Tobias Conradi | 4 May 03:35 2012
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[tz] Sakha Republic bugs - eight months passed - still not fixed

1) Since September 2011 - at least - there is disagreement between
reported law and tzdb for current offsets in
Bulunsky Ulus,
Oymyakonsky Ulus,
Tomponsky Ulus,
Ust-Maysky Ulus
which are located in Russia.

On 2012-04-29 (http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-April/017639.html)
it was defined by a TZ maintainer that:
"The first order of business is to ensure that current (2012) time stamps
are handled correctly throughout Russia."

So, I assume the below could fall under first order of business.

2012-09-16 Alexander Krivenyshev reported differences
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008798.html

2012-09-16 Tobias Conradi wondered whether there was a change in
offset or the TZ DB simply contained false data
Two zones are proposed in case the data is correct for the time before
the decree took effect
Asia/Khandyga (setup changed later)
Asia/Ust-Nera containing Oymyakonsky
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008799.html

2012-09-17 Arthur David Olson makes a summary
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008818.html

2012-09-20 Tobias Conradi changes the proposal for
(Continue reading)

Ian Abbott | 4 May 10:53 2012
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Re: [tz] Sakha Republic bugs - eight months passed - still not fixed

On 2012/05/04 02:35 AM, Tobias Conradi wrote:
> 2012-09-16 Alexander Krivenyshev reported differences
[...]
> 2012-09-16 Tobias Conradi wondered whether there was a change in
> offset or the TZ DB simply contained false data
[...]
> 2012-09-17 Arthur David Olson makes a summary
[...]
> 2012-09-20 Tobias Conradi changes the proposal for
> Asia/Khandyga to only contain Tomponsky, Ust-Maysky
[...]
> 2012-09-27 Arthur David Olson asks for old decree
[...]
> 2012-09-27 Sanjeev Gupta provides a link to the scan
[...]
> 2012-10-02 Arthur David Olson makes some analysis of the data
[...]
> 2012-10-02 Yury Tarasievich clarifies that the sections contain border
> descriptions

Could I borrow your time machine? :-)

--

-- 
-=( Ian Abbott  <at>  MEV Ltd.    E-mail: <abbotti <at> mev.co.uk>             )=-
-=( Tel: +44 (0)161 477 1898   FAX: +44 (0)161 718 3587              )=-

Tobias Conradi | 5 May 05:52 2012
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[tz] Sakha Republic - raion, ulus, district

In reply to Oscar van Vlijmen 2012-05-04 (ca. 20:06 - not sure what
offsets my mailer uses)
=============
"[tz] proposed changes: past Altai/Tomsk time zone shifts"
>> http://www.garant.ru/hotlaw/federal/346568/
>> ???? (ulus) not found on that page
>
> Them trolls! Good you looked into this!
> The complete text of the law is now published at:
> http://government.ru/gov/results/16355/
==============

The 1992
http://government.consultant.ru/page.aspx?1223966
only has raion as far as I could see.

2011
http://government.ru/gov/results/16355/
for Sakha has ulus with raion in parentheses.
while the summary at
http://www.garant.ru/hotlaw/federal/346568/
has only raion.

All non-English Wikipedias use a form of "Ulus" for an article about
an individual ulus, only the English WP does not, e.g.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abyysky_District

I suggest using only transliteration (i.e. raion or ulus) instead of
using the term "district" for the tz database. This avoids issues with
other entities that may be translated as district. Following are two
(Continue reading)

Arthur David Olson | 5 May 22:06 2012
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Re: [tz] Sakha Republic bugs - eight months passed - still not fixed

I'm trying to determine the instant when clocks in time-zone-shifting parts of Russia
changed in September 2011, using sources provided by Alexander Krivenyshev
and Tobias Conradi.

One source is...
    http://government.ru/gov/results/16355/
...which, according to translate.google.com, begins "Decree of August 31, 2011 No 725"
and contains no other dates or "effective date" information.

Another source is...
    http://www.rg.ru/2011/09/06/chas-zona-dok.html
...which, according to translate.google.com, begins "Resolution of the Government of
the Russian Federation on August 31, 2011 N 725" and also contains
"Date first official publication: September 6, 2011
Posted on: in the "RG" - Federal Issue number 5573 September 6, 2011"
but whcih does not contain any "effective date" information.

