Discussion list for development of the Propel PHP5 object persistence layer.

Tony Bibbs | 21 Apr 2009 22:41

Is it safe to say reverse engineering is dead?

I'm confused.

a) Creole site makes it clear Creole is dead.
b) Propel's User Guide in build.properties section in "reverse
engineering" section says to use Creole.

Fundamentally is reverse engineering something we are supporting or
not?  I know at one point the idea was to kill Creole and spin off the
meta data stuff either into a separate project or roll it right into
Propel.

This needs to get cleaned up one way or another.  I personally feel
reverse engineering is critical for us but know I can't possible
tackle that on my own.

--

-- 
Tony Bibbs
Phone: 515.554.8046
Twitter, Skype, Facebook: tonybibbs
Web: http://www.tonybibbs.com
         http://www.apteno.net

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Alan Pinstein | 21 Apr 2009 22:56

Picon

Re: Is it safe to say reverse engineering is dead?

From what I understand (and I use rev-eng a LOT), creole is no longer  
maintained, but of course works. If you have creole installed  
(separate install) you can still use:

propel-gen proj/ creole

There is also a new "reverse" target that works:

propel-gen proj/ reverse

We now use reverse. Future rev-eng should be in there. I am not sure  
if it's a separate decoupled project or not. I recall something about  
a Lingua Franca project for rev-eng db from Hans but I think that's no  
longer a priority.

Alan

On Apr 21, 2009, at 4:41 PM, Tony Bibbs wrote:

> I'm confused.
>
> a) Creole site makes it clear Creole is dead.
> b) Propel's User Guide in build.properties section in "reverse
> engineering" section says to use Creole.
>
> Fundamentally is reverse engineering something we are supporting or
> not?  I know at one point the idea was to kill Creole and spin off the
> meta data stuff either into a separate project or roll it right into
> Propel.
>

(Continue reading)

Tony Bibbs | 21 Apr 2009 23:27

Re: Is it safe to say reverse engineering is dead?

So reverse works like creole did minus creole dependency?

On Apr 21, 2009, at 3:56 PM, Alan Pinstein <apinstein <at> mac.com> wrote:

> From what I understand (and I use rev-eng a LOT), creole is no longer
> maintained, but of course works. If you have creole installed
> (separate install) you can still use:
>
> propel-gen proj/ creole
>
> There is also a new "reverse" target that works:
>
> propel-gen proj/ reverse
>
> We now use reverse. Future rev-eng should be in there. I am not sure
> if it's a separate decoupled project or not. I recall something about
> a Lingua Franca project for rev-eng db from Hans but I think that's no
> longer a priority.
>
> Alan
>
> On Apr 21, 2009, at 4:41 PM, Tony Bibbs wrote:
>
>> I'm confused.
>>
>> a) Creole site makes it clear Creole is dead.
>> b) Propel's User Guide in build.properties section in "reverse
>> engineering" section says to use Creole.
>>
>> Fundamentally is reverse engineering something we are supporting or

(Continue reading)

Alan Pinstein | 21 Apr 2009 23:34

Picon

Re: Is it safe to say reverse engineering is dead?

Pretty well covered here:

http://propel.phpdb.org/trac/wiki/Users/Documentation/1.3/HowTos/ExistingDatabases

It's not clear what the differences are. We tried it out early on in  
1.3 cycle and it had bugs, but has long since been stable for us. I  
don't think it's missing anything that we used to rely on. You can  
certainly use both and diff the schema.xml outputs to see...

Alan

On Apr 21, 2009, at 5:27 PM, Tony Bibbs wrote:

> So reverse works like creole did minus creole dependency?
>
> On Apr 21, 2009, at 3:56 PM, Alan Pinstein <apinstein <at> mac.com> wrote:
>
>> From what I understand (and I use rev-eng a LOT), creole is no longer
>> maintained, but of course works. If you have creole installed
>> (separate install) you can still use:
>>
>> propel-gen proj/ creole
>>
>> There is also a new "reverse" target that works:
>>
>> propel-gen proj/ reverse
>>
>> We now use reverse. Future rev-eng should be in there. I am not sure
>> if it's a separate decoupled project or not. I recall something about
>> a Lingua Franca project for rev-eng db from Hans but I think that's

(Continue reading)

Cameron Brunner | 22 Apr 2009 00:23

Picon

Re: Is it safe to say reverse engineering is dead?

