Brad Fuller | 7 Jul 04:24 2006

Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote

Markus Gaelli wrote:

On Jul 7, 2006, at 12:46 AM, Brad Fuller wrote:
Serge Stinckwich wrote:
There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his
web log here : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=167318

this is sad to read:

Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or
Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in Python will
have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one. Also,
the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping that a
Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears expedient.
(At the Shuttleworth summit in April
<http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> I believe
Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely simple
graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics accelerator
cards because of its platform-independent architecture. Python on the
other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for example.)

--brad
sonaural



Hi folks,

let's be proud that Smalltalk was indispensable to come up with Etoys and let us accept the challenge.

I googled for python IDEs today and found
http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments
and there the most up to date IDE shootout of
http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html
and
http://spyced.blogspot.com/2006/02/pycon-python-ide-review.html

I have to say that I was not impressed.

The IDEs were either not free: Wing, Komodo and in the future PyDev
based on Qt (Eric4)
had no liberal license (Gnu! ): SPE
couldn't eat their own dog food as they were based on Java: PyDev
or didn't have convincing screenshots: DrPython

Alan, which python IDE would you suggest us to widen our perspectives for ourselves, the job market and for helping to make the world a better place - if it is not Squeak?

I have no idea if Alan actually said that, there are not quotes. And, Alan can speak for himself. However(!), if the essence of the paraphrase is right, I think he's suggesting that Python can benefit from the work that Smalltalk has pioneered. But, I don't know if he's referring to the IDE, eToys, or what when he says "environment"
-- brad sonaural

Alan Kay | 7 Jul 06:45 2006

"Children First!" means ...

... Children First!

(It doesn't mean Squeak First, or Python or Ruby First.)

Cheers,

Alan

At 07:24 PM 7/6/2006, Brad Fuller wrote:
Markus Gaelli wrote:

On Jul 7, 2006, at 12:46 AM, Brad Fuller wrote:
Serge Stinckwich wrote:
There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his
web log here : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=167318
this is sad to read:

Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or
Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in Python will
have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one. Also,
the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping that a
Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears expedient.
(At the Shuttleworth summit in April
<http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> I believe
Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely simple
graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics accelerator
cards because of its platform-independent architecture. Python on the
other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for example.)

--brad
sonaural


Hi folks,

let's be proud that Smalltalk was indispensable to come up with Etoys and let us accept the challenge.

I googled for python IDEs today and found
http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments
and there the most up to date IDE shootout of
http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html
and
http://spyced.blogspot.com/2006/02/pycon-python-ide-review.html

I have to say that I was not impressed.

The IDEs were either not free: Wing, Komodo and in the future PyDev
based on Qt (Eric4)
had no liberal license (Gnu! ): SPE
couldn't eat their own dog food as they were based on Java: PyDev
or didn't have convincing screenshots: DrPython

Alan, which python IDE would you suggest us to widen our perspectives for ourselves, the job market and for helping to make the world a better place - if it is not Squeak?
I have no idea if Alan actually said that, there are not quotes. And, Alan can speak for himself. However(!), if the essence of the paraphrase is right, I think he's suggesting that Python can benefit from the work that Smalltalk has pioneered. But, I don't know if he's referring to the IDE, eToys, or what when he says "environment"

-- brad sonaural

Andreas Raab | 7 Jul 09:16 2006
Picon
Picon

Re: "Children First!" means ...

Right. I *fully* support Alan's efforts to get these communities 
involved in the educational efforts - if we compete then the kids will 
ultimately win. If that is in Squeak or in Python or in Ruby, who cares?

Cheers,
   - Andreas

Alan Kay wrote:
> ... Children First!
> 
> (It doesn't mean Squeak First, or Python or Ruby First.)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan
> 
> At 07:24 PM 7/6/2006, Brad Fuller wrote:
>> Markus Gaelli wrote:
>>>
>>> On Jul 7, 2006, at 12:46 AM, Brad Fuller wrote:
>>>> Serge Stinckwich wrote:
>>>>> There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his
>>>>> web log here : 
>>>>> http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=167318
>>>> this is sad to read:
>>>>
>>>> Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or
>>>> Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in Python will
>>>> have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one. Also,
>>>> the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping that a
>>>> Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears expedient.
>>>> (At the Shuttleworth summit in April
>>>> < 
>>>>
<http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162>http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> 
>>>> <http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> I believe
>>>> Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely simple
>>>> graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics accelerator
>>>> cards because of its platform-independent architecture. Python on the
>>>> other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for example.)
>>>>
>>>> --brad
>>>> sonaural
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> let's be proud that Smalltalk was indispensable to come up with Etoys 
>>> and let us accept the challenge.
>>>
>>> I googled for python IDEs today and found
>>> http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments
>>> and there the most up to date IDE shootout of
>>> http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html
>>> and
>>> http://spyced.blogspot.com/2006/02/pycon-python-ide-review.html
>>>
>>> I have to say that I was not impressed.
>>>
>>> The IDEs were either not free: Wing, Komodo and in the future PyDev
>>> based on Qt (Eric4)
>>> had no liberal license (Gnu! ): SPE
>>> couldn't eat their own dog food as they were based on Java: PyDev
>>> or didn't have convincing screenshots: DrPython
>>>
>>> Alan, which python IDE would you suggest us to widen our perspectives 
>>> for ourselves, the job market and for helping to make the world a 
>>> better place - if it is not Squeak?
>> I have no idea if Alan actually said that, there are not quotes. And, 
>> Alan can speak for himself. However(!), if the essence of the 
>> paraphrase is right, I think he's suggesting that Python can benefit 
>> from the work that Smalltalk has pioneered. But, I don't know if he's 
>> referring to the IDE, eToys, or what when he says "environment"
>>
>> -- 
>> brad
>> sonaural
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 

