gmane.comp.lang.lua.general

Gavin Wraith | 5 Oct 13:54

SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

I apologize if this is the wrong forum for this post - it should
be the SciTE interest group, but that involves joining a Google
group, something that I have so far managed to avoid.

As a dedicated Lua user, and as a newcomer to Windows XP, I have been
delighted by SciTE, especially its configurability by Lua scripts.
But the Windows version has a fundamental drawback (I do not know
if versions on other platforms suffer the same): you can only view
one file at a time. I say "view", not "open". The whole purpose of a
desktop GUI is to be able to read information from various sources
simultaneously. I do not want to obscure the window in which I am
writing when I am consulting information in other windows; I need
to see all of them, at once. Lots of text-editors for Windows seem
to deny the purpose of a desktop in this way. Why is this?

Another gripe is the hypertrophied toolbar which takes up valuable screen
real estate. Maybe this can be configured, so that all the Lua-debugging
tools only appear when I want them? As tiny notebooks and handheld
computers become more popular, screen real-estate, and its sensible
economic use according to the wishes of the user, will become more
precious. Perhaps we might even get away from the jumbo-jet-cockpit
syndrome that seems to afflict most Windows applications? Less is more.

--

-- 
Gavin Wraith (gavin <at> wra1th.plus.com)
Home page: http://www.wra1th.plus.com/

Tim Channon | 5 Oct 18:27

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

Gavin Wraith wrote:

> As a dedicated Lua user, and as a newcomer to Windows XP, I have been
> delighted by SciTE, especially its configurability by Lua scripts.
> But the Windows version has a fundamental drawback (I do not know
> if versions on other platforms suffer the same): you can only view
> one file at a time. I say "view", not "open". The whole purpose of a
> desktop GUI is to be able to read information from various sources
> simultaneously. I do not want to obscure the window in which I am
> writing when I am consulting information in other windows; I need
> to see all of them, at once. Lots of text-editors for Windows seem
> to deny the purpose of a desktop in this way. Why is this?

Yes this is an annoyance of scite.

Think it needs to be an MDI application.

Digging, found this, undated

"I'm fairly hostile to MDI as it will require lots of changes and more
complexity. If this is wanted then the best way would be to fork SciTE
so I don't have to worry about it. There are other Scintilla based
projects that are MDI such as Moleskine and Pythonwin."

This is apt too (web mirror of google group)

http://groups.google.com/group/scite-interest/tree/browse_frm/month/2008-05/97292b7c0e3e6654?rnum=81&_done=%2Fgroup%2Fscite-interest%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F2008-05%3F

Not sure what this is
"Thats why i've made a launcher, to arrange two instances of SciTE

(Continue reading)

Mark Meijer | 5 Oct 20:02

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

I never get why some apps don't allow multiple instances of
themselves. There's good reason for some apps, but there are a lot of
apps out there where I just don't see why not, and I guess Scite falls
into that category. Anyone knows why?

2008/10/5 Tim Channon <tc <at> gpsl.net>:
> Gavin Wraith wrote:
>
>> As a dedicated Lua user, and as a newcomer to Windows XP, I have been
>> delighted by SciTE, especially its configurability by Lua scripts.
>> But the Windows version has a fundamental drawback (I do not know
>> if versions on other platforms suffer the same): you can only view
>> one file at a time. I say "view", not "open". The whole purpose of a
>> desktop GUI is to be able to read information from various sources
>> simultaneously. I do not want to obscure the window in which I am
>> writing when I am consulting information in other windows; I need
>> to see all of them, at once. Lots of text-editors for Windows seem
>> to deny the purpose of a desktop in this way. Why is this?
>
> Yes this is an annoyance of scite.
>
> Think it needs to be an MDI application.
>
> Digging, found this, undated
>
> "I'm fairly hostile to MDI as it will require lots of changes and more
> complexity. If this is wanted then the best way would be to fork SciTE
> so I don't have to worry about it. There are other Scintilla based
> projects that are MDI such as Moleskine and Pythonwin."
>

(Continue reading)

Mark Meijer | 5 Oct 20:05

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

Hm, now that I mention it, I think Scite *does* allow multiple
instances of itself, isn't that right? If so, that should solve OP's
problem.

