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reed | 14 Feb 15:32
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Updated "Road Map" on Wiki

Posted at: http://interreality.org/phorum/read.php?2,180,180#msg-180
reed wrote:

I updated the "Road Map" page on the Wiki to reflect S5 plans.  Pete, please correct it if it's a bit off.  This is
just a general guideline, we don't really know yet when the first S5 release will be, or whether it will be a
"1.0" release or a beta or testing prerelease that is less easy to use.

http://interreality.org/wiki/VosRoadMap

Reed
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Lalo Martins | 14 Feb 20:13
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Re: Updated "Road Map" on Wiki

Also spracht reed (Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:35:40 -0500):
> 
> I updated the "Road Map" page on the Wiki to reflect S5 plans.  Pete,
> please correct it if it's a bit off.  This is just a general guideline,
> we don't really know yet when the first S5 release will be, or whether
> it will be a "1.0" release or a beta or testing prerelease that is less
> easy to use.

Cool!

I think you're very much on spot on the grand total of features, but 
maybe I'd sort them differently :-)

It's not up to me, but I'd do a more "testing" r1 (r0?) earlier, maybe as 
soon as spring.  That would probably entail not having any networking, or 
access control, or chat, or persistence, or something else that would 
seem pretty essential; but it would allow interested people to play with 
the development model and tools, and even write content.

On the other hand, some things that are in your r2 will be there in r1 in 
summer, or even "r0" in spring, because I'm working on them ;-) for one, 
hypervos is already alive and kicking in the form of an Apache mod_vos; 
I'm busy adding useful tools to that box, and I intend to have a mod_vos 
powered site up by the end of February, maybe mid-March if work rears its 
head too much.  And the first scripting language will be there a week 
after Peter adds marshaling (which language that will be depends greatly 
on my mood that week, though).

best,
                                               Lalo Martins
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Reed Hedges | 14 Feb 20:23
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Re: Updated "Road Map" on Wiki

On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 07:13:14PM +0000, Lalo Martins wrote:
> hypervos is already alive and kicking in the form of an Apache mod_vos; 

Ack! Why didn't you email the list! I've been adding stuff to S4 hypervos (and intend to port them to
S5!) And I have many plans for further development (see HyperVosIdeas on the
wiki)

Tell me more about mod_vos.

Reed
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Lalo Martins | 15 Feb 07:20
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s5 hypervos (mod_vos)

Also spracht Reed Hedges (Thu, 14 Feb 2008 14:23:53 -0500):
> On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 07:13:14PM +0000, Lalo Martins wrote:
>> hypervos is already alive and kicking in the form of an Apache mod_vos;
> 
> Ack! Why didn't you email the list! I've been adding stuff to S4
> hypervos (and intend to port them to S5!) And I have many plans for
> further development (see HyperVosIdeas on the wiki)

Heh, sorry.  It's still a bit nebulous, as I'm working on grokking s5 and 
reality-checking the APIs; I thought I'd tell the list about it once it's 
actually possible to build a (web) site, which as I said, is by the end 
of this month.  But if I realised you were actively working on s4 
hypervos, I'd probably have made a different decision.

> Tell me more about mod_vos.

Before I do that, to inform your reading, I guess I should talk about my 
own personal long-term vision for VOS.

For me, there are a few points ahead of a3dl and the Interreality in the 
coolness scale.  I like the whole architecture.  I like that it has 
actual sessions and connections and is stateful.  At the top of the list, 
I love it that the whole structure is object-oriented and fully semantic; 
we're more than a collection of opaque files, each with a type tag, which 
leaves it to the client to sort things out.  This is POWER that shouldn't 
be forgotten, and empowers us to do a lot of things the web has been 
struggling to do in the last few years, with impressive but ultimately 
very poor results.

So my "angle" at VOS development is CONTENT.  What I desire to have, at
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Reed Hedges | 26 Feb 15:49
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Re: s5 hypervos


I meant to send a message about this a while ago, but life has 
intervened recently.

Anyway, here are my current thoughts on what to do with Hypervos.

I'm still digesting Lalo's plans, need to reread it or talk to you in 
IRC Lalo.  For one thing, I'm not sure I fully understand the general 
need for explicit MVC classes/objects.  To me, MVC has always been 
implicit in VOS.    One set of Vobjects is the Model, the Control is 
implemented by listeners on those Vobjects, which either render the 
'View' directly locally for the user, or manipulate a second set of 
Vobjects to be the View.   You don't need to explictly create some kind 
of "View", it's just there in the second set of Vobjects.   The 
Controllers (listeners) can also be Metaobjects, (so they can be applied 
remotely by users using a UI) and I started doing this in the 
"vostoolbox" library in s4.

Anyway, here's how I was thinking Hypervos could work.

First, is to create a new library to put most of what's currently in the 
vosext_http extension in.  The vosext_http would just be the HTTP 
server, and it would call in to the library to actually render the 
objects.   Other "front ends" could be an Apache module, or simply 
listeners that listen to the entire tree of objects, and write files to 
the disk as things change so another HTTP server can serve static pages 
quickly, or a component of the general UserInterface client to render 
HTML in a pane in the UI.

The hypervos "engine" in the library would then do the work of walking a
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Reed Hedges | 1 Mar 15:12
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Re: s5 hypervos (mod_vos)

Lalo Martins wrote:
> Also spracht Reed Hedges (Thu, 14 Feb 2008 14:23:53 -0500):
>> On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 07:13:14PM +0000, Lalo Martins wrote:
>>> hypervos is already alive and kicking in the form of an Apache mod_vos;

Is the src/app/mod_vos directory in bzr current?

