José Lopes | 18 Sep 05:09 2012
Picon

[ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language

Hello everyone,

I just wanted to share a package I created called Fmark, now available
on HackageDB.

Feedback both on the project and on the code is greatly appreciated :)

Fmark (Friendly Markup) is a very simple markup language without
syntax and simple but sophisticated document styling, capable of
producing PDF and XML files.

The key philosophy behind this markup language is to eliminate the
strange syntactic characters seen in most markup languages, but
at the same time try to maintain a high level of expressiveness, using
only document reconstruction.

Check it out
http://hackage.haskell.org/package/fmark
https://github.com/jabolopes/fmark

Best regards,
José

--

-- 
José António Branquinho de Oliveira Lopes
58612 - MEIC-A
Instituto Superior Técnico (IST), Universidade Técnica de Lisboa (UTL)
jose.lopes <at> ist.utl.pt
Kristopher Micinski | 18 Sep 05:25 2012
Picon

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language

Jose,

So I'm interested to hear you opinion on this as well...

I use Pandoc with Markdown through Hakyll, which allows you to do a
fair amount of cute things that are just really helpful for
maintaining a blog (for example..).  But I didn't get this from
reading your github readme: what makes your markup language special?
Could you give an example of how the language is more expressive than
(say) markdown processed through Pandoc (I only mention because it
lets you process LaTeX, very helpful, right...) or something
comparable?

kris

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:09 PM, José Lopes <jose.lopes <at> ist.utl.pt> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I just wanted to share a package I created called Fmark, now available
> on HackageDB.
>
> Feedback both on the project and on the code is greatly appreciated :)
>
> Fmark (Friendly Markup) is a very simple markup language without
> syntax and simple but sophisticated document styling, capable of
> producing PDF and XML files.
>
> The key philosophy behind this markup language is to eliminate the
> strange syntactic characters seen in most markup languages, but
> at the same time try to maintain a high level of expressiveness, using
(Continue reading)

José Lopes | 18 Sep 05:57 2012
Picon

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language

Hello Kris,

Thank you for your email.

At this moment, Fmark is not as powerful as Markdown, also because Fmark 
just started.
Markdown offers things such as Blockquotes, Lists, Code blocks, links, 
emphasis, images, etc.
Fmark does not offer as many features: for now, there are only 
paragraphs, headings,
subsections (endless nesting) and footnotes. In the near future, I want 
to bolds/italics,
ordered and unordered lists, links, and later on as many elements as 
possible :)

The problem with Fmark is also its greatest feature. While other markup 
languages
introduce special syntactic characters to give meaning to the document's 
elements,
I would like to take a different approach: I want to use characters that 
people already
use in document writing to achieve the same result. For example, in 
Mediawiki a
heading is some text surrounded by equal signs. But in Fmark a heading 
is simply some
text that does not end in a punctuation character, such as period or an 
exclamation mark.
I argue that this is a more "natural" approach.

I want to find a natural way of not burdening the user with the task of 
(Continue reading)

Ivan Lazar Miljenovic | 18 Sep 07:05 2012
Picon

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language

On 18 September 2012 13:57, José Lopes <jose.lopes <at> ist.utl.pt> wrote:
> Hello Kris,
>
> Thank you for your email.
>
> At this moment, Fmark is not as powerful as Markdown, also because Fmark
> just started.
> Markdown offers things such as Blockquotes, Lists, Code blocks, links,
> emphasis, images, etc.
> Fmark does not offer as many features: for now, there are only paragraphs,
> headings,
> subsections (endless nesting) and footnotes. In the near future, I want to
> bolds/italics,
> ordered and unordered lists, links, and later on as many elements as
> possible :)
>
> The problem with Fmark is also its greatest feature. While other markup
> languages
> introduce special syntactic characters to give meaning to the document's
> elements,
> I would like to take a different approach: I want to use characters that
> people already
> use in document writing to achieve the same result. For example, in
> Mediawiki a
> heading is some text surrounded by equal signs. But in Fmark a heading is
> simply some
> text that does not end in a punctuation character, such as period or an
> exclamation mark.
> I argue that this is a more "natural" approach.

