gmane.comp.lang.groovy.devel

[groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

Hi all,

since I still have internet connection problems I constantly am aware of 
the fact, that I can not commit my code, I can not even really work on 
other bugs, because I can not do a checkout... and doing a commit? 
Forget it. This sucks big times.

I noticed, that with bazaar and other distributed revision tools I won't 
have this problem at all. Because even if I would not be able to do the 
commit I would still be able to work on a different branch for each bug 
I fix and then merge them all together as soon as the internet works again.

So I searched a bit in the net (using public internet) and I found that 
there exists bazaar-gtk 
(http://linux.softpedia.com/get/Programming/Version-Control/Bazaar-GTK-20586.shtml) 
and tortoise-bzr (http://bazaar-vcs.org/TortoiseBzr), two tools with UIs 
  that can be used on windows or linux to handle updates, commits and 
whatever, both contain bindings with the file manager (nautilus for 
bazaar-gtk, windows explorer for tortoise-bzr). Also bazaar is available 
on every platform and it seems as it can use subversion as backend too.

We should really target to migrate to bazaar I think. I looked at git as 
well, but it seems the tool-support isn't as nice as for bazaar. Those 
UIs have the advantage, that you don't need to use the IDE internals for 
this. I always worked like that when I was still on windows and still do 
so most of the time, but now without UI.

So my question is more or less, if someone has
(1) a good reason to not to switch
(2) tested the tools

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Alex Tkachman | 26 Jun 14:38

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

Is it possible to setup bazaar in a way that for me it will be
subversion? I heard somewhere that it is possible.
I have so nice integration in IntelliJ

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 4:33 PM, Jochen Theodorou <blackdrag@...> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> since I still have internet connection problems I constantly am aware of the
> fact, that I can not commit my code, I can not even really work on other
> bugs, because I can not do a checkout... and doing a commit? Forget it. This
> sucks big times.
>
> I noticed, that with bazaar and other distributed revision tools I won't
> have this problem at all. Because even if I would not be able to do the
> commit I would still be able to work on a different branch for each bug I
> fix and then merge them all together as soon as the internet works again.
>
> So I searched a bit in the net (using public internet) and I found that
> there exists bazaar-gtk
> (http://linux.softpedia.com/get/Programming/Version-Control/Bazaar-GTK-20586.shtml)
> and tortoise-bzr (http://bazaar-vcs.org/TortoiseBzr), two tools with UIs
>  that can be used on windows or linux to handle updates, commits and
> whatever, both contain bindings with the file manager (nautilus for
> bazaar-gtk, windows explorer for tortoise-bzr). Also bazaar is available on
> every platform and it seems as it can use subversion as backend too.
>
> We should really target to migrate to bazaar I think. I looked at git as
> well, but it seems the tool-support isn't as nice as for bazaar. Those UIs
> have the advantage, that you don't need to use the IDE internals for this. I
> always worked like that when I was still on windows and still do so most of

(Continue reading)

headers

Jeff Brown | 26 Jun 15:02

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 7:38 AM, Alex Tkachman
<alex.tkachman@...> wrote:
> Is it possible to setup bazaar in a way that for me it will be
> subversion? I heard somewhere that it is possible.
> I have so nice integration in IntelliJ
>

I have not used bazaar but I am using Git for everything now.  Even on
projects where I am stuck with SVN, I use Git to clone the SVN repo
and from my end, it is all Git.  I don't think I have a single .svn/
directory on my machine at this point.  ;)

Using this approach doesn't give me all the benefits of Git but it
does give me some that I really like.  I commit on airplanes all the
time (disconnected commits).  I have the entire repo history local,
which is really nice for a number of reasons.  I can stage commits
locally before pushing them all up the central repo.

I expect bazaar, mercurial and the rest of the ilk do a lot of these
same things.  Git is the only one I have really dug into and I really
really like it.

jb
--

-- 
Jeff Brown
Director North American Operations
G2One Inc.
http://www.g2one.com/

Autism Strikes 1 in 166

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Russel Winder | 26 Jun 18:47

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

On Thu, 2008-06-26 at 08:02 -0500, Jeff Brown wrote:

> I have not used bazaar but I am using Git for everything now.  Even on
> projects where I am stuck with SVN, I use Git to clone the SVN repo
> and from my end, it is all Git.  I don't think I have a single .svn/
> directory on my machine at this point.  ;)

If all you want is a Subversion client that beats Subversion then Git is
certainly a possibility -- but I still prefer Bazaar.  My problem with
Git is that there is no consistency to the command set, the
fragmentation is dreadful.  I would liken using Git for version control
to trying to write Grails in IBM 370 assembly language -- certainly it
is possible but would you really want to do it?

> Using this approach doesn't give me all the benefits of Git but it
> does give me some that I really like.  I commit on airplanes all the
> time (disconnected commits).  I have the entire repo history local,
> which is really nice for a number of reasons.  I can stage commits
> locally before pushing them all up the central repo.

This is what is wrong with Subversion, its centralized.  This is what is
right about Bazaar, Git and Mercurial, they are distributed.  Bazaar and
Git can interwork with a Subversion repository, as far as I am aware
Mercurial cannot, at least not yet.

> I expect bazaar, mercurial and the rest of the ilk do a lot of these
> same things.  Git is the only one I have really dug into and I really
> really like it.

I am completely ambivalent about Git.  It is bitty, complex, you can

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Jeff Brown | 7 Jul 16:56

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Russel Winder
<russel.winder@...> wrote:

>
> I vote for Bazaar.  I think I have convinced Ben to support Bazaar as
> well as Git and Mercurial as Codehaus realizes that Subversion is not
> the tool needed for best support of the project.  This would mean we
> don't have to move to using Launchpad.

