Daniel Jircik | 17 Sep 06:59
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Re: Marble and Clay [quote Walter Murch]

Thanks for that refreshing read. As an old film editor with a lot of Moviola/Kem experience I think these are some great architectural points.
----------------
"The Moviola system "emulsifies" the film into little bits (individual shots)
and then the editor reassembles it out of those bits, like making
something out of clay. You take a little bit of clay and you stick it
here and you take another little bit of clay and you stick it there.
At the beginning of the process there is nothing in front of you,
then there is something in front of you, and then there is finally
the finished thing all built up out of little clay bricks, little
pellets of information."
--------------
When you cut on Moviolas you cut all the pieces out of your stock with sound from bins. Sticking one after the other in order until you have a movie . This works great and fast and is actually quite fun. The problem arises with the inability work multi-track or  multi-camera.

Cinelerra is very much the Moviola system in that you have "The Viewer" and "The Compositor" This is  analogous to creating your clips in the Viewer and syncing up film sound on a sync block with a splicer , taping them together and dumping them into bins.

---------------
"With the KEM system, I don't ever break the film down into individual
shots -- I leave it in then-minute rolls in the order in which it came
from the lab. In sculptural terms, this is like a block of marble -- the
sculpture is already there, hidden within the stone, and you reveal it
by taking away, rather than building it up piece by piece from nothing,
as you do with clay."
--------------

 I used a first generation moviola flatbed , moving on to a 2 head Steenbeck. With 2 audio tracks you were working with four "chunks of marble" The beauty of this system is the ability to lock, unlock, and jog transport with impunity. Cut snip and move on down the line.   Now it's no longer the editing room it's the editing suite.

--------------
"Computerized digital editing and, strangely enough, good old-fashioned
Moviola editing with an editing assistant, are both random access,
non-linear systems: You ask for something specific and that thing --
that thing alone -- is delivered to you as quickly as possible. You are
only shown what you ask for. The Avid is faster at it than the Moviola,
but the process is the same."
---------------

Strictly from a user perspective to turn the room into a suitte here is how i would envision it.

Creating a new project would be essentially the same , separate windows for viewer, compositor timeline
With the Steenbeck you can click a button and shuttle something forward reverse click the button again and playback in sync.

When you add a video track, you should be able to open it up in a separate viewer. Use the viewer to jog back and forth lining up your shot then locking it to the master timeline control. Then instead of making clips and overwriting into the timeline just specify in, out points, being able to attach transitions to that point. wipe dissolve etc. That way comparative decisions are easier to make as well as change. The same should apply to audio as well. Playback transport that you can lock and unlock to the master timeline. Dragging a mouse over something and moving it one way or the other and seeing how it works is not the same  as running side by side. T his is where a midi jog wheel interface would shine.

Taking that concept one step further, The viewer itself should be a sub itertation of the whole program. Thus being able to make whole decision lists into "clips". This would vastly simplify dealing with large complex projects that need to be broken up into manageble chunks, ie: scenes.

My 2 cents.

Kind Regards,
Daniel Jircik
http://reggaecobras.com

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Ichthyostega | 18 Sep 05:11
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Re: Marble and Clay [quote Walter Murch]


Thanks for your detailed answers and all the good points you made.
More and more I get the impression that we really need to
support those two dual approaches to editing.

Hey, we need a "marble mode"...!

Daniel Jircik schrieb:
> To me, speaking as someone who has experiance with a lot of editing 
> technology from the dawn of time, dragging a mouse over a timeline 
> and pulling or pushing one way or the other is a de-evolution of the
>  interactive aesthetic. Functional yes but lacking finesse.

Agreed. Plus it bears the danger of getting addicted to the look of
an individual still frame and to do too much frame wise tweaking of
plugin automation.