(Continue reading)

José Lopes | 18 Sep 13:53 2012
Picon

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language

Hello Ivan,

I agree with your point: if you want a heading that ends with a punctuation
sign then you cannot do it in Fmark (for now). That gives me something to
think about. However, I will still look for a way that avoids (as much as
possible) special syntax. Do you have any suggestion?

I also agree with you on the "natural" conventions. I want to find a good
tradeoff between syntax and expressiveness. In other words, I want to
avoid as much those "odd choices" you mentioned. For example, I have
been thinking seriously about emphasis and what would be a good way
to do it. So far I could only come up with quotes (either " or '). What do
you think?

Cheers,
José

On 18-09-2012 06:05, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic wrote:
> On 18 September 2012 13:57, José Lopes <jose.lopes <at> ist.utl.pt> wrote:
>> Hello Kris,
>>
>> Thank you for your email.
>>
>> At this moment, Fmark is not as powerful as Markdown, also because Fmark
>> just started.
>> Markdown offers things such as Blockquotes, Lists, Code blocks, links,
>> emphasis, images, etc.
>> Fmark does not offer as many features: for now, there are only paragraphs,
>> headings,
>> subsections (endless nesting) and footnotes. In the near future, I want to
(Continue reading)

Ivan Lazar Miljenovic | 18 Sep 14:18 2012
Picon

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language

On 18 September 2012 21:53, José Lopes <jose.lopes <at> ist.utl.pt> wrote:
> Hello Ivan,
>
> I agree with your point: if you want a heading that ends with a punctuation
> sign then you cannot do it in Fmark (for now). That gives me something to
> think about. However, I will still look for a way that avoids (as much as
> possible) special syntax. Do you have any suggestion?
>
> I also agree with you on the "natural" conventions. I want to find a good
> tradeoff between syntax and expressiveness. In other words, I want to
> avoid as much those "odd choices" you mentioned. For example, I have
> been thinking seriously about emphasis and what would be a good way
> to do it. So far I could only come up with quotes (either " or '). What do
> you think?

I think that _emphasis_ is pretty "natural", as is *bold* and possibly
-strikethrough-.

But you _are_ adding in some aspects of markup now.

Using quotes is bad because what happens if you're actually quoting someone? ;-)

>
> Cheers,
> José
>
>
> On 18-09-2012 06:05, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic wrote:
>>
>> On 18 September 2012 13:57, José Lopes <jose.lopes <at> ist.utl.pt> wrote:
(Continue reading)

José Lopes | 18 Sep 14:22 2012
Picon

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language

Hi,

Like I said it's a tradeoff. I will try to use this philosophy as much as
possible. But it's also important not to be fundamentalist. We'll see
as it goes.

I like that strikethrough. You are right about the quotes, but we can
leave " for quoting and use the ' for something else.

Cheers,
José

On 18-09-2012 13:18, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic wrote:
> On 18 September 2012 21:53, José Lopes <jose.lopes <at> ist.utl.pt> wrote:
>> Hello Ivan,
>>
>> I agree with your point: if you want a heading that ends with a punctuation
>> sign then you cannot do it in Fmark (for now). That gives me something to
>> think about. However, I will still look for a way that avoids (as much as
>> possible) special syntax. Do you have any suggestion?
>>
>> I also agree with you on the "natural" conventions. I want to find a good
>> tradeoff between syntax and expressiveness. In other words, I want to
>> avoid as much those "odd choices" you mentioned. For example, I have
>> been thinking seriously about emphasis and what would be a good way
>> to do it. So far I could only come up with quotes (either " or '). What do
>> you think?
> I think that _emphasis_ is pretty "natural", as is *bold* and possibly
> -strikethrough-.
>
(Continue reading)

Tillmann Rendel | 18 Sep 22:00 2012
Picon

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language

Hi,

José Lopes wrote in an earlier email:
> I want to find a natural way of not burdening the user with the task of having to learn
> some special syntax in order to write a document.