I had a meeting this morning with Matthew Porter from Contegix and
while I had his ear I mentioned that some of these discussions were
going on.  Matthew tells me that he is going to follow up with Ben to
discuss details.  Some of the issues that need to be sorted out
include things like how do any/all of these tools fit in with xircles,
fisheye etc. that are all part of the current codehaus infrastructure.

jb
--

-- 
Jeff Brown
Director North American Operations
G2One Inc.
http://www.g2one.com/

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Find The Cause ~ Find The Cure
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Russel Winder | 7 Jul 17:46

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

Jeff,

On Mon, 2008-07-07 at 09:56 -0500, Jeff Brown wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Russel Winder
> <russel.winder@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I vote for Bazaar.  I think I have convinced Ben to support Bazaar as
> > well as Git and Mercurial as Codehaus realizes that Subversion is not
> > the tool needed for best support of the project.  This would mean we
> > don't have to move to using Launchpad.
> 
> 
> I had a meeting this morning with Matthew Porter from Contegix and
> while I had his ear I mentioned that some of these discussions were
> going on.  Matthew tells me that he is going to follow up with Ben to
> discuss details.  Some of the issues that need to be sorted out
> include things like how do any/all of these tools fit in with xircles,
> fisheye etc. that are all part of the current codehaus infrastructure.

I had thought that Ben had had a look at the Xircles issues and has
Mercurial and Git ready to roll and was adding Bazaar to the list
(because I shouted long enough and loud enough .  I am guessing that
Ben is trying the three of these out to lead up to a recommendation as
to which one or ones Codehaus should support.  As is obvious, my
preference is for Bazaar because I think the branch model and CLI is the
best.  I feel distinctly uncomfortable with Git, it is too bitty and
somewhat inconsistent.  Mercurial has quite a strange view of branch
which would take some getting used to.

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Jeff Brown | 7 Jul 18:10

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Russel Winder
<russel.winder@...> wrote:
> Jeff,
>
> On Mon, 2008-07-07 at 09:56 -0500, Jeff Brown wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Russel Winder
>> <russel.winder@...> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > I vote for Bazaar.  I think I have convinced Ben to support Bazaar as
>> > well as Git and Mercurial as Codehaus realizes that Subversion is not
>> > the tool needed for best support of the project.  This would mean we
>> > don't have to move to using Launchpad.
>>
>>
>> I had a meeting this morning with Matthew Porter from Contegix and
>> while I had his ear I mentioned that some of these discussions were
>> going on.  Matthew tells me that he is going to follow up with Ben to
>> discuss details.  Some of the issues that need to be sorted out
>> include things like how do any/all of these tools fit in with xircles,
>> fisheye etc. that are all part of the current codehaus infrastructure.
>
> I had thought that Ben had had a look at the Xircles issues and has
> Mercurial and Git ready to roll and was adding Bazaar to the list
> (because I shouted long enough and loud enough .  I am guessing that
> Ben is trying the three of these out to lead up to a recommendation as
> to which one or ones Codehaus should support.

It may very well be that Ben has already sorted all of this out.
Matthew just told me he wanted to discuss it with Ben.

(Continue reading)

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Ben Walding | 10 Jul 13:57

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 1:46 AM, Russel Winder <russel.winder-DsImGR7CbQu8rjiVs5Nzzw@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> >
> > I vote for Bazaar. I think I have convinced Ben to support Bazaar as
> > well as Git and Mercurial as Codehaus realizes that Subversion is not
> > the tool needed for best support of the project. This would mean we
> > don't have to move to using Launchpad.

We are in communication with Contegix about this (to see if they have a preference).

We are most certainly not ready to rock and roll; the last batch of changes I made was to allow us to support a DVCS - not to actually support it.

That being said, because they're not supported by FishEye / JIRA (I think there is a Mercurial plugin now though); the integration is pretty limited. We'd be running a CGI app over the top of the repositories (e.g. the ViewSVN equivalent).

FWIW: Subversion 1.5 is slated for the end of the month.

Russel has most certainly been in my ear about it! The contenders are bazaar / Mercurial / git. And with Russel' persistent badgering, bazaar is getting more probable.

(replies should be CCed to me as I don't subscribe to this list - my perogative as a Codehaus Despot :) )

Cheers,

Ben

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Russel Winder | 10 Jul 18:22

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

Ben,

On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 21:57 +1000, Ben Walding wrote:

> We are in communication with Contegix about this (to see if they have
> a preference).
>
> We are most certainly not ready to rock and roll; the last batch of
> changes I made was to allow us to support a DVCS - not to actually
> support it.

Apologies if I gave anyone the idea you were.  I thought I had said that
you had tinkered with Xircles to ensure using a DVCS was viable, and
were tinkering with Bazaar, Mercurial and Git to see which ones Codehaus
might support.

> That being said, because they're not supported by FishEye / JIRA (I
> think there is a Mercurial plugin now though); the integration is
> pretty limited.  We'd be running a CGI app over the top of the
> repositories (e.g. the ViewSVN equivalent).

I think the thing to do here Bazaar-wise would be to put the
FishEye/JIRA people in touch with the Bazaar people and see what they
can hammer out.  This probably needs taking offlist.  

> FWIW:  Subversion 1.5 is slated for the end of the month.

Will it actually bring any benefits?   Surely there are bug fixes etc.,
and those are generally worth having, but will the user experience be
any different.  Merge tracking is "foundational" which probably means
not really there and/or very buggy.

> Russel has most certainly been in my ear about it! The contenders are
> bazaar / Mercurial / git.  And with Russel' persistent badgering,
> bazaar is getting more probable.

I have been loud and I am proud of it!  I like Bazaar, it does what I
want, and in ways that make Git look over complicated and
underengineered -- though Git is still faster than Bazaar.

> (replies should be CCed to me as I don't subscribe to this list - my
> perogative as a Codehaus Despot :) )

--

-- 
Russel.
====================================================
Dr Russel Winder                 Partner

Concertant LLP                   t: +44 20 7585 2200, +44 20 7193 9203
41 Buckmaster Road,              f: +44 8700 516 084
London SW11 1EN, UK.             m: +44 7770 465 077

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Mark Derricutt | 1 Jul 07:16

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

If one went mercurial theres a nice-ish mercurial plugin for IntelliJ (thou I've not seen any new releases lately). It's in the plugin manager.

