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Janko Mivšek | 7 Jul 18:23
Gravatar

Choosing the platform for website

Dear all,

I think now a time came to finally choose a platform and to upgrade our 
website. You know, Jun with exams is over and every Squeaker has now a 
time. Holidays? What holidays? ;)

So, we have two proposals on-line:

     Aida/Web/Scribo based: http://squeaksite.aidaweb.si/
     Seaside/Pier based: http://squeak.lukas-renggli.ch/

One is also mine as you know, so I will from now on always declare in 
advance if I speak as a webteam leader or a proposer. Now I'm speaking 
as a team leader. I promise to be as honest as possible.

I propose that the end of July is a deadline to a final decision. In the 
meantime both contenders should:

   - prepare a replica of current website with all existing features
     and the same design
   - prepare a Contact Us solution to prevent spam

Any suggestions, any comments?

Best regards
Janko
Web team leader
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Igor Stasenko | 7 Jul 19:15

Fwd: [Webteam] Choosing the platform for website

Janko, i forwarded your message to squeak-dev, to be more visible to public :)

----------------
Dear all,

I think now a time came to finally choose a platform and to upgrade
our website. You know, Jun with exams is over and every Squeaker has
now a time. Holidays? What holidays? ;)

So, we have two proposals on-line:

   Aida/Web/Scribo based: http://squeaksite.aidaweb.si/
   Seaside/Pier based: http://squeak.lukas-renggli.ch/

One is also mine as you know, so I will from now on always declare in
advance if I speak as a webteam leader or a proposer. Now I'm speaking
as a team leader. I promise to be as honest as possible.

I propose that the end of July is a deadline to a final decision. In
the meantime both contenders should:

 - prepare a replica of current website with all existing features
   and the same design
 - prepare a Contact Us solution to prevent spam

Any suggestions, any comments?

Best regards
Janko
Web team leader
(Continue reading)

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Giuseppe Luigi Punzi Ruiz | 7 Jul 19:46

Re: Fwd: [Webteam] Choosing the platform for website

I would like other, and new fresh design, but is only a personal  
opinion.

El 07/07/2008, a las 19:15, Igor Stasenko escribió:

> Janko, i forwarded your message to squeak-dev, to be more visible to  
> public :)
>
> ----------------
> Dear all,
>
> I think now a time came to finally choose a platform and to upgrade
> our website. You know, Jun with exams is over and every Squeaker has
> now a time. Holidays? What holidays? ;)
>
> So, we have two proposals on-line:
>
>   Aida/Web/Scribo based: http://squeaksite.aidaweb.si/
>   Seaside/Pier based: http://squeak.lukas-renggli.ch/
>
> One is also mine as you know, so I will from now on always declare in
> advance if I speak as a webteam leader or a proposer. Now I'm speaking
> as a team leader. I promise to be as honest as possible.
>
> I propose that the end of July is a deadline to a final decision. In
> the meantime both contenders should:
>
> - prepare a replica of current website with all existing features
>   and the same design
> - prepare a Contact Us solution to prevent spam
(Continue reading)

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Igor Stasenko | 7 Jul 19:59

Re: Fwd: [Webteam] Choosing the platform for website

2008/7/7 Giuseppe Luigi Punzi Ruiz <glpunzi <at> lordzealon.com>:
> I would like other, and new fresh design, but is only a personal opinion.
>
Design will be the next stage AFTER we choose new platform.

>
> El 07/07/2008, a las 19:15, Igor Stasenko escribió:
>
>> Janko, i forwarded your message to squeak-dev, to be more visible to
>> public :)
>>
>> ----------------
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I think now a time came to finally choose a platform and to upgrade
>> our website. You know, Jun with exams is over and every Squeaker has
>> now a time. Holidays? What holidays? ;)
>>
>> So, we have two proposals on-line:
>>
>>  Aida/Web/Scribo based: http://squeaksite.aidaweb.si/
>>  Seaside/Pier based: http://squeak.lukas-renggli.ch/
>>
>> One is also mine as you know, so I will from now on always declare in
>> advance if I speak as a webteam leader or a proposer. Now I'm speaking
>> as a team leader. I promise to be as honest as possible.
>>
>> I propose that the end of July is a deadline to a final decision. In
>> the meantime both contenders should:
>>
(Continue reading)

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Wilkes Joiner | 7 Jul 20:12
Gravatar

Re: Fwd: [Webteam] Choosing the platform for website

Can the source or the images be made available?  Looking at the sites,
we shouldn't notice much of a difference, right?

