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phelix | 13 Apr 2011 01:07
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Suggestions idle-dev


Over the last couple of months I have collected a couple of small but imho
important modifications / bugs to make working with IDLE smoother. But I
would prefer very much to discuss these in a more active environment.

Taking part in IDLE-development seems very hard, though it really does not
have to be. On the code-side everything is fine but marketing-wise things
are not so good. Just take this mailing list. I am in my thirties and to me
it looks like from the stone age. Who wants his eMail-account spammed with a
mailing list? I would prefer a regular forum and I think a lot of people
would, especially the younger ones.

Also this list is hard to find. It is not mentioned anywhere on the
idle-homepage and not very obvious in the program.

Compare the spyder homepage and the idle-homepage:
http://packages.python.org/spyder/ http://packages.python.org/spyder/ 
http://docs.python.org/library/idle.html
http://docs.python.org/library/idle.html 
I am not talking about fancy graphics but only missing information.

Why not display something in the splash-screen like: idle development is
easy, contribute at ...

I really like working with IDLE and it being coded in Python and easy to
modify and all but seing how slow it is improving makes me sad. Especially
the small things count for a smooth workflow.

Very many people start out with IDLE and it is a missed chance to give them
an unsmooth IDE.
(Continue reading)

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phil jones | 13 Apr 2011 01:35
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

I agree. It would be nice to get into hacking on Idle, but I've never
really found my way into it.

A couple of things. Is there a source-code repository on Github (or
some Mercurial equivalent) where everyone can see the
work-in-progress?

Is IDLE still part of the Python standard package? I use Ubuntu and I
always find I have to install Idle separately from Python. I don't
know if this is a Ubuntu perversity or whether Idle is now a
stand-alone thing. Given that people always seem to have problems
getting patches into the standard distribution maybe stand-alone would
be better. But who would make this decision?

I don't have a problem with a mailing list. But I agree, a URL to an
idle-dev central (place for developers hang out with links to this
mailing list, the repository, IRC etc.) would be great.

phil

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 12:07 AM, phelix <nabble <at> traction.de> wrote:
>
> Over the last couple of months I have collected a couple of small but imho
> important modifications / bugs to make working with IDLE smoother. But I
> would prefer very much to discuss these in a more active environment.
>
> Taking part in IDLE-development seems very hard, though it really does not
> have to be. On the code-side everything is fine but marketing-wise things
> are not so good. Just take this mailing list. I am in my thirties and to me
> it looks like from the stone age. Who wants his eMail-account spammed with a
(Continue reading)

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Ned Deily | 13 Apr 2011 03:06
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

In article <BANLkTinHUC8q=FCo7KvCAEARf+Q5qHHXEQ <at> mail.gmail.com>,
 phil jones <interstar <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 12:07 AM, phelix <nabble <at> traction.de> wrote:
> > Over the last couple of months I have collected a couple of small but imho
> > important modifications / bugs to make working with IDLE smoother. But I
> > would prefer very much to discuss these in a more active environment.
> >
> > Taking part in IDLE-development seems very hard, though it really does not
> > have to be. On the code-side everything is fine but marketing-wise things
> > are not so good. Just take this mailing list. I am in my thirties and to me
> > it looks like from the stone age. Who wants his eMail-account spammed with 
> > a
> > mailing list? I would prefer a regular forum and I think a lot of people
> > would, especially the younger ones.
> >
> > Also this list is hard to find. It is not mentioned anywhere on the
> > idle-homepage and not very obvious in the program.

The IDLE-dev mailing list is one of many hosted by python.org.  See 
http://www.python.org/community/lists/ for the link to the complete list 
here:  http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo

If you would prefer other formats, the mailing list is mirrored 
elsewhere.  In particular, gmane.org offers a bi-directional mirror of 
the list is several formats, including web-based blog and NNTP newsfeeds:

   http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.idle

> A couple of things. Is there a source-code repository on Github (or
> some Mercurial equivalent) where everyone can see the
(Continue reading)

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phelix | 13 Apr 2011 10:55
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev


>The IDLE-dev mailing list is one of many hosted by python.org.  See 
>http://www.python.org/community/lists/ for the link to the complete list 
>here:  http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo
I saw that. Only the main python discussion list is a newsgroup?