Mark

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 12:38 AM, Alex Tkachman <alex.tkachman-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

Is it possible to setup bazaar in a way that for me it will be
subversion? I heard somewhere that it is possible.
I have so nice integration in IntelliJ

--
"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code." -- Bill Harlan

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Guillaume Laforge | 26 Jun 14:43

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Jochen Theodorou <blackdrag@...> wrote:
> [...]
> So my question is more or less, if someone has
> (1) a good reason to not to switch

No good IDE support yet -- especially IntelliJ IDEA.

> (2) tested the tools

I haven't, but others have (ie. Russel, Jeff, and more)

> (3) can explain why another tool is better

I don't know.

--

-- 
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
G2One, Inc. Vice-President Technology
http://www.g2one.com

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Paul King | 26 Jun 14:56

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

I am spiking out using bazaar as a front end to subversion
at the moment with a client. They may drop it and just go
with subversion 1.5 in the end but I will have some more
to report shortly. It will cover bzr4idea as well. My
experiences so far are that it is (at least when windows
is in the equation) much less mature than subversion
but in most other ways nicer. Can't really comment on
speed just yet.

The other thing is that codehaus may have mercurial
up and running first, so that would be something else
to throw into the equation.

Paul.

Guillaume Laforge wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Jochen Theodorou <blackdrag@...> wrote:
>> [...]
>> So my question is more or less, if someone has
>> (1) a good reason to not to switch
> 
> No good IDE support yet -- especially IntelliJ IDEA.
> 
>> (2) tested the tools
> 
> I haven't, but others have (ie. Russel, Jeff, and more)
> 
>> (3) can explain why another tool is better
> 
> I don't know.
> 

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Jason Dillon | 26 Jun 20:21

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

The next version of IDEA is supposed to support GIT and Bazaar...

--jason

On Jun 26, 2008, at 7:43 PM, Guillaume Laforge wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Jochen Theodorou  
> <blackdrag@...> wrote:
>> [...]
>> So my question is more or less, if someone has
>> (1) a good reason to not to switch
>
> No good IDE support yet -- especially IntelliJ IDEA.
>
>> (2) tested the tools
>
> I haven't, but others have (ie. Russel, Jeff, and more)
>
>> (3) can explain why another tool is better
>
> I don't know.
>
> -- 
> Guillaume Laforge
> Groovy Project Manager
> G2One, Inc. Vice-President Technology
> http://www.g2one.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>

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Guillaume Laforge | 26 Jun 20:42

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

Having features such as the visual diffs you get in IDEA is really
handy and hard to abandon.
Or things like the view on the repository, with incoming changes, and
the way you can "shelve" local changes, etc.
I'm usually not the kind of guy who's tied to tools, especially visual
ones, but for SCM stuff, that's every useful.

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 8:21 PM, Jason Dillon <jason@...> wrote:
> The next version of IDEA is supposed to support GIT and Bazaar...
>
> --jason
>
>
> On Jun 26, 2008, at 7:43 PM, Guillaume Laforge wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Jochen Theodorou <blackdrag@...>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>> So my question is more or less, if someone has
>>> (1) a good reason to not to switch
>>
>> No good IDE support yet -- especially IntelliJ IDEA.
>>
>>> (2) tested the tools
>>
>> I haven't, but others have (ie. Russel, Jeff, and more)
>>
>>> (3) can explain why another tool is better
>>
>> I don't know.
>>
>> --
>> Guillaume Laforge
>> Groovy Project Manager
>> G2One, Inc. Vice-President Technology
>> http://www.g2one.com
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>>
>>   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>
>

--

-- 
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Groovy Project Manager
G2One, Inc. Vice-President Technology
http://www.g2one.com

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Russel Winder | 27 Jun 09:10

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

On Thu, 2008-06-26 at 20:42 +0200, Guillaume Laforge wrote:
> Having features such as the visual diffs you get in IDEA is really
> handy and hard to abandon.

These are available, just in a different way.   If JetBrains have any
sense whatsoever (and history indicates that they have had in the past),
they will prioritize Bazaar, Mercurial and Git support.  If the
JetBrains people want to contact the Canonical people to get Bazaar
support progressing then they should.  (NB  Bazaar is officially a GNU
project, and MySQL is the latest high profile project that switched to
it.)

NetBeans already has Mercurial support as standard -- it is better than
its Subversion and CVS support from what I hear -- and Bazaar support is
coming on nicely I am told.  I don't know about Git support.  Eclipse
has Bazaar, Mercurial and Git support -- and remember not even
Subversion support is standard in Eclipse, only CVS support!

> Or things like the view on the repository, with incoming changes, and
> the way you can "shelve" local changes, etc.

The CVCS -> DVCS switch is the biggest change, apart from parenthood,
that will happen in your life.  Instead of being tied to a central
repository, everyone has their own repository.  Thus everyone has their
own view of their own repository, their are no "incoming changes" per
se.  What you do have is the notion of changesets that can be passed
around from repository to repository.

Bazaar has the "missing" command that gives you a summary of the
changeset differences between two branches.  Git and Mercurial have
equivalents.  

Bazaar has shelf, Git has stash, Mercurial almost certainly has
something equivalent.  Along with the often misunderstood and maligned
rebase, this gives you everything you need to do more or less any form
of history hacking you need.

> I'm usually not the kind of guy who's tied to tools, especially visual
> ones, but for SCM stuff, that's every useful.

Which is why Bazaar, Mercurial and Git provide the facilities.

I don't know the status on Windows of Mercurial, especially the visual
tools.  GIt is known to be a bit problematic on Windows unless you have
Cygwin, but this is being addressed.  Git's visual tools are all written
using Tk so they are fairly portable.  Bazaar has Olive-GTK which needs
GTK but otherwise works on all platforms just as RapidSVN does.  The
Tortoise family of Explorer integrations covers Bazaar (TortoiseBzr) and
Mercurial (TortoiseHg), I am not sure about Git.

I agree that generally the extra support tools are not as mature as the
Subversion ones, but they are there and they are usable.   (I am told
TortoiseBzr will be very usable when the next release happens, which is
soon -- to be honest I don't care, I don't use Windows.)