Another source is...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oymyakonsky_District#cite_note-RuTime-7
...which, in note 8, contains "Resolution #725 of August 31, 2011...
Effective as of after 7 days following the day of the official publication"
but which does not contain any reference to September 6, 2011.

The Wikipedia article refers to...
    http://base.consultant.ru/cons/cgi/online.cgi?req=doc;base=LAW;n=118896
...which seems to copy the text of the government.ru page.

Tobias Conradi combines Wikipedia's "on or after 7 days following the day of the official publication"
with www.rg.ru's "Date of first official publication: September 6, 2011" to get
September 13, 2011 as the cutover date (unusually, a Tuesday, as Tobias Conradi notes).

None of the sources indicates a time of day for changing clocks.

Is September 13 the right date? What's the right time of day?
Do any Russian newspapers front pages provide clues? Thanks for any light folks can shed.

      --ado

Dmitry V. Levin | 6 May 01:44 2012

Re: [tz] Sakha Republic bugs - eight months passed - still not fixed

On Sat, May 05, 2012 at 04:06:42PM -0400, Arthur David Olson wrote:
> I'm trying to determine the instant when clocks in time-zone-shifting parts
> of Russia
> changed in September 2011, using sources provided by Alexander Krivenyshev
> and Tobias Conradi.
> 
> One source is...
>     http://government.ru/gov/results/16355/
> ...which, according to translate.google.com, begins "Decree of August 31,
> 2011 No 725"
> and contains no other dates or "effective date" information.
> 
> Another source is...
>     http://www.rg.ru/2011/09/06/chas-zona-dok.html
> ...which, according to translate.google.com, begins "Resolution of the
> Government of
> the Russian Federation on August 31, 2011 N 725" and also contains
> "Date first official publication: September 6, 2011
> Posted on: in the "RG" - Federal Issue number 5573 September 6, 2011"
> but whcih does not contain any "effective date" information.
> 
> Another source is...
>     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oymyakonsky_District#cite_note-RuTime-7
> ...which, in note 8, contains "Resolution #725 of August 31, 2011...
> Effective as of after 7 days following the day of the official publication"
> but which does not contain any reference to September 6, 2011.

According to the law (see http://base.garant.ru/10123081/ or
http://base.consultant.ru/cons/cgi/online.cgi?req=doc;base=LAW;n=121781;fld=134;dst=100016)
the date when the resolution come into effect depends whether it affects
the rights, freedoms and duties of people.  If yes, then it come into
effect simultaneously on the entire territory of the Russian Federation
upon the expiry of 7 days after the day of its first official publication,
that is, after 6+7=13 of September.  If no, then it come into effect from
the date of signing, that is, August 31.  From my PoV, it is the first
case.

> Tobias Conradi combines Wikipedia's "on or after 7 days following the day
> of the official publication"
> with www.rg.ru's "Date of first official publication: September 6, 2011" to
> get
> September 13, 2011 as the cutover date (unusually, a Tuesday, as Tobias
> Conradi notes).
> 
> None of the sources indicates a time of day for changing clocks.

I suppose there was no actual clock change.  The resolution #725 is not
about changing clocks, it contains no such instructions whatsoever.

> Is September 13 the right date? What's the right time of day?

Assuming that the day is "after September 13", one can suppose
it should be 00:00 of September 14.

--

-- 
ldv
Arthur David Olson | 6 May 02:04 2012
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Re: [tz] Sakha Republic bugs - eight months passed - still not fixed

I suppose there was no actual clock change.  The resolution #725 is not
about changing clocks, it contains no such instructions whatsoever.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Russia:
 
   As a result [of decree #725] some districts of the Sakha Republic switched from Vladivostok Time to Yakutsk Time (Zone 7):
        Tomponsky District
        Ust-Maysky District
    Some districts switched from Magadan Time to Vladivostok Time:
        Oymyakonsky District (Sakha Republic)
        Kurilsky District and Yuzhno-Kurilsky District (Sakhalin Oblast)

These switches are what would require clock changes; the question is, when did they change?