And then:
> [...] we can leave " for quoting and use the ' for something else.

That sounds like 'some special syntax' to me. Or should it be "some 
special syntax"? I can't remember which was for quoting and which was 
for something else. Maybe I need to look that up in the Fmark 
documentation, again.

   Tillmann
José Lopes | 18 Sep 22:06 2012
Picon

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language

Hey Tillmann,

That is a good point. What would you suggest for emphasis ?

Cheers,
José

On 18-09-2012 21:00, Tillmann Rendel wrote:
> Hi,
>
> José Lopes wrote in an earlier email:
>> I want to find a natural way of not burdening the user with the task 
>> of having to learn
>> some special syntax in order to write a document.
>
> And then:
>> [...] we can leave " for quoting and use the ' for something else.
>
> That sounds like 'some special syntax' to me. Or should it be "some 
> special syntax"? I can't remember which was for quoting and which was 
> for something else. Maybe I need to look that up in the Fmark 
> documentation, again.
>
>   Tillmann

--

-- 
José António Branquinho de Oliveira Lopes
Instituto Superior Técnico
Technical University of Lisbon
(Continue reading)

Brandon Allbery | 18 Sep 16:30 2012
Picon

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:05 AM, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic <ivan.miljenovic <at> gmail.com> wrote:
to it (though I agree that Markdown has some odd choices; in
particular, the ability to use both _ and * for italics whilst
requiring ** for bold).

The odd thing is, I've found that I use those constructs "naturally" (i.e. when simply writing text in a text-only medium) in pretty much exactly the way Markdown uses them.  _italics_ and *italics* are semantically different (I tend to use the former for titles and such) but are both usually italics in my normal usage.  (There's also /italics/ but that is not very widespread.)  I do tend to use # instead of = for headings but that's kinda stolen (and mutated) from a different variety of non-natural markup.

I suspect that when the dust has settled, it'll turn out that Markdown is pretty much right.  Maybe with some tweaking, but largely it represents (and IIRC was derived from) actual in-the-wild textual usage.

--
brandon s allbery                                      allbery.b <at> gmail.com
wandering unix systems administrator (available)     (412) 475-9364 vm/sms

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José Lopes | 18 Sep 16:34 2012
Picon

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language

Hey,

Why do you say that _italics_ and *italics* are semantically different?
What do you mean?

Cheers,
José

On 18-09-2012 15:30, Brandon Allbery wrote:
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:05 AM, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic <ivan.miljenovic <at> gmail.com> wrote:
to it (though I agree that Markdown has some odd choices; in
particular, the ability to use both _ and * for italics whilst
requiring ** for bold).

The odd thing is, I've found that I use those constructs "naturally" (i.e. when simply writing text in a text-only medium) in pretty much exactly the way Markdown uses them.  _italics_ and *italics* are semantically different (I tend to use the former for titles and such) but are both usually italics in my normal usage.  (There's also /italics/ but that is not very widespread.)  I do tend to use # instead of = for headings but that's kinda stolen (and mutated) from a different variety of non-natural markup.

I suspect that when the dust has settled, it'll turn out that Markdown is pretty much right.  Maybe with some tweaking, but largely it represents (and IIRC was derived from) actual in-the-wild textual usage.

--
brandon s allbery                                      allbery.b <at> gmail.com
wandering unix systems administrator (available)     (412) 475-9364 vm/sms


-- José António Branquinho de Oliveira Lopes Instituto Superior Técnico Technical University of Lisbon
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Brandon Allbery | 18 Sep 17:29 2012
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 10:34 AM, José Lopes <jose.lopes <at> ist.utl.pt> wrote:
Why do you say that _italics_ and *italics* are semantically different?
What do you mean?

