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Atte André Jensen | 17 Aug 2010 13:29
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jerky movements with .MTS files

Hi

I know next to nothing about video but was pleased to find that I could 
easily edit the files of my canon hf200 into a "real movie" with kino. I 
then made a DVD with mandvd, but watching the result on my 42" HD LCD tv 
was quite a disappointment, unfortunately. When there's movement in the 
video, it's quite jerly, like the movement goes a bit in the right 
direction, a tiny bit back, a bit in the right direction, a tiny bit 
back and so on. It's doesn't look like camera shake, esp since 1) the 
camera has image stabilizer and 2) the videos play back just great with 
the camera connected directly to the tv via hdmi.

Although the result seems worse on the final dvd on the tv, there seems 
to be already traces of the problem in the .MTS.dv files made by kino 
upon import. This leads me to believe that the problem is in fact in the 
import process, handled by /usr/share/kino/scripts/import/media.sh. I 
looked and it seems that media.sh converts the video to either 25 fps or 
30000/1001 fps. I looked in the camera menus and the camera is set to it 
default frame rate of 50i, setting it to "pf25" (I asume this means 
non-interlaced 25 fps). A quick test suggests that setting this to 
"pf25" gets rid of the problem, but that was a really quick test, so...

In any case, it doesn't help with my 400+ files already recorded on 50i. 
So, I'm looking for any advice on how to get rid of this annoying 
problem. Any thoughts or anything I should try? I could mail a 
problematic .MTS file, it that would help in tracking down the problem.

NB: I noticed that when exporting the video (at least with "YUV 
film-like") kino outputs "Stream is interlaced, bottom-field-first" in 
the terminal, dunno if this information is relevant... However using
(Continue reading)

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Dan Dennedy | 17 Aug 2010 19:25
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Re: jerky movements with .MTS files

On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 4:29 AM, Atte André Jensen <atte <at> email.dk> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I know next to nothing about video but was pleased to find that I could
> easily edit the files of my canon hf200 into a "real movie" with kino. I
> then made a DVD with mandvd, but watching the result on my 42" HD LCD tv
> was quite a disappointment, unfortunately. When there's movement in the
> video, it's quite jerly, like the movement goes a bit in the right
> direction, a tiny bit back, a bit in the right direction, a tiny bit
> back and so on. It's doesn't look like camera shake, esp since 1) the

You very well described incorrect field order in interlaced output.

> camera has image stabilizer and 2) the videos play back just great with
> the camera connected directly to the tv via hdmi.
>
> Although the result seems worse on the final dvd on the tv, there seems
> to be already traces of the problem in the .MTS.dv files made by kino
> upon import. This leads me to believe that the problem is in fact in the
> import process, handled by /usr/share/kino/scripts/import/media.sh. I

The import script makes no attempt to properly handle field order and
transcode with interlace signaling in tact. In fact, since you are
scaling down the video resolution, you do not want to mix interlace
fields during scaling interpolation.

> looked and it seems that media.sh converts the video to either 25 fps or
> 30000/1001 fps. I looked in the camera menus and the camera is set to it
> default frame rate of 50i, setting it to "pf25" (I asume this means
> non-interlaced 25 fps). A quick test suggests that setting this to
(Continue reading)

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Dan Dennedy | 17 Aug 2010 19:27
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Re: jerky movements with .MTS files

On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Dan Dennedy <dan <at> dennedy.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 4:29 AM, Atte André Jensen <atte <at> email.dk> wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> I know next to nothing about video but was pleased to find that I could
>> easily edit the files of my canon hf200 into a "real movie" with kino. I
>> then made a DVD with mandvd, but watching the result on my 42" HD LCD tv
>> was quite a disappointment, unfortunately. When there's movement in the
>> video, it's quite jerly, like the movement goes a bit in the right
>> direction, a tiny bit back, a bit in the right direction, a tiny bit
>> back and so on. It's doesn't look like camera shake, esp since 1) the
>
> You very well described incorrect field order in interlaced output.
>
>> camera has image stabilizer and 2) the videos play back just great with
>> the camera connected directly to the tv via hdmi.
>>
>> Although the result seems worse on the final dvd on the tv, there seems
>> to be already traces of the problem in the .MTS.dv files made by kino
>> upon import. This leads me to believe that the problem is in fact in the
>> import process, handled by /usr/share/kino/scripts/import/media.sh. I
>
> The import script makes no attempt to properly handle field order and
> transcode with interlace signaling in tact. In fact, since you are
> scaling down the video resolution, you do not want to mix interlace
> fields during scaling interpolation.
>
>> looked and it seems that media.sh converts the video to either 25 fps or
>> 30000/1001 fps. I looked in the camera menus and the camera is set to it
>> default frame rate of 50i, setting it to "pf25" (I asume this means
(Continue reading)

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Atte André Jensen | 17 Aug 2010 23:02
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Re: jerky movements with .MTS files

On 2010-08-17 19:27, Dan Dennedy wrote:

Wow. Thanks for a most kind, fortcoming and helpful mail!