- Wilkes

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 12:15 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> Janko, i forwarded your message to squeak-dev, to be more visible to public :)
>
> ----------------
> Dear all,
>
> I think now a time came to finally choose a platform and to upgrade
> our website. You know, Jun with exams is over and every Squeaker has
> now a time. Holidays? What holidays? ;)
>
> So, we have two proposals on-line:
>
>   Aida/Web/Scribo based: http://squeaksite.aidaweb.si/
>   Seaside/Pier based: http://squeak.lukas-renggli.ch/
>
> One is also mine as you know, so I will from now on always declare in
> advance if I speak as a webteam leader or a proposer. Now I'm speaking
> as a team leader. I promise to be as honest as possible.
>
> I propose that the end of July is a deadline to a final decision. In
> the meantime both contenders should:
>
>  - prepare a replica of current website with all existing features
>   and the same design
>  - prepare a Contact Us solution to prevent spam
(Continue reading)

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Lukas Renggli | 7 Jul 20:49

Re: Fwd: [Webteam] Choosing the platform for website

> Can the source or the images be made available?  Looking at the sites,
>  we shouldn't notice much of a difference, right?

I took the site I originally proposed offline, because I am not going
to participate in a competition where the judge is one of the
participants. You can get a snapshot of the server directory here. Do
with it whatever you like.

     http://www.lukas-renggli.ch/dropbox/squeak.lukas-renggli.ch.zip (24 MB)

This is essentially an out of the box 3.9 image, with Pier and a
couple of extensions loaded from SqueakMap. Check-out the archive for
additional discussion and passwords.

Lukas

--

-- 
Lukas Renggli
http://www.lukas-renggli.ch
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Janko Mivšek | 7 Jul 20:58
Gravatar

Re: Fwd: [Webteam] Choosing the platform for website

Hi Wilkes,

Wilkes Joiner wrote:
> Can the source or the images be made available?  Looking at the sites,
> we shouldn't notice much of a difference, right?

As a proposer of Scribo based solution here is on-line view of the image 
with demo, with the help of the experimental web code browser:

http://squeaksite.aidaweb.si/SqueakSite/SqueakSite-Core.html
http://squeaksite.aidaweb.si/SqueakSite/SqueakSite-App.html

or whole image:

http://squeaksite.aidaweb.si/browse.html

Here are all needed packages, in reverse order to load:

   SqueakSite: http://mc.bioskop.fr/SqueakSite.html
   Scribo: http://mc.bioskop.fr/Scribo.html
   Aida: http://mc.bioskop.fr/Aida.html
   Swazoo: http://mc.bioskop.fr/Swazoo.html
   Sport http://mc.bioskop.fr/Sport.html

Because Aida/Scribo is near beta, all those packages are in development 
repository and will be put on SqueakSource when released in beta. This 
will happen this month.

Best regards
Janko
(Continue reading)

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tim Rowledge | 7 Jul 20:19

Re: Fwd: [Webteam] Choosing the platform for website

OK. I have to admit to a little puzzlement here. Why does it  
particularly matter what the platform for the website is?

It's not (currently) a particularly complex site. Hell, it could  
almost certainly be done in RapidWeaver! What matters to those of us  
outside the implementation and care of the site is *the content*.  
Unless someone is proposing some staggeringly interesting form of  
content that can only be done on one particular platform... who cares?