        --ado


Andrew Paprocki | 6 May 02:09 2012

Re: [tz] Sakha Republic bugs - eight months passed - still not fixed

On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Arthur David Olson
<arthurdavidolson <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>> I suppose there was no actual clock change.  The resolution #725 is not
>> about changing clocks, it contains no such instructions whatsoever.
>
>
> According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Russia:
>
>    As a result [of decree #725] some districts of the Sakha Republic
> switched from Vladivostok Time to Yakutsk Time (Zone 7):
>         Tomponsky District
>         Ust-Maysky District
>     Some districts switched from Magadan Time to Vladivostok Time:
>         Oymyakonsky District (Sakha Republic)
>         Kurilsky District and Yuzhno-Kurilsky District (Sakhalin Oblast)
>
> These switches are what would require clock changes; the question is, when
> did they change?

http://www.rosbalt.ru/main/2011/09/01/885098.html

"From 2:00 am October 30, 2011 is proposed to transfer Primorsky Krai
and the Republic of Sakha (Yakutia) for the seventh time zone (plus 6
hours to Moscow time), and the Irkutsk region - the fifth time zone
(plus 4 hours to Moscow time). Today in these regions, the difference
in time to Moscow more than one hour."

Dmitry V. Levin | 6 May 03:19 2012

Re: [tz] Sakha Republic bugs - eight months passed - still not fixed

On Sat, May 05, 2012 at 08:09:59PM -0400, Andrew Paprocki wrote:
> On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Arthur David Olson wrote:
> >> I suppose there was no actual clock change.  The resolution #725 is not
> >> about changing clocks, it contains no such instructions whatsoever.
> >
> > According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Russia:
> >
> >    As a result [of decree #725] some districts of the Sakha Republic
> > switched from Vladivostok Time to Yakutsk Time (Zone 7):
> >         Tomponsky District
> >         Ust-Maysky District
> >     Some districts switched from Magadan Time to Vladivostok Time:
> >         Oymyakonsky District (Sakha Republic)
> >         Kurilsky District and Yuzhno-Kurilsky District (Sakhalin Oblast)
> >
> > These switches are what would require clock changes; the question is, when
> > did they change?
> 
> http://www.rosbalt.ru/main/2011/09/01/885098.html
> 
> "From 2:00 am October 30, 2011 is proposed to transfer Primorsky Krai
> and the Republic of Sakha (Yakutia) for the seventh time zone (plus 6
> hours to Moscow time), and the Irkutsk region - the fifth time zone
> (plus 4 hours to Moscow time). Today in these regions, the difference
> in time to Moscow more than one hour."

No, this article talks about a draft resolution (it used to be on
http://www.minpromtorg.gov.ru/ site, now you can find its copy at
http://www.worldtimezone.com/dst_news/dst_news_russia33.html), the final
edition neither transfers Primorsky Krai and the Irkutsk region nor
specifies the exact date and time of clock changes.

--

-- 
ldv
Tobias Conradi | 7 May 06:12 2012
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Re: [tz] Sakha Republic bugs - eight months passed - still not fixed

On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 1:44 AM, Dmitry V. Levin <ldv <at> altlinux.org> wrote:
> On Sat, May 05, 2012 at 04:06:42PM -0400, Arthur David Olson wrote:
...
>> Tobias Conradi combines Wikipedia's "on or after 7 days following the day
>> of the official publication"
>> with www.rg.ru's "Date of first official publication: September 6, 2011" to
>> get
>> September 13, 2011 as the cutover date (unusually, a Tuesday, as Tobias
>> Conradi notes).
>>
>> None of the sources indicates a time of day for changing clocks.
>
> I suppose there was no actual clock change.  The resolution #725 is not
> about changing clocks, it contains no such instructions whatsoever.
It replaces old instructions, which can result in changes. Details
supporting this have been provided at
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-May/017688.html

Still, it can be wrong, but then it would be nice to see evidence for
an error in the above reasoning.

>> Is September 13 the right date? What's the right time of day?
>
> Assuming that the day is "after September 13", one can suppose
> it should be 00:00 of September 14.
According to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time_in_Russia
DST changes have been carried out 02:00 local time.

So maybe the 00:00 is local time (before the change). But depending on
the direction of the move that could mean a repetition of the time
between 23:00 and 24:00 - has anyone seen that happening in Russia in
the last 20 years? Maybe someone who can Google in Russian can search
for changeover time, maybe trying to find 00:00 or 02:00?

--

-- 
Tobias Conradi
Rheinsberger Str. 18
10115 Berlin
Germany

http://tobiasconradi.com/

SM | 7 May 10:50 2012
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Re: [tz] Sakha Republic bugs - eight months passed - still not fixed

At 16:44 05-05-2012, Dmitry V. Levin wrote:
>I suppose there was no actual clock change.  The resolution #725 is not
>about changing clocks, it contains no such instructions whatsoever.

