gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general

Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no
negative responses.

In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list advising
readers on how to react.  Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had
originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the discussion
to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in this thread or,
after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed feelings
regarding this idea.

In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing
list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive.  Participation by educators using Haskell, once
Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome.

Please post your responses initially in this thread.  After a few rounds, this discussion will probably
move to Haskell-Cafe.

-- Benjamin L. Russell

--- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list
> To: "The Haskell Mailing List" <haskell <at> haskell.org>
> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM
> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on
> Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and
> elementary-level learners of Haskell, called
> "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing
> List."  This new mailing list would be guided by the

(Continue reading)

headers

Michael Vanier | 2 Jul 09:58

Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

FYI there is precedent for this kind of thing in the functional programming world.  PLT Scheme has a 
Scheme mailing list and also a Scheme-in-education mailing list, which tackles the problems of 
trying to teach Scheme to new programmers.  If you start such a mailing list for Haskell, I'd like 
to be on it.

Mike

Benjamin L. Russell wrote:
> So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no
negative responses.
> 
> In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list
advising readers on how to react.  Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow,
had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the
discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in
this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have
mixed feelings regarding this idea.
> 
> In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new
mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive.  Participation by educators using Haskell,
once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome.
> 
> Please post your responses initially in this thread.  After a few rounds, this discussion will probably
move to Haskell-Cafe.
> 
> -- Benjamin L. Russell
> 
> --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> From: Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>

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Benjamin L. Russell | 2 Jul 11:34

Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 00:58:08 -0700, Michael Vanier
<mvanier <at> cs.caltech.edu> wrote:

>FYI there is precedent for this kind of thing in the functional programming world.  PLT Scheme has a 
>Scheme mailing list and also a Scheme-in-education mailing list, which tackles the problems of 
>trying to teach Scheme to new programmers.  If you start such a mailing list for Haskell, I'd like 
>to be on it.

Thank you for your response.

It is interesting that you should mention PLT Scheme in particular,
because my idea was actually indirectly influenced by the
education-oriented culture on the plt-scheme mailing list, where I
also participate.  I use both Hugs (in addition to GHC) and DrScheme
frequently in studying Haskell and Scheme, and often write equivalent
programs in both Haskell and Scheme.  The two main functional
programming languages that I studied in college were Scheme and
Haskell as well.

Having seen the usefulness of Scheme in studying programming as part
of a liberal arts education there, I wondered whether Haskell could
not also fulfill this role.  I saw no reason that it couldn't.

However, over the last six months or so, I noticed that the same kind
of beginner-level questions on both languages tended to generate quite
different responses on plt-scheme and haskell-cafe.  Most of the
people there are educators, as opposed to researchers, and they tend
to be less impatient and more responsive to beginner-level questions
on the language, but there is less discussion there of research-level
topics.  It seemed that beginner-level discussion and research-level

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Michael Vanier | 2 Jul 11:49

Re: Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

Just one nit to pick: AFAIK Haskell's type system is _way_ beyond simply typed lambda calculus, and 
is closer to system F (experts can weigh in here).  Not that this invalidates any of your other points.

Also, I surmise that a big reason Scheme went the strict route is that it made it much easier to 
handle side-effecting computations.

Mike

Benjamin L.Russell wrote:
> On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 00:58:08 -0700, Michael Vanier
> <mvanier <at> cs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> 
>> FYI there is precedent for this kind of thing in the functional programming world.  PLT Scheme has a 
>> Scheme mailing list and also a Scheme-in-education mailing list, which tackles the problems of 
>> trying to teach Scheme to new programmers.  If you start such a mailing list for Haskell, I'd like 
>> to be on it.
> 
> Thank you for your response.
> 
> It is interesting that you should mention PLT Scheme in particular,
> because my idea was actually indirectly influenced by the
> education-oriented culture on the plt-scheme mailing list, where I
> also participate.  I use both Hugs (in addition to GHC) and DrScheme
> frequently in studying Haskell and Scheme, and often write equivalent
> programs in both Haskell and Scheme.  The two main functional
> programming languages that I studied in college were Scheme and
> Haskell as well.
> 
> Having seen the usefulness of Scheme in studying programming as part
> of a liberal arts education there, I wondered whether Haskell could

(Continue reading)

headers

Andrew Wagner | 2 Jul 15:14

Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

I would certainly join such a list. My only concer would be that
moderating such a list could be tricky. How do you judge when a
discussion has become "too technical"? And what do you do about it?
Force the members to take it to -cafe? Anyway, I like the idea of
having a more beginner-friendly list, and have suggested something
similar for the IRC channel multiple times.

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:39 AM, Benjamin L. Russell
<dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com> wrote:
> So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no
negative responses.
>
> In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list
advising readers on how to react.  Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow,
had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the
discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in
this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have
mixed feelings regarding this idea.
>
> In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new
mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive.  Participation by educators using Haskell,
once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome.
>
> Please post your responses initially in this thread.  After a few rounds, this discussion will probably
move to Haskell-Cafe.
>
> -- Benjamin L. Russell
>
> --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com> wrote:
>

(Continue reading)

headers

Paul Hudak | 2 Jul 15:57

Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

Hi Benjamin. I think this is a great idea, for all the reasons you mention. Starting this fall I will be teaching a two-term computer music course based on Haskore and HasSound (Haskell libraries for computer music), and I would love to have an on-line forum that I could recommend to my students, some of whom will not be hard-core computer science majors. Thanks for initiating this.