I'm going to claim some requirements here; I'm sure others will add  
more.

platform issues -
a) must work with all reasonably common browsers. duh. I mean, nobody  
deliberately tries to exclude viewers, right?
b) must be reasonably easy to work with as a content maker - it's  
going to be run by volunteers and you sholdn'tmake thier life more  
difficult than it already is
c) must be sensibly secure from crackers. we don't want people  
scrawling pro-java trash all over the front page
d) must be something that has a plausible lifetime so we don't have to  
change horses
content issues -
e) we need to have a clean and attractive design that makes it really  
easy for visitors to work out what on earth the site is about
f) we need to have a really easy way for regular visitors to see what  
has changed
g) need a good collection of contemporary screenshots and demo movies  
and tutorials
h) need a simple way to get to maillist archives in some nicely
(Continue reading)

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Igor Stasenko | 7 Jul 20:54

Re: Fwd: [Webteam] Choosing the platform for website

2008/7/7 tim Rowledge <tim <at> rowledge.org>:
> OK. I have to admit to a little puzzlement here. Why does it particularly
> matter what the platform for the website is?
>
+1 Its not matter.

> It's not (currently) a particularly complex site. Hell, it could almost
> certainly be done in RapidWeaver! What matters to those of us outside the
> implementation and care of the site is *the content*. Unless someone is
> proposing some staggeringly interesting form of content that can only be
> done on one particular platform... who cares?
>
> I'm going to claim some requirements here; I'm sure others will add more.
>
> platform issues -
> a) must work with all reasonably common browsers. duh. I mean, nobody
> deliberately tries to exclude viewers, right?

can't see this as platform issue. Its rather a content issue.
A platform issue can be 'be able to answer 10000000 web requests per second'.

> b) must be reasonably easy to work with as a content maker - it's going to
> be run by volunteers and you sholdn'tmake thier life more difficult than it
> already is
> c) must be sensibly secure from crackers. we don't want people scrawling
> pro-java trash all over the front page
> d) must be something that has a plausible lifetime so we don't have to
> change horses

> content issues -
(Continue reading)

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Janko Mivšek | 7 Jul 21:26
Gravatar

Re: Fwd: [Webteam] Choosing the platform for website

Hi Tim,

tim Rowledge wrote:
> OK. I have to admit to a little puzzlement here. Why does it 
> particularly matter what the platform for the website is?
> 
> It's not (currently) a particularly complex site. Hell, it could almost 
> certainly be done in RapidWeaver! What matters to those of us outside 
> the implementation and care of the site is *the content*. Unless someone 
> is proposing some staggeringly interesting form of content that can only 
> be done on one particular platform... who cares?

We need to upgrade the current website's platform (SmallWiki) because it 
is aging. We need to come to up-to-date platform to be able to satisfy 
the needs like from your list of requirements and more in the future. We 
need to finally solve that Contact Us spaming problem, which eats quite 
some time every day to the webteam. And so on.

Janko
Webteam leader

> 
> I'm going to claim some requirements here; I'm sure others will add more.
> 
> platform issues -
> a) must work with all reasonably common browsers. duh. I mean, nobody 
> deliberately tries to exclude viewers, right?
> b) must be reasonably easy to work with as a content maker - it's going 
> to be run by volunteers and you sholdn'tmake thier life more difficult 
> than it already is
(Continue reading)

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Chris Kassopulo | 7 Jul 22:02

Re: Fwd: [Webteam] Choosing the platform for website

On Mon, 07 Jul 2008 11:19:43 -0700, tim Rowledge wrote:

> h) need a simple way to get to maillist archives in some nicely readable
> way
> i) have run out if points. go for it.
> 
> tim

Greetings,

Stumbled upon this free mail archive site today. Pretty impressive.

Home page:  http://markmail.org/

Search Ruby lists:  http://ruby.markmail.org/search/?q=squeak

How to get listed:  http://markmail.org/docs/feedback.xqy

Chris
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Lukas Renggli | 7 Jul 19:18

Re: Choosing the platform for website

>  One is also mine as you know, so I will from now on always declare in
> advance if I speak as a webteam leader or a proposer. Now I'm speaking as a
> team leader. I promise to be as honest as possible.

