General discussion on the Ion window manager.

Alexander Rink | 7 Apr 2010 18:21

Name of the fork / Voting

It seems that most of the recent participants of this mailing list prefer notion as the name for the forking
project. But there were other proposals like cation or nion. Should we do an "official" voting (maybe by
just by replying to this email with +1 for this or for that) or is the name notion now considered a given?

Hope that we get the ball rolling after this decision has been made...next will be choosing a project leader
(i would vote for Timandahaf) / chief developer (I would vote for M Rawash here), but this should be done in
another thread...

--

-- 
Alexander Rink <a.rink@...>
n

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Eider Oliveira | 7 Apr 2010 18:23

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

cation +1

anion -1

notion 0

Timandahaf +1

M Rawash +1

Eider Oliveira

Site: http://www.eider.blog.br
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/eider/

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Alexander Rink <a.rink <at> gmx.net> wrote:

It seems that most of the recent participants of this mailing list prefer notion as the name for the forking project. But there were other proposals like cation or nion. Should we do an "official" voting (maybe by just by replying to this email with +1 for this or for that) or is the name notion now considered a given?

Hope that we get the ball rolling after this decision has been made...next will be choosing a project leader (i would vote for Timandahaf) / chief developer (I would vote for M Rawash here), but this should be done in another thread...

--
Alexander Rink <a.rink-hi6Y0CQ0nG0@public.gmane.org>
n

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Alexander Rink | 7 Apr 2010 18:36

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

Seems like voting has started :)

nion +1

Project Leader : Timandahaf +1
Chief Developer: M Rawash +1, Ole Jørgen Brønner +1

On Wed, 7 Apr 2010 13:23:21 -0300
Eider Oliveira <eider.oliveira@...> wrote:

> cation +1
> anion -1
> notion 0
> Timandahaf +1
> M Rawash +1
> 
> Eider Oliveira
> 
> Site: http://www.eider.blog.br
> Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/eider/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Alexander Rink <a.rink@...> wrote:
> 
> > It seems that most of the recent participants of this mailing list prefer
> > notion as the name for the forking project. But there were other proposals
> > like cation or nion. Should we do an "official" voting (maybe by just by
> > replying to this email with +1 for this or for that) or is the name notion
> > now considered a given?
> >
> > Hope that we get the ball rolling after this decision has been made...next
> > will be choosing a project leader (i would vote for Timandahaf) / chief
> > developer (I would vote for M Rawash here), but this should be done in
> > another thread...
> >
> > --
> > Alexander Rink <a.rink@...>
> > n
> >

--

-- 
Alexander Rink <a.rink@...>

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Chad Kittel | 7 Apr 2010 19:40

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

ion-ng, that's all the rage (ng could mean anything really, e.g. Next
Generation, Now Good, Nude Girls, Not Grumpy)

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Alexander Rink <a.rink@...> wrote:
> It seems that most of the recent participants of this mailing list prefer notion as the name for the forking
project. But there were other proposals like cation or nion. Should we do an "official" voting (maybe by
just by replying to this email with +1 for this or for that) or is the name notion now considered a given?
>
> Hope that we get the ball rolling after this decision has been made...next will be choosing a project
leader (i would vote for Timandahaf) / chief developer (I would vote for M Rawash here), but this should be
done in another thread...
>
> --
> Alexander Rink <a.rink@...>
> n
>

--

-- 
  _
(\o/) Chad 'v3rt1g0' Kittel <chad.kittel@...>
 /_\  Beaver Dam, WI (USA)   [4 8 15 16 23 42]
"This is who we are."  //  http://twitter.com/ckittel

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M Rawash | 7 Apr 2010 20:17

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On Wed, 2010-04-07 at 18:21 +0200, Alexander Rink wrote:
> It seems that most of the recent participants of this mailing list
> prefer notion as the name for the forking project. But there were
> other proposals like cation or nion. Should we do an "official" voting
> (maybe by just by replying to this email with +1 for this or for that)
> or is the name notion now considered a given?

thanks for starting this, "notion" has got a serious challenger now,
"cation" (i don't get it!), so i agree, it's time to put it to a vote;
mine goes to "notion" so: 

+1 for notion

and just for reference, here are all the current contenders:

- notion
- cation
- nion
- neon
- ion-ng
- particleman

> Hope that we get the ball rolling after this decision has been
> made...next will be choosing a project leader (i would vote for
> Timandahaf) / chief developer (I would vote for M Rawash here), but
> this should be done in another thread...
> 
yes, this should definitely be discussed later, right now we just need a
name.

M Rawash

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Henri Salo | 7 Apr 2010 21:53

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

+1 for notion and +2 for fossvm ;)

---
Henri Salo

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Albert Shih | 7 Apr 2010 23:41

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

 Le 07/04/2010 à 20:17:20+0200, M Rawash a écrit
> On Wed, 2010-04-07 at 18:21 +0200, Alexander Rink wrote:
> > It seems that most of the recent participants of this mailing list
> > prefer notion as the name for the forking project. But there were
> > other proposals like cation or nion. Should we do an "official" voting
> > (maybe by just by replying to this email with +1 for this or for that)
> > or is the name notion now considered a given?
> 
> thanks for starting this, "notion" has got a serious challenger now,
> "cation" (i don't get it!), so i agree, it's time to put it to a vote;
> mine goes to "notion" so: 
> 
> +1 for notion

+1

> 
> and just for reference, here are all the current contenders:
> 
> - notion
> - cation
> - nion
> - neon
> - ion-ng
> - particleman
> 

JPO for ION + one letter (I-> J, O-> P, N-> O) like VMS --> WNT



Regards.