>If you would prefer other formats, the mailing list is mirrored 
>elsewhere.  In particular, gmane.org offers a bi-directional mirror of 
>the list is several formats, including web-based blog and NNTP newsfeeds:
I am using old.nabble.com. But for someone not used to this stuff it is
quite hard to get in compared to a forum. Maybe these alternative ways
should be mentioned on the idle-dev list site 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev  or on the IDLE homepage.

>There is a newly written Python Developer's Guide which describes the 
>whole process of how to develop and contribute fixes and features for 
>Python in general.  It applies to IDLE as well:
>
>   http://docs.python.org/devguide/
this sounds good, I will take a look at that

>...
>term, a replacement for IDLE using a more modern GUI interface would be 
>an interesting project.   That really means finding a replacement for 
>Tkinter in the standard library. One of the most promising efforts for 
>that is Greg Ewing's PyGUI project:
>
>   http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/greg.ewing/python_gui/
I'd love to see that project florish, too. But Tkinter does look native with
(Continue reading)

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phil jones | 13 Apr 2011 11:56
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

I can't help noticing that IDLE has a history of people forking it in
order to get development work done faster (ie. Idlefork, VIDLE etc.)

So it seems that to ramp up progress we may need our own space. (Eg.a
wiki, a mercurial (or git) code repository, a bug tracker).

Ideally, perhaps there could be a continuity with those other projects
- are the people behind Idlefork and VIDLE reading this list? I know
that those projects had specific goals, but I wonder whether there
isn't a role for a standard Idle-fork project kept somewhere like
Github or Butbucket which everyone who's interested in further
development of Idle could work against.

I know there'd still be an issue of getting this back into the main
Python tree, but if it took off (and IDLE development was seen to have
more direction and be moving faster) then there'd be more of an
incentive for the rest of the Python development community to support
that too.

phil

>
> I would like to make my suggestions more concrete:
> * easy access to idle-dev and/or description on the IDLE homepage
> * a wiki for IDLE development
> * a wiki for using IDLE
> * a bug-tracker aside from Python bug-tracker
> * a feature-tracker
> * all this accessible from the homepage
> * an invitation to contribute on the IDLE startup console or at least the
(Continue reading)

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Bruce Sherwood | 13 Apr 2011 16:48
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

I'm associated with VIDLE and I read this list. VIDLE was created by
David Scherer and Guilherme Polo, neither of whom is now an active
developer. I worked with them but over the years have not contributed
much to this myself. I did however make a version that runs on Python
3. I'm the main developer of VPython (an easy to use 3D programming
environment, see vpython.org) and I bundle VIDLE with the Windows and
Mac installers for VPython, and offer a VIDLE package for Linux.

My own strong interest in IDLE springs from being co-author of an
intro physics curriculum (matterandinteractions.org) within which
thousands of college engineering and science students each semester
write Python programs, using the VPython module, to model physical
systems in 3D. Because few of these students have ever written a line
of code before coming to the physics course, IDLE is vitally important
as a lightweight, easy to use IDE.

Bruce

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 3:56 AM, phil jones <interstar <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> I can't help noticing that IDLE has a history of people forking it in
> order to get development work done faster (ie. Idlefork, VIDLE etc.)
>
> So it seems that to ramp up progress we may need our own space. (Eg.a
> wiki, a mercurial (or git) code repository, a bug tracker).
>
> Ideally, perhaps there could be a continuity with those other projects
> - are the people behind Idlefork and VIDLE reading this list? I know
> that those projects had specific goals, but I wonder whether there
> isn't a role for a standard Idle-fork project kept somewhere like
> Github or Butbucket which everyone who's interested in further
(Continue reading)

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Terry Reedy | 13 Apr 2011 22:12
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

On 4/13/2011 5:56 AM, phil jones wrote:

> So it seems that to ramp up progress we may need our own space. (Eg.a
> wiki, a mercurial (or git) code repository, a bug tracker).

Once I get set up with hg on a new machine, I plan to establish (or ask 
whoever to establish) a shared IDLE respository on hg.python.org, 
perhaps 'features/idle'. That will make trading and testing code much 
easier.