   "Most countries set the clock back one hour Sunday 30 October 2011 at
    3:00 to a time which actually is the standard time. Russia retains,
    however, the summer time (UTC+4)."

http://russia-media.ru/miscellaneous/morenews.php?iditem=208

   "Was scrapping winter time a good move"

www.sptimes.ru/archive/pdf/1693.pdf

Regards,
-sm 

Tobias Conradi | 7 May 15:31 2012
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Re: [tz] Sakha Republic bugs - eight months passed - still not fixed

On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 10:50 AM, SM <sm <at> resistor.net> wrote:
> At 16:44 05-05-2012, Dmitry V. Levin wrote:
>>
>> I suppose there was no actual clock change.  The resolution #725 is not
>> about changing clocks, it contains no such instructions whatsoever.
>
>
>  "Most countries set the clock back one hour Sunday 30 October 2011 at
>   3:00 to a time which actually is the standard time. Russia retains,
>   however, the summer time (UTC+4)."
"Most countries" - I don't believe this.

Anyway this refers to DST change, not to decree #725 zone layout, so
has no effect on the reasoning at
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-May/017688.html
which lead to the conclusion that three uluses in Sakha Republic
behaved different to the other uluses in their respective tz zone.

> http://russia-media.ru/miscellaneous/morenews.php?iditem=208
>
>  "Was scrapping winter time a good move"
>
> www.sptimes.ru/archive/pdf/1693.pdf
"He [=Putin] said that although
Medvedev had signed the law, it hadn’t
been prepared by the president himself
and that it was possible that something
had not been thought through completely.
Putin added that he always finds it
difficult to get up in the morning."

--

-- 
Tobias Conradi
Rheinsberger Str. 18
10115 Berlin
Germany

http://tobiasconradi.com/

Andrew Paprocki | 6 May 02:10 2012

Re: [tz] Sakha Republic bugs - eight months passed - still not fixed

On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Arthur David Olson
<arthurdavidolson <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> Is September 13 the right date? What's the right time of day?
> Do any Russian newspapers front pages provide clues? Thanks for any light
> folks can shed.

Published on the BBC Ex-USSR newswire on September 11, 2011 was:
"Programme summary of Khabarovsk's Guberniya TV weekly news 0800 GMT"

"8. 1120 Soon Maritime Territory will become one hour closer to the
Moscow time zone than Khabarovsk, presenter says. Correspondent
details the changes in the time zones distribution in Russia over a
map. Deputies of the regional legislative assembly lobbied for a
six-hour difference with Moscow too, but fortunately, the region has
preserved its status quo. Correspondent talks about other regions
where a time shift has taken place. Video shows a deputy advocating a
time shift for the territory and people protesting against the idea."

Given that it says "Soon ... will become" on September 11th, that
rules out September 6th. Although it does not explicitly say September
13th, that interpretation makes sense.

-Andrew

Andrew Paprocki | 6 May 03:17 2012

Re: [tz] Sakha Republic bugs - eight months passed - still not fixed

On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Andrew Paprocki <andrew <at> ishiboo.com> wrote:
> On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Arthur David Olson
> <arthurdavidolson <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>> Is September 13 the right date? What's the right time of day?
>> Do any Russian newspapers front pages provide clues? Thanks for any light
>> folks can shed.
>
> Published on the BBC Ex-USSR newswire on September 11, 2011 was:
> "Programme summary of Khabarovsk's Guberniya TV weekly news 0800 GMT"
>
> "8. 1120 Soon Maritime Territory will become one hour closer to the
> Moscow time zone than Khabarovsk, presenter says. Correspondent
> details the changes in the time zones distribution in Russia over a
> map. Deputies of the regional legislative assembly lobbied for a
> six-hour difference with Moscow too, but fortunately, the region has
> preserved its status quo. Correspondent talks about other regions
> where a time shift has taken place. Video shows a deputy advocating a
> time shift for the territory and people protesting against the idea."
>
> Given that it says "Soon ... will become" on September 11th, that
> rules out September 6th. Although it does not explicitly say September
> 13th, that interpretation makes sense.
>
> -Andrew

Also found this, indicating September 12th is the official date:

http://www.rg.ru/2011/09/13/vremya.html

"Yesterday came into force was published in the "Russian newspaper"
September 6 government decree , under which the territory of Russia is
set nine time zones, and transition to "winter" time is canceled."

http://img.rg.ru/img/content/52/39/07/5579_3.gif


Gmane