JAS

--

-- 
Albert SHIH
SIO batiment 15
Observatoire de Paris Meudon
5 Place Jules Janssen
92195 Meudon Cedex
Téléphone : 01 45 07 76 26/06 86 69 95 71
Heure local/Local time:
Mer 7 avr 2010 23:40:03 CEST

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panman | 8 Apr 2010 16:25

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

I'd like to suggest that it would be preferable if the word chosen for 
the new name be easily searchable. That is to say, someone doing a 
search for "notion howto" or "neon howto" are going to get all kinds of 
bad results.
>  Le 07/04/2010 à 20:17:20+0200, M Rawash a écrit
>   
>> On Wed, 2010-04-07 at 18:21 +0200, Alexander Rink wrote:
>>     
>>> It seems that most of the recent participants of this mailing list
>>> prefer notion as the name for the forking project. But there were
>>> other proposals like cation or nion. Should we do an "official" voting
>>> (maybe by just by replying to this email with +1 for this or for that)
>>> or is the name notion now considered a given?
>>>       
>> thanks for starting this, "notion" has got a serious challenger now,
>> "cation" (i don't get it!), so i agree, it's time to put it to a vote;
>> mine goes to "notion" so: 
>>
>> +1 for notion
>>     
>
> +1
>
>   
>> and just for reference, here are all the current contenders:
>>
>> - notion
>> - cation
>> - nion
>> - neon
>> - ion-ng
>> - particleman
>>
>>     
>
> JPO for ION + one letter (I-> J, O-> P, N-> O) like VMS --> WNT
>
> 
>
> Regards.
>
> JAS
>
>

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Marc Hartstein | 8 Apr 2010 17:21

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

Excerpts from panman's message of Thu Apr 08 10:25:25 -0400 2010:
> I'd like to suggest that it would be preferable if the word chosen for 
> the new name be easily searchable. That is to say, someone doing a 
> search for "notion howto" or "neon howto" are going to get all kinds of 
> bad results.

This is a good point, but looking around, I'm not so worried about it:

google: notion howto
about 65,100 results

google: neon howto
about 170,000 results

The notion hits don't look like they make a lot of sense; I suspect real
HOWTOs regarding a window manager named notion would sort quickly to the
top of the list.

The neon hits include a hit about the neon library on the first page.
Unlike the commercial software named notion, which is unlikely to cause
a lot of confusion, neon is a library which is likely to be on many
users' systems [I have it as a dependency of openoffice and subversion
for some reason I'd prefer not to theorize about].

++notion

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Klaus Umbach | 8 Apr 2010 17:43

Re: Name of the fork / Voting


On 08.04.10 11:21, Marc Hartstein wrote:
> Excerpts from panman's message of Thu Apr 08 10:25:25 -0400 2010:
> > I'd like to suggest that it would be preferable if the word chosen for 
> > the new name be easily searchable. That is to say, someone doing a 
> > search for "notion howto" or "neon howto" are going to get all kinds of 
> > bad results.
> 
> This is a good point, but looking around, I'm not so worried about it:

What about "wrtzlpfrpft"? There are no hits yet on google! It uses no
letter, ion uses and it has no vowels, which is a definite point for "not
Finnish".

-
	Klaus

> google: notion howto
> about 65,100 results
> 
> google: neon howto
> about 170,000 results
> 
> The notion hits don't look like they make a lot of sense; I suspect real
> HOWTOs regarding a window manager named notion would sort quickly to the
> top of the list.
> 
> The neon hits include a hit about the neon library on the first page.
> Unlike the commercial software named notion, which is unlikely to cause
> a lot of confusion, neon is a library which is likely to be on many
> users' systems [I have it as a dependency of openoffice and subversion
> for some reason I'd prefer not to theorize about].
> 
> ++notion

--

--

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panman | 8 Apr 2010 18:22

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

The way I wrote that was a little confusing. My meaning was (if I can do 
better this time) a search for debian+howto+notion will include any 
howto's for debian where someone had a notion since it's a common 
english word. Doing a search for various terms+notion generally finds 
hits from the presence of a sentence in the page about the notion of 
something or other. You're absolutely right, a legitimate page about a 
project called notion should rise above that sort of thing.

I was not however really thinking of the legitimate site for the 
project. Consider a search for statusbar+notion, lua+notion, 
maximized+notion, keybindings+notion. The point is notion doesn't do a 
very good job of focusing the hits in on this project. A post someone 
makes on their blog regarding their experiences with notion containing 
the exact solution some future user is looking for could be very 
difficult to find.

I found this to be the case with the name ion, without the '3' it's a 
very bad filter, and since people often drop the '3' in discussions 
about it, with the 3 it's a very bad filter.