Hans N Beck | 7 Jul 19:46 2006
Picon

Re: "Children First!" means ...

Hi,

Am 07.07.2006 um 09:16 schrieb Andreas Raab:

> Right. I *fully* support Alan's efforts to get these communities  
> involved in the educational efforts - if we compete then the kids  
> will ultimately win. If that is in Squeak or in Python or in Ruby,  
> who cares?
>
+1

We are always at the beginning of teaching knowledge, pedagogics as  
didactics. No one can assume the Squeak is the last step here,  
althought it is a very important one :-) Would be interesting to see,  
how Alan's experience in using Squeak may  influence python or even  
other things ;-)

Regards

Hans

> Cheers,
>   - Andreas
>
> Alan Kay wrote:
>> ... Children First!
>> (It doesn't mean Squeak First, or Python or Ruby First.)
>> Cheers,
>> Alan
>> At 07:24 PM 7/6/2006, Brad Fuller wrote:
>>> Markus Gaelli wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 7, 2006, at 12:46 AM, Brad Fuller wrote:
>>>>> Serge Stinckwich wrote:
>>>>>> There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk  
>>>>>> in his
>>>>>> web log here : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp? 
>>>>>> thread=167318
>>>>> this is sad to read:
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than  
>>>>> Smalltalk or
>>>>> Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in  
>>>>> Python will
>>>>> have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak  
>>>>> one. Also,
>>>>> the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course  
>>>>> hoping that a
>>>>> Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears  
>>>>> expedient.
>>>>> (At the Shuttleworth summit in April
>>>>> < <http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp? 
>>>>> thread=156162>http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp? 
>>>>> thread=156162> <http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp? 
>>>>> thread=156162> I believe
>>>>> Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely  
>>>>> simple
>>>>> graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics  
>>>>> accelerator
>>>>> cards because of its platform-independent architecture. Python  
>>>>> on the
>>>>> other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for  
>>>>> example.)
>>>>>
>>>>> --brad
>>>>> sonaural
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>
>>>> let's be proud that Smalltalk was indispensable to come up with  
>>>> Etoys and let us accept the challenge.
>>>>
>>>> I googled for python IDEs today and found
>>>> http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments
>>>> and there the most up to date IDE shootout of
>>>> http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html
>>>> and
>>>> http://spyced.blogspot.com/2006/02/pycon-python-ide-review.html
>>>>
>>>> I have to say that I was not impressed.
>>>>
>>>> The IDEs were either not free: Wing, Komodo and in the future PyDev
>>>> based on Qt (Eric4)
>>>> had no liberal license (Gnu! ): SPE
>>>> couldn't eat their own dog food as they were based on Java: PyDev
>>>> or didn't have convincing screenshots: DrPython
>>>>
>>>> Alan, which python IDE would you suggest us to widen our  
>>>> perspectives for ourselves, the job market and for helping to  
>>>> make the world a better place - if it is not Squeak?
>>> I have no idea if Alan actually said that, there are not quotes.  
>>> And, Alan can speak for himself. However(!), if the essence of  
>>> the paraphrase is right, I think he's suggesting that Python can  
>>> benefit from the work that Smalltalk has pioneered. But, I don't  
>>> know if he's referring to the IDE, eToys, or what when he says  
>>> "environment"
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> brad
>>> sonaural
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> ---
>
>

Xinyu Liu | 18 Jul 04:13 2006
Picon

Re: "Children First!" means ...

We can also read this report from Mr. Guido Van Rossum's Chinese Blog
at:
http://blog.csdn.net/gvanrossum/archive/2006/07/10/898557.aspx

So I post some of our comments on it. Yes, the most important thing
is "Children first", no matter what kind of  means.