--

-- 
Russel.
====================================================
Dr Russel Winder                 Partner

Concertant LLP                   t: +44 20 7585 2200, +44 20 7193 9203
41 Buckmaster Road,              f: +44 8700 516 084
London SW11 1EN, UK.             m: +44 7770 465 077

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Chanwit Kaewkasi | 26 Jun 15:02

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

Hi,

I switched to bazaar, then I've recently switcted again to git.
I'm currently using git (cygwin on Windows). It's working very well in
the terms of speed and interoperability with SVN.

Git is a bit more complex than Bazaar, but it's really fast and
amazing VCS software.
Russel mentioned somethings not good about bazaar-SVN interop in this
list as well.
I've faced that problem, so I decided to try Git.

Chanwit

> So my question is more or less, if someone has
> (1) a good reason to not to switch
> (2) tested the tools
> (3) can explain why another tool is better
>
> Russel? You like bazaar most too, yes? What do others think?
>
> bye blackdrag
>
> --
> Jochen "blackdrag" Theodorou
> The Groovy Project Tech Lead (http://groovy.codehaus.org)
> http://blackdragsview.blogspot.com/
> http://www.g2one.com/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>
>

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Martin C. Martin | 26 Jun 15:36

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

This is a good read:

http://blog.red-bean.com/sussman/?p=96

Short version: programmers are often insecure about their code, and 
often want to develop a big feature on their own, before committing it. 
  But that means it doesn't get reviewed while in progress, which often 
means their multiple months of work aren't accepted, or the project 
accepts something confusing, buggy and hard to maintain.  Either way, 
the project loses.

So you want to encourage people to check in code to a branch fairly 
often.  Mercurial is better at this than Git, Git makes code-hiding the 
standard way of operating.  e.g. "get rebase" destroys an entire line of 
history.  I don't know about bazzar.

I haven't seen the "code-bomb" (large check in of low quality code) in 
Groovy much at all, so maybe this is a non-issue for us.  But then 
again, I haven't really been looking.

Best,
Martin

Chanwit Kaewkasi wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I switched to bazaar, then I've recently switcted again to git.
> I'm currently using git (cygwin on Windows). It's working very well in
> the terms of speed and interoperability with SVN.
> 
> Git is a bit more complex than Bazaar, but it's really fast and
> amazing VCS software.
> Russel mentioned somethings not good about bazaar-SVN interop in this
> list as well.
> I've faced that problem, so I decided to try Git.
> 
> Chanwit
> 
>> So my question is more or less, if someone has
>> (1) a good reason to not to switch
>> (2) tested the tools
>> (3) can explain why another tool is better
>>
>> Russel? You like bazaar most too, yes? What do others think?
>>
>> bye blackdrag
>>
>> --
>> Jochen "blackdrag" Theodorou
>> The Groovy Project Tech Lead (http://groovy.codehaus.org)
>> http://blackdragsview.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.g2one.com/
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>>
>>   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>>
>>
>>
> 
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Jeff Brown | 26 Jun 15:51

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 8:36 AM, Martin C. Martin
<martin@...> wrote:
>
>
> So you want to encourage people to check in code to a branch fairly often.
>  Mercurial is better at this than Git, Git makes code-hiding the standard
> way of operating.  e.g. "get rebase" destroys an entire line of history.  I
> don't know about bazzar.
>

I think the phrase "destroys an entire line of history" may be
misleading to folks not familiar with how this works.  You really
aren't destroying a bunch of changes, you are just moving them to
another point in the tree, right?  In practice, this seems to work
very well.

It may very well be that Mercurial is better at this, I have no idea.
I am not sure I really understand why the guy says that Git's rebase
promotes code hiding.  The developer still gets to decide when/if he
shares the changes he has made.

jb
--

-- 
Jeff Brown
Director North American Operations
G2One Inc.
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Russel Winder | 26 Jun 19:02

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

On Thu, 2008-06-26 at 09:36 -0400, Martin C. Martin wrote:
[ . . . ]
> So you want to encourage people to check in code to a branch fairly 
> often.  Mercurial is better at this than Git, Git makes code-hiding the 
> standard way of operating.  e.g. "get rebase" destroys an entire line of 
> history.  I don't know about bazzar.

What is it about Git that make you think this?

Rebase is an issue all on its own.  When using Git/Bazaar as an
intelligent interface to a Subversion store then rebase is absolutely
essential.  When working just in Bazaar or Git then rebase is probably
anathema except in one or two very special corner cases.

Mercurial has a very weird view of what constitutes a branch compared to
Git or Bazaar.  If it fits the workflow then fine, it is great, but...
I have to admit I am more in the Bazaar (and to extent Git) view of
branch. 

> I haven't seen the "code-bomb" (large check in of low quality code) in 
> Groovy much at all, so maybe this is a non-issue for us.  But then 
> again, I haven't really been looking.

I think there has sometimes been a tendency to commit unreviewed
material that has come as a surprise to people, but I don't recollect
low quality code being committed.
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Jeff Brown | 29 Jun 05:53

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 8:36 AM, Martin C. Martin
<martin@...> wrote:

> So you want to encourage people to check in code to a branch fairly often.
>  Mercurial is better at this than Git, Git makes code-hiding the standard
> way of operating.  e.g. "get rebase" destroys an entire line of history.  I
> don't know about bazzar.
>

On the topic of code-hiding, it is interesting to note that in the
video at http://tinyurl.com/ywfk9p, at around 34:36 Bryan O'Sullivan
talks about his technique for hiding his own exploratory adventures in
Mercurial.  Among other things he says "I don't necessarily want my
idiocy caught in the permanent record if I can necessarily avoid it".
;)

jb
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Russel Winder | 26 Jun 18:54

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

On Thu, 2008-06-26 at 20:02 +0700, Chanwit Kaewkasi wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I switched to bazaar, then I've recently switcted again to git.
> I'm currently using git (cygwin on Windows). It's working very well in
> the terms of speed and interoperability with SVN.
> 
> Git is a bit more complex than Bazaar, but it's really fast and
> amazing VCS software.

s/a bit/vastly/p

Git is faster than Bazaar (and Mercurial) in most cases.

> Russel mentioned somethings not good about bazaar-SVN interop in this
> list as well.
> I've faced that problem, so I decided to try Git.