> Excerpts from panman's message of Thu Apr 08 10:25:25 -0400 2010:
>   
>> I'd like to suggest that it would be preferable if the word chosen for 
>> the new name be easily searchable. That is to say, someone doing a 
>> search for "notion howto" or "neon howto" are going to get all kinds of 
>> bad results.
>>     
>
> This is a good point, but looking around, I'm not so worried about it:
>
> google: notion howto
> about 65,100 results
>
> google: neon howto
> about 170,000 results
>
> The notion hits don't look like they make a lot of sense; I suspect real
> HOWTOs regarding a window manager named notion would sort quickly to the
> top of the list.
>
> The neon hits include a hit about the neon library on the first page.
> Unlike the commercial software named notion, which is unlikely to cause
> a lot of confusion, neon is a library which is likely to be on many
> users' systems [I have it as a dependency of openoffice and subversion
> for some reason I'd prefer not to theorize about].
>
> ++notion
>

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M Rawash | 8 Apr 2010 21:30

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 09:22 -0700, panman wrote: 
> The way I wrote that was a little confusing. My meaning was (if I can do 
> better this time) a search for debian+howto+notion will include any 
> howto's for debian where someone had a notion since it's a common 
> english word. Doing a search for various terms+notion generally finds 
> hits from the presence of a sentence in the page about the notion of 
> something or other. You're absolutely right, a legitimate page about a 
> project called notion should rise above that sort of thing.
> 
> I was not however really thinking of the legitimate site for the 
> project. Consider a search for statusbar+notion, lua+notion, 
> maximized+notion, keybindings+notion. The point is notion doesn't do a 
> very good job of focusing the hits in on this project. A post someone 
> makes on their blog regarding their experiences with notion containing 
> the exact solution some future user is looking for could be very 
> difficult to find.
> 
> I found this to be the case with the name ion, without the '3' it's a 
> very bad filter, and since people often drop the '3' in discussions 
> about it, with the 3 it's a very bad filter.
> 

hmmm, we really should contact the "awesome" guys and ask them how they
do it...

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ebik | 8 Apr 2010 22:08

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

How did you searched for original ion(1)? I did it by:
  ion window manager
and got expected result. Or more often I put into google:
  ion window manager documentation
Did you ever tried to search the word "ion", or "ion howto"?

And my vote:

lion +1 - Lithium Ion, is third element in periodic table and the fork
          will be ion3plus based.

ᚅ(nion) +1

On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 21:30:24 +0200
M Rawash <mrawash@...> wrote:

> On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 09:22 -0700, panman wrote: 
> > The way I wrote that was a little confusing. My meaning was (if I
> > can do better this time) a search for debian+howto+notion will
> > include any howto's for debian where someone had a notion since
> > it's a common english word. Doing a search for various terms+notion
> > generally finds hits from the presence of a sentence in the page
> > about the notion of something or other. You're absolutely right, a
> > legitimate page about a project called notion should rise above
> > that sort of thing.
> > 
> > I was not however really thinking of the legitimate site for the 
> > project. Consider a search for statusbar+notion, lua+notion, 
> > maximized+notion, keybindings+notion. The point is notion doesn't
> > do a very good job of focusing the hits in on this project. A post
> > someone makes on their blog regarding their experiences with notion
> > containing the exact solution some future user is looking for could
> > be very difficult to find.
> > 
> > I found this to be the case with the name ion, without the '3' it's
> > a very bad filter, and since people often drop the '3' in
> > discussions about it, with the 3 it's a very bad filter.
> > 
> 
> hmmm, we really should contact the "awesome" guys and ask them how
> they do it... 
> 

--

-- 
                                 Tomáš 'ebík' Ebenlendr
                                 PF 2010.26826499873

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panman | 9 Apr 2010 16:04

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

M Rawash is right, developers / users of this new fork should pick this 
discussion up again once it exists.
>>> for now "notion" is the name of this fork, we will have more time to
>>> decide on a better name later, but right now we're moving on...
>>>
>>> new mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=314802
>>>
>>> please subscribe.
>>>       
>> Need to understand if most people will subscribe to the list then the
>> community will be agree in integral with this name, due to natural
>> inertia of group of people.
>>     
>
> more people have subscribed to the list than have posted here so far.
>
>   
>> And.. who made you chief?
>>     
>
> nobody, hence:
> https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=1270776985.4591.143.camel%40localhost&forum_name=notion-devel
>
> regards,
> M Rawash
>
>   
NotionWM, NucleusWM, some pretty good suggestions.
> Hi all,
>
> sorry for being late for the vote, I'd vote for "nion" and "notion".
>
> With an existing "Notion" software, there's a small chance in having
> problems and a big chance not being googlable, and THAT is a bigger
> problem IMNSHO, just as panman wrote. We can probably solve it by
> using the name "NotionWM" instead of just "Notion".
>
>   
>>> I'm not particularly good with coming up with names. ThinWM?
>>> TinyParticle? TilingMadeSimple? Quirk? (Told you I was terrible.)
>>>       
>
> If we're going to find new names, I'm no better, but the Wikipedia
> "ion" page is great for finding metaphors:
>
> * Aurora - sounds like a new, beautiful and exciting stuff
>   Competing on Google is the concept plane.
>
> * NucleusWM - sounds nice and would carry the idea of a small WM,
>   but there are many other uses for this word, even in software.
>
> * Faraday - he discovered and named the ions.
>   There are a lot of fun metaphors we can find ^^
>
> * Polyatomic - well, that's geeky :)
>
>
> Just my 2 cents,
>
>   
I've been using ion for a long time, I've searched for all sorts of 
things related to ion. ion+window+manager is, as I say, useful to find 
formal ion documentation, or the website, etc. It is not useful for 
searching for informal posts or blogs. People aren't generally that 
specific.
> How did you searched for original ion(1)? I did it by:
>   ion window manager
> and got expected result. Or more often I put into google:
>   ion window manager documentation
> Did you ever tried to search the word "ion", or "ion howto"?
>
> And my vote:
>
> lion +1 - Lithium Ion, is third element in periodic table and the fork
>           will be ion3plus based.
>
> ᚅ(nion) +1
>
> On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 21:30:24 +0200
> M Rawash <mrawash@...> wrote:
>
>   
>> On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 09:22 -0700, panman wrote: 
>>     
>>> The way I wrote that was a little confusing. My meaning was (if I
>>> can do better this time) a search for debian+howto+notion will
>>> include any howto's for debian where someone had a notion since
>>> it's a common english word. Doing a search for various terms+notion
>>> generally finds hits from the presence of a sentence in the page
>>> about the notion of something or other. You're absolutely right, a
>>> legitimate page about a project called notion should rise above
>>> that sort of thing.
>>>
>>> I was not however really thinking of the legitimate site for the 
>>> project. Consider a search for statusbar+notion, lua+notion, 
>>> maximized+notion, keybindings+notion. The point is notion doesn't
>>> do a very good job of focusing the hits in on this project. A post
>>> someone makes on their blog regarding their experiences with notion
>>> containing the exact solution some future user is looking for could
>>> be very difficult to find.
>>>
>>> I found this to be the case with the name ion, without the '3' it's
>>> a very bad filter, and since people often drop the '3' in
>>> discussions about it, with the 3 it's a very bad filter.
>>>
>>>       
>> hmmm, we really should contact the "awesome" guys and ask them how
>> they do it... 
>>
>>     
>
>
>