The parenthetical hinted at it:

(I tend to use the former for titles and such)
There's a convention at work here, namely that italicized book titles and similar are often underlined in plain text — and in plain text without backspaces this is represented as leading and trailing _.  So there's a semantic (i.e. content) difference even though the generated markup is the same.

--
brandon s allbery                                      allbery.b <at> gmail.com
wandering unix systems administrator (available)     (412) 475-9364 vm/sms

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Richard O'Keefe | 18 Sep 07:19 2012
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language


On 18/09/2012, at 3:57 PM, José Lopes wrote:
> The problem with Fmark is also its greatest feature. While other markup languages
> introduce special syntactic characters to give meaning to the document's elements,
> I would like to take a different approach: I want to use characters that people already
> use in document writing to achieve the same result. For example, in Mediawiki a
> heading is some text surrounded by equal signs. But in Fmark a heading is simply some
> text that does not end in a punctuation character, such as period or an exclamation mark.
> I argue that this is a more "natural" approach.

The problem with that is that some people DO end some headings with
a full stop; for them your special syntax is not natural.
> 
> I want to find a natural way of not burdening the user with the task of having to learn
> some special syntax in order to write a document.

You haven't found it.  What you *have* is very special syntax expressed using
several methods, AND IT IS NOT DOCUMENTED.  I have read the examples, and I can
find nothing explaining what the syntax is.

For example, I find indenting subsections rather unnatural and error-prone.
(For example, moving a paragraph from a deep location to a shallow one would
create a new subsection unintentionally.)
Is the amount of indentation fixed?  How many levels of subsections are
supported?  What if I want to use indentation to express quotation instead?
How do I embed source code?  How can you get an example of Fmark in an
Fmark document without having it acted on?  I could go on and on with
questions about syntax.
José Lopes | 18 Sep 14:04 2012
Picon

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language

Hello Richard,

When you say "(for) some people (...) you special syntax is not natural"
that's a good thing. I want these people involved in the project. I want
to understand what they find natural in order to weigh the options and
make a proper decision.

On the README file in the github page you will find a brief explanation
of the markup elements. I need to elaborate you that though because
I feel I explain it too fast.
https://github.com/jabolopes/fmark

Let me answer your questions about sections. The amount of indentation
is not fixed. You can use whatever you want. There is also no nesting limit
in Fmark, however, there is a nesting limit in the Latex backend. For now,
quotations, block quotes, source code embedding, etc, are not implemented.
Those will be added in the future.

About embedding a Fmark document in another document. That seems to
be a very cool feature. I will definitely think about it! Maybe you can come
up with a "natural" way of doing it?

Cheers,
José


On 18-09-2012 06:19, Richard O'Keefe wrote:
On 18/09/2012, at 3:57 PM, José Lopes wrote:
The problem with Fmark is also its greatest feature. While other markup languages introduce special syntactic characters to give meaning to the document's elements, I would like to take a different approach: I want to use characters that people already use in document writing to achieve the same result. For example, in Mediawiki a heading is some text surrounded by equal signs. But in Fmark a heading is simply some text that does not end in a punctuation character, such as period or an exclamation mark. I argue that this is a more "natural" approach.
The problem with that is that some people DO end some headings with a full stop; for them your special syntax is not natural.
I want to find a natural way of not burdening the user with the task of having to learn some special syntax in order to write a document.
You haven't found it. What you *have* is very special syntax expressed using several methods, AND IT IS NOT DOCUMENTED. I have read the examples, and I can find nothing explaining what the syntax is. For example, I find indenting subsections rather unnatural and error-prone. (For example, moving a paragraph from a deep location to a shallow one would create a new subsection unintentionally.) Is the amount of indentation fixed? How many levels of subsections are supported? What if I want to use indentation to express quotation instead? How do I embed source code? How can you get an example of Fmark in an Fmark document without having it acted on? I could go on and on with questions about syntax.