2008/10/5 Mark Meijer <meijer78 <at> gmail.com>:
> I never get why some apps don't allow multiple instances of
> themselves. There's good reason for some apps, but there are a lot of
> apps out there where I just don't see why not, and I guess Scite falls
> into that category. Anyone knows why?
>
>
> 2008/10/5 Tim Channon <tc <at> gpsl.net>:
>> Gavin Wraith wrote:
>>
>>> As a dedicated Lua user, and as a newcomer to Windows XP, I have been
>>> delighted by SciTE, especially its configurability by Lua scripts.
>>> But the Windows version has a fundamental drawback (I do not know
>>> if versions on other platforms suffer the same): you can only view
>>> one file at a time. I say "view", not "open". The whole purpose of a
>>> desktop GUI is to be able to read information from various sources
>>> simultaneously. I do not want to obscure the window in which I am
>>> writing when I am consulting information in other windows; I need
>>> to see all of them, at once. Lots of text-editors for Windows seem
>>> to deny the purpose of a desktop in this way. Why is this?
>>
>> Yes this is an annoyance of scite.
>>
>> Think it needs to be an MDI application.
>>
>> Digging, found this, undated

(Continue reading)

Tim Channon | 5 Oct 20:59

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

Mark Meijer wrote:
> Hm, now that I mention it, I think Scite *does* allow multiple
> instances of itself, isn't that right? If so, that should solve OP's
> problem.

Multiple instances of itself yes of course but _that is not the problem_

Try this, open two instances and some app, web browser will do.

Copy some text from the browser to scite, no problem.

Now check what is showing in the other copy... oh dear it is underneath,
put on top.

Now check something on the browser which is now on top of both instances.

It is an ergonomic problem. You need to work both copies together.

A workaround might be possible if Windows local messaging can be used.
If A goes on top it messages B to do the same. Would need a little more
logic about maximise etc. but that would do,

Gavin Wraith | 5 Oct 22:11

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

In message <48E90E88.30705 <at> gpsl.net> you wrote:

> Mark Meijer wrote:
> > Hm, now that I mention it, I think Scite *does* allow multiple
> > instances of itself, isn't that right? If so, that should solve OP's
> > problem.
>
> Multiple instances of itself yes of course but _that is not the problem_
>
> Try this, open two instances and some app, web browser will do.
>
> Copy some text from the browser to scite, no problem.
>
> Now check what is showing in the other copy... oh dear it is underneath,
> put on top.
>
> Now check something on the browser which is now on top of both instances.
>
> It is an ergonomic problem. You need to work both copies together.
>
> A workaround might be possible if Windows local messaging can be used.
> If A goes on top it messages B to do the same. Would need a little more
> logic about maximise etc. but that would do,

I do not understand the problem. How is this different from having
any 3-object stack of windows?

The single most exasperating feature of Windows is that it seems to
conflate the notions 'pane has input focus' with 'pane is on top of
stack'.

(Continue reading)

Tim Channon | 6 Oct 02:12

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

Gavin Wraith wrote:

> Can Windows not be configured so that I can continue to do things
> this way?

Some changes can be made but not something I know about.

Tomasz Sterna | 8 Oct 16:31

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

On nie, 2008-10-05 at 21:11 +0100, Gavin Wraith wrote:
> I often
> need to do something in an exposed part of a pane which is elsewhere
> obscured by panes higher up the stack, and I certainly do not want
> it jumping up to the top and obscuring stuff that I need to see. I
> often find it useful to drag panes beneath other panes.
> Can Windows not be configured so that I can continue to do things
> this way?

Yes.
Get TweakUI from download.microsoft.com and configure "Focus follows
mouse".

steve donovan | 6 Oct 08:40

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 8:59 PM, Tim Channon <tc <at> gpsl.net> wrote:
> A workaround might be possible if Windows local messaging can be used.
> If A goes on top it messages B to do the same. Would need a little more
> logic about maximise etc. but that would do,

This would not actually be too difficult, since the Lua subsystem can
load suitable extensions. No source code changes required.