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M Rawash | 8 Apr 2010 02:28

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On Wed, 2010-04-07 at 20:17 +0200, M Rawash wrote:
> and just for reference, here are all the current contenders:
> 
> - notion
> - cation
> - nion
> - neon
> - ion-ng
> - particleman

here's the vote count as it stands now (based on all posts, not just
replies in this thread/one person, one vote, per name): 
- notion (8)
- cation (4)
- nion (5)
- neon (2)
- ion-ng (1)
- particleman (1)
- JPO (1)

i wouldn't say it's a "notion" blow out, but it's a win nonetheless.

now, if nobody will contest these results and/or question my
methodology, shouldn't it be time that we get down to some real business
(i.e. website/mailinglists/repos/etc..)?

regards,
M Rawash

---
PS: you can still vote for other names on the above list or suggest your
own (personally, i'm still torn between "notion" & "nion"), there's
still a slim chance that "notion" might be a temporary name.

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kevin granade | 7 Apr 2010 20:30

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

> It seems that most of the recent participants of this mailing list prefer notion as the name for the forking
project. But there were other proposals like cation or nion. Should we do an "official" voting (maybe by
just by replying to this email with +1 for this or for that) or is the name notion now considered a given?
>
> Hope that we get the ball rolling after this decision has been made...next will be choosing a project
leader (i would vote for Timandahaf) / chief developer (I would vote for M Rawash here), but this should be
done in another thread...
>
> --
> Alexander Rink <a.rink@...>
> n

From a trademark POV, all the suggested names suffer from the major
problem of incorporating the trademark in the name.  (see AOL v GAIM)
I know in this situation it is relatively safe to assume the trademark
holder isn't hostile, but I would still think it would be very
desirable to have a name that doesn't technically infringe the
trademark.

Unfortunately I don't have much in the way of alternatives to offer,
I'm not particularly good with coming up with names. ThinWM?
TinyParticle? TilingMadeSimple? Quirk? (Told you I was terrible.)

Tumov, I just wanted to express my heartfelt thanks for creating ion3
and making it available.  I've been an ion3 user for 3 years now, and
I don't plan on stopping anyttime soon.

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Tuomo Valkonen | 7 Apr 2010 20:34

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On 2010-04-07 13:30 -0500, kevin granade wrote:
> Tumov, I just wanted to express my heartfelt thanks for creating ion3
> and making it available.  I've been an ion3 user for 3 years now, and
> I don't plan on stopping anyttime soon.

A fork supporting MODERN CRAP(tm) won't be Ion, so you will stop 
using it.

--

-- 
Tuomo

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pootzko | 7 Apr 2010 21:02

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

nion +1

--
Kit Tihomir
http://www.cmikavac.net/

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Groleo Marius | 7 Apr 2010 21:46

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

Hi,

what's wrong with ion3plus ?

I think Tuomo made it clear in an older mail (see[1] ) how things
should be carried on.
If I got it wrong I stand corrected.

IMO, having new random features in, does not mean immediate success.
See the failure of wmii which every time I gave it a shot it blew out on me.

I guess porting(see [1]) would require the least effort from
developers getting in touch with ion3 code
(and maybe easier to get Tuomo to try it :D)

nIon: +1

[1]: https://lists.berlios.de/pipermail/ion-general/2009-September/001742.html

--

-- 
Regards, Groleo!

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Tuomo Valkonen | 7 Apr 2010 22:12

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On 2010-04-07 22:46 +0300, Groleo Marius wrote:
> (and maybe easier to get Tuomo to try it :D)

I use Windows, and am not coming back.

Even when I have to use Failnux[1], all
all I care anymore is that I get tolerable
fonts, decent keymap, joe, LaTeX, a PDF[2]
viewer, and Opera running. And can somehow 
mount my USB stick without waiting for some
bloated file manager to load a minute. [3]
I just can't be arsed even tying to get Ion
running on the pile of failure that Modern
Linux is: not an _alternative_ to Windows,
but a bug-infested clone.