Of course, as we all know, this creates new artisitc possibilities.
You can build up something similar to a musical score. Necessitating
to be able to navigate, access, adjust and trim every part. So we
really need an object manipulation "perspective", in which you can
look around, expand and collapse objects, change the way they are
attached to each other, access properties of each, drag and tewak
with the mouse, etc.
I think we should make this "clay perspective" usable (i.e. not
too tedious to work with in a larger project), but try not to
limit it too much in order to get a "simple" UI.

> "With the KEM system, I don't ever break the film down into 
> individual shots -- I leave it in then-minute rolls in the order in 
> which it came from the lab."
> --------------
> 
> I used a first generation moviola flatbed, moving on to a 2 head 
> Steenbeck. With 2 audio tracks you were working with four "chunks of
> marble" The beauty of this system is the ability to lock, unlock,
> and jog transport with impunity. Cut snip and move on down the line.
> Now it's no longer the editing room it's the editing suite.

Thus we should try to envision a alternative working mode of the
GUI, let's call it the "marble perspective". In this one, we could
deliberately leave out some details of the attachement and wiring of
the individual media objects and rather go for a scheme like R.C.Barnes
seems to be after: show attached effects just as a specially marked
range. I would even go as far as to say: don't care for the details
of the mixing, don't care to show how sidechained effects are wired
up, just show that there is an adornment. But stress the temporal
aspect, i.e. the in/out points, the length of transitions.

Thus the goal here should be to get the GUI layout rather compact
in vertical direction -- which would allow us to stack two or
even three of these simple timeline-working areas vertically.
Of course, each one would have it's corresponding viewer window.
Transports can be locked together, displaced and moved individually.

> With the Steenbeck you can click a button and shuttle something 
> forward reverse click the button again and playback in sync.
> 
> When you add a video track, you should be able to open it up in a 
> separate viewer. Use the viewer to jog back and forth lining up your
> shot then locking it to the master timeline control. Then instead of
> making clips and overwriting into the timeline just specify in, out
> points, being able to attach transitions to that point. wipe
> dissolve etc. That way comparative decisions are easier to make as
> well as change.

Thus, there should be a "displace control". When you hover it with the
mouse and use the mouse wheel, the two related transport positions
will be displaced. Maybe with acceleration. We should try to build
this control such that later on we can bind MIDI or other events
from external control surfaces to it.

Besides, we should think how we could mark a range in one of those
timelines and spill it over to another timeline.

To translate this into an implementation sketch:

opening a media --> create clip containing whole media
                --> on-the-fly create new EDL containing this clip
                --> allocate the next usable timeline display for it

Which basically means: EDLs are a cheap resource. You can just use
them as throwaway as you go, or you can elaborate some EDL and
add it as meta-clip to another EDL, or even develop it into
"the" master EDL as you see fit.

We could even add to this the ability to create on-the-fly a new
EDL with the contents of a given clip bin (using the order the clips
are placed within as a temporal ordering). This would be a very cheap
implementation of the "storyboard mode" or "sparse timeline" several
people asked for.

Does this make sense?

Cheers,
Hermann V.

PS: the way I am planning/implementing it in the Proc-Layer, we
probably will have point marks and range markers in Lumiera, and
they can be attached by a placement like any other media object,
i.e. absolute, relative, to a clip, to a media source location.
Jay Truesdale | 17 Sep 22:40
Favicon

Re: Marble and Clay [quote Walter Murch]

Rumor has it Avid is developing a virtual steenbeck editor based on the new
microsoft touch surface.

Touch screen is becoming more common, and it's something to think about for
future support.  Perhaps even as an alternate editing interface mode?