Sorry Janko, but what you are doing to the Smalltalk community in the
past few months can't be taken serious. There are other things much
more fun than to play games with you.

--

-- 
Lukas Renggli
http://www.lukas-renggli.ch
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Janko Mivšek | 7 Jul 19:25
Gravatar

Re: Choosing the platform for website

Lukas Renggli wrote:
>>  One is also mine as you know, so I will from now on always declare in
>> advance if I speak as a webteam leader or a proposer. Now I'm speaking as a
>> team leader. I promise to be as honest as possible.
> 
> Sorry Janko, but what you are doing to the Smalltalk community in the
> past few months can't be taken serious. There are other things much
> more fun than to play games with you.

Lukas, please elaborate or even better, stay away of such comments and 
learn to compete as a gentleman!

Janko
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Matthew Fulmer | 7 Jul 23:48
Gravatar

Re: Choosing the platform for website

On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 07:18:12PM +0200, Lukas Renggli wrote:
> >  One is also mine as you know, so I will from now on always declare in
> > advance if I speak as a webteam leader or a proposer. Now I'm speaking as a
> > team leader. I promise to be as honest as possible.
> 
> Sorry Janko, but what you are doing to the Smalltalk community in the
> past few months can't be taken serious. There are other things much
> more fun than to play games with you.

This post seems rude and vague to me, and also makes no sense
from my perspective. I see no games involved, just a desire to
make the website more useful. If that is a game, it is one well
worth playing :)

--

-- 
Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/
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nicolas petton | 8 Jul 01:03

Re: Choosing the platform for website



2008/7/7 Matthew Fulmer <tapplek-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>:
On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 07:18:12PM +0200, Lukas Renggli wrote:
> >  One is also mine as you know, so I will from now on always declare in
> > advance if I speak as a webteam leader or a proposer. Now I'm speaking as a
> > team leader. I promise to be as honest as possible.
>
> Sorry Janko, but what you are doing to the Smalltalk community in the
> past few months can't be taken serious. There are other things much
> more fun than to play games with you.

This post seems rude and vague to me

I agree. 

Nicolas

, and also makes no sense
from my perspective. I see no games involved, just a desire to
make the website more useful. If that is a game, it is one well
worth playing :)


--
Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/



--
Nicolas Petton

http://nico.bioskop.fr 
_______________________________________________
Webteam mailing list
Webteam@...
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/webteam
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Igor Stasenko | 8 Jul 02:47

Re: Choosing the platform for website

Guys , if you not come to conclusion for this time, i will propose to
solve this by board.
And proposal will be following: roll a coin.
 - Heads for Seaside, Tails for Aida

or if it hurts someone's feelings, first we will roll a coin, which
platform will be Heads and which Tails.

--

-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
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Janko Mivšek | 8 Jul 11:41
Gravatar

Re: Choosing the platform for website

Igor Stasenko wrote:
> Guys , if you not come to conclusion for this time, i will propose to
> solve this by board.
> And proposal will be following: roll a coin.
>  - Heads for Seaside, Tails for Aida
> 
> or if it hurts someone's feelings, first we will roll a coin, which
> platform will be Heads and which Tails.

Speaking as a proposer: it seems that you won't need it. Unfortunately 
the other contender seems to quit and now you won't be able to see 
strenghts and deficiencies of both proposals as good as you would in a 
good and fair competition. Unfortunately.

It was my pleasure to show all what Aida/Scribo is able to do through 
the competition, well, ok, we will continue and prepare the site to the 
end anyway.

Janko

--

-- 
Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
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Matthew Fulmer | 18 Jul 02:05
Gravatar

Re: Choosing the platform for website

On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 06:24:56PM +0200, Janko Miv??ek wrote:
> So, we have two proposals on-line:
> 
>      Aida/Web/Scribo based: http://squeaksite.aidaweb.si/
>      Seaside/Pier based: http://squeak.lukas-renggli.ch/

Here is how I stand on this issue:

Usability:

I have been using Swiki and SmallWiki for a while (1.5 years),
and I find them very easy to use. Pier is thus also very easy
for me to use, and it is also nicely documented. 