[1] As the OpenNightmare on the box at the office,
which is fortunately not my nightmare, but the
sysadmin's... I would never even consider trying 
to run such overcomplex grease-fed bug-plantations 
as Modern Linux on my personal computer. Windows 
is much less pain.

[2] KPDF used to be tolerable. Okular is a pile
screen estate wasting crap.

[3] They used to have an automounter on an older
version on OpenNightmare, but no sane way to unmount.
In new version even automount was removed.

--

-- 
Tuomo

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M Rawash | 7 Apr 2010 23:39

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On Wed, 2010-04-07 at 22:46 +0300, Groleo Marius wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> what's wrong with ion3plus ?
> 
> I think Tuomo made it clear in an older mail (see[1] ) how things
> should be carried on.
> If I got it wrong I stand corrected.

"
These guidelines are there to keep the project
true to the name Ion, and therefore include

[...]

  * A veto for me for major changes that do not simply enhance
    existing features. XFascistType and Shitorama have snowball's
    chance in hell of getting into Ion. Ion runs on pure X11, not
    fugly complex extensions.

[...]

As for development after Ion3plus, which shouldn't _fundamentally_ stray
too far from Ion3, I have some new ideas to try for Ion4, that I'd still
like to see implemented. I just doubt I'm going to do it myself...

[...]

I would also require at that point that Ion be ported to Windows and,
why not, OS X at.
"

well, unless tuomo wears a red coat and lives in the north pole, i don't
see this as a good/fair management model, keeping the Ion(tm) name is
not worth having Tuomo as a lead non-developer...IMO

> IMO, having new random features in, does not mean immediate success.
> See the failure of wmii which every time I gave it a shot it blew out on me.

we agreed to leave the development discussion for a later session, i
don't think we ought to be making any assumptions at this point.

> I guess porting(see [1]) would require the least effort from
> developers getting in touch with ion3 code

porting or not, 'someone' will have to do it...

> (and maybe easier to get Tuomo to try it :D)

riiiight... xD

M Rawash

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Groleo Marius | 8 Apr 2010 09:33

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

>
> well, unless tuomo wears a red coat and lives in the north pole, i don't
Well he lives pretty close to it and maybe he has a red coat around,
not plastic ofc.

> see this as a good/fair management model, keeping the Ion(tm) name is
> not worth having Tuomo as a lead non-developer...IMO

Calm down now :).
All the suppositions/proposals I made were made to favor good directions
from Tuomo as we saw he's still around.
 Tearing apart what Tuomo did in years might not be all that good for
future.
 As for the assumption  "not worth having Tuomo as a lead
non-developer...IMO", see other
projects such as Vim, or crappy Linux, where the leaders barely contribute
to the project. Instead they guide it.

Over and out.

--

-- 
Regards, Groleo!

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Evgeny Kurbatov | 8 Apr 2010 11:17

Re: Name of the fork / Voting


>  As for the assumption  "not worth having Tuomo as a lead
> non-developer...IMO", see other
> projects such as Vim, or crappy Linux, where the leaders barely contribute
> to the project. Instead they guide it.

Actually it does not matter who the leader is if we choose well
appointed strategy for the project.

Tuomo can say "No Xinerama and EWMH", I say "Yes EWMH and Xinerama
doesn't matter to me", and somebody can say "Xinerama is important but I
don't care about EWMH" and so on.

Let's discuss what will we do, then we choose the messiah.

Best witches,
Evgeny

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Groleo Marius | 8 Apr 2010 11:39

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

2010/4/8 Evgeny Kurbatov <EvgenyKurbatov@...>:
>
>>  As for the assumption  "not worth having Tuomo as a lead
>> non-developer...IMO", see other
>> projects such as Vim, or crappy Linux, where the leaders barely contribute
>> to the project. Instead they guide it.
>
> Actually it does not matter who the leader is if we choose well
> appointed strategy for the project.
>
> Tuomo can say "No Xinerama and EWMH", I say "Yes EWMH and Xinerama
> doesn't matter to me", and somebody can say "Xinerama is important but I
> don't care about EWMH" and so on.
>
> Let's discuss what will we do, then we choose the messiah.

+1

--

-- 
Regards, Groleo!

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M Rawash | 8 Apr 2010 15:45

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 12:39 +0300, Groleo Marius wrote:
> 2010/4/8 Evgeny Kurbatov <EvgenyKurbatov@...>:
> >
> >>  As for the assumption  "not worth having Tuomo as a lead
> >> non-developer...IMO", see other
> >> projects such as Vim, or crappy Linux, where the leaders barely contribute
> >> to the project. Instead they guide it.
> >
> > Actually it does not matter who the leader is if we choose well
> > appointed strategy for the project.
> >
> > Tuomo can say "No Xinerama and EWMH", I say "Yes EWMH and Xinerama
> > doesn't matter to me", and somebody can say "Xinerama is important but I
> > don't care about EWMH" and so on.
> >
> > Let's discuss what will we do, then we choose the messiah.
> 
> +1

+1

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Harri Haataja | 8 Apr 2010 11:46

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

2010/4/8 Evgeny Kurbatov <EvgenyKurbatov@...>:
>>  As for the assumption  "not worth having Tuomo as a lead
>> non-developer...IMO", see other
>> projects such as Vim, or crappy Linux, where the leaders barely contribute
>> to the project. Instead they guide it.
> Actually it does not matter who the leader is if we choose well
> appointed strategy for the project.

