primarly for software developers and developers of id3v2 and similar standards

Ben Fourie | 29 Apr 2011 14:20

New to the list

Hey Every one,

I’m new to the list, and will be following id3v2 development closely from now on.

I have a suggestion regarding a new tag frame or perhaps 2.

Nearly every single application out there builds up their own database of metadata. One field that stands out that you find in all of those applications is a rating field. The typical 5 star rating. This information is stored by the application, and in most cases cannot be migrated to another platform.

This will prevent most users (or at the very least make them very reluctant) to switch to another player.

The second risk is loss of storage media.

You can backup your mp3 library but if you lose your OS drive(or the drive that holds the metadata for your media player), all your ratings will be gone, even after a system restore.

A suggestion from my side:

Have 2 rating frames.

One for your own personal rating with simply a numerical value from 1 – 5.

Then another rating frame for a public rating score.

Personal rating would contain the rating you chose for each individual score.

When you sync iTunes for instance, apple can then collect all those ratings and build a public rating for matching media.

Doing it this way, will of course allow you to migrate from the dying Zune to iPod faster than you can swipe your credit card :-p without the fear of losing all your ratings.

I would love to hear your thoughts around this.

Ben Fourie

DaMa Software

083 262 3555

www.damasoftware.com

benf <at> damasoftware.com

headers

Ben Bennett | 29 Apr 2011 15:37

Re: New to the list


There is such a tag "POPM":
  http://id3.org/id3v2.3.0#head-2452ec9cf8b42c5c117b518b69e129ff67970852

However... the players mostly don't use it.  You should hound them to
get it used.

It incorporates both a rating and a play count.  There can be multiple
in the same file, with different email addresses to distinguish them.

      	      -ben

On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 02:20:40PM +0200, Ben Fourie wrote:
> Hey Every one,
> 
> I'm new to the list, and will be following id3v2 development closely from
> now on.
> 
>  
> 
> I have a suggestion regarding a new tag frame or perhaps 2.
> 
>  
> 
> Nearly every single application out there builds up their own database of
> metadata. One field that stands out that you find in all of those
> applications  is a rating field. The typical 5 star rating. This information
> is stored by the application, and in most cases cannot be migrated to
> another platform.
> 
> This will prevent most users (or at the very least make them very reluctant)
> to switch to another player.
> 
>  
> 
> The second risk is loss of storage media.
> 
> You can backup your mp3 library but if you lose your OS drive(or the drive
> that holds the metadata for your media player), all your ratings will be
> gone, even after a system restore.
> 
>  
> 
> A suggestion from my side:
> 
>  
> 
> Have 2 rating frames.
> 
> One for your own personal rating with simply a numerical value from 1 - 5.
> 
> Then another rating frame for a public rating score.
> 
> Personal rating would contain the rating you chose for each individual
> score.
> 
> When you sync iTunes for instance, apple can then collect all those ratings
> and build a public rating for matching media.
> 
>  
> 
> Doing it this way, will of course allow you to migrate from the dying Zune
> to iPod faster than you can swipe your credit card :-p without the fear of
> losing all your ratings.
> 
>  
> 
> I would love to hear your thoughts around this.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> Ben Fourie
> 
> DaMa Software
> 
> 083 262 3555
> 
>  <http://www.damasoftware.com/> www.damasoftware.com
> 
>  <mailto:benf <at> damasoftware.com> benf <at> damasoftware.com 
> 
> MCTS(rgb)_507
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
>

headers

Scott Wheeler | 29 Apr 2011 15:49

Re: New to the list

On Apr 29, 2011, at 3:37 PM, Ben Bennett wrote:

> However... the players mostly don't use it.  You should hound them to
> get it used.

I believe rightly so.  I don't think that a normal operation like playing a file should trigger a potentially
lossy (e.g. ID3v2.2 to ID3v2.4 upgrade) action on a user's files.

-Scott

(to the mods, please just delete the earlier post saying something similar, sent it from the wrong address)

headers

Paul Taylor | 29 Apr 2011 20:27

Re: New to the list

On 29/04/2011 14:49, Scott Wheeler wrote:
> On Apr 29, 2011, at 3:37 PM, Ben Bennett wrote:
>
>> However... the players mostly don't use it.  You should hound them to
>> get it used.
> I believe rightly so.  I don't think that a normal operation like playing a file should trigger a
potentially lossy (e.g. ID3v2.2 to ID3v2.4 upgrade) action on a user's files.
>
> -Scott
Scott

I think you ae confusing POPM (rating with PCNT (play count)

Paul

headers

Ben Allison | 2 May 2011 21:09

Re: New to the list

Besides the problem of modifying users' files to increment the playcount
without explicit permission (something I agree with you 100% on, Scott),
there is also the issue that the mapping of 1-5 stars with POPM values is
very vague.  In Winamp, we've been somewhat coerced into adopting the
weird value ranges that Windows Media Player uses, as that is that is also
the logic used by the Windows file explorer when displaying the rating
column in the file view.