As for the toolbar, I feel ambivalent about it, but View|Toolbar is a
_toggle_ ;)

Neil (Scintilla) Hodgson wants to keep SciTE as straightforward as
possible, and this conservative policy has worked out well.

steve d.

KHMan | 5 Oct 18:49

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

Gavin Wraith wrote:
> I apologize if this is the wrong forum for this post - it should
> be the SciTE interest group, but that involves joining a Google
> group, something that I have so far managed to avoid.

You should move the OT issues to scite-interest on Google Groups. 
We're moderating membership and new postings there, so it should 
be spam-free.

> As a dedicated Lua user, and as a newcomer to Windows XP, I have been
> delighted by SciTE, especially its configurability by Lua scripts.
> But the Windows version has a fundamental drawback (I do not know
> if versions on other platforms suffer the same): you can only view
> one file at a time. [snip] Lots of text-editors for Windows seem
> to deny the purpose of a desktop in this way. Why is this?

[OT] I use VirtuaWin, then arrange multiple instances on the 
desktop. GTK+ SciTE is tabbed too.

--

-- 
Cheers,
Kein-Hong Man (esq.)
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

Philippe Lhoste | 6 Oct 11:44

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

On 05/10/2008 13:54, Gavin Wraith wrote:
> But the Windows version has a fundamental drawback (I do not know
> if versions on other platforms suffer the same): you can only view
> one file at a time. I say "view", not "open".

Indeed, Scintilla allows multiple views on the same document (some editors uses this 
feature) but Neil never felt the need to implement this on SciTE (he prefers having 
several instances) and nobody else provided that either.
Sometime I wish to have it, but I workaround this with multiple instances and bookmarks...

> Another gripe is the hypertrophied toolbar which takes up valuable screen
> real estate.

What toolbar? I haven't seen it in years... :-P

toolbar.visible=0

On 05/10/2008 18:27, Tim Channon wrote:
 > Think it needs to be an MDI application.

You are kidding, right? MDI is totally out of fashion nowadays! :-D
Even Microsoft dropped it. And I never liked it anyway.
MS' choice is to multiply the instances in the task bar, which is a bad choice IMO.
SciTE's choice is to use a tabbed interface (or multiple instances if we want, too), which 
is the right thing, but we could have used a split window too, with views either on the 
same document (other place) or on another document.

Ah, this is really OT, I fear.

--

--

(Continue reading)

Gavin Wraith | 6 Oct 13:09

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

In message <gccman$gug$1 <at> ger.gmane.org> you wrote:

> On 05/10/2008 13:54, Gavin Wraith wrote:
> > But the Windows version has a fundamental drawback (I do not know
> > if versions on other platforms suffer the same): you can only view
> > one file at a time. I say "view", not "open".
>
> Indeed, Scintilla allows multiple views on the same document
> (some editors use this feature) but Neil never felt the need to
> implement this on SciTE (he prefers having several instances) and
> nobody else provided that either.
> Sometime I wish to have it, but I workaround this with multiple instances
> and bookmarks...

Well, I do too, now that I know how to set
   check.if.already.open=0

> > Another gripe is the hypertrophied toolbar which takes up
> > valuable screen real estate.
>
> What toolbar? I haven't seen it in years... :-P
>
> toolbar.visible=0

Ah, thanks.

> You are kidding, right? MDI is totally out of fashion nowadays! :-D

Too bad for fashion. I often need to have four or five documents open
at once while I construct another. I like to place them where I want

(Continue reading)

Mark Meijer | 6 Oct 21:09

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

Split screen may be more limited than MDI, but personaly I think MDI
is more limited than multiple instances, in terms of organizing them
on screen and having windows from other apps among them as well. At
least in cases where all views of the MDI app have to reside within
the bounds of a single "master" frame. I generally don't like that at
all.