Possibly, but it might be worth considering choosing another
benevolent dictator and letting them have the final say on design
matters on the fork. If only to avoid design by comittee.

--

-- 
I appear to be temporarily using gmail's horrible interface. I
apologise for any failure in my part in trying to make it do the right
thing with post formatting.

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Evgeny Kurbatov | 8 Apr 2010 12:24

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 12:46 +0300, Harri Haataja wrote:
> 2010/4/8 Evgeny Kurbatov <EvgenyKurbatov@...>:
> >>  As for the assumption  "not worth having Tuomo as a lead
> >> non-developer...IMO", see other
> >> projects such as Vim, or crappy Linux, where the leaders barely contribute
> >> to the project. Instead they guide it.
> > Actually it does not matter who the leader is if we choose well
> > appointed strategy for the project.
> 
> Possibly, but it might be worth considering choosing another
> benevolent dictator and letting them have the final say on design
> matters on the fork. If only to avoid design by comittee.

We can't do anything to avoid this, except making leader post elective.

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M Rawash | 8 Apr 2010 15:35

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 10:33 +0300, Groleo Marius wrote:
> >
> > well, unless tuomo wears a red coat and lives in the north pole, i don't
> Well he lives pretty close to it and maybe he has a red coat around,
> not plastic ofc.

> > see this as a good/fair management model, keeping the Ion(tm) name is
> > not worth having Tuomo as a lead non-developer...IMO
> 
> Calm down now :).
> All the suppositions/proposals I made were made to favor good directions
> from Tuomo as we saw he's still around.
>  Tearing apart what Tuomo did in years might not be all that good for
> future.

i think we all made it clear that we appreciate Tuomo's work on Ion, but
he moved on, and so should we...

>  As for the assumption  "not worth having Tuomo as a lead
> non-developer...IMO", see other
> projects such as Vim, or crappy Linux, where the leaders barely contribute
> to the project. Instead they guide it.

That wasn't the point, my objection is not that the lead developer won't
be doing any development, rather that it'll be
"Tuomo" (s/non-developer/self-appointed-benevolent-dictator-for-life/)

cheers,
M Rawash

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Tuomo Valkonen | 8 Apr 2010 22:55

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On 2010-04-08 10:33 +0300, Groleo Marius wrote:
> > well, unless tuomo wears a red coat and lives in the north pole, i don't
> Well he lives pretty close to it and maybe he has a red coat around,

Dieser Berechnung nach, würde es ganz eng am Nordpol sein.

--

-- 
Tuomo

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Groleo Marius | 8 Apr 2010 23:00

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Tuomo Valkonen <tuomov@...> wrote:
> On 2010-04-08 10:33 +0300, Groleo Marius wrote:
>> > well, unless tuomo wears a red coat and lives in the north pole, i don't
>> Well he lives pretty close to it and maybe he has a red coat around,
>
> Dieser Berechnung nach, würde es ganz eng am Nordpol sein.
>

<google_translate>
This calculation in, it would be quite close to the North Pole.
</google_translate>

(sorry for the XML tags :P)
--

-- 
Regards, Groleo!

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Mikle Krutov | 7 Apr 2010 22:51

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 08:34:11PM +0200, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
> On 2010-04-07 13:30 -0500, kevin granade wrote:
> > Tumov, I just wanted to express my heartfelt thanks for creating ion3
> > and making it available.  I've been an ion3 user for 3 years now, and
> > I don't plan on stopping anyttime soon.
> 
> A fork supporting MODERN CRAP(tm) won't be Ion, so you will stop 
> using it.
> 
well, by my mind modern crap is much, much more better than rotten
windows crap. :)
--

-- 
Wbr,
Krutov Mikle

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Tuomo Valkonen | 7 Apr 2010 23:19

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On 2010-04-08 00:51 +0400, Mikle Krutov wrote:
> well, by my mind modern crap is much, much more better than rotten
> windows crap. :)

That MODERN CRAP(tm) is sitting on a pile of rotting ancient crap.
Which wasn't crap until MODERN CRAP sat on it.

--

-- 
Tuomo

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M Rawash | 7 Apr 2010 20:48

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On Wed, 2010-04-07 at 13:30 -0500, kevin granade wrote:
> > It seems that most of the recent participants of this mailing list prefer notion as the name for the
forking project. But there were other proposals like cation or nion. Should we do an "official" voting
(maybe by just by replying to this email with +1 for this or for that) or is the name notion now considered a given?
> >
> > Hope that we get the ball rolling after this decision has been made...next will be choosing a project
leader (i would vote for Timandahaf) / chief developer (I would vote for M Rawash here), but this should be
done in another thread...
> >
> > --
> > Alexander Rink <a.rink@...>
> > n
> 
> From a trademark POV, all the suggested names suffer from the major
> problem of incorporating the trademark in the name.  (see AOL v GAIM)
> I know in this situation it is relatively safe to assume the trademark
> holder isn't hostile, but I would still think it would be very
> desirable to have a name that doesn't technically infringe the
> trademark.

well, yes, some of these of names do suffer from what you're describing
here (i.e. ion-ng), but i don't think names like "notion" or "neon" can
be mistaken for a trademark infringement (both are common nouns in the
english language, which is not associated with ion(tm))

> Unfortunately I don't have much in the way of alternatives to offer,
> I'm not particularly good with coming up with names. ThinWM?
> TinyParticle? TilingMadeSimple? Quirk? (Told you I was terrible.)

yes, you are :)

> Tumov, I just wanted to express my heartfelt thanks for creating ion3
> and making it available.  I've been an ion3 user for 3 years now, and
> I don't plan on stopping anyttime soon.

seconded (except for the "3 years" part, more like 3 months for me..)

regards,
M Rawash

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Sylvain Abélard | 8 Apr 2010 22:36

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

Hi all,

sorry for being late for the vote, I'd vote for "nion" and "notion".