Because I asked (often and regularly   Jelmer Vernooij, the person
responsible for bzr-svn is adding a dpush command to Bazaar.  This will
give exactly the same lightweight Subversion interaction capability that
Git has.  Actually this will make Bazaar vastly more functional than Git
at working with Subversion repositories.  He plans to land it in 0.4.12
so it should be with us shortly.

I know I keep going on about it but I want to make sure there is no
misinformation:  if all you want to do is have a Subversion client that
allows experimental branching and offline commits, then Git is good and
Bazaar is good.  I prefer Bazaars command set and GUI tools, but Git can
do the job.

If we are looking at a long term plan to shift from Subversion to a
DVCS, and I think we should at the earliest possible opportunity, then
it has to be one of Bazaar, Git or Mercurial with the biggest factor
being whatever Codehaus supports.  I would vote for Bazaar, I could live
with Mercurial, I am not sure I would like it if we went with Git.

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Russel Winder | 30 Jun 12:29

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

On Thu, 2008-06-26 at 20:02 +0700, Chanwit Kaewkasi wrote:

> Russel mentioned somethings not good about bazaar-SVN interop in this
> list as well.
> I've faced that problem, so I decided to try Git.

An update on this.  Although not yet in production form, Jelmer has
added the dpush command to Bazaar, so that Bazaar can now be used in the
same way that Git interacts with Subversion -- 'bzr dpush' behaves in a
directly analogous manner to 'git svn dcommit'.  This means that not
only can Bazaar store a Bazaar branch in a Subversion repository, it can
act as a DVCS client for a Subversion repository master branch.  Git
only supports the latter, and Mercurial doesn't support interworking at
all (to my knowledge).

I still think moving the master branches out of Subversion and into
Bazaar is a better thing to do (and as soon as Ben has Bazaar support at
Codehaus this is what will happen for Gant), but whilst master branches
remain in Subversion, Bazaar is now the most functional client 

Yes, Git is still a little faster (well quite a lot is some cases), but
Bazaar is so much easier to use.
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Robert Fischer | 30 Jun 16:29

[groovy-dev] Auto-Comprehensions?

Is this intended behavior?

[1, 2, 3].foo
groovy.lang.MissingPropertyException: Exception evaluating property 'foo' for java.util.ArrayList,
Reason: groovy.lang.MissingPropertyException: No such property: foo for class: java.lang.Integer

If so, why do we have a *. operator in addition to the default list comprehensions?

~~ Robert.

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Jochen Theodorou | 30 Jun 21:13

Re: [groovy-dev] Auto-Comprehensions?

Robert Fischer schrieb:
> Is this intended behavior?
> 
> [1, 2, 3].foo
> groovy.lang.MissingPropertyException: Exception evaluating property 'foo' for java.util.ArrayList,
> Reason: groovy.lang.MissingPropertyException: No such property: foo for class: java.lang.Integer
> 
> If so, why do we have a *. operator in addition to the default list comprehensions?

because [1,2,3].foo() would call the method foo on ArrayList, and 
[1,2,3]*.foo() would call the method foo() on each element. Also given 
that there is a size property on list, then [[],[1],[2,3]].size would 
give the number 3, while [[],[1],[2,3]]*.size would give the list 
[0,1,2]. Such a property could for example be added through a category.

bye blackdrag

--

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Jochen Theodorou | 30 Jun 21:19

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

Russel Winder schrieb:
> On Thu, 2008-06-26 at 20:02 +0700, Chanwit Kaewkasi wrote:
> 
>> Russel mentioned somethings not good about bazaar-SVN interop in this
>> list as well.
>> I've faced that problem, so I decided to try Git.
> 
> An update on this.  Although not yet in production form, Jelmer has
> added the dpush command to Bazaar, so that Bazaar can now be used in the
> same way that Git interacts with Subversion -- 'bzr dpush' behaves in a
> directly analogous manner to 'git svn dcommit'.  This means that not
> only can Bazaar store a Bazaar branch in a Subversion repository, it can
> act as a DVCS client for a Subversion repository master branch.  Git
> only supports the latter, and Mercurial doesn't support interworking at
> all (to my knowledge).
> 
> I still think moving the master branches out of Subversion and into
> Bazaar is a better thing to do (and as soon as Ben has Bazaar support at
> Codehaus this is what will happen for Gant), but whilst master branches
> remain in Subversion, Bazaar is now the most functional client 

Can I take this as that I can simply use bazaar locally, without 
changing svn and then commit to svn, whenever I like to do so and 
without somebody seeing I actually did it using bazaar? I mean if it is 
like this, then we could for now switch to wahtever can work with the 
subversion backend unmodified and let the individual developer decide 
what to take. We could then still switch to another repository system later

> Yes, Git is still a little faster (well quite a lot is some cases), but
> Bazaar is so much easier to use.

Well, Git might be faster.. but how much? If there is not a bazaar 
operation that takes 10 minutes with it but only 1 with git, then there 
is probably not much to talk about. Or are there operations with 
different complexitiy?

bye blackdrag

--

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http://blackdragsview.blogspot.com/
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Alexander Veit | 30 Jun 22:02

RE: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

> From: Jochen Theodorou wrote:
> Well, Git might be faster.. but how much? If there is not a 
> bazaar operation that takes 10 minutes with it but only 1 
> with git, then there is probably not much to talk about. Or 
> are there operations with different complexitiy?

Git ist faster (http://www.infoq.com/articles/dvcs-guide) but it's client
support (especially Windows clients) seems to be less mature than Bazaar's
or Mercurial's.

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Jochen Theodorou | 1 Jul 01:55

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

Alexander Veit schrieb:
>> From: Jochen Theodorou wrote:
>> Well, Git might be faster.. but how much? If there is not a 
>> bazaar operation that takes 10 minutes with it but only 1 
>> with git, then there is probably not much to talk about. Or 
>> are there operations with different complexitiy?
> 
> Git ist faster (http://www.infoq.com/articles/dvcs-guide) but it's client
> support (especially Windows clients) seems to be less mature than Bazaar's
> or Mercurial's.

yes, looks like it...

bye blackdrag

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Chanwit Kaewkasi | 1 Jul 03:19

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

My experiences of Git on Windows via Cygwin have been good so far.