-Paul Hudak

Benjamin L. Russell wrote:

So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no negative responses. In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list advising readers on how to react. Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed feelings regarding this idea. In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive. Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome. Please post your responses initially in this thread. After a few rounds, this discussion will probably move to Haskell-Cafe. -- Benjamin L. Russell --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list To: "The Haskell Mailing List" <haskell <at> haskell.org> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM I am interested in starting a new mailing list on Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and elementary-level learners of Haskell, called "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing List." This new mailing list would be guided by the principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts education, on a par with Scheme. When I suggested the idea of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here to ask for feedback. The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would be as follows: 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to in research. 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal arts education, as opposed to an engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists: a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for announcements and for non-beginner discussions b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of the language Haskell. Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have witnessed several instances in which new users who were not familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not assume enough mathematical background, or for posting messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the mailing list. (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a private e-mail message from another poster asking the former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this question required the knowledge that screen resolution could be considered independently from the precision of the algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and received the above-mentioned response.) This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics background. The primary audience of this new mailing list would be educators and students in a liberal arts curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for studying functional programming. Currently, the language Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell may either not have a computer science background, or may not have a sophisticated mathematical background. Posts from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers, who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find valuable information to aid their research, but may be welcome in a more education-focused context. It would seem that creating a new mailing list, Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding questions from students in that context, would help increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in industry. Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background would be able to ask elementary questions to educators willing to discuss such questions, without being expected to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science background. -- Benjamin L. Russell --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow <marlowsd <at> gmail.com> wrote:
From: Simon Marlow <marlowsd <at> gmail.com> Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing
list
To: "Benjamin L. Russell"
<dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>
Cc: "John Peterson"
<jpeterson <at> western.edu>
Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM Hi Benjamin, Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list
has
a narrow focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this
case
you're proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it needs discussion amongst the community before we create the list, so
that we
can keep a consistent strategy. That's not to say that I disagree with your
proposal.
But it doesn't seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and
why
haskell-cafe shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that
isn't
clear is whether the list you're proposing is for people interested in *teaching* Haskell (in which case I'd say it's a great idea), or
people
*learning* Haskell (in which case I'd consider carefully whether
haskell-cafe
shoudn't be serving that need). That's something you need to clarify when proposing this list to the community. So I suggest you send this proposal out to haskell <at> haskell.org in the first instance, and see what response you get.
Discussion
should move to haskell-cafe quickly. Cheers, Simon Benjamin L. Russell wrote:
Greetings, John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail
message requesting you to perform set-up of a new Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org.
My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am

interested in
starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan
to call
Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research beginner-level educational matters, guided by the philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to non-computer science major students.
This topic is not covered by any of the other

mailing
lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and
Haskell-Cafe
for the past six months or so, but the former is
devoted to
announcements, and the latter de facto to research
matters.
Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly
academic
and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science
majors
interested in learning Haskell.
Since John Peterson recommended that I request

you to
set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you
please
set it whenever you have free time, as follows:
Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu E-mail Address: haskell-edu <at> haskell.org Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing

List:
Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in Education
Could you please advise me on what I need to do

to
start this mailing list? Should I host it on
haskell.org,
or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org
mailing
list service? Also, how should I have it listed in
the
"www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the benefit of other members of the Haskell community?
Thank you very much for your time and

cooperation.

Sincerely yours, Benjamin L. Russell --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson
<jpeterson <at> western.edu> wrote:

From: John Peterson

<jpeterson <at> western.edu>

Subject: RE: on starting a new

Haskell-related
mailing list

To: "Benjamin L. Russell"

<dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>

Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM Hi Benjamin, There's no problem starting a new mailing

list. Simon

Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if

you
drop him

and email he'll do the setup for

Haskell.org.
Once the

list is going, you can go into the wiki and

add it
to the

appropriate pages. We've had a bunch of these special

interest
lists and

most of them go dead after a few months but

you
never know

... John
--- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell
<dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Benjamin L. Russell

<dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>

Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related

mailing
list

To: "John Peterson"

<jpeterson <at> western.edu>

Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM Greetings, My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am

interested in

starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which

I
plan to

call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to

non-research

beginner-level educational matters, guided by

the

philosophy that Haskell should be more

accessible
to

non-computer science major students. (This

message is

being addressed to you because I had already

sent
the

portion below twice to other administrators

at
Haskell.org,

first to mailman-owner <at> haskell.org, and then

to

simonmarhaskell <at> gmail.com, but had not

received a
response

on either occasion.) This topic is not covered by any of the other

mailing

lists. I have regularly read both Haskell

and
Haskell-Cafe

for the past six months or so, but the former

is
devoted to

announcements, and the latter de facto to

research
matters.

Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is

overly
academic

and research-oriented, and I feel that this

creates an

unnecessary learning curve for non-computer

science majors

interested in learning Haskell. Could you please advise me on what I need to

do to
start

this mailing list? Should I host it on

haskell.org, or

just start it by myself using a

non-Haskell.org
mailing

list service? Also, how should I have it

listed
in the

"www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo)

page for
the

benefit of other members of the Haskell

community?

Thank you very much for your time and

cooperation.

Sincerely yours, Benjamin L. Russell

_______________________________________________ Haskell mailing list Haskell <at> haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell
_______________________________________________ Haskell mailing list Haskell <at> haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell

_______________________________________________
Haskell mailing list
Haskell <at> haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell

headers

jur | 2 Jul 12:59

Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list


On Jul 1, 2008, at 1:37 PM, Benjamin L. Russell wrote:

> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on Haskell.org, aimed  
> mainly at liberal arts teachers and elementary-level learners of  
> Haskell, called "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing  
> List."  This new mailing list would be guided by the principle that  
> Haskell is useful not just in research, but also in teaching  
> programming as part of a liberal arts education, on a par with  
> Scheme.  When I suggested the idea of this mailing list to Simon  
> Marlow, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, he suggested  
> that I post this idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting  
> it here to ask for feedback.
>
> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would be as  
> follows:
>
> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to  
> serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the uses of Haskell in  
> education, such as in high school and in introductory computer  
> science college courses, as opposed to in research.
>
> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to  
> serve the needs of non-computer-science students of Haskell who wish  
> to focus on Haskell as a language for learning programming as part  
> of a well-rounded a liberal arts education, as opposed to an  
> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education.
>
> Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists:
>
> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for announcements  
> and for non-beginner discussions
>
> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for everything else,  
> but in fact used primarily for serious academic computer-science  
> research-oriented discussion of the language Haskell.
>
> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for teaching  
> functional programming as part of a liberal arts education, and  
> while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly responsible for addressing  
> beginner questions, I have witnessed several instances in which new  
> users who were not familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell  
> Cafe have been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not  
> assume enough mathematical background, or for posting messages that  
> were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and that therefore did not  
> fit into the serious tone of the mailing list.
>
> (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a private e-mail  
> message from another poster asking the former not to "pollute" The  
> Haskell-Cafe Mailing List for assuming that screen pixel resolution  
> was somehow related to the precision of an algorithm that picked  
> points randomly from a square in approximating pi.  Avoiding this  
> question required the knowledge that screen resolution could be  
> considered independently from the precision of the algorithm itself,  
> but while this point may be elementary to mathematicians and  
> researchers, the poster was not familiar enough with the issue to  
> grasp this immediately, and received the above-mentioned response.)
>
> This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue of  
> teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, and of  
> answering beginner questions about Haskell from students who may not  
> have a sophisticated mathematics background.  The primary audience  
> of this new mailing list would be educators and students in a  
> liberal arts curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for  
> studying functional programming.  Currently, the language Scheme is  
> often used in this context (even though Scheme is not a true  
> functional programming language), but Haskell has recently been  
> gaining ground rapidly as a programming language in industry as  
> well, and many students of Haskell may either not have a computer  
> science background, or may not have a sophisticated mathematical  
> background.  Posts from such users may tend to irritate serious  
> researchers, who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find  
> valuable information to aid their research, but may be welcome
> in a more education-focused context.
>
> It would seem that creating a new mailing list, Haskell-Edu,  
> focusing on using Haskell in teaching programming in a liberal arts  
> context, and fielding questions from students in that context, would  
> help increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread knowledge  
> about Haskell to potential future users in industry.  Teachers in a  
> liberal arts curriculum could discuss teaching Haskell in a non- 
> research context, and students of Haskell with a liberal arts- 
> related background would be able to ask elementary questions to  
> educators willing to discuss such questions, without being expected  
> to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science background.
>
Hi all,

I am all for a separate channel or resource for beginners in Haskell.  
I can imagine that even the run-of-the-mill discussions in the  
existing venues
will scare them off. It might also be a good place for educators and  
students to talk about their experiences in teaching and being taught  
Haskell.
E.g., what kind of assignments work, which don't.

Also it will give me a venue to bring Helium to the attention of these  
beginners and their educators.
I am currently bringing the Helium compiler up to speed (but this is  
not a formal announcement).
However, if you simply cannot wait, set your browser to http://www.cs.uu.nl/wiki/Helium 
  .

cheers,
Jur

> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow <marlowsd <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Simon Marlow <marlowsd <at> gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing list
>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>
>> Cc: "John Peterson" <jpeterson <at> western.edu>
>> Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM
>> Hi Benjamin,
>>
>> Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list has
>> a narrow
>> focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche.  In this case
>> you're
>> proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it
>> needs discussion
>> amongst the community before we create the list, so that we
>> can keep a
>> consistent strategy.
>>
>> That's not to say that I disagree with your proposal.
>> But it doesn't
>> seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and why
>> haskell-cafe
>> shouldn't serve the purpose.  One thing that isn't
>> clear is whether the
>> list you're proposing is for people interested in
>> *teaching* Haskell (in
>> which case I'd say it's a great idea), or people
>> *learning* Haskell (in
>> which case I'd consider carefully whether haskell-cafe
>> shoudn't be
>> serving that need).  That's something you need to
>> clarify when proposing
>> this list to the community.
>>
>> So I suggest you send this proposal out to
>> haskell <at> haskell.org in the
>> first instance, and see what response you get.  Discussion
>> should move
>> to haskell-cafe quickly.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> 	Simon
>>
>> Benjamin L. Russell wrote:
>>> Greetings,
>>>
>>> John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail
>> message requesting you to perform set-up of a new
>> Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to
>> moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the
>> administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org.
>>>
>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am interested in
>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan to call
>> Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research
>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the
>> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to
>> non-computer science major students.
>>>
>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other mailing
>> lists.  I have regularly read both Haskell and Haskell-Cafe
>> for the past six months or so, but the former is devoted to
>> announcements, and the latter de facto to research matters.
>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly academic
>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an
>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science majors
>> interested in learning Haskell.
>>>
>>> Since John Peterson recommended that I request you to
>> set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you please
>> set it whenever you have free time, as follows:
>>>
>>> Name of Mailing List:  Haskell-Edu
>>> E-mail Address:        haskell-edu <at> haskell.org
>>> Description:           The Haskell-Edu Mailing List:
>> Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in
>> Education
>>>
>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do to
>> start this mailing list?  Should I host it on haskell.org,
>> or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org mailing
>> list service?  Also, how should I have it listed in the
>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists"
>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the
>> benefit of other members of the Haskell community?
>>>
>>> Thank you very much for your time and cooperation.
>>>
>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>
>>> Benjamin L. Russell
>>>
>>> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson
>> <jpeterson <at> western.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: John Peterson <jpeterson <at> western.edu>
>>>> Subject: RE: on starting a new Haskell-related
>> mailing list
>>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell"
>> <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>
>>>> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM
>>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>>
>>>> There's no problem starting a new mailing
>> list.  Simon
>>>> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if you
>> drop him
>>>> and email he'll do the setup for Haskell.org.
>> Once the
>>>> list is going, you can go into the wiki and add it
>> to the
>>>> appropriate pages.
>>>>
>>>> We've had a bunch of these special interest
>> lists and
>>>> most of them go dead after a few months but you
>> never know
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   John
>>>
>>> --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell
>> <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell
>> <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>
>>>> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing
>> list
>>>> To: "John Peterson"
>> <jpeterson <at> western.edu>
>>>> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM
>>>> Greetings,
>>>>
>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am
>> interested in
>>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I
>> plan to
>>>> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to
>> non-research
>>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the
>>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible
>> to
>>>> non-computer science major students.  (This
>> message is
>>>> being addressed to you because I had already sent
>> the
>>>> portion below twice to other administrators at
>> Haskell.org,
>>>> first to mailman-owner <at> haskell.org, and then to
>>>> simonmarhaskell <at> gmail.com, but had not received a
>> response
>>>> on either occasion.)
>>>>
>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other
>> mailing
>>>> lists.  I have regularly read both Haskell and
>> Haskell-Cafe
>>>> for the past six months or so, but the former is
>> devoted to
>>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to research
>> matters.
>>>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly
>> academic
>>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this
>> creates an
>>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer
>> science majors
>>>> interested in learning Haskell.
>>>>
>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do to
>> start
>>>> this mailing list?  Should I host it on
>> haskell.org, or
>>>> just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org
>> mailing
>>>> list service?  Also, how should I have it listed
>> in the
>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists"
>>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for
>> the
>>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell community?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much for your time and cooperation.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>>
>>>> Benjamin L. Russell
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell mailing list
> Haskell <at> haskell.org
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell

headers

Manuel M T Chakravarty | 4 Jul 04:29

Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

Benjamin L. Russell:
> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on Haskell.org, aimed  
> mainly at liberal arts teachers and elementary-level learners of  
> Haskell, called "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing  
> List."  This new mailing list would be guided by the principle that  
> Haskell is useful not just in research, but also in teaching  
> programming as part of a liberal arts education, on a par with  
> Scheme.  When I suggested the idea of this mailing list to Simon  
> Marlow, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, he suggested  
> that I post this idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting  
> it here to ask for feedback.
>
> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would be as  
> follows:
>
> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to  
> serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the uses of Haskell in  
> education, such as in high school and in introductory computer  
> science college courses, as opposed to in research.
>
> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to  
> serve the needs of non-computer-science students of Haskell who wish  
> to focus on Haskell as a language for learning programming as part  
> of a well-rounded a liberal arts education, as opposed to an  
> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education.

The Haskell community seems to be growing quickly and clearly becomes  
more diverse.  So, a mailing list aimed at users with less experience  
and/or a non-computing, non-math background makes sense to me.

Whether you will be able to gather a critical mass of knowledgeable  
people who are happy to answer questions on the list is hard to answer  
without trying your idea.  But mailing lists are cheap.  So, I'd say,  
let's give it a try and see whether it works.  In any case, it'd be  
important to describe the purpose of the list at

   http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Mailing_lists

properly to make clear which discussions should go to which list.

Manuel

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Simon Marlow | 4 Jul 11:40

Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

Manuel M T Chakravarty wrote:
> Benjamin L. Russell:
>> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on Haskell.org, aimed 
>> mainly at liberal arts teachers and elementary-level learners of 
>> Haskell, called "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing List."  
>> This new mailing list would be guided by the principle that Haskell is 
>> useful not just in research, but also in teaching programming as part 
>> of a liberal arts education, on a par with Scheme.  When I suggested 
>> the idea of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org mailing 
>> list administrator, he suggested that I post this idea on The Haskell 
>> Mailing List, so I am posting it here to ask for feedback.
>>
>> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would be as 
>> follows:
>>
>> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to 
>> serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the uses of Haskell in 
>> education, such as in high school and in introductory computer science 
>> college courses, as opposed to in research.
>>
>> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to 
>> serve the needs of non-computer-science students of Haskell who wish 
>> to focus on Haskell as a language for learning programming as part of 
>> a well-rounded a liberal arts education, as opposed to an 
>> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education.
> 
> The Haskell community seems to be growing quickly and clearly becomes 
> more diverse.  So, a mailing list aimed at users with less experience 
> and/or a non-computing, non-math background makes sense to me.
> 
> Whether you will be able to gather a critical mass of knowledgeable 
> people who are happy to answer questions on the list is hard to answer 
> without trying your idea.  But mailing lists are cheap.  So, I'd say, 
> let's give it a try and see whether it works.  In any case, it'd be 
> important to describe the purpose of the list at
> 
>   http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Mailing_lists
> 
> properly to make clear which discussions should go to which list.

My main concern here is that the remit for the new list is not clear 
enough.  I can see a potential need for two lists:

   * a list for discussion related to teaching Haskell;

   * a list devoted to those learning Haskell, with a less research-
     oriented feel than haskell-cafe.

it's not obvious to me that both of those needs should be served by a 
single list.  I believe it's important that the mailing lists served by 
haskell.org should have clear non-overlapping topics.

So I suggest that we add haskell-edu for the purposes of discussing the use 
and teaching of Haskell in education.  For the second point above, I'd be 
inclined not to add a new list, but I don't feel that strongly - if there's 
a concensus in favour of adding haskell-beginners (for example), that would 
be fine.

Cheers,
	Simon

headers

Ketil Malde | 4 Jul 12:51

Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

Simon Marlow <marlowsd <at> gmail.com> writes:

> My main concern here is that the remit for the new list is not clear
> enough.  I can see a potential need for two lists:
>
>   * a list for discussion related to teaching Haskell;
>
>   * a list devoted to those learning Haskell, with a less research-
>     oriented feel than haskell-cafe.

> it's not obvious to me that both of those needs should be served by a
> single list.  I believe it's important that the mailing lists served
> by haskell.org should have clear non-overlapping topics.