With an existing "Notion" software, there's a small chance in having
problems and a big chance not being googlable, and THAT is a bigger
problem IMNSHO, just as panman wrote. We can probably solve it by
using the name "NotionWM" instead of just "Notion".

>> I'm not particularly good with coming up with names. ThinWM?
>> TinyParticle? TilingMadeSimple? Quirk? (Told you I was terrible.)

If we're going to find new names, I'm no better, but the Wikipedia
"ion" page is great for finding metaphors:

* Aurora - sounds like a new, beautiful and exciting stuff
  Competing on Google is the concept plane.

* NucleusWM - sounds nice and would carry the idea of a small WM,
  but there are many other uses for this word, even in software.

* Faraday - he discovered and named the ions.
  There are a lot of fun metaphors we can find ^^

* Polyatomic - well, that's geeky :)

Just my 2 cents,

--

-- 
Sylvain Abélard
"J’ai décidé d’être heureux, c’est meilleur pour la santé." -Voltaire

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M Rawash | 8 Apr 2010 23:33

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 22:36 +0200, Sylvain Abélard wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> sorry for being late for the vote, I'd vote for "nion" and "notion".
> 
> With an existing "Notion" software, there's a small chance in having
> problems and a big chance not being googlable, and THAT is a bigger
> problem IMNSHO, just as panman wrote. We can probably solve it by
> using the name "NotionWM" instead of just "Notion".
> 
> >> I'm not particularly good with coming up with names. ThinWM?
> >> TinyParticle? TilingMadeSimple? Quirk? (Told you I was terrible.)
> 
> If we're going to find new names, I'm no better, but the Wikipedia
> "ion" page is great for finding metaphors:
> 
> * Aurora - sounds like a new, beautiful and exciting stuff
>   Competing on Google is the concept plane.
> 
> * NucleusWM - sounds nice and would carry the idea of a small WM,
>   but there are many other uses for this word, even in software.
> 
> * Faraday - he discovered and named the ions.
>   There are a lot of fun metaphors we can find ^^
> 
> * Polyatomic - well, that's geeky :)
> 
> 
> Just my 2 cents,
> 

for now "notion" is the name of this fork, we will have more time to
decide on a better name later, but right now we're moving on...

new mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=314802

please subscribe.

M Rawash

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Evgeny Kurbatov | 9 Apr 2010 10:09

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

> > 
> > * Aurora - sounds like a new, beautiful and exciting stuff
> >   Competing on Google is the concept plane.
> > 
> > * NucleusWM - sounds nice and would carry the idea of a small WM,
> >   but there are many other uses for this word, even in software.
> > 
> > * Faraday - he discovered and named the ions.
> >   There are a lot of fun metaphors we can find ^^
> > 
> > * Polyatomic - well, that's geeky :)
> > 
> > 
> > Just my 2 cents,
> > 
> 
> for now "notion" is the name of this fork, we will have more time to
> decide on a better name later, but right now we're moving on...
> 
> new mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=314802
> 
> please subscribe.

Need to understand if most people will subscribe to the list then the
community will be agree in integral with this name, due to natural
inertia of group of people.  And.. who made you chief?

headers

M Rawash | 9 Apr 2010 10:11

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On Fri, 2010-04-09 at 12:09 +0400, Evgeny Kurbatov wrote:
> > > 
> > > * Aurora - sounds like a new, beautiful and exciting stuff
> > >   Competing on Google is the concept plane.
> > > 
> > > * NucleusWM - sounds nice and would carry the idea of a small WM,
> > >   but there are many other uses for this word, even in software.
> > > 
> > > * Faraday - he discovered and named the ions.
> > >   There are a lot of fun metaphors we can find ^^
> > > 
> > > * Polyatomic - well, that's geeky :)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Just my 2 cents,
> > > 
> > 
> > for now "notion" is the name of this fork, we will have more time to
> > decide on a better name later, but right now we're moving on...
> > 
> > new mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=314802
> > 
> > please subscribe.
> 
> Need to understand if most people will subscribe to the list then the
> community will be agree in integral with this name, due to natural
> inertia of group of people.

more people have subscribed to the list than have posted here so far.

