrille Berger
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Thomas Zander | 3 Dec 2009 22:18
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Re: 2.2 Release plan

On Thursday 3. December 2009 14.24.14 Cyrille Berger wrote:
> On Wednesday 02 December 2009, Thomas Zander wrote:
> > Since Qt4.6.0. was released yesterday I expect koffice devs to start
> >  migrating  to that one soon and fix any issues that come up so 2.2 will
> >  just work with Qt4.6.x
> 
> Problem is that 4.6.0 does not work well with KDE 4.3.x. So personnaly, I 
> don't expect much testing with Qt4.6.x until KDE 4.4.0 is out.

If you don't tests, bugs will not be found.
If bugs are not reported, they will not be fixed.
If bugs are not fixed you can't depend on the (buggy) version for KOffice.

So, please *do* upgrade to Qt4.6.0 and fix / report any issues you find. 
Especially if you want Krita users to use the new tablet features.
--

-- 
Thomas Zander
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Jaroslaw S | 2 Dec 2009 10:10
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Re: 2.2 Release plan

2009/12/2 Cyrille Berger <cberger <at> cberger.net>:
> On Wednesday 02 December 2009, Jaroslaw S wrote:
>> Isn't easier to rephrase: "if you want tablet support use krita 2.2
>> with Qt 4.6" ?
>> That would mean for a distro X: "if you want tablet support, use
>> distro X 2010, not X 2009."
> No it is easier to say, with Krita 2.2 your tablet will work out of the box.
> If you say to the user "for tablet support use Qt 4.6", answer "what the fuck
> is Qt ?"
>
> No tablet in Krita, it is like saying you have no suppot for "WHERE" in the
> SQL language, sure you can do without it, you can do your select, and then in
> the program test your result. Same for krita, you can do without a tablet, and
> use your mouse.

Yes this is a cost of longer time support; I if sometimes have to even
copy-paste (or rewrite) new code from Qt or elsewhere, I consider
taking this step during the active development of the core features
instead of shortening the time of support. At cost of beautifulness of
the code, flexibility and efficiency.

> Now this conversation is pointless, there is a large concensus on the subject
> among Krita developers, we don't see the problem of saying to the user that he
> needs distro X 2010 or to use Krita 2.1. I do even think that is better than
> to say to use "Qt 4.6" (or to mess with your hal fdi files). So unless it
> affects Kexi or an other application, I suggest we put this conversation to an
> end.

So let me rephrase this: could we publicly declare minimum Qt/KDElibs
version for certain applications e.g in README.PACKAGERS? And for
KOfficelibs. These numbers are not equal for all apps as I can see.
Not only packagers but people that compile apps can also benefit.

--

-- 
regards / pozdrawiam, Jaroslaw Staniek
 Kexi & KOffice (http://www.kexi-project.org, http://www.koffice.org)
 KDE Libraries for MS Windows (http://windows.kde.org)
 http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek
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Cyrille Berger | 2 Dec 2009 10:22

Re: 2.2 Release plan

On Wednesday 02 December 2009, Jaroslaw S wrote:
> So let me rephrase this: could we publicly declare minimum Qt/KDElibs
> version for certain applications e.g in README.PACKAGERS? And for
> KOfficelibs.
I personnaly tend to update the wiki, maybe we could add a link to the wiki 
from README.PACKAGERS. And the cmake configure status will be updated 
accordingly in due time.

--

-- 
Cyrille Berger
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Jaroslaw S | 2 Dec 2009 10:32
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Re: 2.2 Release plan

2009/12/2 Cyrille Berger <cberger <at> cberger.net>:
> On Wednesday 02 December 2009, Jaroslaw S wrote:
>> So let me rephrase this: could we publicly declare minimum Qt/KDElibs
>> version for certain applications e.g in README.PACKAGERS? And for
>> KOfficelibs.
> I personnaly tend to update the wiki, maybe we could add a link to the wiki
> from README.PACKAGERS. And the cmake configure status will be updated
> accordingly in due time.

these are very good ideas

--

-- 
regards / pozdrawiam, Jaroslaw Staniek
 Kexi & KOffice (http://www.kexi-project.org, http://www.koffice.org)
 KDE Libraries for MS Windows (http://windows.kde.org)
 http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek
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Thomas Zander | 2 Dec 2009 09:02
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Re: 2.2 Release plan

On Tuesday 1. December 2009 22.54.31 Jaroslaw S wrote:
> Is KDE 4.3 supposed to work with Qt 4.6?

Yes.
--

-- 
Thomas Zander
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