-- José António Branquinho de Oliveira Lopes Instituto Superior Técnico Technical University of Lisbon
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Richard O'Keefe | 19 Sep 01:24 2012
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language


On 19/09/2012, at 12:04 AM, José Lopes wrote:

> Hello Richard,
> 
> When you say "(for) some people (...) you special syntax is not natural"
> that's a good thing. I want these people involved in the project. I want
> to understand what they find natural in order to weigh the options and
> make a proper decision.

One important question is how many *scripts* you want to support.
Do you, for example, want to support Greek?  There is a Unicode
character for Greek question mark U+037E, some documentation I've
seen says that the preferred character is U+003F.  So does ";"
terminate a sentence or not?
How many *languages* do you want to support?
Are you going to support Armenian, where the question mark that
ends a sentence goes not _after the last letter_ of the last
word but _over the last vowel_?

(As someone who only writes in English, I have no trouble with the
answer "only the Latin script, only the English language".)

I don't actually believe that there _is_ a natural convention for
italics, boldface, superscripts, etc.  Even _this_ is an artificial
convention going back to mechanical typewriters that could underline
but not change font.
> 
> On the README file in the github page you will find a brief explanation
> of the markup elements. I need to elaborate you that though because
> I feel I explain it too fast.
> https://github.com/jabolopes/fmark

I did read the README.md.  I disagree that there exists any problem
of manual removal of special characters.  If I want to remove XML markup,
I just do unxml foobar.xml >foobar.txt.  If I want to convert from one
kind of markup to another, there is pandoc, which is admittedly a touch
buggy, ...

The problem is that the README.md does not in fact explain what any
of the 'markup elements' are.

Let's take one little example, a letter of the kind I used to write
by hand.

			123 Copper Road,
			   Gemstone,
			      Dunedin,
			         New Zealand 9999.
			31 February 2016.

Dear Schnorer,
   I am writing to you because I am tired of frobulating.

			Yours without wax,
			   Dr Strabismus of Utrecht
			      (whom God preserve!)

How do I tell Fmark about this structure?
How do I get this layout?  (The '1' and 'Y' should be in the centre.)

> Let me answer your questions about sections. The amount of indentation
> is not fixed. You can use whatever you want. There is also no nesting limit
> in Fmark, however, there is a nesting limit in the Latex backend. For now,
> quotations, block quotes, source code embedding, etc, are not implemented.
> Those will be added in the future.

These answers belong in the README.me.
> 
> About embedding a Fmark document in another document. That seems to
> be a very cool feature. I will definitely think about it! Maybe you can come
> up with a "natural" way of doing it?

The last time I thought I had a natural way to do anything like that
I found that the SGML design was worse broken than I would have believed possible.
Stefan Monnier | 18 Sep 15:43 2012
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language

> The problem with that is that some people DO end some headings with
> a full stop; for them your special syntax is not natural.

Markdown/ReST is already using the "no syntax" idea (e.g. compared to
pre-wiki markup such a LaTeX or Texinfo), so he's simply trying to push
this idea further.

I suspect it'll be difficult.

> What if I want to use indentation to express quotation instead?

I think this one is solvable: a paragraph that's more indented than the
previous heading can be considered a quote.

        Stefan
José Lopes | 18 Sep 15:48 2012
Picon

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language

Hello Stefan,

Thank you for the input.