Another concern might be that there currently isn't a lot of
discussion about the first topic on the existing mailing lists.  IMHO,
this may make it unlikely that the list will gather critical mass to
keep rolling.  There's a ton of more specific lists at
http://gmane.org/find.php?list=haskell , yet almost none have any
volume to speak of, the exception is highly specialized lists where
people in the know (ghc developers, summer of code particpants)
subscribe. 

As for beginners, there are occasional beginner questions on
haskell-cafe, but not in such volume that it is detrimental to the
existing lists. I'm not so worried about old-timers not subscribing to
it (you all seem pretty service minded), but I worry that we'll just
keep polluting existing lists with messages telling people to repost
their question to haskell-beginners instead.

IMHO, we might as well just use the existing lists for both of these.
If the perceived problem is the high-brow stuff scaring newbies off,
it's better to add a new list for that topic.

-k
--

-- 
If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants

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Isaac Dupree | 6 Jul 02:26

Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

Ketil Malde wrote:
> IMHO, we might as well just use the existing lists for both of these.
> If the perceived problem is the high-brow stuff scaring newbies off,
> it's better to add a new list for that topic.

rather difficult, because beginner questions can easily spiral into 
curiosity about quite theoretical stuff, with no clear point of 
separation.  And I'm not sure we want to avoid having that kind of 
curiosity, but I suppose it might always intimidate some newbies: a 
predicament I'm not sure we can solve by a mere technical measure of 
splitting up lists.

when I was a newbie I was intimidated by the sheer volume of 
Haskell-Cafe, never mind whether I could understand it or not  but 
also the relatively few amount of beginner questions with beginner 
answers when looking in the list archives, probably made me less sure 
whether my questions would belong there.

-Isaac

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Philippa Cowderoy | 6 Jul 02:33

Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

On Sat, 5 Jul 2008, Isaac Dupree wrote:

> rather difficult, because beginner questions can easily spiral into curiosity
> about quite theoretical stuff, with no clear point of separation.  And I'm not
> sure we want to avoid having that kind of curiosity, but I suppose it might
> always intimidate some newbies: a predicament I'm not sure we can solve by a
> mere technical measure of splitting up lists.
> 

On a newbie list, it's easier to remember to give more of a beginner's 
guide to tough topics - or to point out when 'teachers' should take it to 
-cafe. 

> when I was a newbie I was intimidated by the sheer volume of Haskell-Cafe,
> never mind whether I could understand it or not  but also the relatively
> few amount of beginner questions with beginner answers when looking in the
> list archives, probably made me less sure whether my questions would belong
> there.
> 

That's another good reason for such a list. I suspect a good many "why are 
things like this?" questions would be better handled somewhere like that, 
too.

--

-- 
flippa <at> flippac.org

Sometimes you gotta fight fire with fire. Most
of the time you just get burnt worse though.

headers

Paul Hudak | 8 Jul 21:38

Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

Simon Marlow wrote:
> My main concern here is that the remit for the new list is not clear 
> enough.  I can see a potential need for two lists:
>
>   * a list for discussion related to teaching Haskell;
>
>   * a list devoted to those learning Haskell, with a less research-
>     oriented feel than haskell-cafe.
>
> it's not obvious to me that both of those needs should be served by a 
> single list.  I believe it's important that the mailing lists served 
> by haskell.org should have clear non-overlapping topics.
>
> So I suggest that we add haskell-edu for the purposes of discussing 
> the use and teaching of Haskell in education.  For the second point 
> above, I'd be inclined not to add a new list, but I don't feel that 
> strongly - if there's a concensus in favour of adding 
> haskell-beginners (for example), that would be fine.
>
> Cheers,
>     Simon
Using Simon's names, I think that there is a greater need for 
haskell-beginners than for haskell-edu.  Despite the friendly people on 
haskell-cafe, it is very intimidating, and very busy (sadly, I've mostly 
stopped reading it for the latter reason).  I don't think that 
haskell-cafe serves well at all as a forum for beginners, whereas it 
might serve just fine as a forum for instructors.

In any case, these are two distinct purposes, and I agree with Simon 
that it's probably unwise to have a single mailing list for both.  I 
would vote for starting a haskell-beginners list and see how it goes.  I 
think that a decent number of experienced people will chip in to answer 
questions (they don't have to be experts -- just good at explaining 
things), and in my experience beginners like to help fellow beginners -- 
i.e. it will sustain itself.

I would also be interested in a haskell-edu list, but as I said before I 
don't think the demand for it is as great as that for haskell-beginners.

By the way, the haskell-art mailing list is not very active, but it has 
served a useful role.  I wonder if it would help to have a description 
of it (and any new lists that we create) to the descriptions at:

http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Mailing_lists

    -Paul Hudak

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Benjamin L. Russell | 11 Jul 14:40

Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

Please allow me to thank everybody for their feedback.

So far, including the three private messages I have received, there
have been the following responses on creating a new mailing list for
Haskell:

Haskell-Beginner (or Haskell-Edu for beginners):
  8 votes

Haskell-Edu (for teaching):
  2 votes

No new mailing lists:
  1 vote

Undecided:

  1 vote

So, 8/12 of the responses have been in favor of creating some kind of
new mailing list for education, with 8/10 of those being in favor of
creating a new list for beginners, and 2/10 of those being in favor of
creating a new list for teachers.  Other than that, 1/12 of the votes
has been in favor of not creating a new list unless "the perceived
problem is the high-brow stuff scaring newbies off," and 1/12 of the
votes has been undecided.

It seems that the consensus is in favor of creating some kind of new
list for beginners, with a less urgent possibility of creating another
new list for teachers.

I would be happy to spend the time to administer the new mailing list
if that is acceptable.

The only issue is the name of the new list, though:  it would seem a
better idea to keep the name mnemonic and short, with the suffix
following "Haskell-" within three or four characters.  Typing
"haskell-beginner <at> haskell.org" seems a bit of a hassle;
"haskell-edu <at> haskell.org" seems much better.