-Ben Allison

>
> On Apr 29, 2011, at 3:37 PM, Ben Bennett wrote:
>
>> However... the players mostly don't use it.  You should hound them to
>> get it used.
>
> I believe rightly so.  I don't think that a normal operation like playing
> a file should trigger a potentially lossy (e.g. ID3v2.2 to ID3v2.4
> upgrade) action on a user's files.
>
> -Scott
>
> (to the mods, please just delete the earlier post saying something
> similar, sent it from the wrong address)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe <at> id3.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help <at> id3.org
>

headers

Ben Bennett | 2 May 2011 21:12

Re: New to the list

Could you post that weird mapping here please so that it is at least
known in the archives...

		-ben

On Mon, May 02, 2011 at 03:09:32PM -0400, Ben Allison wrote:
> Besides the problem of modifying users' files to increment the playcount
> without explicit permission (something I agree with you 100% on, Scott),
> there is also the issue that the mapping of 1-5 stars with POPM values is
> very vague.  In Winamp, we've been somewhat coerced into adopting the
> weird value ranges that Windows Media Player uses, as that is that is also
> the logic used by the Windows file explorer when displaying the rating
> column in the file view.
> 
> -Ben Allison
> 
> >
> > On Apr 29, 2011, at 3:37 PM, Ben Bennett wrote:
> >
> >> However... the players mostly don't use it.  You should hound them to
> >> get it used.
> >
> > I believe rightly so.  I don't think that a normal operation like playing
> > a file should trigger a potentially lossy (e.g. ID3v2.2 to ID3v2.4
> > upgrade) action on a user's files.
> >
> > -Scott
> >
> > (to the mods, please just delete the earlier post saying something
> > similar, sent it from the wrong address)
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe <at> id3.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help <at> id3.org
> >
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe <at> id3.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help <at> id3.org

headers

Ben Allison | 2 May 2011 23:04

Re: New to the list

1 star: 1 (i think)
2 stars: 64
3 stars: 128
4 stars: 196
5 stars: 255

> Could you post that weird mapping here please so that it is at least
> known in the archives...
>
> 		-ben
>
> On Mon, May 02, 2011 at 03:09:32PM -0400, Ben Allison wrote:
>> Besides the problem of modifying users' files to increment the playcount
>> without explicit permission (something I agree with you 100% on, Scott),
>> there is also the issue that the mapping of 1-5 stars with POPM values
>> is
>> very vague.  In Winamp, we've been somewhat coerced into adopting the
>> weird value ranges that Windows Media Player uses, as that is that is
>> also
>> the logic used by the Windows file explorer when displaying the rating
>> column in the file view.
>>
>> -Ben Allison
>>
>> >
>> > On Apr 29, 2011, at 3:37 PM, Ben Bennett wrote:
>> >
>> >> However... the players mostly don't use it.  You should hound them to
>> >> get it used.
>> >
>> > I believe rightly so.  I don't think that a normal operation like
>> playing
>> > a file should trigger a potentially lossy (e.g. ID3v2.2 to ID3v2.4
>> > upgrade) action on a user's files.
>> >
>> > -Scott
>> >
>> > (to the mods, please just delete the earlier post saying something
>> > similar, sent it from the wrong address)
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe <at> id3.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help <at> id3.org
>> >
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe <at> id3.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help <at> id3.org
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe <at> id3.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help <at> id3.org
>

headers

Peter Bennett | 30 Apr 2011 17:41

Re: New to the list

Hi
FYI - I have an application for backing up your tags - tagbkup, backs up 
and restores your ID3 tags so that if you have to restore your disk your 
ratings and other updates can be restored, and you do not have to back 
up entire mp3 libraries.
See http://jampal.sf.net
Peter

On 4/29/2011 8:20 AM, Ben Fourie wrote:
>
> Hey Every one,
>
> I'm new to the list, and will be following id3v2 development closely 
> from now on.
>
> I have a suggestion regarding a new tag frame or perhaps 2.
>
> Nearly every single application out there builds up their own database 
> of metadata. One field that stands out that you find in all of those 
> applications  is a rating field. The typical 5 star rating. This 
> information is stored by the application, and in most cases cannot be 
> migrated to another platform.
>
> This will prevent most users (or at the very least make them very 
> reluctant) to switch to another player.
>
> The second risk is loss of storage media.
>
> You can backup your mp3 library but if you lose your OS drive(or the 
> drive that holds the metadata for your media player), all your ratings 
> will be gone, even after a system restore.
>
> A suggestion from my side:
>
> Have 2 rating frames.
>
> One for your own personal rating with simply a numerical value from 1 
> -- 5.
>
> Then another rating frame for a public rating score.
>
> Personal rating would contain the rating you chose for each individual 
> score.
>
> When you sync iTunes for instance, apple can then collect all those 
> ratings and build a public rating for matching media.
>
> Doing it this way, will of course allow you to migrate from the dying 
> Zune to iPod faster than you can swipe your credit card :-p without 
> the fear of losing all your ratings.
>
> I would love to hear your thoughts around this.
>
> */Ben Fourie/*
>
> */DaMa Software/*
>
> */083 262 3555/*
>
> */www.damasoftware.com <http://www.damasoftware.com/>/*
>
> */benf <at> damasoftware.com <mailto:benf <at> damasoftware.com>/*
>
> 	
>
> MCTS(rgb)_507
>