RE: Making decisions
Simon Peyton-Jones <simonpj <at> microsoft.com>
2013-05-23 13:14:57 GMT
I wasn't suggesting arbitrary decisions ignoring opinions. On reflection "Tsar" carries the wrong
connotations. How about "Core libraries facilitating group"? Or something less dull-sounding, but
with the same sense. I like democracy as much as the next person. But someone has to drive the process or it
wanders into the long grass.
| -----Original Message-----
| From: amindfv <at> gmail.com [mailto:amindfv <at> gmail.com]
| Sent: 23 May 2013 14:06
| To: Simon Peyton-Jones
| Cc: libraries <at> haskell.org; Simon Peyton-Jones
| Subject: Re: Making decisions
| I enjoy a good Tsar as much as the next man, but I think I'm actually against
| this proposal, at least for deciding the Foldable/Traversable issue.
| From my perspective, it hasn't been an endless amount of discussion with no
| end in sight. At least on the libraries list, there's been healthy discussion, some
| minds have been changed, votes were cast, and generalizing the prelude won
| by a landslide.
| These changes (which I'm for, by the way) have implications for every Haskell
| programmer, and everyone teaching Haskell. They also put lots of information
| in RWH and LYAH out-of-date. We should expect and embrace constructive
| I'm not saying we shouldn't have library Tsars, but in the case of
| Foldable/Traversable, I think democracy has served us well so far.
| El May 23, 2013, a las 3:48 AM, Simon Peyton-Jones <simonpj <at> microsoft.com>
| > This "burning bridges" thread has really got us going!
| > I'm a bit concerned, though, that we don't have an effective mechanism for
| resolving such debates. If everyone feels that they have a vote, perhaps, but
| only one among many, then one feels either mandated or indeed willing to
| invest the extra cycles to summarise pros and cons based on feedback, crisply
| articulate alternatives, and so on. And, worse still, no one feels mandated to
| actually decide anything. That's fine when there's a clear consensus; not so
| fine when there isn't, as here. Several people on the "Burning bridges" thread
| have commented on the interminable nature of the debate.
| > Our general procedures for library changes are described here:
| http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Library_submissions. For specialised
| libraries (eg MD5 checksum, or even containers) the situation is clear: the
| author or current maintainer decides.
| > But for the basic core libraries, whose influence is pervasive, matters are
| murkier. Looking at
| we see that many are maintained by "GHC HQ". But the plain fact is that GHC
| HQ is not up to the task, especially now that Simon M has moved on to
| Facebook. To be absolutely explicit, I'm worried that decision making may get
| stuck because I don't have the capacity to participate, lead, drive, propose, and
| ultimately make a decision. So there's a decision-making vacuum for the "GHC
| HQ" libraries. If that's the case, then the best thing is for GHC HQ to get out of
| the way!
| > Is that what others feel, or are you all happy? My proposal would be to form
| a Library Tsars committee, that
| > * Takes ownership of the "GHC HQ" libraries
| > * Also owns any global library issues; ones that can't be resolved
| > by a single maintainer
| > Like any maintainer the Library Tsars would be expected to follow the
| guidance on the wiki
| ners (responsiveness, consultation, etc). But they could actually decide things.
| > One other thing. I'd certainly consider well-argued proposals for changing
| GHC to better support backward compatibility in the face of library change.
| One such proposal was the "class alias" story, but that was a big, complex
| general mechanism (and arguably big benefits). Because of its complexity it is
| currently stalled. But there may be other much more modest things we could
| do to help; the question about ad-hoc deprecation of Monad without Functor is
| a small, highly-specific, ad-hoc idea.
| > Simon
| > _______________________________________________
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| > Libraries <at> haskell.org
| > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/libraries
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