+1 for keeping rev engineering, i too use it as well as recommend it
to people with existing codebases that want to slowly migrate to
cleaner solutions, it saves a lot of work upfront with complex
preexisting solutions

the docs could do with some clearer explanation of it last i looked
but it works fine and is still extremely useful

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 7:34 AM, Alan Pinstein <apinstein <at> mac.com> wrote:
> Pretty well covered here:
>
> http://propel.phpdb.org/trac/wiki/Users/Documentation/1.3/HowTos/ExistingDatabases
>
> It's not clear what the differences are. We tried it out early on in
> 1.3 cycle and it had bugs, but has long since been stable for us. I
> don't think it's missing anything that we used to rely on. You can
> certainly use both and diff the schema.xml outputs to see...
>
> Alan
>
> On Apr 21, 2009, at 5:27 PM, Tony Bibbs wrote:
>
>> So reverse works like creole did minus creole dependency?
>>
>> On Apr 21, 2009, at 3:56 PM, Alan Pinstein <apinstein <at> mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>> From what I understand (and I use rev-eng a LOT), creole is no longer
>>> maintained, but of course works. If you have creole installed
>>> (separate install) you can still use:
>>>

(Continue reading)

Tony Bibbs | 22 Apr 2009 02:29

Re: Is it safe to say reverse engineering is dead?

Cameron, you using the "reverse" or the "creole" target?

I'm suggesting now is as good a time as any to ditch the "creole"
target completely.

FWIW, I just tested "reverse" and it worked like a charm.  I will try
to clean up docs to make sure any reference to "creole" mention
"reverse"

--Tony

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Cameron Brunner
<cameron.brunner <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> +1 for keeping rev engineering, i too use it as well as recommend it
> to people with existing codebases that want to slowly migrate to
> cleaner solutions, it saves a lot of work upfront with complex
> preexisting solutions
>
> the docs could do with some clearer explanation of it last i looked
> but it works fine and is still extremely useful
>
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 7:34 AM, Alan Pinstein <apinstein <at> mac.com> wrote:
>> Pretty well covered here:
>>
>> http://propel.phpdb.org/trac/wiki/Users/Documentation/1.3/HowTos/ExistingDatabases
>>
>> It's not clear what the differences are. We tried it out early on in
>> 1.3 cycle and it had bugs, but has long since been stable for us. I
>> don't think it's missing anything that we used to rely on. You can
>> certainly use both and diff the schema.xml outputs to see...

(Continue reading)

Cameron Brunner | 22 Apr 2009 04:16

Picon

Re: Is it safe to say reverse engineering is dead?

good question, im not even sure myself, i'll give them a test with
postgres and sqlite sometime soon and see if any problems appear

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Tony Bibbs <tony <at> tonybibbs.com> wrote:
> Cameron, you using the "reverse" or the "creole" target?
>
> I'm suggesting now is as good a time as any to ditch the "creole"
> target completely.
>
> FWIW, I just tested "reverse" and it worked like a charm.  I will try
> to clean up docs to make sure any reference to "creole" mention
> "reverse"
>
> --Tony
>
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Cameron Brunner
> <cameron.brunner <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>> +1 for keeping rev engineering, i too use it as well as recommend it
>> to people with existing codebases that want to slowly migrate to
>> cleaner solutions, it saves a lot of work upfront with complex
>> preexisting solutions
>>
>> the docs could do with some clearer explanation of it last i looked
>> but it works fine and is still extremely useful
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 7:34 AM, Alan Pinstein <apinstein <at> mac.com> wrote:
>>> Pretty well covered here:
>>>
>>> http://propel.phpdb.org/trac/wiki/Users/Documentation/1.3/HowTos/ExistingDatabases
>>>

(Continue reading)

Philip Graham | 22 Apr 2009 18:05

Re: Is it safe to say reverse engineering is dead?