Cheers,

Chanwit

2008/7/1 Alexander Veit <alexander.veit@...>:
>> From: Jochen Theodorou wrote:
>> Well, Git might be faster.. but how much? If there is not a
>> bazaar operation that takes 10 minutes with it but only 1
>> with git, then there is probably not much to talk about. Or
>> are there operations with different complexitiy?
>
> Git ist faster (http://www.infoq.com/articles/dvcs-guide) but it's client
> support (especially Windows clients) seems to be less mature than Bazaar's
> or Mercurial's.
>
>
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Russel Winder | 1 Jul 08:08

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

On Mon, 2008-06-30 at 21:19 +0200, Jochen Theodorou wrote:

> Can I take this as that I can simply use bazaar locally, without 
> changing svn and then commit to svn, whenever I like to do so and 
> without somebody seeing I actually did it using bazaar? I mean if it is 
> like this, then we could for now switch to wahtever can work with the 
> subversion backend unmodified and let the individual developer decide 
> what to take. We could then still switch to another repository system later

You can do this with either Bazaar or Git.  From what Jim says you can
do this with Mercurial as well -- I will check this out later in the
week.

Because I prefer Bazaar over Git, I have created Bazaar branches for
Groovy and Gant and am maintaining them on Launchpad.  This is actually
more of a Groovy and Gant marketing exercise than anything else.  But
what it does mean is that people have a branch they can go to to start
using Bazaar as their Subversion client without the hassle of having to
wait a long time for the generation of their own branch direct out of
Subversion.

Perhaps there is also an argument for hosting the Git repository
somewhere as well.

The dpush command for Bazaar is only available in the bzr-svn 0.4.11
beta using bzr 1.6 beta, but both should be released very soon now.
Using push to a Subversion repository means the metadata for the Bazaar
branch is added to the Subversion repository, dpush does not do this.
If the Codehaus Subversion commit hook didn't list all property changes
then there wouldn't be an issue but Ben doesn't have the time to
investigate switching from using svnlook to using the Python mail hook.
I use the Python mail hook for my Subversion repositories and so I don't
see the problem that I mention previously and caused Chanwit to switch
to Git as his Subversion client.  The dpush command makes all the
Codehaus commit hook hassle go away in the same way the using git svn
dcommit does.

> > Yes, Git is still a little faster (well quite a lot is some cases), but
> > Bazaar is so much easier to use.
> 
> Well, Git might be faster.. but how much? If there is not a bazaar 
> operation that takes 10 minutes with it but only 1 with git, then there 
> is probably not much to talk about. Or are there operations with 
> different complexitiy?

It depends on the command.  For basic commit, diff, etc. Git is faster
than Bazaar but you wouldn't worry about it as they are both fast
enough.  For some log operation Git is very much faster than Bazaar and
so you would care.  For some push and pull operations, Git can be a lot
faster than Bazaar, but in the main they are both fast enough not to
care about the difference.  I suspect Mercurial sits between Git and
Bazaar in all cases.

For me the issues are that the speed issues are not generally an issue,
i.e. the extra speed of Git does not offset my preference for the branch
model of Bazaar compared to Git, and the command line command set.  And
I much prefer olive-gtk (the GTK bazaar GUI) to the Git equivalents.
Except there is one thing about gitk that is really cool, and I have a
feature request in to have that added to the equivalent Bazaar tool.

--

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Jim White | 30 Jun 21:23

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

Russel Winder wrote:

> On Thu, 2008-06-26 at 20:02 +0700, Chanwit Kaewkasi wrote:
> 
> 
>>Russel mentioned somethings not good about bazaar-SVN interop in this
>>list as well.
>>I've faced that problem, so I decided to try Git.
> 
> 
> An update on this.  Although not yet in production form, Jelmer has
> added the dpush command to Bazaar, so that Bazaar can now be used in the
> same way that Git interacts with Subversion -- 'bzr dpush' behaves in a
> directly analogous manner to 'git svn dcommit'.  This means that not
> only can Bazaar store a Bazaar branch in a Subversion repository, it can
> act as a DVCS client for a Subversion repository master branch.  Git
> only supports the latter, and Mercurial doesn't support interworking at
> all (to my knowledge).
> ...

 From my post in this thread last week:

One of the interesting syncing tools is hgsvn which lets you use Hg on 
SVN checkouts.  That solves your disconnected operation case and allows 
a thorough evaluation of Hg before making the switch for the central 
repository.

That of course is one the essential virtues of distributed version 
control.  And naturally even more useful in the future will be 
cross-DVCS synchronization so that this issure will become moot.

http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/hgsvn

Jim

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Jochen Theodorou | 30 Jun 21:46

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

Jim White schrieb:
[...]
>  From my post in this thread last week:
> 
> One of the interesting syncing tools is hgsvn which lets you use Hg on 
> SVN checkouts.  That solves your disconnected operation case and allows 
> a thorough evaluation of Hg before making the switch for the central 
> repository.
> 
> That of course is one the essential virtues of distributed version 
> control.  And naturally even more useful in the future will be 
> cross-DVCS synchronization so that this issure will become moot.
> 
> http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/hgsvn

it is possible with all thre of them I think... but I personally think, 
that because Bazaar has an API and git is "only" a commandline tool, 
that bazaar is better than git.. don't know about Mecurial.

bye blackdrag

--

-- 
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Jim White | 30 Jun 21:52

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

Jochen Theodorou wrote:

> Jim White schrieb:
> [...]
> 
>>  From my post in this thread last week:
>>
>> One of the interesting syncing tools is hgsvn which lets you use Hg on 
>> SVN checkouts.  That solves your disconnected operation case and 
>> allows a thorough evaluation of Hg before making the switch for the 
>> central repository.
>>
>> That of course is one the essential virtues of distributed version 
>> control.  And naturally even more useful in the future will be 
>> cross-DVCS synchronization so that this issure will become moot.
>>
>> http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/hgsvn
> 
> it is possible with all thre of them I think... but I personally think, 
> that because Bazaar has an API and git is "only" a commandline tool, 
> that bazaar is better than git.. don't know about Mecurial.

I think Mercurial is probably better than Bazaar.

