gmane.comp.python.sqlobject

google app engine backend

Hi Oleg, this is mostly a question to you:

Any interest in developing a google app engine backend for sqlobject?
Although the datastore they use is not really a relational database
there are lots of similarities and the GQL query language used it
seems to me is a subset of SQL.

See http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/datastore/

Just a thought,
Daniel

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Oleg Broytmann | 9 Apr 09:12

Re: google app engine backend

Hello.

On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 10:53:19PM -0700, Daniel Fetchinson wrote:
> Any interest in developing a google app engine backend for sqlobject?
> See http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/datastore/

   Only if someone does the job. And with the following caveats:
-- I don't know if the docs provide enough information about low-level
   details; currently I see the docs mostly concentrated on Django ORM,
   I don't know if it's possible to write an SQLObject connection class at
   all;
-- this is a commercial storage that I don't have a test access to, so the
   driver will always be underdeveloped and undertested unless someone
   provides a steady stream of patches - a situation similar to
   "second-class citizens" of SQLObject like Sybase and MaxDB.

Oleg.
--

-- 
     Oleg Broytmann            http://phd.pp.ru/            phd <at> phd.pp.ru
           Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.

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Colin J. Williams | 9 Apr 14:14

Re: google app engine backend

Oleg Broytmann wrote:

Hello. On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 10:53:19PM -0700, Daniel Fetchinson wrote:
Any interest in developing a google app engine backend for sqlobject? See http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/datastore/
Only if someone does the job. And with the following caveats: -- I don't know if the docs provide enough information about low-level details; currently I see the docs mostly concentrated on Django ORM, I don't know if it's possible to write an SQLObject connection class at all; -- this is a commercial storage that I don't have a test access to, so the driver will always be underdeveloped and undertested unless someone provides a steady stream of patches - a situation similar to "second-class citizens" of SQLObject like Sybase and MaxDB. Oleg.

The Google AppEngine appears to use Bigtable (http://labs.google.com/papers/bigtable.html).

This is not a relational database.

However, I get the impression from the "Camp Fire" that free access is available for development and testing.

Colin W.

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Daniel Fetchinson | 9 Apr 19:27

Re: google app engine backend

> Any interest in developing a google app engine backend for sqlobject?
> See http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/datastore/
>
>    Only if someone does the job. And with the following caveats:
> -- I don't know if the docs provide enough information about low-level
>    details; currently I see the docs mostly concentrated on Django ORM,
>    I don't know if it's possible to write an SQLObject connection class at
>    all;
> -- this is a commercial storage that I don't have a test access to, so the
>    driver will always be underdeveloped and undertested unless someone
>    provides a steady stream of patches - a situation similar to
>    "second-class citizens" of SQLObject like Sybase and MaxDB.
>
> Oleg.
>   The Google AppEngine appears to use Bigtable
> (http://labs.google.com/papers/bigtable.html).
>
> This is not a relational database.
>
> However, I get the impression from the "Camp Fire" that free access is
> available for development and testing.

Yes, it's not a relational database, but in practice all this means is
that you can not make joins (I think). You can still query a single
table for various properties, order the result, and iterate over them.
There are one-to-many and many-to-many relationships too. So it seems
to me that a good portion of sqlobject is applicable but of course
certain parts will have no meaning (like joins).

I've already signed up for an account but haven't heard back from them yet.

Cheers,
Daniel

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Sam's Lists | 9 Apr 21:22

Re: google app engine backend

sqlobject could probably simulate joins the hard way as well.....it might not be that bad performance wise at least for some apps in some cases.

On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 2:27 PM, Daniel Fetchinson <fetchinson <at> googlemail.com> wrote:

> Any interest in developing a google app engine backend for sqlobject?
> See http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/datastore/
>
> Only if someone does the job. And with the following caveats:
> -- I don't know if the docs provide enough information about low-level
> details; currently I see the docs mostly concentrated on Django ORM,
> I don't know if it's possible to write an SQLObject connection class at
> all;
> -- this is a commercial storage that I don't have a test access to, so the
> driver will always be underdeveloped and undertested unless someone
> provides a steady stream of patches - a situation similar to
> "second-class citizens" of SQLObject like Sybase and MaxDB.
>
> Oleg.
> The Google AppEngine appears to use Bigtable
> (http://labs.google.com/papers/bigtable.html).
>
> This is not a relational database.
>
> However, I get the impression from the "Camp Fire" that free access is
> available for development and testing.