Regards

Liu

On 7/8/06, Hans N Beck <hnbeck <at> t-online.de> wrote:
Hi,

Am 07.07.2006 um 09:16 schrieb Andreas Raab:

> Right. I *fully* support Alan's efforts to get these communities
> involved in the educational efforts - if we compete then the kids
> will ultimately win. If that is in Squeak or in Python or in Ruby,
> who cares?
>
+1

We are always at the beginning of teaching knowledge, pedagogics as
didactics. No one can assume the Squeak is the last step here,
althought it is a very important one :-) Would be interesting to see,
how Alan's experience in using Squeak may  influence python or even
other things ;-)


Regards

Hans

> Cheers,
>   - Andreas
>
> Alan Kay wrote:
>> ... Children First!
>> (It doesn't mean Squeak First, or Python or Ruby First.)
>> Cheers,
>> Alan
>> At 07:24 PM 7/6/2006, Brad Fuller wrote:
>>> Markus Gaelli wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 7, 2006, at 12:46 AM, Brad Fuller wrote:
>>>>> Serge Stinckwich wrote:
>>>>>> There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk
>>>>>> in his
>>>>>> web log here : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?
>>>>>> thread=167318
>>>>> this is sad to read:
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than
>>>>> Smalltalk or
>>>>> Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in
>>>>> Python will
>>>>> have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak
>>>>> one. Also,
>>>>> the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course
>>>>> hoping that a
>>>>> Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears
>>>>> expedient.
>>>>> (At the Shuttleworth summit in April
>>>>> < <http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp ?
>>>>> thread=156162>http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?
>>>>> thread=156162> < http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?
>>>>> thread=156162> I believe
>>>>> Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely
>>>>> simple
>>>>> graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics
>>>>> accelerator
>>>>> cards because of its platform-independent architecture. Python
>>>>> on the
>>>>> other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for
>>>>> example.)
>>>>>
>>>>> --brad
>>>>> sonaural
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>
>>>> let's be proud that Smalltalk was indispensable to come up with
>>>> Etoys and let us accept the challenge.
>>>>
>>>> I googled for python IDEs today and found
>>>> http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments
>>>> and there the most up to date IDE shootout of
>>>> http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html
>>>> and
>>>> http://spyced.blogspot.com/2006/02/pycon-python-ide-review.html
>>>>
>>>> I have to say that I was not impressed.
>>>>
>>>> The IDEs were either not free: Wing, Komodo and in the future PyDev
>>>> based on Qt (Eric4)
>>>> had no liberal license (Gnu! ): SPE
>>>> couldn't eat their own dog food as they were based on Java: PyDev
>>>> or didn't have convincing screenshots: DrPython
>>>>
>>>> Alan, which python IDE would you suggest us to widen our
>>>> perspectives for ourselves, the job market and for helping to
>>>> make the world a better place - if it is not Squeak?
>>> I have no idea if Alan actually said that, there are not quotes.
>>> And, Alan can speak for himself. However(!), if the essence of
>>> the paraphrase is right, I think he's suggesting that Python can
>>> benefit from the work that Smalltalk has pioneered. But, I don't
>>> know if he's referring to the IDE, eToys, or what when he says
>>> "environment"
>>>
>>> --
>>> brad
>>> sonaural
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---
>
>




Cees De Groot | 7 Jul 09:29 2006
Picon

Re: "Children First!" means ...

On 7/7/06, Alan Kay <alan.kay <at> squeakland.org> wrote:
>
>  ... Children First!
>
>  (It doesn't mean Squeak First, or Python or Ruby First.)
>
+1

I always feel that these discussions are aboutas fruitful as
discussions about what brand screwdriver to use :-)

Python has a *huge* mindshare, compared to Squeak. If Alan can
leverage that and thereby get better software, that's great.

Markus Gaelli | 7 Jul 10:38 2006
Picon

Re: "Children First!" means ...


On Jul 7, 2006, at 9:29 AM, Cees De Groot wrote:

> On 7/7/06, Alan Kay <alan.kay <at> squeakland.org> wrote:
>>
>>  ... Children First!
>>
>>  (It doesn't mean Squeak First, or Python or Ruby First.)
>>
> +1

+1

>
> I always feel that these discussions are aboutas fruitful as
> discussions about what brand screwdriver to use :-)

-1 ;-) Not for the ones who haven't understood yet, that the screws  
are standard - I did not entirely realize until now, that both the  
snake and the mouse could create, exchange and eat _the same_ dog food.

it is good news to me that the next Etoys version will be more  
language agnostic as it is running in a net environment like a Wiki  
and based on an open standard format.

>
> Python has a *huge* mindshare, compared to Squeak. If Alan can
> leverage that and thereby get better software, that's great.
>

Right.

Cheers,

Markus


Gmane