2008/10/6 Gavin Wraith <gavin <at> wra1th.plus.com>:
> In message <gccman$gug$1 <at> ger.gmane.org> you wrote:
>
>> On 05/10/2008 13:54, Gavin Wraith wrote:
>> > But the Windows version has a fundamental drawback (I do not know
>> > if versions on other platforms suffer the same): you can only view
>> > one file at a time. I say "view", not "open".
>>
>> Indeed, Scintilla allows multiple views on the same document
>> (some editors use this feature) but Neil never felt the need to
>> implement this on SciTE (he prefers having several instances) and
>> nobody else provided that either.
>> Sometime I wish to have it, but I workaround this with multiple instances
>> and bookmarks...
>
> Well, I do too, now that I know how to set
>   check.if.already.open=0
>
>> > Another gripe is the hypertrophied toolbar which takes up
>> > valuable screen real estate.
>>
>> What toolbar? I haven't seen it in years... :-P
>>

(Continue reading)

Gavin Wraith | 6 Oct 23:28

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

In message <84119db80810061209h4a2b489ft5955cbeea96698f <at> mail.gmail.com>
you wrote:

> Split screen may be more limited than MDI, but personaly I think MDI
> is more limited than multiple instances, in terms of organizing them
> on screen and having windows from other apps among them as well. At
> least in cases where all views of the MDI app have to reside within
> the bounds of a single "master" frame. I generally don't like that at
> all.

I too dislike "master" frames. I have only seen them on Windows and I do not
understand their raison d'estre.

--

-- 
Gavin Wraith (gavin <at> wra1th.plus.com)
Home page: http://www.wra1th.plus.com/

Javier Guerra | 6 Oct 23:44

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 4:28 PM, Gavin Wraith <gavin <at> wra1th.plus.com> wrote:
> I too dislike "master" frames. I have only seen them on Windows and I do not
> understand their raison d'estre.

they're there to effectively make you single-task, lowering the
pressure on the memory manager and making windows a little less
crash-prone.

i cringe my teeth every time somebody asks for this mind limitation to
be used instead of individual windows.

--

-- 
Javier

Stefan Sandberg | 8 Oct 15:43

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

Javier Guerra wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 4:28 PM, Gavin Wraith <gavin <at> wra1th.plus.com> wrote:
>   
>> I too dislike "master" frames. I have only seen them on Windows and I do not
>> understand their raison d'estre.
>>     
>
> they're there to effectively make you single-task, lowering the
> pressure on the memory manager and making windows a little less
> crash-prone.
>
> i cringe my teeth every time somebody asks for this mind limitation to
> be used instead of individual windows.
>
>   
..and my teeth fall out when I read people who otherwise come across as 
smart say stupid & childish nonsense..

Just drop this thread already, it has nothing to do with lua at all at 
this point..

Eric Tetz | 7 Oct 02:37

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

Gavin Wraith <gavin <at> wra1th.plus.com> wrote:
> Why 'split'? You might want to place multiple views anywhere on the screen.
> Why be limited to putting them next to each other?

You're splitting the view of *one window*. If you really need to have
two text windows with something else between them (What? A calculator?
Tetris? Why?) then you can open two windows (i.e. instances).

Within a given window, a split allows you to partition screen real
estate in such a way that growing/shrinking one view automatically
grows/shrinks all neighboring windows. That's how Brief did it, and
how Vim does it, and I can't stand MDI applications that work any
other way. If I decide to, say, shrink the amount of space I give to
one window, I don't want to do N additional resize operations to give
the reclaimed space to neighboring windows (left, right, above,
below).

In Vim, you have multiple tabs, too, so you can (1) have top level
windows, arraigned however you want, (2) within those windows, you can
partition the space however you want, such that reallocating space to
one window will reclaim/return space to neighboring windows, (3) you
can have multiple tabs, each providing a different split partitioning
of the same window.

In short, splits are hugely valuable, though not many applications do
them right (Brief sure did; better then Vim, in fact).