>From what I have seen of Scribo, it is not intended for people
who have ever used a wiki before, but for business people who
live and breathe word, and cannot imagine a markup language. I
don't like it's rich text editor, and much prefer a simple wiki
markup system, regardless of syntax. I also find it's method of
adding new pages extremely un-intuitive, and I also cannot
figure out how to add non-document resources to the website,
which is as simple as a drop-down box in pier (In the add
command, you choose what you want to create. Default choice is a
wiki page)

Familiarity:

One big thing that Scribo has going for it is that it is under
active development, and that at least one of the developers
(especially Janko) is always on IRC to answer questions and
listen to suggestions.

Lukas is not, but there are other pier developers on IRC (like
Keith), but they are not as intimately familiar with Pier as
Janko is with Scribo.

Overall, I am in favor of Pier

--

-- 
Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/
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Brad Fuller | 18 Jul 03:05

Re: Choosing the platform for website

I like Pier too, as I've argued for it before on this mailing list.
I suggest that the people who do work on the site, the webteam, should
have some greater say in this selection -- simply because they are the
ones that are going to use it. I'm familiar with Pier, but Aida looks
very capable as well. The nice thing about Pier is that we have
several users and developers of Pier amongst us.

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Matthew Fulmer <tapplek@...> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 06:24:56PM +0200, Janko Miv??ek wrote:
>> So, we have two proposals on-line:
>>
>>      Aida/Web/Scribo based: http://squeaksite.aidaweb.si/
>>      Seaside/Pier based: http://squeak.lukas-renggli.ch/
>
> Here is how I stand on this issue:
>
> Usability:
>
> I have been using Swiki and SmallWiki for a while (1.5 years),
> and I find them very easy to use. Pier is thus also very easy
> for me to use, and it is also nicely documented.
>
> >From what I have seen of Scribo, it is not intended for people
> who have ever used a wiki before, but for business people who
> live and breathe word, and cannot imagine a markup language. I
> don't like it's rich text editor, and much prefer a simple wiki
> markup system, regardless of syntax. I also find it's method of
> adding new pages extremely un-intuitive, and I also cannot
> figure out how to add non-document resources to the website,
> which is as simple as a drop-down box in pier (In the add
> command, you choose what you want to create. Default choice is a
> wiki page)
>
> Familiarity:
>
> One big thing that Scribo has going for it is that it is under
> active development, and that at least one of the developers
> (especially Janko) is always on IRC to answer questions and
> listen to suggestions.
>
> Lukas is not, but there are other pier developers on IRC (like
> Keith), but they are not as intimately familiar with Pier as
> Janko is with Scribo.
>
> Overall, I am in favor of Pier
>
> --
> Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/
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Janko Mivšek | 18 Jul 10:19
Gravatar

Re: Choosing the platform for website

Brad Fuller wrote:

> I like Pier too, as I've argued for it before on this mailing list.
> I suggest that the people who do work on the site, the webteam, should
> have some greater say in this selection -- simply because they are the
> ones that are going to use it. I'm familiar with Pier, but Aida looks
> very capable as well. The nice thing about Pier is that we have
> several users and developers of Pier amongst us.

Speaking as proposer: I think mastering Aida/Scribo isn't a big deal as 
others already feel too. Also, as you can see, we deliver, and that's 
not only me. Maybe I'm the loudest but Nicolas made quite some things on 
our proposal, not to mention that he is the main developer of Scribo 
recently. And he is already expressed a will to join webteam in case 
Scribo is selected for squeak.org.