 -Jay Truesdale
_____________________________________________
Northern/Southern California Cinematographer/Producer
(and now final cut editing instructor - ack!)
website: www.emrl.com/j
blog: www.jaytruesdale.blogspot.com
_____________________________________________
Christian Thaeter | 18 Sep 00:25

Re: Marble and Clay [quote Walter Murch]

Jay Truesdale wrote:
> Rumor has it Avid is developing a virtual steenbeck editor based on the new
> microsoft touch surface.
> 
> Touch screen is becoming more common, and it's something to think about for
> future support.  Perhaps even as an alternate editing interface mode?
> 
>  -Jay Truesdale

apropos controler, whats about this http://www.3dconnexion.com/ ? never 
seen them in real, but might be useful, maybe someone donates one to 
joel to play with it :)

	Christian
IL'dar AKHmetgaleev | 18 Sep 04:19
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Re: Marble and Clay [quote Walter Murch]

На Thu, 18 Sep 2008 00:25:13 +0200
Christian Thaeter <ct <at> pipapo.org> записано:

> apropos controler, whats about this http://www.3dconnexion.com/ ?
> never seen them in real, but might be useful, maybe someone donates
> one to joel to play with it :)

Simple game joystick or gamepad can be used as space navigator. And
costs much cheaper.

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Martin Ellison | 19 Sep 04:31
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Favicon

Re: Marble and Clay [quote Walter Murch]

Quite so... gamepads/joysticks are designed to be used by touch, are the result of a long history of continuous improvement, are cheap, and are readily obtainable. If Lumiera could be designed to optionally use gamepads/joysticks, it would make her much more usable.

2008/9/18 IL'dar AKHmetgaleev <akhilman <at> gmail.com>
На Thu, 18 Sep 2008 00:25:13 +0200
Christian Thaeter <ct <at> pipapo.org> записано:

> apropos controler, whats about this http://www.3dconnexion.com/ ?
> never seen them in real, but might be useful, maybe someone donates
> one to joel to play with it :)

Simple game joystick or gamepad can be used as space navigator. And
costs much cheaper.

--
Regards,
Martin
(m.e <at> acm.org)
IT: http://methodsupport.com Personal: http://thereisnoend.org
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Daniel Jircik | 17 Sep 23:27
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Re: Marble and Clay [quote Walter Murch]

Touch screen would be cool but there really is something tactile about a jog wheel which is why I mentioned midi jog wheel. Either way the ability to run tracks in relation to each other and fine tune positioning is what's sorely lacking in all NLE digital based systems. Historically speaking film died but much of that experience survived in tape based linear editing systems. Jog shuttle, lock ins and outs . A roll B roll retc.

To me, speaking as someone who has experiance with a lot of editing technology from the dawn of time, dragging a mouse over a timeline and pulling or pushing one way or the other is a de-evolution of the interactive aesthetic. Functional yes but lacking finesse.

If I had a multi camera shoot and had the choice between a tape based linear A B roll system or an NLE I would choose the tape based system as it would be infinitely faster at making comparative judgements. But hey I'm an old fart and I like analogue tape hiss. :-)

ciao
Daniel



On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 8:40 PM, Jay Truesdale <cinejay-vKy0d3RQ7N4@public.gmane.org> wrote:
Rumor has it Avid is developing a virtual steenbeck editor based on the new
microsoft touch surface.

Touch screen is becoming more common, and it's something to think about for
future support.  Perhaps even as an alternate editing interface mode?

 -Jay Truesdale
_____________________________________________
Northern/Southern California Cinematographer/Producer
(and now final cut editing instructor - ack!)
website: www.emrl.com/j
blog: www.jaytruesdale.blogspot.com
_____________________________________________

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mexicorarara | 18 Sep 00:10

Re: tape based editing

Daniel Jircik schrieb:
> If I had a multi camera shoot and had the choice between a tape based 
> linear A B roll system or an NLE I would choose the tape based system 
> as it would be infinitely faster at making comparative judgements. But 
> hey I'm an old fart and I like analogue tape hiss. :-)
well i dont know, did you edit with avid or fcp multicam ? works quite 
nicely.
i think the real loss in the psychology of film editing (murch talks 
about this too in his book), is that in film days, you were destroying 
something to create something new. i mean: you were actually cutting a 
piece of film, making it impossible to create endless variations etc.... 
for me Linear Tape Based editing was just a pita... but anyway, we 
probably were the last ones in filmschool who had to learn to work on 
it, i think it is extinct now (in german film schools). the only thing 
that really bothers me if somebody comes up to my NLE editing room and 
asks me to pull a dub of a 60 minutes tape on a NLE system...
Daniel Jircik | 18 Sep 04:34
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Re: tape based editing

I have not used fcp multicam but that's exactly what we are talking about but I could envisage the interface and interactions simplified in our example.