Cheers,
José

On 18-09-2012 14:43, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> The problem with that is that some people DO end some headings with
>> a full stop; for them your special syntax is not natural.
> Markdown/ReST is already using the "no syntax" idea (e.g. compared to
> pre-wiki markup such a LaTeX or Texinfo), so he's simply trying to push
> this idea further.
>
> I suspect it'll be difficult.
>
>> What if I want to use indentation to express quotation instead?
> I think this one is solvable: a paragraph that's more indented than the
> previous heading can be considered a quote.
>
>
>          Stefan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> Haskell-Cafe <at> haskell.org
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

--

-- 
José António Branquinho de Oliveira Lopes
Instituto Superior Técnico
Technical University of Lisbon
Richard O'Keefe | 19 Sep 01:37 2012
Picon

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language


On 19/09/2012, at 1:43 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote:

>> The problem with that is that some people DO end some headings with
>> a full stop; for them your special syntax is not natural.
> 
> Markdown/ReST is already using the "no syntax" idea (e.g. compared to
> pre-wiki markup such a LaTeX or Texinfo), so he's simply trying to push
> this idea further.

Markdown is very heavy on syntax,
what it is *light* on is specification of what the
syntax actually is.  As a result,
I'm aware of three different dialects,
and someone told me about having to reverse
engineer the syntax from a Perl implementation.
As a further result, I cannot write a program to
reliably *generate* Markdown.
> 
> I suspect it'll be difficult.

Oh, more power to him for trying.
I just don't think it can be pushed very far.

Oh, there is a really *filthy* hack that could be pulled
for italics, bold face, and so on.  Contrary to its original
principles, Unicode includes several copies of ASCII
(see http://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1D400.pdf):
Mathematical bold,
Mathematical italic,
Mathematical bold italic,
Mathematical script,
Mathematical bold script,
Mathematical fraktur,
Mathematical double struck (blackboard-bold),
Mathematical bold fraktur,
Mathematical sans-serif,
Mathematical sans-serif bold,
Mathematical sans-serif italic,
Mathematical sans-serif bold italic,
Mathematical monospace,
and some similar sets of Greek.
So as long as you don't want strike-through or underlying,
and as long as you don't want italic Cyrillic &c, ...
Too bad if you want a bold italic capital Thorn...

> 
>> What if I want to use indentation to express quotation instead?
> 
> I think this one is solvable: a paragraph that's more indented than the
> previous heading can be considered a quote.

Ah, but the quotation might not end with a sentence terminator,
so that would be considered a new heading.
José Lopes | 19 Sep 02:21 2012
Picon

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language

Hey Richard,

Regarding the languages, I think it is better to start with English
and see how successful Fmark is. There's no point in trying to tackle
lots of languages if we cannot solve the problem for one of them.
But then again, keeping everything Unicode.

In fact, in this matter, I think with Haskell we have an advantage
because things like 'isSpace' and 'isPuncuation' work with Unicode.

I now understand that the README.md is rather incomplete. I will
add some more information about the markup. Although, things
like bold, italics and so on are not implemented yet.

I will also take a look at your letter example. I think the real
challenge here is center alignment. I will think about a
way to solve it in Fmark so we can discuss it later on.

Thank you for the feedback.

Cheers,
José

On 19-09-2012 00:37, Richard O'Keefe wrote:
> On 19/09/2012, at 1:43 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>
>>> The problem with that is that some people DO end some headings with
>>> a full stop; for them your special syntax is not natural.
>> Markdown/ReST is already using the "no syntax" idea (e.g. compared to
>> pre-wiki markup such a LaTeX or Texinfo), so he's simply trying to push
>> this idea further.
> Markdown is very heavy on syntax,
> what it is *light* on is specification of what the
> syntax actually is.  As a result,
> I'm aware of three different dialects,
> and someone told me about having to reverse
> engineer the syntax from a Perl implementation.
> As a further result, I cannot write a program to
> reliably *generate* Markdown.
>> I suspect it'll be difficult.
> Oh, more power to him for trying.
> I just don't think it can be pushed very far.
>
> Oh, there is a really *filthy* hack that could be pulled
> for italics, bold face, and so on.  Contrary to its original
> principles, Unicode includes several copies of ASCII
> (see http://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1D400.pdf):
> Mathematical bold,
> Mathematical italic,
> Mathematical bold italic,
> Mathematical script,
> Mathematical bold script,
> Mathematical fraktur,
> Mathematical double struck (blackboard-bold),
> Mathematical bold fraktur,
> Mathematical sans-serif,
> Mathematical sans-serif bold,
> Mathematical sans-serif italic,
> Mathematical sans-serif bold italic,
> Mathematical monospace,
> and some similar sets of Greek.
> So as long as you don't want strike-through or underlying,
> and as long as you don't want italic Cyrillic &c, ...
> Too bad if you want a bold italic capital Thorn...
>
>>> What if I want to use indentation to express quotation instead?
>> I think this one is solvable: a paragraph that's more indented than the
>> previous heading can be considered a quote.
> Ah, but the quotation might not end with a sentence terminator,
> so that would be considered a new heading.
>
>
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> Haskell-Cafe <at> haskell.org
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--