I remember when I first started using Propel I tried to use the reverse target 
on a PostgreSQL database with multiple schemas and it didn't work.  I think I 
remember seeing a bug about this so it may be fixed.  If this still isn't 
working it would be a road block to some PostgreSQL users since a common 
scheme for multiple languages is to have one schema for each language then use 
'SET search_path <desired_lang>, public;'

Reverse engineering is definitely a must to attract a bigger user base but 
providing the support in two (or three) different ways is just bloat.  I think 
this is an apt quote for the situation.

"Perfection (in design) is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but 
rather when there is nothing more to take away"  -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Just my two cents,
Philip

On April 21, 2009 22:16:04 Cameron Brunner wrote:
> good question, im not even sure myself, i'll give them a test with
> postgres and sqlite sometime soon and see if any problems appear
>
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Tony Bibbs <tony <at> tonybibbs.com> wrote:
> > Cameron, you using the "reverse" or the "creole" target?
> >
> > I'm suggesting now is as good a time as any to ditch the "creole"
> > target completely.
> >
> > FWIW, I just tested "reverse" and it worked like a charm.  I will try
> > to clean up docs to make sure any reference to "creole" mention
> > "reverse"

(Continue reading)

Tony Bibbs | 22 Apr 2009 00:23

Re: Is it safe to say reverse engineering is dead?

K. Any reason to keep the Creole references in svn build properties?  
Should probably alias creole task to use reverse too. While we toss  
that around I will fix documentation.

--Tony

On Apr 21, 2009, at 4:34 PM, Alan Pinstein <apinstein <at> mac.com> wrote:

> Pretty well covered here:
>
> http://propel.phpdb.org/trac/wiki/Users/Documentation/1.3/HowTos/ExistingDatabases
>
> It's not clear what the differences are. We tried it out early on in
> 1.3 cycle and it had bugs, but has long since been stable for us. I
> don't think it's missing anything that we used to rely on. You can
> certainly use both and diff the schema.xml outputs to see...
>
> Alan
>
> On Apr 21, 2009, at 5:27 PM, Tony Bibbs wrote:
>
>> So reverse works like creole did minus creole dependency?
>>
>> On Apr 21, 2009, at 3:56 PM, Alan Pinstein <apinstein <at> mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>> From what I understand (and I use rev-eng a LOT), creole is no  
>>> longer
>>> maintained, but of course works. If you have creole installed
>>> (separate install) you can still use:
>>>

(Continue reading)

Alan Pinstein | 22 Apr 2009 00:25

Picon

Re: Is it safe to say reverse engineering is dead?

> K. Any reason to keep the Creole references in svn build properties?

Probably not.

> Should probably alias creole task to use reverse too.

There is probably a good reason or this would've been done already. I  
wouldn't recommend doing that quite yet...

Hans?

Alan

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Hans Lellelid | 22 Apr 2009 13:08

Re: Is it safe to say reverse engineering is dead?

Hi guys,

Alan Pinstein wrote:
>> K. Any reason to keep the Creole references in svn build properties?
> 
> Probably not.

Yeah, agreed.  I think we can drop Creole support for 1.4.

>> Should probably alias creole task to use reverse too.
> 
> There is probably a good reason or this would've been done already. I  
> wouldn't recommend doing that quite yet...

I think the main reason was we wanted to give people the option of using 
Creole, while we sorted out issues with the new task.  IIRC we're 
missing a couple of the databases with the new "reverse" task.  I know 
we did get some contributions for Oracle, though, so maybe that's 
working adequately.

Either way, I think simplifying it to one system ("reverse") is the 
right approach.  Basically the "reverse" code started by just ripping 
out those parts of Creole :)

The *real* solution would have been to fully develop LinguaFranca, which 
would provide a much more comprehensive system for reverse-enginnering; 
however, no one really has time to work on that.

Thanks,
Hans

(Continue reading)

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