Best regards
Janko

> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Matthew Fulmer <tapplek@...> wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 06:24:56PM +0200, Janko Miv??ek wrote:
>>> So, we have two proposals on-line:
>>>
>>>      Aida/Web/Scribo based: http://squeaksite.aidaweb.si/
>>>      Seaside/Pier based: http://squeak.lukas-renggli.ch/
>> Here is how I stand on this issue:
>>
>> Usability:
>>
>> I have been using Swiki and SmallWiki for a while (1.5 years),
>> and I find them very easy to use. Pier is thus also very easy
>> for me to use, and it is also nicely documented.
>>
>> >From what I have seen of Scribo, it is not intended for people
>> who have ever used a wiki before, but for business people who
>> live and breathe word, and cannot imagine a markup language. I
>> don't like it's rich text editor, and much prefer a simple wiki
>> markup system, regardless of syntax. I also find it's method of
>> adding new pages extremely un-intuitive, and I also cannot
>> figure out how to add non-document resources to the website,
>> which is as simple as a drop-down box in pier (In the add
>> command, you choose what you want to create. Default choice is a
>> wiki page)
>>
>> Familiarity:
>>
>> One big thing that Scribo has going for it is that it is under
>> active development, and that at least one of the developers
>> (especially Janko) is always on IRC to answer questions and
>> listen to suggestions.
>>
>> Lukas is not, but there are other pier developers on IRC (like
>> Keith), but they are not as intimately familiar with Pier as
>> Janko is with Scribo.
>>
>> Overall, I am in favor of Pier
>>
>> --
>> Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/
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Brad Fuller | 18 Jul 16:44

Re: Choosing the platform for website

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 1:19 AM, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek <at> eranova.si> wrote:

> Speaking as proposer: I think mastering Aida/Scribo isn't a big deal as
> others already feel too. Also, as you can see, we deliver, and that's not
> only me. Maybe I'm the loudest but Nicolas made quite some things on our
> proposal, not to mention that he is the main developer of Scribo recently.
> And he is already expressed a will to join webteam in case Scribo is
> selected for squeak.org.

Just want to mention that the webteam requires skills to maintain both
sides: the content and any update/bugs/special-enhancements to the
image on the server.

_______________________________________________
Webteam mailing list
Webteam@...
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/webteam
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nico | 18 Jul 17:37

Re: Choosing the platform for website

Le vendredi 18 juillet 2008 à 10:19 +0200, Janko Mivšek a écrit :
> Brad Fuller wrote:
> 
> > I like Pier too, as I've argued for it before on this mailing list.
> > I suggest that the people who do work on the site, the webteam, should
> > have some greater say in this selection -- simply because they are the
> > ones that are going to use it. I'm familiar with Pier, but Aida looks
> > very capable as well. The nice thing about Pier is that we have
> > several users and developers of Pier amongst us.
> 
> Speaking as proposer: I think mastering Aida/Scribo isn't a big deal as 
> others already feel too. Also, as you can see, we deliver, and that's 
> not only me. Maybe I'm the loudest but Nicolas made quite some things on 
> our proposal, not to mention that he is the main developer of Scribo 
> recently. And he is already expressed a will to join webteam in case 
> Scribo is selected for squeak.org.

Yes, of course I would be happy to help you guys (whether you choose
Scribo or any other CMS).

Nicolas 
-- 
Nicolas Petton
http://nico.bioskop.fr
            ___
          ooooooo
         OOOOOOOOO
        |Smalltalk|
         OOOOOOOOO
          ooooooo
           \   /
            [|]
--------------------------------
Ma clé PGP est disponible ici :
http://nico.bioskop.fr/pgp-key.html

_______________________________________________
Webteam mailing list
Webteam@...
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/webteam
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Janko Mivšek | 18 Jul 10:35
Gravatar

Wiki vs. rich text editing (was Re: Choosing the platform for website)

Hi Matthew,

Speaking as proposer: let me start answering you part by part, because 
discussion on every your point separately is important.

 >>From what I have seen of Scribo, it is not intended for people
 > who have ever used a wiki before, but for business people who
 > live and breathe word, and cannot imagine a markup language. I
 > don't like it's rich text editor, and much prefer a simple wiki
 > markup system, regardless of syntax.

This dilemma I actually had by myself when starting developing Scribo 
precedesor 5 years ago. We started with Wiki markup (which is still 
possible in Scribo) but end users just don't like it. Yes, those end 
users are secretaries etc, definitively not programmers.