Gavin Wraith | 7 Oct 10:39

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

In message <5ac4e42f0810061737m45b34a96g58cf250c0f47af8d <at> mail.gmail.com> you wrote:

> Gavin Wraith <gavin <at> wra1th.plus.com> wrote:
> > Why 'split'? You might want to place multiple views anywhere on the screen.
> > Why be limited to putting them next to each other?
>
> You're splitting the view of *one window*. If you really need to have
> two text windows with something else between them (What? A calculator?
> Tetris? Why?) then you can open two windows (i.e. instances).

Well then, let us say you are writing a learned article - big
window in the middle. You need to keep open the letter from the editor
of the journal you are submitting it to because there are lots of
instructions you need to keep in mind - little window, top right.
You are making a footnote, that will appear somewhere in the
document - another little window, top left. There is a reference
to previous work you need to consult - medium size window - middle
left. The work is in a foreign language, so a dictionary has to
be consulted - a scrolling window, middle right. .... You get my drift?
Scenarios can be multiplied to infinity.

What is Tetris?

--

-- 
Gavin Wraith (gavin <at> wra1th.plus.com)
Home page: http://www.wra1th.plus.com/

Jerome Vuarand | 7 Oct 11:35

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

2008/10/7 Gavin Wraith <gavin <at> wra1th.plus.com>:
> In message <5ac4e42f0810061737m45b34a96g58cf250c0f47af8d <at> mail.gmail.com> you wrote:
>
>> Gavin Wraith <gavin <at> wra1th.plus.com> wrote:
>> > Why 'split'? You might want to place multiple views anywhere on the screen.
>> > Why be limited to putting them next to each other?
>>
>> You're splitting the view of *one window*. If you really need to have
>> two text windows with something else between them (What? A calculator?
>> Tetris? Why?) then you can open two windows (i.e. instances).
>
> Well then, let us say you are writing a learned article - big
> window in the middle. You need to keep open the letter from the editor
> of the journal you are submitting it to because there are lots of
> instructions you need to keep in mind - little window, top right.
> You are making a footnote, that will appear somewhere in the
> document - another little window, top left. There is a reference
> to previous work you need to consult - medium size window - middle
> left. The work is in a foreign language, so a dictionary has to
> be consulted - a scrolling window, middle right. .... You get my drift?
> Scenarios can be multiplied to infinity.

What you need is not a new feature in scite, it's a better window
manager. There are many for X, and a few replacement shells for
Windows:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_shell_replacement

> What is Tetris?

(Continue reading)

Petsagourakis George | 6 Oct 19:45

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

Try Notepad++ its Scintilla-based,...

http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net/uk/download.php

Philippe Lhoste | 7 Oct 13:48

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

On 06/10/2008 19:45, Petsagourakis George wrote:
> Try Notepad++ its Scintilla-based,...

AFAIK, it doesn't has Lua scripting... Which is what Gavin wanted initially... So 
Notepad++, despite its qualities, is definitively off-topic here! 

--

-- 
Philippe Lhoste
--  (near) Paris -- France
--  http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --

Petsagourakis George | 8 Oct 09:08

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

Yep,... hadn't noticed Gavin required the editor being Lua-scriptable.

Gavin Wraith | 8 Oct 11:54

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

In message <loom.20081008T070626-775 <at> post.gmane.org> you wrote:

> Yep,... hadn't noticed Gavin required the editor being Lua-scriptable.

It is probably long past the time when I should apologize for
starting hares running way out of LuaList's forest.

In an ideal world everything should be Lua-scriptable, especially
the window and file manager.

--

-- 
Gavin Wraith (gavin <at> wra1th.plus.com)
Home page: http://www.wra1th.plus.com/

mitchell | 8 Oct 16:29

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

Hi,

> In an ideal world everything should be Lua-scriptable, especially
> the window and file manager.

Textadept (http://caladbolg.net/textadept) is fully Lua scriptable: window, file
manager, everything.

-Mitchell;

Petsagourakis George | 8 Oct 19:01

Re: SciTE, GUIs, desktop real estate

Release Candidate 6 stage and still a bit buggy,.. I do like what I see though.
Anybody trying should get the GTK+ Runtime Environment installed from here
http://bit.ly/39P536

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