Add Video Track
Right Click to Open Viewer on that track
Viewer Has Button and centered slider.
Button locks unlocks transport sync to master timeline.
Use slider (or midi jogwheel) to position track Fwd-Rev with incremental speed on centered slider
If you go to either end of the clip when not synced to the master it will drag or pull the clip on the timeline,
Inpoint Outpoint on viewer tells master timeline when to take
Be able to drag and drop transitions onto those in out points

BTW I know someone that has an upright 35mm moviola with 3 soundheads. It's as big as a small car. He will give it to anyone willing to haul it away. Looks to be in mint condition.

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 10:10 PM, mexicorarara <mexicorarara-gM/Ye1E23mwN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> wrote:
Daniel Jircik schrieb:
> If I had a multi camera shoot and had the choice between a tape based
> linear A B roll system or an NLE I would choose the tape based system
> as it would be infinitely faster at making comparative judgements. But
> hey I'm an old fart and I like analogue tape hiss. :-)
well i dont know, did you edit with avid or fcp multicam ? works quite
nicely.
i think the real loss in the psychology of film editing (murch talks
about this too in his book), is that in film days, you were destroying
something to create something new. i mean: you were actually cutting a
piece of film, making it impossible to create endless variations etc....
for me Linear Tape Based editing was just a pita... but anyway, we
probably were the last ones in filmschool who had to learn to work on
it, i think it is extinct now (in german film schools). the only thing
that really bothers me if somebody comes up to my NLE editing room and
asks me to pull a dub of a 60 minutes tape on a NLE system...
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mexicorarara | 17 Sep 23:06

Re: Marble and Clay [quote Walter Murch]

Jay Truesdale schrieb:
> Rumor has it Avid is developing a virtual steenbeck editor based on the new
> microsoft touch surface.
>
> Touch screen is becoming more common, and it's something to think about for
> future support.  Perhaps even as an alternate editing interface mode?
>   
there have been steenbeck editing controllers for avid a long time. i 
was working somewhere where they had it (in 1998). nobody used it. it 
was great for in film days, but really... who needs this nowadays. 
graphic tablet - ok, very nice to work with that, but anything else i 
never wanted to use.
Jay Truesdale | 17 Sep 23:24
Favicon

Re: Marble and Clay [quote Walter Murch]

Isn't that a hardware controller?  I would think a multi-touch screen interface
would open up a lot of possibilities...

-Jay Truesdale

> Jay Truesdale schrieb:
>> Rumor has it Avid is developing a virtual steenbeck editor based on the new
>> microsoft touch surface.
>>
>> Touch screen is becoming more common, and it's something to think about for
>> future support.  Perhaps even as an alternate editing interface mode?
>>
> there have been steenbeck editing controllers for avid a long time. i
> was working somewhere where they had it (in 1998). nobody used it. it
> was great for in film days, but really... who needs this nowadays.
> graphic tablet - ok, very nice to work with that, but anything else i
> never wanted to use.

_____________________________________________
Northern/Southern California Cinematographer
cell: (916) 475-2613
website: www.emrl.com/j
e-mail: cinejay(at)emrl.com
blog: www.jaytruesdale.blogspot.com
_____________________________________________
mexicorarara | 18 Sep 00:02

Re: Steenbeck controller

i can imagine a multitouch interface to an editing program to be quite 
nice, i just dont understand the "steenbeck" part to be especially 
progressive. the steenbeck controller i know is a little hole in the 
steenbeck table and inside is a knob which makes the reels move in 
variable speeds... but maybe i understood something wrong... interesting 
would be this too, especially for an editing program which has a lot of 
windows to handle usually.