A repost of what I said last week:

Jochen Theodorou wrote:

 > ...
 > (3) can explain why another tool is better

I haven't done a direct comparison myself, but my impression so far is 
that Mercurial is probably a better choice than Bazaar.

If you consider that projects like OpenJDK, IcedTea, NetBeans, and 
OpenSolaris have found it the current best choice for distributed 
version control, then I'm sure you'd agree that at this point 
alternatives would need to explain why they're better.

http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi/ProjectsUsingMercurial

There is SVN-to-Hg conversion available, as well as SVN-and-Hg sync.

http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi/RepositoryConversion

One of the interesting syncing tools is hgsvn which lets you use Hg on 
SVN checkouts.  That solves your disconnected operation case and allows 
a thorough evaluation of Hg before making the switch for the central 
repository.

That of course is one the essential virtues of distributed version 
control.  And naturally even more useful in the future will be 
cross-DVCS synchronization so that this issure will become moot.

http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/hgsvn

Some DVCS comparison articles:

http://www.dribin.org/dave/blog/archives/2007/12/28/dvcs/

http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/tools/scm/

"Why Java picked Mercurial for source control" interview with Gosling:
http://www.builderau.com.au/video/play/22447748

http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrVsHg

http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi/BzrVsHg

http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi/Bazaar

My best current thought it is too early for a project like Groovy to be 
concerned about switching to DVCS.  Developers who want to use DVCS 
should use SVN-and-DVCS-of-personal-choice-synchronization over the next 
year or so.  Then the tools will then be more mature and the value of 
switching (if any) will be clear.

Jim

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Jochen Theodorou | 1 Jul 01:39

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

Jim White schrieb:
> Jochen Theodorou wrote:
> 
>> Jim White schrieb:
>> [...]
>>
>>>  From my post in this thread last week:
>>>
>>> One of the interesting syncing tools is hgsvn which lets you use Hg 
>>> on SVN checkouts.  That solves your disconnected operation case and 
>>> allows a thorough evaluation of Hg before making the switch for the 
>>> central repository.
>>>
>>> That of course is one the essential virtues of distributed version 
>>> control.  And naturally even more useful in the future will be 
>>> cross-DVCS synchronization so that this issure will become moot.
>>>
>>> http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/hgsvn
>>
>> it is possible with all thre of them I think... but I personally 
>> think, that because Bazaar has an API and git is "only" a commandline 
>> tool, that bazaar is better than git.. don't know about Mecurial.
> 
> I think Mercurial is probably better than Bazaar.
> 
> A repost of what I said last week:
> 
> Jochen Theodorou wrote:
> 
>  > ...
>  > (3) can explain why another tool is better
> 
> I haven't done a direct comparison myself, but my impression so far is 
> that Mercurial is probably a better choice than Bazaar.
> 
> If you consider that projects like OpenJDK, IcedTea, NetBeans, and 
> OpenSolaris have found it the current best choice for distributed 
> version control, then I'm sure you'd agree that at this point 
> alternatives would need to explain why they're better.

I don't count that as argument. I would need to know why these projects 
chose Mercurial over Bazaar and if these reasons are still valid. On 
http://www.dribin.org/dave/blog/archives/2007/12/28/dvcs/ you can find:

"""
> Historically, the main complaint about Bazaar has been it’s
> performance. In fact, the main reason why OpenSolaris dismissed
> Bazaar was due to poor performance. But that eval was a year ago,
> which is essentially an eternity. Since then, Bazaar has hit 1.0 and
> those performance criticisms have supposedly been addressed.
"""

so I read performance was the main reason, and that one is not that 
valid anymore. .. 
http://opensolaris.org/os/community/tools/scm/bzr-eval/ suggests the same.

[...]
> "Why Java picked Mercurial for source control" interview with Gosling:
> http://www.builderau.com.au/video/play/22447748

that should be named "Why Java picked a DCVS". Afaik they don't compare 
Mercurial, GIT and Bazaar

  bye blackdrag

--

-- 
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Jim White | 1 Jul 06:56

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

Jochen Theodorou wrote:

> Jim White schrieb:
...
>> Jochen Theodorou wrote:
>>
>>  > ...
>>  > (3) can explain why another tool is better
>>
>> I haven't done a direct comparison myself, but my impression so far is 
>> that Mercurial is probably a better choice than Bazaar.
>>
>> If you consider that projects like OpenJDK, IcedTea, NetBeans, and 
>> OpenSolaris have found it the current best choice for distributed 
>> version control, then I'm sure you'd agree that at this point 
>> alternatives would need to explain why they're better.
> 
> 
> I don't count that as argument. I would need to know why these projects 
> chose Mercurial over Bazaar and if these reasons are still valid. On 
> http://www.dribin.org/dave/blog/archives/2007/12/28/dvcs/ you can find:
> 
> """
>> Historically, the main complaint about Bazaar has been it’s
>> performance. In fact, the main reason why OpenSolaris dismissed
>> Bazaar was due to poor performance. But that eval was a year ago,
>> which is essentially an eternity. Since then, Bazaar has hit 1.0 and
>> those performance criticisms have supposedly been addressed.
> """
> 
> so I read performance was the main reason, and that one is not that 
> valid anymore. .. 
> http://opensolaris.org/os/community/tools/scm/bzr-eval/ suggests the same.

The idea that one software project that was X months behind another 
active, successful project has somehow eliminated a feature and/or 
performance gap is naive.   You would have to suppose that Mercurial 
stood still while Bazaar addresses its most serious deficiency in the 
comparison.

So as I say, given that Bazaar was convincingly inferior to Mercurial a 
year ago, it now must prove it is either equivalent or superior now in 
order to regard it is equal or superior.

And you omitted what I consider my most relevant opinion in this 
discussion, which is that it is far too early for the Groovy project to 
seriously consider switching off of Subversion.

Not only are the DVCS client tools immature, what about the server-side? 
  Besides the inevitable discovery of data reliability issues, there are 
the web UI and issue tracking integration functions that have to be 
dealt with too.