The only possible problem is that it would then make later creating a
second list just for teachers more difficult, but this seems rather
unlikely at the moment.  Also, I doubt that a teachers-only list would
be able to gather enough critical mass to stay alive, because then
only teachers would participate.  I don't see why teachers wouldn't be
able to participate together with students in consulting each other as
to what topics to offer in beginner courses.

Therefore, I would suggest the following new mailing list.  To save
your time, may I suggest the following entries for the fields at
"Create a haskell.org Mailing List"
(http://haskell.org/mailman/create):

Name of List:  Haskell-Edu

Initial list owner address:  DekuDekuplex <at> Yahoo.com

Auto-generate initial list password?:  Yes

Should new members be quarantined before they are allowed to post
unmoderated to this list?  No

Initial list of supported languages.  English
(If possible, Japanese and French also, since I know several members
of a local Haskell Category Theory user group in Tokyo who could also
participate in such a list, and know the name of at least one
professor in France who occasionally contributes to Haskell-related
topics.  Other relevant languages could also be welcome.)

Send "list created" email to list owner?  Yes

In addition, for the "List" and "Description" columns at "haskell.org
mailing lists - Admin Links", the following entries might be
applicable:

List:  Haskell-Edu
Description:  Discussion about beginner questions and issues in
teaching Haskell

What do you think, Simon?

-- Benjamin L. Russell

 (http://haskell.org/mailman/admin) 
On Tue, 08 Jul 2008 15:38:34 -0400, Paul Hudak <paul.hudak <at> yale.edu>
wrote:

>Simon Marlow wrote:
>> My main concern here is that the remit for the new list is not clear 
>> enough.  I can see a potential need for two lists:
>>
>>   * a list for discussion related to teaching Haskell;
>>
>>   * a list devoted to those learning Haskell, with a less research-
>>     oriented feel than haskell-cafe.
>>
>> it's not obvious to me that both of those needs should be served by a 
>> single list.  I believe it's important that the mailing lists served 
>> by haskell.org should have clear non-overlapping topics.
>>
>> So I suggest that we add haskell-edu for the purposes of discussing 
>> the use and teaching of Haskell in education.  For the second point 
>> above, I'd be inclined not to add a new list, but I don't feel that 
>> strongly - if there's a concensus in favour of adding 
>> haskell-beginners (for example), that would be fine.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>     Simon
>Using Simon's names, I think that there is a greater need for 
>haskell-beginners than for haskell-edu.  Despite the friendly people on 
>haskell-cafe, it is very intimidating, and very busy (sadly, I've mostly 
>stopped reading it for the latter reason).  I don't think that 
>haskell-cafe serves well at all as a forum for beginners, whereas it 
>might serve just fine as a forum for instructors.
>
>In any case, these are two distinct purposes, and I agree with Simon 
>that it's probably unwise to have a single mailing list for both.  I 
>would vote for starting a haskell-beginners list and see how it goes.  I 
>think that a decent number of experienced people will chip in to answer 
>questions (they don't have to be experts -- just good at explaining 
>things), and in my experience beginners like to help fellow beginners -- 
>i.e. it will sustain itself.
>
>I would also be interested in a haskell-edu list, but as I said before I 
>don't think the demand for it is as great as that for haskell-beginners.
>
>By the way, the haskell-art mailing list is not very active, but it has 
>served a useful role.  I wonder if it would help to have a description 
>of it (and any new lists that we create) to the descriptions at:
>
>http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Mailing_lists
>
>    -Paul Hudak

headers

Chad Wilson | 11 Jul 14:47

Re: Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

>From previous experience with this sort of thing (the expansion of
usage for a list(s)), I am thinking you guys have entered a territory
better served by a forum.  One subscription gets you access to the
cafe, announcements, n00b section, teachers, core functions, etc.
While a forum lacks the convenience of using your e-mail client, it
does offer a better organization and clearer interface to where the
information should be posted.

-w

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Dave Bayer | 11 Jul 15:24

Re: Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

On Jul 11, 2008, at 5:47 AM, Chad Wilson wrote:

> From previous experience with this sort of thing (the expansion of
> usage for a list(s)), I am thinking you guys have entered a territory
> better served by a forum.  One subscription gets you access to the
> cafe, announcements, n00b section, teachers, core functions, etc.
> While a forum lacks the convenience of using your e-mail client, it
> does offer a better organization and clearer interface to where the
> information should be posted.

Yes!!

I participate in various lists and various forums. That Haskell
uses lists has crippled my participation here; I am quite sure I am
not alone. Nabble and the like do not substitute for real forum
software.

I know the counter-arguments in favor of lists, but most of us
_do_ _not_ use an emacs mode for our email. Hasn't nearly
everyone who does gone off to write their own Lisp? It truly
boggles my mind that Haskell doesn't use a forum, but this is
a discussion I gave up on entering, till the above message.

Haskell wants to grow. Sticking to lists keeps it a "tree house"
language.

Now, we're so balkanized, I'd have to go back and rejoin
the other Haskell lists I dropped, if I wanted to stir this up.
Anyone else interested, who's on the other lists?

Lurkers unite?

headers

minh thu | 11 Jul 15:37

Re: Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

2008/7/11 Dave Bayer <bayer <at> cpw.math.columbia.edu>:
> On Jul 11, 2008, at 5:47 AM, Chad Wilson wrote:
>
>> From previous experience with this sort of thing (the expansion of
>> usage for a list(s)), I am thinking you guys have entered a territory
>> better served by a forum.  One subscription gets you access to the
>> cafe, announcements, n00b section, teachers, core functions, etc.
>> While a forum lacks the convenience of using your e-mail client, it
>> does offer a better organization and clearer interface to where the
>> information should be posted.
>
> Yes!!
>
> I participate in various lists and various forums. That Haskell
> uses lists has crippled my participation here; I am quite sure I am
> not alone. Nabble and the like do not substitute for real forum
> software.
>
> I know the counter-arguments in favor of lists, but most of us
> _do_ _not_ use an emacs mode for our email. Hasn't nearly
> everyone who does gone off to write their own Lisp? It truly
> boggles my mind that Haskell doesn't use a forum, but this is
> a discussion I gave up on entering, till the above message.
>
> Haskell wants to grow. Sticking to lists keeps it a "tree house"
> language.
>
> Now, we're so balkanized, I'd have to go back and rejoin
> the other Haskell lists I dropped, if I wanted to stir this up.
> Anyone else interested, who's on the other lists?
>
> Lurkers unite?