Reed
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Reed Hedges | 1 Mar 19:46
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Re: s5 hypervos (mod_vos)

Reed Hedges wrote:
> Lalo Martins wrote:
>> Also spracht Reed Hedges (Thu, 14 Feb 2008 14:23:53 -0500):
>>> On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 07:13:14PM +0000, Lalo Martins wrote:
>>>> hypervos is already alive and kicking in the form of an Apache mod_vos;
> 
> Is the src/app/mod_vos directory in bzr current?

I'd like to work on "hypervos" a bit in s5 and start bringing in some of 
the features I was working on in s4.   I don't want to deal with Apache 
at the moment though.  Can I split mod_vos.cc to seperate the Apache 
specific stuff out? (Or can you?)  If so, it would help to have some 
comments explaining some of the stuff it's doing (especially the Apache 
stuff, since I only know a little bit about Apache modules...)

Reed
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Reed Hedges | 1 Mar 17:04
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Re: s5 hypervos (mod_vos)


Lalo, What are fragments and portlets?
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Reed Hedges | 1 Mar 20:11
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Re: s5 hypervos (mod_vos)

Lalo Martins wrote:

> So.  How it works is basically... MVC.  There is a View Context class 
> called WebRequest.  (This is in libvos, in case someone wants to write 
> another implementation of hypervos, say, stand-alone, IIS, whatever; 

Why is this in libvos? It should be in a seperate library.

> 
> (Now, on my original design, web pages would be "transient views", 
> meaning, there is a ViewImplementation that writes to the WebRequest, but 
> it never actually returns a View.  This feature has been lost on Peter's 
> implementation, but we plan to bring it back later on; just not a very 
> high priority.  For now, by not attaching the View to any site, the 
> ViewImplementation can make sure it's collected in the next gc cycle.)

How expensive is it to create a new View like this for every web request?

I see in mod_vos.cc that it calls createView() on the result of 
findCompatibleViews().  [What does findCompatibleViews do??], is it 
somewhere in that call that it writes the HTML (or whatever) output to 
the stream?  Where? I can't find that part.

> You can look at CoreSchema.xod or mvc.hh for the WebRequest API;

Also should be moved out of the core library (at some point).

> 
> Additionally, more or less on a whim, WebRequest provides two different 
> APIs for "page assembly", to help you build a site (as opposed to a
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reed | 15 Feb 22:41
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Re: Updated "Road Map" on Wiki

Posted at: http://interreality.org/phorum/read.php?2,180,185#msg-185
reed wrote:

lalo Wrote:
> It's not up to me, but I'd do a more "testing" r1
> (r0?) earlier, maybe as 

A second "preview" release, similar to the one Pete made a little while ago with the user interface client,
you mean?  Sure, might be good.  Let's add it and if we are able to do that, we can, and if we don't feel like it's
worth it, skip it.

> On the other hand, some things that are in your r2
> will be there in r1 in 
> summer, or even "r0" in spring, because I'm
> working on them 
...
> hypervos is already alive and kicking in the form
> of an Apache mod_vos;
...
> And the first scripting language
> will be there a week 
> after Peter adds marshaling (which language that
> will be depends greatly 
> on my mood that week, though).
> 
...
> maybe I'd sort them differently :-)

Go ahead and update the wiki page (http://interreality.org/wiki/VosRoadmap).
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Reed Hedges | 20 Feb 00:14
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Re: Updated "Road Map" on Wiki

reed wrote:
> 
> I updated the "Road Map" page on the Wiki to reflect S5 plans.  Pete, please correct it if it's a bit off.  This
is just a general guideline, we don't really know yet when the first S5 release will be, or whether it will be
a "1.0" release or a beta or testing prerelease that is less easy to use.
> 
> http://interreality.org/wiki/VosRoadMap

I decided that in addition to a Blender export script, import from 
Google Sketchup (or export from it to COD or XOD) would be really good. 
  It's very easy to learn, and some people interested in VOS might 
already know how to use it (it's the main app for creating objects to 
drop into Google Earth).  Is this a good idea?  I added it to the road 
map.  This would be an easy contribution from anyone in the community 
who already knows ruby.

I'll also make the changes you mentioned Lalo.

Reed
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HEBLACK, J | 20 Feb 02:50
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Re: Updated "Road Map" on Wiki


On Tue, 2008-02-19 at 18:14 -0500, Reed Hedges wrote:
> reed wrote:
> > 
> > I updated the "Road Map" page on the Wiki to reflect S5 plans.  Pete, please correct it if it's a bit off.  This
is just a general guideline, we don't really know yet when the first S5 release will be, or whether it will be
a "1.0" release or a beta or testing prerelease that is less easy to use.
> > 
> > http://interreality.org/wiki/VosRoadMap
> 
> I decided that in addition to a Blender export script, import from 
> Google Sketchup (or export from it to COD or XOD) would be really good. 
>   It's very easy to learn, and some people interested in VOS might 
> already know how to use it (it's the main app for creating objects to 
> drop into Google Earth).  Is this a good idea? 

I don't know if Eris S. Raymond would think that it's a good idea to use
Google Sketchup because it's not free software but from this link it
looks like Sketchup can be run with wine:
http://wine-review.blogspot.com/2007/12/google-sketchup-6-on-linux-and-freebsd.html

This is an essay about why 2008 is an important year for operating
systems due to the next level of computing: 64 bit computing:

World Domination 201
Eric Steven Raymond
Rob Landley
Copyright © 2006 Eric S. Raymond
Copyright © 2006 Rob Landley
http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html
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