-- 
José António Branquinho de Oliveira Lopes
Instituto Superior Técnico
Technical University of Lisbon
José Lopes | 19 Sep 04:29 2012
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language

Hello Richard,

I made a first draft of your letter example.
It is not exactly as you had written but I think you might like it.
It is the combination of a content document (letter) and a style
document (letter.style). You can see the results in the PDF, which
was created using the Latex backend and the letter document
class.

Cheers,
José

On 19-09-2012 01:21, José Lopes wrote:
> Hey Richard,
>
> Regarding the languages, I think it is better to start with English
> and see how successful Fmark is. There's no point in trying to tackle
> lots of languages if we cannot solve the problem for one of them.
> But then again, keeping everything Unicode.
>
> In fact, in this matter, I think with Haskell we have an advantage
> because things like 'isSpace' and 'isPuncuation' work with Unicode.
>
> I now understand that the README.md is rather incomplete. I will
> add some more information about the markup. Although, things
> like bold, italics and so on are not implemented yet.
>
> I will also take a look at your letter example. I think the real
> challenge here is center alignment. I will think about a
> way to solve it in Fmark so we can discuss it later on.
>
> Thank you for the feedback.
>
> Cheers,
> José
>
> On 19-09-2012 00:37, Richard O'Keefe wrote:
>> On 19/09/2012, at 1:43 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>
>>>> The problem with that is that some people DO end some headings with
>>>> a full stop; for them your special syntax is not natural.
>>> Markdown/ReST is already using the "no syntax" idea (e.g. compared to
>>> pre-wiki markup such a LaTeX or Texinfo), so he's simply trying to push
>>> this idea further.
>> Markdown is very heavy on syntax,
>> what it is *light* on is specification of what the
>> syntax actually is.  As a result,
>> I'm aware of three different dialects,
>> and someone told me about having to reverse
>> engineer the syntax from a Perl implementation.
>> As a further result, I cannot write a program to
>> reliably *generate* Markdown.
>>> I suspect it'll be difficult.
>> Oh, more power to him for trying.
>> I just don't think it can be pushed very far.
>>
>> Oh, there is a really *filthy* hack that could be pulled
>> for italics, bold face, and so on.  Contrary to its original
>> principles, Unicode includes several copies of ASCII
>> (see http://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1D400.pdf):
>> Mathematical bold,
>> Mathematical italic,
>> Mathematical bold italic,
>> Mathematical script,
>> Mathematical bold script,
>> Mathematical fraktur,
>> Mathematical double struck (blackboard-bold),
>> Mathematical bold fraktur,
>> Mathematical sans-serif,
>> Mathematical sans-serif bold,
>> Mathematical sans-serif italic,
>> Mathematical sans-serif bold italic,
>> Mathematical monospace,
>> and some similar sets of Greek.
>> So as long as you don't want strike-through or underlying,
>> and as long as you don't want italic Cyrillic &c, ...
>> Too bad if you want a bold italic capital Thorn...
>>
>>>> What if I want to use indentation to express quotation instead?
>>> I think this one is solvable: a paragraph that's more indented than the
>>> previous heading can be considered a quote.
>> Ah, but the quotation might not end with a sentence terminator,
>> so that would be considered a new heading.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>> Haskell-Cafe <at> haskell.org
>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>