> And.. who made you chief?

nobody, hence:
https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=1270776985.4591.143.camel%40localhost&forum_name=notion-devel

regards,
M Rawash

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M Rawash | 9 Apr 2010 10:42

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On Fri, 2010-04-09 at 10:11 +0200, M Rawash wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-04-09 at 12:09 +0400, Evgeny Kurbatov wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > * Aurora - sounds like a new, beautiful and exciting stuff
> > > >   Competing on Google is the concept plane.
> > > > 
> > > > * NucleusWM - sounds nice and would carry the idea of a small WM,
> > > >   but there are many other uses for this word, even in software.
> > > > 
> > > > * Faraday - he discovered and named the ions.
> > > >   There are a lot of fun metaphors we can find ^^
> > > > 
> > > > * Polyatomic - well, that's geeky :)
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Just my 2 cents,
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > for now "notion" is the name of this fork, we will have more time to
> > > decide on a better name later, but right now we're moving on...
> > > 
> > > new mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=314802
> > > 
> > > please subscribe.
> > 
> > Need to understand if most people will subscribe to the list then the
> > community will be agree in integral with this name, due to natural
> > inertia of group of people.
> 
> more people have subscribed to the list than have posted here so far.

sorry, i misunderstood this part (well, not entirely my fault really),
my argument is this, with every minute we spend here, discussing inane
matters that will likely never be resolved anyway, we're losing
momentum, as people don't feel like something is getting done/we're
moving fast enough. also, the more we risk Tuomo pulling another one on
us and finally putting the mailinglist to sleep, leaving us out in the
cold, without a way to regroup or reestablish contact.

this of course, does not solve the problem of "natural inertia of group
of people", but it's a way to overcome it, and deal with it at our own
base, later.

M Rawash

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Timandahaf | 8 Apr 2010 01:49

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On Wed, 7 Apr 2010, kevin granade wrote:
> From a trademark POV, all the suggested names suffer from the major
> problem of incorporating the trademark in the name.  (see AOL v GAIM)
> I know in this situation it is relatively safe to assume the trademark
> holder isn't hostile, but I would still think it would be very
> desirable to have a name that doesn't technically infringe the
> trademark.

Good point, thanks for pointing this out. We should keep this in mind.

However, I agree with your remark on the trademark holder's hostility,
and also think that the substring 'ion' is the suffix of so many words
in English, that unless we hyphenate it (like "not-ion") or refer to
ion3 (like "notion3"), we should be okay.

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Aron Griffis | 7 Apr 2010 23:39

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

Alexander Rink wrote:  [Wed Apr 07 2010, 12:21:01PM EDT]
> It seems that most of the recent participants of this mailing
> list prefer notion as the name for the forking project. But
> there were other proposals like cation or nion. Should we do an
> "official" voting (maybe by just by replying to this email with
> +1 for this or for that) or is the name notion now considered
> a given?

notion +1

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M Rawash | 7 Apr 2010 23:46

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On Wed, 2010-04-07 at 17:39 -0400, Aron Griffis wrote:
> Alexander Rink wrote:  [Wed Apr 07 2010, 12:21:01PM EDT]
> > It seems that most of the recent participants of this mailing
> > list prefer notion as the name for the forking project. But
> > there were other proposals like cation or nion. Should we do an
> > "official" voting (maybe by just by replying to this email with
> > +1 for this or for that) or is the name notion now considered
> > a given?
> 
> notion +1
> 
actually, there might be a problem with notion, i found this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notion_(software)

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M Rawash | 7 Apr 2010 23:56

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On Wed, 2010-04-07 at 23:46 +0200, M Rawash wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-04-07 at 17:39 -0400, Aron Griffis wrote:
> > Alexander Rink wrote:  [Wed Apr 07 2010, 12:21:01PM EDT]
> > > It seems that most of the recent participants of this mailing
> > > list prefer notion as the name for the forking project. But
> > > there were other proposals like cation or nion. Should we do an
> > > "official" voting (maybe by just by replying to this email with
> > > +1 for this or for that) or is the name notion now considered
> > > a given?
> > 
> > notion +1
> > 
> actually, there might be a problem with notion, i found this:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notion_(software) 

although, i'm not sure that's such a big problem (a lot of software
share the same name), i just wanted to bring everybody's attention to
this find, that's all.

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Alexander Rink | 8 Apr 2010 18:10

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

Today I read about the company Notion Ink that produces (or tries to produce) an tablet pc called Adam:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/07/notion-ink-adam-still-alive-working-on-flash-compatibility/

and

http://www.notionink.in

Not sure if this might be a problem...

On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 23:56:55 +0200
M Rawash <mrawash@...> wrote:

> On Wed, 2010-04-07 at 23:46 +0200, M Rawash wrote:
> > On Wed, 2010-04-07 at 17:39 -0400, Aron Griffis wrote:
> > > Alexander Rink wrote:  [Wed Apr 07 2010, 12:21:01PM EDT]
> > > > It seems that most of the recent participants of this mailing
> > > > list prefer notion as the name for the forking project. But
> > > > there were other proposals like cation or nion. Should we do an
> > > > "official" voting (maybe by just by replying to this email with
> > > > +1 for this or for that) or is the name notion now considered
> > > > a given?
> > > 
> > > notion +1
> > > 
> > actually, there might be a problem with notion, i found this:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notion_(software) 
> 
> although, i'm not sure that's such a big problem (a lot of software
> share the same name), i just wanted to bring everybody's attention to
> this find, that's all.

--

-- 
Alexander Rink <a.rink@...>

headers

M Rawash | 8 Apr 2010 21:28

Re: Name of the fork / Voting

On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 18:10 +0200, Alexander Rink wrote: 
> Today I read about the company Notion Ink that produces (or tries to produce) an tablet pc called Adam:
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/07/notion-ink-adam-still-alive-working-on-flash-compatibility/
> 
> and
> 
> http://www.notionink.in
> 
> Not sure if this might be a problem...
> 

well, Notion Ink != notion, I'd be more worried about "Notion" (the
"music composition and performance computer program", whatever that is),
although, as i said, a lot of software share the same name, and it's
_usually_ OK, especially when they do very different things and/or run
on very different platforms (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori)

regards,
M Rawash