Hi,

Well, in my opinion, annoucements a better served with a mailing list.
Usage of an mailing list is "push" while forum is "pull". This is because
I check my mails regardless I want to see haskell-related stuffs or not.
Thus I can spot announces.

This is why I kept registered on the haskell (and -cafe) mailing list(s).
I don't use haskell regularly but want to keep me informed.

This is even truer since I follow (like everybody I guess) many lists.

Cheers,
Thu

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Sittampalam, Ganesh | 11 Jul 16:04

RE: Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

Dave Bayer wrote: 

> I participate in various lists and 
> various forums. That Haskell uses 
> lists has crippled my participation
> here; I am quite sure I am not alone.
> Nabble and the like do not substitute
> for real forum software.

I'm sure you're not alone, but I'm equally sure that there are many
people like me whose participation would be crippled by any switch to a
forum. And I don't use an emacs mode for my email, nor have I written my
own Lisp.

Given the growth in traffic on haskell-cafe, perhaps offering a forum
*as well* would be a reasonable thing to do. There are now enough people
around that having multiple venues for discussion wouldn't be too
damaging.

Ganesh

==============================================================================
Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: 

http://www.credit-suisse.com/legal/en/disclaimer_email_ib.html
==============================================================================

headers

Jonathan Cast | 11 Jul 16:09

RE: Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 15:04 +0100, Sittampalam, Ganesh wrote:
> Dave Bayer wrote: 
> 
> > I participate in various lists and 
> > various forums. That Haskell uses 
> > lists has crippled my participation
> > here; I am quite sure I am not alone.
> > Nabble and the like do not substitute
> > for real forum software.
> 
> I'm sure you're not alone, but I'm equally sure that there are many
> people like me whose participation would be crippled by any switch to a
> forum. And I don't use an emacs mode for my email, nor have I written my
> own Lisp.
> 
> Given the growth in traffic on haskell-cafe, perhaps offering a forum
> *as well* would be a reasonable thing to do. There are now enough people
> around that having multiple venues for discussion wouldn't be too
> damaging.

+1 for *this*.

jcc

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Simon Marlow | 11 Jul 17:04

Re: Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

Jonathan Cast wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 15:04 +0100, Sittampalam, Ganesh wrote:
>> Dave Bayer wrote: 
>>
>>> I participate in various lists and 
>>> various forums. That Haskell uses 
>>> lists has crippled my participation
>>> here; I am quite sure I am not alone.
>>> Nabble and the like do not substitute
>>> for real forum software.
>> I'm sure you're not alone, but I'm equally sure that there are many
>> people like me whose participation would be crippled by any switch to a
>> forum. And I don't use an emacs mode for my email, nor have I written my
>> own Lisp.
>>
>> Given the growth in traffic on haskell-cafe, perhaps offering a forum
>> *as well* would be a reasonable thing to do. There are now enough people
>> around that having multiple venues for discussion wouldn't be too
>> damaging.
> 
> +1 for *this*.

Absolutely; I'm sure it's been said in the past that it would be generally 
a good thing for someone to set up forums to be used in addition to the 
mailing lists.

I'm probably amongst those that won't participate much in the forums 
because I find them frustratingly slow to navigate, but I don't see any 
reason why we shouldn't *have* forums at all.  We just need someone to set 
it up and do the admin.  Volunteers?

Cheers,
	Simon

headers

Benjamin L. Russell | 14 Jul 06:38

Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:04:16 +0100, Simon Marlow <marlowsd <at> gmail.com>
wrote:

> [...]
> 
>I'm probably amongst those that won't participate much in the forums 
>because I find them frustratingly slow to navigate, but I don't see any 
>reason why we shouldn't *have* forums at all.  We just need someone to set 
>it up and do the admin.  Volunteers?

Count me in as a volunteer for the admin, please.

-- Benjamin L. Russell

headers

Benjamin L. Russell | 14 Jul 07:00

Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

I forgot to mention that I used to be a moderator for a discussion
forum at MetroMac.org, a New York Macintosh user group.  Then one day
a cracker came along, deleted all the posts of *all* the users (and
the backups!), and somehow figured out how to removed my moderator
privileges in the database as well.

(The owners of that site needed a scapegoat, so they blamed *me* for
being the direct target of the attack (I have no idea why), and didn't
restore my moderator privileges.  Since they had lost all their posts
as well, they then needed to spend countless hours building a new
forum and trying to gain back readership, a situation which made they
extremely frustrated and angry.  They did give me a free Supporting
Member account, which normally costs USD $20/year, for one year, but
that was all.  They also forbade me from posting many new posts in
direct succession in other forums to make up for the lost posts,
perhaps in fear that that could somehow risk another cracker attack.)

If a new forum is created, I strongly recommend that mail message
copies of all posts also be sent, and that *off-site* backups be made
frequently.  Web discussion forums are much more susceptible to
cracker attacks than mailing lists unless e-mail messages of all posts
are also sent, because the posts are normally stored in a database.

However, if you do need somebody to moderate/administer the forum, I
may be able to pick up quickly on the details, since I do have
experience as a moderator.