But let we ask ourself about our user base. Who will be authors of 
content of squeak.org in the future? As you know the plan is to broaden 
author base so that  all subcommunities will maintain its part of 
website by their own.

When you broaden author base you can soon expect unfamiliarity with Wiki 
markup syntax, not to mention that anyone really like to know many 
different syntaxes for many different Wikis (Wikipedia, SmallWiki, 
WikiWorks etc.).

On the other side anyone is immediately familiar with those buttons in 
rich text editor. Conclusion is therefore obvious: if we want to succeed 
with broadening author base, we need to make more familiar content 
editing. And rich text editor is more familiar, there is not doubt on that.

Best regards
Janko
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Igor Stasenko | 18 Jul 23:49

Re: Wiki vs. rich text editing (was Re: Choosing the platform for website)

Why just not support both ways and put point in this discussion? :)

2008/7/18 Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek <at> eranova.si>:
> Hi Matthew,
>
> Speaking as proposer: let me start answering you part by part, because
> discussion on every your point separately is important.
>
>>>From what I have seen of Scribo, it is not intended for people
>> who have ever used a wiki before, but for business people who
>> live and breathe word, and cannot imagine a markup language. I
>> don't like it's rich text editor, and much prefer a simple wiki
>> markup system, regardless of syntax.
>
> This dilemma I actually had by myself when starting developing Scribo
> precedesor 5 years ago. We started with Wiki markup (which is still possible
> in Scribo) but end users just don't like it. Yes, those end users are
> secretaries etc, definitively not programmers.
>
> But let we ask ourself about our user base. Who will be authors of content
> of squeak.org in the future? As you know the plan is to broaden author base
> so that  all subcommunities will maintain its part of website by their own.
>
> When you broaden author base you can soon expect unfamiliarity with Wiki
> markup syntax, not to mention that anyone really like to know many different
> syntaxes for many different Wikis (Wikipedia, SmallWiki, WikiWorks etc.).
>
> On the other side anyone is immediately familiar with those buttons in rich
> text editor. Conclusion is therefore obvious: if we want to succeed with
> broadening author base, we need to make more familiar content editing. And
> rich text editor is more familiar, there is not doubt on that.
>
> Best regards
> Janko
> _______________________________________________
> Webteam mailing list
> Webteam <at> lists.squeakfoundation.org
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/webteam
>

--

-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

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Janko Mivšek | 18 Jul 11:13
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Adding new pages (was Re: Choosing the platform for website)

Matthew Fulmer wrote:

> I also find it's method of
> adding new pages extremely un-intuitive, and I also cannot
> figure out how to add non-document resources to the website,
> which is as simple as a drop-down box in pier (In the add
> command, you choose what you want to create. Default choice is a
> wiki page)

I just compared SmallWiki vs. Scribo page adding:

	SmallWiki: *New Page*
	Scribo:    [New Page]

or explicit Urls:

	SmallWiki: *New Page>NewPage*
	Scribo:    [New Page>NewPage]

or external Urls:

	SmallWiki: *External>http://www.external.org*
	Scribo:    [External>http://www.external.org]

As you can see, actually the same way, and even that can be adjusted in 
Scribo to be exactly the same.

SmallWiki has a separate Contents page, where you can also add and 
remove pages. This is missing in Scribo right now, but it will be there 
soon.

SmallWiki has also an explicit hierarchy (with special pages called 
Folders) while Scribo intentionally don't have explicit page hierarchy. 
But you can implicitly set page hierarchy in explicit URl: 
[Installation>/Documentation/Installation]. It is true that we need to 
support automatic creation of hierarchical subpages better. I'm just 
working on that.

About adding other resources: Scribo has a full and really powerful 
image adding support in rich text editor. It is two step process: first 
you upload image, second you simply drag that image in the content on 
the place where you want. It can't be simpler than that.

I'll also soon switch on uploading any attachment to the page, like PDFs 
etc.

Best regards
Janko
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Gmane