Yes, it's not a relational database, but in practice all this means is
that you can not make joins (I think). You can still query a single
table for various properties, order the result, and iterate over them.
There are one-to-many and many-to-many relationships too. So it seems
to me that a good portion of sqlobject is applicable but of course
certain parts will have no meaning (like joins).

I've already signed up for an account but haven't heard back from them yet.

Cheers,
Daniel

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Colin J. Williams | 10 Apr 00:08

Re: google app engine backend

Daniel Fetchinson wrote:

Any interest in developing a google app engine backend for sqlobject? See http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/datastore/ Only if someone does the job. And with the following caveats: -- I don't know if the docs provide enough information about low-level details; currently I see the docs mostly concentrated on Django ORM, I don't know if it's possible to write an SQLObject connection class at all; -- this is a commercial storage that I don't have a test access to, so the driver will always be underdeveloped and undertested unless someone provides a steady stream of patches - a situation similar to "second-class citizens" of SQLObject like Sybase and MaxDB. Oleg. The Google AppEngine appears to use Bigtable (http://labs.google.com/papers/bigtable.html). This is not a relational database. However, I get the impression from the "Camp Fire" that free access is available for development and testing.
Yes, it's not a relational database, but in practice all this means is that you can not make joins (I think). You can still query a single table for various properties, order the result, and iterate over them. There are one-to-many and many-to-many relationships too. So it seems to me that a good portion of sqlobject is applicable but of course certain parts will have no meaning (like joins). I've already signed up for an account but haven't heard back from them yet.

As have I.

You might Google for E. F. Codd. From that, I think you'll see that more than
joins are involved. Which is a problem in its own right.

It seems that Google envisages links between objects, this was the basis of
pre-relational databases.

Colin W.

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Sam's Lists | 9 Apr 17:33

Re: google app engine backend

Just a side note...it would be really cool to be able to take my app....make a few changes and use google's cloud instead of mysql. :)

On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 4:12 AM, Oleg Broytmann <phd <at> phd.pp.ru> wrote:

Hello.

On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 10:53:19PM -0700, Daniel Fetchinson wrote:
> Any interest in developing a google app engine backend for sqlobject?

> See http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/datastore/

Only if someone does the job. And with the following caveats:
-- I don't know if the docs provide enough information about low-level
details; currently I see the docs mostly concentrated on Django ORM,
I don't know if it's possible to write an SQLObject connection class at
all;
-- this is a commercial storage that I don't have a test access to, so the
driver will always be underdeveloped and undertested unless someone
provides a steady stream of patches - a situation similar to
"second-class citizens" of SQLObject like Sybase and MaxDB.

Oleg.
--
Oleg Broytmann http://phd.pp.ru/ phd <at> phd.pp.ru
Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.

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Jorge Vargas | 27 Apr 00:07

Re: google app engine backend

On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 1:53 AM, Daniel Fetchinson
<fetchinson <at> googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hi Oleg, this is mostly a question to you:
>
>  Any interest in developing a google app engine backend for sqlobject?
>  Although the datastore they use is not really a relational database
>  there are lots of similarities and the GQL query language used it
>  seems to me is a subset of SQL.
>
>  See http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/datastore/
>
sorry to be the pessimist here but I really don't see the point.
SQLObject is an Object relational mapper, that is link a relation db
to python objects, bigtable is an object db. therefore you will be
going from object to relations to objects which makes little sense.

IMO, the Bigtable engine makes things like SQLObject and SQLAlchemy
irrelevant in google's storage as their purpose is to easy the
transition of the joins, and tables, in Bigtable you can have list
attributes as a buildin type and the queries are so simple you really
don't need an ORM.

If something is to be implemented in appengine is a SQLObject-like
interface where you can manipulate objects and their changes become
permanent on the storage. Which IMO will be better to just start from
scratch as SO depends way too much on the relational patterns.

>  Just a thought,
>  Daniel
>
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