-- Benjamin L. Russell

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:38:07 +0900, Benjamin L.Russell
<DekuDekuplex <at> Yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:04:16 +0100, Simon Marlow <marlowsd <at> gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> [...]
>> 
>>I'm probably amongst those that won't participate much in the forums 
>>because I find them frustratingly slow to navigate, but I don't see any 
>>reason why we shouldn't *have* forums at all.  We just need someone to set 
>>it up and do the admin.  Volunteers?
>
>Count me in as a volunteer for the admin, please.
>
>-- Benjamin L. Russell

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Stefan Monnier | 11 Jul 20:39

Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

> I participate in various lists and various forums.  That Haskell uses
> lists has crippled my participation here; I am quite sure I am not
> alone.  Nabble and the like do not substitute for real forum software.

Funny, it's the first time I hear the argument in this direction.
The only forums I read are those for which there's no
newsgroup/mailing-list: not only are forums poor UI-wise (IMO,
obviously), but also their content is generally much worse.
It generally looks very much like "the blind leading the blind".

> but most of us _do_ _not_ use an Emacs mode for our email.
> Hasn't nearly everyone who does gone off to write their own Lisp?



        Stefan "Emacs maintainer"

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Jonathan Cast | 11 Jul 15:54

Re: Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 08:47 -0400, Chad Wilson wrote:
> >From previous experience with this sort of thing (the expansion of
> usage for a list(s)), I am thinking you guys have entered a territory
> better served by a forum.  One subscription gets you access to the
> cafe, announcements, n00b section, teachers, core functions, etc.
> While a forum lacks the convenience of using your e-mail client, it
> does offer a better organization and clearer interface to where the
> information should be posted.

If the mail interface disappears, so will I.  I have never seen a worth-while web discussion interface.  Ever.

jcc

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Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH | 11 Jul 16:10

Re: Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list


On 2008 Jul 11, at 9:54, Jonathan Cast wrote:

> On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 08:47 -0400, Chad Wilson wrote:
>>> From previous experience with this sort of thing (the expansion of
>> usage for a list(s)), I am thinking you guys have entered a territory
>> better served by a forum.  One subscription gets you access to the
>>
> If the mail interface disappears, so will I.  I have never seen a  
> worth-while web discussion interface.  Ever.

Agreed with a caveat:  I want the ability to track the forum with  
either email summaries (preferred) or an RSS feed; having to manually  
check a web site periodically sucks and is an additional time sink I  
can't really afford, and will de facto result in my leaving the  
community.

--

-- 
brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery <at> kf8nh.com
system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery <at> ece.cmu.edu
electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university    KF8NH

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Bayley, Alistair | 11 Jul 15:04

RE: Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

> From: haskell-bounces <at> haskell.org 
> [mailto:haskell-bounces <at> haskell.org] On Behalf Of Benjamin L.Russell
> 
> The only issue is the name of the new list, though:  it would seem a
> better idea to keep the name mnemonic and short, with the suffix
> following "Haskell-" within three or four characters.  Typing
> "haskell-beginner <at> haskell.org" seems a bit of a hassle;
> "haskell-edu <at> haskell.org" seems much better.

(as I approach the bike-shed, paint-tin and brush ready...)

Is there a requirement that the name be prefixed with haskell-? We have
cabal <at> haskell.org, gui@, libraries@, etc. So why not just
beginner <at> haskell.org, novice <at> haskell.org, or noob <at> haskell.org?

Alistair
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Simon Marlow | 11 Jul 17:13

Re: Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

Bayley, Alistair wrote:
>> From: haskell-bounces <at> haskell.org 
>> [mailto:haskell-bounces <at> haskell.org] On Behalf Of Benjamin L.Russell
>>
>> The only issue is the name of the new list, though:  it would seem a
>> better idea to keep the name mnemonic and short, with the suffix
>> following "Haskell-" within three or four characters.  Typing
>> "haskell-beginner <at> haskell.org" seems a bit of a hassle;
>> "haskell-edu <at> haskell.org" seems much better.
> 
> (as I approach the bike-shed, paint-tin and brush ready...)
> 
> Is there a requirement that the name be prefixed with haskell-? We have
> cabal <at> haskell.org, gui@, libraries@, etc. So why not just
> beginner <at> haskell.org, novice <at> haskell.org, or noob <at> haskell.org?

Quite true.  Any objections to beginner <at> haskell.org?

Cheers,
	Simon

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Neil Mitchell | 11 Jul 17:33

Re: Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

Hi

>  Quite true.  Any objections to beginner <at> haskell.org?

Google suggests that about 1 in 50 web pages spell "beginner" wrong,
using only one "n". Given that many Haskeller's are not native
speakers, could we perhaps pick something that is easier to spell
correctly?

Thanks

Neil

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Peter Verswyvelen | 11 Jul 22:25

RE: Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

starter <at> haskell.org? 

"beginner" sounds so humble...

Cheers,
Peter Verswyvelen
www.anygma.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: haskell-bounces <at> haskell.org [mailto:haskell-bounces <at> haskell.org]
> On Behalf Of Neil Mitchell
> Sent: vrijdag 11 juli 2008 17:33
> To: Simon Marlow
> Cc: Bayley, Alistair; haskell <at> haskell.org
> Subject: Re: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-
> related Haskell-related mailing list
> 
> Hi
> 
> >  Quite true.  Any objections to beginner <at> haskell.org?
> 
> Google suggests that about 1 in 50 web pages spell "beginner" wrong,
> using only one "n". Given that many Haskeller's are not native
> speakers, could we perhaps pick something that is easier to spell
> correctly?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Neil
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell mailing list
> Haskell <at> haskell.org
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell

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Chad Wilson | 11 Jul 23:37

Re: Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 4:25 PM, Peter Verswyvelen <bf3 <at> telenet.be> wrote:
> starter <at> haskell.org?
>
> "beginner" sounds so humble...

n00b <at> haskell.org
i <at> mtehl33t <at> haskell.org (for the experts)

*chuckle*

Sorry, I just had to reply.

-w

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jur | 12 Jul 10:53