--

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy
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phil jones | 13 Apr 2011 22:28
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

Yes. Terry, that's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking. If
there's a place for people interested in IDLE to exchange and
synchronise their patches without waiting for things to get into the
main "trunk" on Python then this can accelerate development and
motivate more people to get involved.

phil

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy <at> udel.edu> wrote:
> On 4/13/2011 5:56 AM, phil jones wrote:
>
>> So it seems that to ramp up progress we may need our own space. (Eg.a
>> wiki, a mercurial (or git) code repository, a bug tracker).
>
> Once I get set up with hg on a new machine, I plan to establish (or ask
> whoever to establish) a shared IDLE respository on hg.python.org, perhaps
> 'features/idle'. That will make trading and testing code much easier.
>
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev <at> python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>
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phil jones | 26 Apr 2011 13:36
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

Hi Terry,

did you get any further towards making an idledev hg repository? Do
people on this list generally agree with the idea?

phil

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 9:28 PM, phil jones <interstar <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes. Terry, that's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking. If
> there's a place for people interested in IDLE to exchange and
> synchronise their patches without waiting for things to get into the
> main "trunk" on Python then this can accelerate development and
> motivate more people to get involved.
>
> phil
>
> On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy <at> udel.edu> wrote:
>> On 4/13/2011 5:56 AM, phil jones wrote:
>>
>>> So it seems that to ramp up progress we may need our own space. (Eg.a
>>> wiki, a mercurial (or git) code repository, a bug tracker).
>>
>> Once I get set up with hg on a new machine, I plan to establish (or ask
>> whoever to establish) a shared IDLE respository on hg.python.org, perhaps
>> 'features/idle'. That will make trading and testing code much easier.
>>
>> --
>> Terry Jan Reedy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
(Continue reading)

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Terry Reedy | 26 Apr 2011 23:24
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

On 4/26/2011 7:36 AM, phil jones wrote:

> did you get any further towards making an idledev hg repository?

I am still not ready to work on IDLE yet.

> Do people on this list generally agree with the idea?

It will be available to anyone who wants to use it.

--

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy
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Terry Reedy | 13 Apr 2011 22:08
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

On 4/12/2011 7:07 PM, phelix wrote:

> Taking part in IDLE-development seems very hard, though it really does not
> have to be. On the code-side everything is fine but marketing-wise things
> are not so good. Just take this mailing list. I am in my thirties and to me
> it looks like from the stone age. Who wants his eMail-account spammed with a

Like it or not, most Python development takes place via the tracker 
(effectively the 'forum') and mailing lists. Python-list is mirrored to 
comp.lang.python. Most of the lists are mirrored to gmane.comp.python.x 
at news.gmane.org, including this one.

--

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy
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phelix | 14 Apr 2011 00:09
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev


>Like it or not, most Python development takes place via the tracker 
>(effectively the 'forum') and mailing lists. Python-list is mirrored to 
>comp.lang.python. Most of the lists are mirrored to gmane.comp.python.x 
>at news.gmane.org, including this one.
But where is a new user supposed to find this information? For someone
coming frome outside it is hard to grasp all these structures. To get a
quick start without frustration quickstart information should be available
on the IDLE-homepage.

=phelix=
--

-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Suggestions-idle-dev-tp31383544p31392360.html
Sent from the Python - idle-dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Ned Deily | 14 Apr 2011 01:06
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

In article <31392360.post <at> talk.nabble.com>, phelix <nabble <at> traction.de> 
wrote:

> >Like it or not, most Python development takes place via the tracker 
> >(effectively the 'forum') and mailing lists. Python-list is mirrored to 
> >comp.lang.python. Most of the lists are mirrored to gmane.comp.python.x 
> >at news.gmane.org, including this one.
> But where is a new user supposed to find this information? For someone
> coming frome outside it is hard to grasp all these structures. To get a
> quick start without frustration quickstart information should be available
> on the IDLE-homepage.

What IDLE homepage?  If you are referring to either

   http://docs.python.org/py3k/library/idle.html
or
   http://docs.python.org/library/idle.html

they are part of the Python documentation set.  The Python Developer's 
Guide includes a section on helping with the documentation:

    http://docs.python.org/devguide/docquality.html

--

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 nad <at> acm.org
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