Pure-Data realtime computer music and graphics system

Mathieu Bouchard | 2 May 2010 19:34

Re: Ever divorce from Tcl/Tk? (Was Re: puredata_gui_design)

On Sun, 2 May 2010, András Murányi wrote:

> As it has been mentioned, "anyone" can start porting Pd to another 
> toolkit.

Why would you care, that an unspecified person said "anyone" "can" do 
"whatever" on pd-list ? It isn't a sign of anything. Why don't you instead 
think about why the project really matters, and about what is needed to 
succeed at the task ?

> The question for me here is, if Miller, Hans, and other core people are 
> interested in leaving Tcl/Tk behind, and if yes, how soon?

If anyone cared, there would be a prototype already.

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| Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801

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András Murányi | 2 May 2010 20:47

Re: Ever divorce from Tcl/Tk? (Was Re: puredata_gui_design)

2010/5/2 Mathieu Bouchard <matju <at> artengine.ca>

On Sun, 2 May 2010, András Murányi wrote:

As it has been mentioned, "anyone" can start porting Pd to another toolkit.

Why would you care, that an unspecified person said "anyone" "can" do "whatever" on pd-list ? It isn't a sign of anything. Why don't you instead think about why the project really matters, and about what is needed to succeed at the task ?

I was implicitly ironic, based on our shared knowledge of more floating ideas than actual projects.
I do think about why the project really matters. ;o) I think Pd shall get a proper language-independent API.

If you want to know why I don't start this project up myself, no it's not shyness or learned helplessness but the mere fact that i'm doing two jobs to survive and have no joules left for this. My bad.

The question for me here is, if Miller, Hans, and other core people are interested in leaving Tcl/Tk behind, and if yes, how soon?

If anyone cared, there would be a prototype already.

Well, i just imagine it is not easy to have one's 'child' undergo such a severe operation, so one might not make up a decision or even publicly address the question so easily.

Andras

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Mathieu Bouchard | 3 May 2010 20:05

Re: Ever divorce from Tcl/Tk? (Was Re: puredata_gui_design)

On Sun, 2 May 2010, András Murányi wrote:

> I was implicitly ironic, based on our shared knowledge of more floating 
> ideas than actual projects.

Well, there's no obvious difference between saying it ironically and 
saying it non-ironically. The fact is, someone could be saying the same 
thing and mean it. So, thanks for explaining the joke.

> I think Pd shall get a proper language-independent API.

What would it be like ? What do you mean by "language-independent" ?

> If you want to know why I don't start this project up myself, no it's 
> not shyness or learned helplessness but the mere fact that i'm doing two 
> jobs to survive and have no joules left for this. My bad.

But do you have enough "joules" left to explain what you have in mind ?

> Well, i just imagine it is not easy to have one's 'child' undergo such a 
> severe operation, so one might not make up a decision or even publicly 
> address the question so easily.

Why does that sound like it's about hiding a shameful disease ?

And then why does this imply, that a language-independent API would have 
to be replacing the current Tk support ?... Maybe it doesn't, and it could 
be a good idea to have a dual system, for the sake of not making 
"irreversible changes"... but branching off code, by itself, is already 
not nearly as irreversible as what you can do with a scalpel on body 
parts...

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| Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801

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András Murányi | 3 May 2010 20:37

Re: Ever divorce from Tcl/Tk? (Was Re: puredata_gui_design)

2010/5/3 Mathieu Bouchard <matju <at> artengine.ca>

On Sun, 2 May 2010, András Murányi wrote:

I was implicitly ironic, based on our shared knowledge of more floating ideas than actual projects.

Well, there's no obvious difference between saying it ironically and saying it non-ironically. The fact is, someone could be saying the same thing and mean it. So, thanks for explaining the joke.

What's more, i'm in a constant state of irony towards the world i'm living in. (Sorry about it.)

I think Pd shall get a proper language-independent API.

What would it be like ? What do you mean by "language-independent" ?

Well, an API is normally language independent so it would not be a thing to mention.
The layer which plays the role of the API currently, however, uses Tcl strings often.

If you want to know why I don't start this project up myself, no it's not shyness or learned helplessness but the mere fact that i'm doing two jobs to survive and have no joules left for this. My bad.

But do you have enough "joules" left to explain what you have in mind ?

Yes, i do. But be sure it's fuzzy enough there that i cannot state a model by myself.

Well, i just imagine it is not easy to have one's 'child' undergo such a severe operation, so one might not make up a decision or even publicly address the question so easily.

Why does that sound like it's about hiding a shameful disease ?

And then why does this imply, that a language-independent API would have to be replacing the current Tk support ?... Maybe it doesn't, and it could be a good idea to have a dual system, for the sake of not making "irreversible changes"... but branching off code, by itself, is already not nearly as irreversible as what you can do with a scalpel on body parts...

Maybe, maybe not, and this is really beyond my current knowledge. Forking, i suppose, will need a significant amount of additional resources, as Tcl plays a great part in current Pd. So i'm still interested in debating over Tcl - whether we think it's fast enough, smart enough, and future-proof enough to stay with.

Andras

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Mathieu Bouchard | 3 May 2010 20:59

Re: Ever divorce from Tcl/Tk? (Was Re: puredata_gui_design)

On Mon, 3 May 2010, András Murányi wrote:

> What's more, i'm in a constant state of irony towards the world i'm 
> living in. (Sorry about it.)  

No need to be sorry about that.

> Well, an API is normally language independent so it would not be a thing 
> to mention. The layer which plays the role of the API currently, 
> however, uses Tcl strings often.  

You mean pieces of Tcl code ?... Now if it only looked like Tcl data, 
instead, would it be better ?... In the end, a text representation has to 
be chosen, and it better be similar to an existing programming language.

> Maybe, maybe not, and this is really beyond my current knowledge. 
> Forking, i suppose, will need a significant amount of additional 
> resources, as Tcl plays a great part in current Pd. So i'm still 
> interested in debating over Tcl - whether we think it's fast enough, 
> smart enough, and future-proof enough to stay with.

Well, have you considered that Tcl supports more gui toolkits than just 
Tk, and that Tk can also run in many different programming languages ? 
And also, Tk is open-source (and could be hacked to become faster), and 
it's possible to make Tk widgets that emulate Tk Canvas.

Thus instead of a one-piece Tcl/Tk yes/no question, it's more like four 
different questions... plus any additional possibilities that I'm not 
stating here.

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| Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801

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