-- 
José António Branquinho de Oliveira Lopes
Instituto Superior Técnico
Technical University of Lisbon

123 Copper Road,
Gemstone,
Dunedin,
New Zealand 9999

31 February 2016

Dear Schnorer,
   I am writing to you because I am tired of frobulating.
   I am also tired of this and that.

Yours without wax,

Dr Strabismus of Utrecht
(whom God preserve!)
Attachment (letter.pdf): application/pdf, 25 KiB
Address

Date

Opening,
  Letter.

Closing,

Signature
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Mario Blažević | 19 Sep 23:46 2012

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language

On 12-09-18 07:37 PM, Richard O'Keefe wrote:
>
> On 19/09/2012, at 1:43 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>
>>> The problem with that is that some people DO end some headings with
>>> a full stop; for them your special syntax is not natural.
>>
>> Markdown/ReST is already using the "no syntax" idea (e.g. compared to
>> pre-wiki markup such a LaTeX or Texinfo), so he's simply trying to push
>> this idea further.
>
> Markdown is very heavy on syntax,
> what it is *light* on is specification of what the
> syntax actually is.  As a result,
> I'm aware of three different dialects,
> and someone told me about having to reverse
> engineer the syntax from a Perl implementation.
> As a further result, I cannot write a program to
> reliably *generate* Markdown.

	Very true. Sadly, this is the case with almost all other Wiki-like 
markup schemes out there. They are all implementation-specified. The 
only exception I'm aware of is Creole, for which an EBNF grammar exists, 
even if it's pretty nasty-looking. A look at that specification makes 
one appreciate how badly specified "natural" syntax is.

	In my opinion, there is no single natural syntax that can be imposed on 
ASCII strings and serve majority of uses. There are many different 
syntaxes that feel  natural for different uses and different users, and 
the best we can hope to achieve would be a way to provide a formal and 
readable specification for each of those syntaxes. I've been playing 
with one approach in this direction with the concrete-relaxng-parser 
package, but it's still early days.

>>
>> I suspect it'll be difficult.
>
> Oh, more power to him for trying.
> I just don't think it can be pushed very far.
>
> Oh, there is a really *filthy* hack that could be pulled
> for italics, bold face, and so on.  Contrary to its original
> principles, Unicode includes several copies of ASCII
> (see http://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1D400.pdf):
> Mathematical bold,
> Mathematical italic,
> Mathematical bold italic,
> Mathematical script,
> Mathematical bold script,
> Mathematical fraktur,
> Mathematical double struck (blackboard-bold),
> Mathematical bold fraktur,
> Mathematical sans-serif,
> Mathematical sans-serif bold,
> Mathematical sans-serif italic,
> Mathematical sans-serif bold italic,
> Mathematical monospace,
> and some similar sets of Greek.

Thank you for sharing this hack. It's very amusing.

--

-- 
Mario Blazevic
mblazevic <at> stilo.com
Stilo International

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Richard O'Keefe | 18 Sep 06:00 2012
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] Fmark markup language


On 18/09/2012, at 3:09 PM, José Lopes wrote:
> Fmark (Friendly Markup) is a very simple markup language without
> syntax and simple but sophisticated document styling, capable of
> producing PDF and XML files.

Do you _really_ mean "without syntax"?

Nope, thought not:

	Fmark relies merely on spacing, indentation,
	and common punctuation (e.g., periods, exclamation
	and interrogation marks) to reconstruct the structure
	of your document.

That's SYNTAX.

A markup language without syntax is like a meal without food.

Gmane