 >> $ melt some.mts -consumer avformat:some.dv pix_fmt=yuv420p
 >>
 >
 > You might want to add "progressive=1" onto the end of that command.
 > Otherwise, the output will be signalled as interlaced, which it
 > actually would not longer be.

I didn't take it all the way through mandvd->DVD->dvd player->TV, but 
looking at it in kino, the movements seems just as jerky, unfortunately :-(

I'm using melt 0.5.4, which I seemed I already had installed, probably 
came with something else (I'm using ubuntu 10.4). Could the problem be 
due to an outdated version? Or am I missing something?

A minor detail: players will see the files comming out of this command 
as 4:3, when they are in fact 16:9. Not a big deal, since I have 16:9 
set in the kino prefs, forcing kino to treat them as 16:9...

In any case I'm pleased to learn that what I experienced is not "just 
me", but a well-known problem with interlaced video! Would I loose 
anything, quality-wise, by using non-interlaced 25fps from now on 
instead of interlaced 50fps (if I read the setting in the camera correctly)?

I hope to get this solved :-)

--

--
(Continue reading)

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Dan Dennedy | 17 Aug 2010 23:45
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Re: jerky movements with .MTS files

On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Atte André Jensen <atte <at> email.dk> wrote:
> On 2010-08-17 19:27, Dan Dennedy wrote:
>
> Wow. Thanks for a most kind, fortcoming and helpful mail!
>
>>> $ melt some.mts -consumer avformat:some.dv pix_fmt=yuv420p
>>>
>>
>> You might want to add "progressive=1" onto the end of that command.
>> Otherwise, the output will be signalled as interlaced, which it
>> actually would not longer be.
>
> I didn't take it all the way through mandvd->DVD->dvd player->TV, but
> looking at it in kino, the movements seems just as jerky, unfortunately :-(

If the jerky playback on computer is similar to the jerky playback on
DVD->TV, then it is probably not field order. Incorrect field order is
very difficult to perceive on a progressive display. Can you provide a
short MTS sample that also exhibits this after being converted? You
can mail me privately a rapidshare.com link to dan -at- dennedy.org.

> I'm using melt 0.5.4, which I seemed I already had installed, probably came
> with something else (I'm using ubuntu 10.4). Could the problem be due to an
> outdated version? Or am I missing something?

That is not very old.

> A minor detail: players will see the files comming out of this command as
> 4:3, when they are in fact 16:9. Not a big deal, since I have 16:9 set in
> the kino prefs, forcing kino to treat them as 16:9...
(Continue reading)

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Atte André Jensen | 18 Aug 2010 08:52
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Re: jerky movements with .MTS files

On 2010-08-17 23:45, Dan Dennedy wrote:

> If the jerky playback on computer is similar to the jerky playback on
> DVD->TV, then it is probably not field order. Incorrect field order is
> very difficult to perceive on a progressive display. Can you provide a
> short MTS sample that also exhibits this after being converted? You
> can mail me privately a rapidshare.com link to dan -at- dennedy.org.

It might be just me being used to seeing the same file on the tv (with 
problems) and on the computer (without problems). I'll try it on the tv 
tomorrow. If the problem is not solved by using melt, I'll see if I can 
find a short problematic file and mail it off list.

>> I'm using melt 0.5.4, which I seemed I already had installed, probably came
>> with something else (I'm using ubuntu 10.4). Could the problem be due to an
>> outdated version? Or am I missing something?
>
> That is not very old.

Ok.

>> A minor detail: players will see the files comming out of this command as
>> 4:3, when they are in fact 16:9. Not a big deal, since I have 16:9 set in
>> the kino prefs, forcing kino to treat them as 16:9...
>
> $ melt -profile dv_pal_wide ...

It still plays back in vlc as 4:3 :-(

> 50i is better at capturing motion than 25p. However, if you are
(Continue reading)

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Dan Dennedy | 18 Aug 2010 20:42
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Re: jerky movements with .MTS files

On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 11:52 PM, Atte André Jensen <atte <at> email.dk> wrote:
> On 2010-08-17 23:45, Dan Dennedy wrote:
>>> A minor detail: players will see the files comming out of this command as
>>> 4:3, when they are in fact 16:9. Not a big deal, since I have 16:9 set in
>>> the kino prefs, forcing kino to treat them as 16:9...
>>
>> $ melt -profile dv_pal_wide ...
>
> It still plays back in vlc as 4:3 :-(
>

This is a bug in the raw DV demuxer in libavformat as used by VLC and
many other players but for which I have made workarounds (on reading)
within Kino and MLT. What is even more odd is that if I change the
melt command to output DV AVI ffprobe indicates DAR 16:9, yet ffplay
still plays it as 4:3. Go figure. :-) Quicktime on OS X plays the raw
DV correctly in anamorphic widescreen.

--

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