Head Tracking for Desktop VR Displays (using the WiiRemote)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

Jay Truesdale schrieb:
> Isn't that a hardware controller?  I would think a multi-touch screen interface
> would open up a lot of possibilities...
>
> -Jay Truesdale
>
>   
>> Jay Truesdale schrieb:
>>     
>>> Rumor has it Avid is developing a virtual steenbeck editor based on the new
>>> microsoft touch surface.
>>>
>>> Touch screen is becoming more common, and it's something to think about for
>>> future support.  Perhaps even as an alternate editing interface mode?
>>>
>>>       
>> there have been steenbeck editing controllers for avid a long time. i
>> was working somewhere where they had it (in 1998). nobody used it. it
>> was great for in film days, but really... who needs this nowadays.
>> graphic tablet - ok, very nice to work with that, but anything else i
>> never wanted to use.
>>     
>
> _____________________________________________
> Northern/Southern California Cinematographer
> cell: (916) 475-2613
> website: www.emrl.com/j
> e-mail: cinejay(at)emrl.com
> blog: www.jaytruesdale.blogspot.com
> _____________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lumiera mailing list
> Lumiera@...
> http://lists.lumiera.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lumiera
>
>   
Daniel Jircik | 18 Sep 00:55
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Re: Steenbeck controller

Well actually it was a recessed lever knob and  a button. The button locks/unlocks tracks to run independent or sync. The point I was trying to make that that rudimentary human interface gives you all the control you need, versus pulling a mouse across something tweeking it in or out and then seeing if it really works. Editorially speaking it's important (to me at least) to be able to look at multiple tracks side by side and make comparative judgements.

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 10:02 PM, mexicorarara <mexicorarara-gM/Ye1E23mwN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> wrote:
i can imagine a multitouch interface to an editing program to be quite
nice, i just dont understand the "steenbeck" part to be especially
progressive. the steenbeck controller i know is a little hole in the
steenbeck table and inside is a knob which makes the reels move in
variable speeds... but maybe i understood something wrong... interesting
would be this too, especially for an editing program which has a lot of
windows to handle usually.

Head Tracking for Desktop VR Displays (using the WiiRemote)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

Jay Truesdale schrieb:
> Isn't that a hardware controller?  I would think a multi-touch screen interface
> would open up a lot of possibilities...
>
> -Jay Truesdale
>
>
>> Jay Truesdale schrieb:
>>
>>> Rumor has it Avid is developing a virtual steenbeck editor based on the new
>>> microsoft touch surface.
>>>
>>> Touch screen is becoming more common, and it's something to think about for
>>> future support.  Perhaps even as an alternate editing interface mode?
>>>
>>>
>> there have been steenbeck editing controllers for avid a long time. i
>> was working somewhere where they had it (in 1998). nobody used it. it
>> was great for in film days, but really... who needs this nowadays.
>> graphic tablet - ok, very nice to work with that, but anything else i
>> never wanted to use.
>>
>
> _____________________________________________
> Northern/Southern California Cinematographer
> cell: (916) 475-2613
> website: www.emrl.com/j
> e-mail: cinejay(at)emrl.com
> blog: www.jaytruesdale.blogspot.com
> _____________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lumiera mailing list
> Lumiera-aLEFhgZF4x639dL7tAm8iNi2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.lumiera.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lumiera
>
>

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Odin Omdal Hørthe | 17 Sep 22:53
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Re: Marble and Clay [quote Walter Murch]

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 10:40 PM, Jay Truesdale <cinejay@...> wrote:
> Rumor has it Avid is developing a virtual steenbeck editor based on the new
> microsoft touch surface.
>
> Touch screen is becoming more common, and it's something to think about for
> future support.  Perhaps even as an alternate editing interface mode?

X.Org is getting Multi Pointer support in the next version.

http://wearables.unisa.edu.au/mpx/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPX
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=mpx_master&num=1

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