Maybe in a year (but more likely longer), the DVCS tools will be worth 
switching to.  Moreover, folks who really do want to adapt to DVCS from 
Subversion will be integrating the synchronization tools on the 
server-side in order to preserve their Subversion repository (for it's 
dependability and integration with other services) while satisfying the 
clamor for DVCS.

Jim

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Russel Winder | 1 Jul 08:41

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

On Mon, 2008-06-30 at 21:56 -0700, Jim White wrote:

> The idea that one software project that was X months behind another 
> active, successful project has somehow eliminated a feature and/or 
> performance gap is naive.   You would have to suppose that Mercurial 
> stood still while Bazaar addresses its most serious deficiency in the 
> comparison.
> 
> So as I say, given that Bazaar was convincingly inferior to Mercurial a 
> year ago, it now must prove it is either equivalent or superior now in 
> order to regard it is equal or superior.

The main factor here is the change of repository format in Bazaar.  As
the Mercurial people keep saying "Bazaar keeps changing the repository
format because they can't decide what to do".  What has happened of
course is that Bazaar is now using the same format as Git for speed.
The speed change with the Bazaar format change was pretty immense, and
they are still working on it.

So I would say all the performance differentials between Bazaar,
Mercurial and Git have changed.

> And you omitted what I consider my most relevant opinion in this 
> discussion, which is that it is far too early for the Groovy project to 
> seriously consider switching off of Subversion.
> 
> Not only are the DVCS client tools immature, what about the server-side? 
>   Besides the inevitable discovery of data reliability issues, there are 
> the web UI and issue tracking integration functions that have to be 
> dealt with too.

I think you are being over-conservative here.  If Sun, MySQL, Mozilla,
etc. can switch to a DVCS then there is no fundamental barrier stopping
Groovy.  Except one, Codehaus.  Your server-side point is critical here.
No Codehaus support means no change from Subversion for the central
master branch.  This doesn't stop individuals choosing better clients to
work with that central master branch.

> Maybe in a year (but more likely longer), the DVCS tools will be worth 
> switching to.  Moreover, folks who really do want to adapt to DVCS from 
> Subversion will be integrating the synchronization tools on the 
> server-side in order to preserve their Subversion repository (for it's 
> dependability and integration with other services) while satisfying the 
> clamor for DVCS.

I hope your forecast is too conservative.  Clearly a project cannot chop
and change infrastructureregualrly, so there must be no hasty decisions.
But it is good to have a roadmap.  This implies the sort of debate we
have been having.

In the end though for Groovy and Gant, it all depends on what Codehaus
do.  Until they have decided which DVCS to support all decision making
about switching to a DVCS is moot.   If they end up providing Bazaar,
Mercurial and Git, then we have a decision to make.

Subversion is a fine version filestore but compared to a DVCS it is
fundamentally inadequate for software development except where you have
one and only one branch and never need another branch.  This includes
Subversion 1.5.  If Groovy, Gant etc. never need more than one branch
then there is no need to even contemplate a move from Subversion.
However, I think that is not the case.  The "clamour for DVCS" is based
on a real workflow and function factors.
--

-- 
Russel.
====================================================
Dr Russel Winder                 Partner

Concertant LLP                   t: +44 20 7585 2200, +44 20 7193 9203
41 Buckmaster Road,              f: +44 8700 516 084
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Jochen Theodorou | 1 Jul 13:05

Re: [groovy-dev] should we use bazaar?

Jim White schrieb:
> Jochen Theodorou wrote:
[...]
> Maybe in a year (but more likely longer), the DVCS tools will be worth 
> switching to.  Moreover, folks who really do want to adapt to DVCS from 
> Subversion will be integrating the synchronization tools on the 
> server-side in order to preserve their Subversion repository (for it's 
> dependability and integration with other services) while satisfying the 
> clamor for DVCS.

I think it is now the right time to decide on a tool, even if we switch 
to it much later. The reason is that there must be infrastructure on 
codehaus. If we are sure we want DCVS, then we should decide which of th 
systems, so the codehaus people can concentrate on the ones the projects 
do request. Most likely they will do only one of them. So the bestwould 
be to make a top3, which seems to be for me Mercurial, Bazaar, Git at 
the moment, meaning that I prefer Mercurial and Bazaar over Git. As of 
the format on the server side... that is not really our problem, that is 
the problem of the guys on the server, and they are surely will take an 
eye on it. I think for us the most important things are not memory and 
speed, but tool support and support for the workflow we target.

I placed Mercurial at 1, because it seems TortoiseBzr is no longer 
developed, but TortoiseHg still is. There are basic plugins for all 
IDEs, including Intellij, Eclipse and Netbeans. Mercurial and Bazaar 
work on all operating systems, because they are not written in a wild 
mix of C,bash, Perl and TCL/Tk. I dislike git mostly because of its huge 
ammount of command line arguments. In subversion you had what? checkout, 
commit, update, diff... maybe merge and copy. That's it. Do we really 
need more than that?

I am usually having different directories for groovy, where each 
directory represents a certain branch. That menas atm I have a 1.5.x 
directory and a 1.6.x directory. If I take it right, then for git you 
have the whole repository in the top level directory, but the classic 
checkout is made only on a certain branch... meaning I would either have 
to symlink the .git directories or have two of them.... But having two 
of them... The initial checkout takes really a long time. Now, that 
might bea problem for all three systems...I would have to find a way to 
checkout not the whole thing, but only a certain part... in some cases 
this is just what I need.. and I don't wnat to waste several 100MB just 
to get 20of them in the end.

Which leeds me to the workflow itself... How should that be? I know git 
supports almost any workflow, but what kind of workflow do bazaar and 
Mercurial support? I mean if none of them allows the workflow we want to 
have, then there is no reason to use them. But frankly I don't know 
about the workflow yet. I am only sure that having one main maintainer 
that has the only power of hte branch is most likely not going to work 
for us.... also I never understood how I can pull a different version 
from someone, if that someone doesn't host the version...

Even if we switch to a DCVS System, we most likely will still have a 
central repository in the end... or were are the other repositories 
comming from?

bye blackdrag

--

-- 
Jochen "blackdrag" Theodorou
The Groovy Project Tech Lead (http://groovy.codehaus.org)
http://blackdragsview.blogspot.com/
http://www.g2one.com/

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