gmane.comp.windows.shells.litestep

LiteStep and Linux?

I know that there are several open source programs that are developed 
and then compiled specifically for the various platforms.

Is this possible for LiteStep?

If so, even those wistful Linux users might have reason to check out a 
"LiteStep for Linux." It would seem that an open source shell would have 
an advantage in this sort of portability: Use LiteStep/Linux at home and 
LiteStep/Windows or LiteStep/Mac at work. Same theme, but with different 
ways of addressing the compatibility problem.

Especially in that its purpose is as "a visual output" rather than input 
to another program or incorporation into a common database, etc. Some 
three or so programmers might be able to work up a "LinuxStep" 
(LinuxLite?) utility which can handle any OTS2 theme.

Run it though "Windows prep" and it compiles into the LiteStep we 
currently have and enjoy. Run it through "Mac/OS prep", however, and the 
result will be a compiled version for Macs. "Linux prep" could do the 
same for that platform.

No doubt a lot of work, but is it worth it?

Is it even do-able, program-wise?

It would seem that the Linux compile would be the easiest (assuming any 
of these are possible) in that the OS is open source.

??

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Arve Barsnes | 15 Aug 09:41

Re: LiteStep and Linux?

I'm sure it's possible, but if it's worth it is a different question.
I think it's been discussed before but I can't recall the outcome of
that discussion.

On 8/15/07, Roy Gathercoal <rgathercoal@...> wrote:
> I know that there are several open source programs that are developed
> and then compiled specifically for the various platforms.
>
> Is this possible for LiteStep?
>
> If so, even those wistful Linux users might have reason to check out a
> "LiteStep for Linux." It would seem that an open source shell would have
> an advantage in this sort of portability: Use LiteStep/Linux at home and
> LiteStep/Windows or LiteStep/Mac at work. Same theme, but with different
> ways of addressing the compatibility problem.
>
> Especially in that its purpose is as "a visual output" rather than input
> to another program or incorporation into a common database, etc. Some
> three or so programmers might be able to work up a "LinuxStep"
> (LinuxLite?) utility which can handle any OTS2 theme.
>
> Run it though "Windows prep" and it compiles into the LiteStep we
> currently have and enjoy. Run it through "Mac/OS prep", however, and the
> result will be a compiled version for Macs. "Linux prep" could do the
> same for that platform.
>
> No doubt a lot of work, but is it worth it?
>
> Is it even do-able, program-wise?
>

(Continue reading)

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Joshua Blocher | 15 Aug 11:34

Re: LiteStep and Linux?

As is stood last time I checked( must be at least a year), LS is very
heavily depended on windows. Pretty much everything is reliant on the
Windows OS and restructuring the code to be platform independent would
be a large task. Everything is different (api/platform-wise) in Linux
from how the "system tray" works to Unicode, Menus and graphics
display. Basically all of LS who have to be modified including making
all the modules compatible( or at least all the currently used ones).
For the amount of work involved it might just be easier to code a
whole new shell/DE from scratch.

Correct me if I'm wrong (jugg? anyone)

I for one I'm willing to support a new DE but my coding skills have
always been limited and my "free" time is almost non-existent. On the
other hand it might be easier to use a DE like Gnome as a base but in
the long term it might not be better.

Joshua L. Blocher
verbalshadow

P.S. LS does (did) run in WINE but has no access to Linux specific
stuff like the application menus

On 8/15/07, Arve Barsnes <arve.barsnes@...> wrote:
> I'm sure it's possible, but if it's worth it is a different question.
> I think it's been discussed before but I can't recall the outcome of
> that discussion.
>
> On 8/15/07, Roy Gathercoal <rgathercoal@...> wrote:
> > I know that there are several open source programs that are developed

(Continue reading)

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Tim Bates | 15 Aug 12:33

Re: LiteStep and Linux?

Joshua Blocher wrote:
> Correct me if I'm wrong (jugg? anyone)
>   
I don't think you'd be far off... It'd be a lot of work.

> I for one I'm willing to support a new DE but my coding skills have
> always been limited and my "free" time is almost non-existent. On the
> other hand it might be easier to use a DE like Gnome as a base but in
> the long term it might not be better.
Afterstep might be a better base, but I'm not really a programmer, and I 
haven't seen either Gnome or Afterstep's code.
Nothing wrong with basing it on something else if you ask me...

TB

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Arve Barsnes | 15 Aug 13:35

Re: LiteStep and Linux?

> Afterstep might be a better base, but I'm not really a programmer, and I
> haven't seen either Gnome or Afterstep's code.
> Nothing wrong with basing it on something else if you ask me...

AfterStep would be a good base, as it already has the Linux specific
parts of it in place, and is generally more LiteStep-like than other
WMs. Would still be a huge task though.

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Antoine W. Campagna | 15 Aug 15:22

Re: LiteStep and Linux?

On 8/15/07, Arve Barsnes <arve.barsnes@...> wrote:
>
> > Afterstep might be a better base, but I'm not really a programmer, and I
> > haven't seen either Gnome or Afterstep's code.
> > Nothing wrong with basing it on something else if you ask me...
>
> AfterStep would be a good base, as it already has the Linux specific
> parts of it in place, and is generally more LiteStep-like than other
> WMs. Would still be a huge task though.
>
>
LS is a shell replacement for Windows and can not be turned into a
Linux window manager or desktop environment.
LS runs well under WINE which is nice for any user that runs many exes in Linux.
There are only module incompatibilities, which can probably be worked
around or could be fixed in WINE's code (if it's not compatible, it's
their fault since they are supposed to mimmic Windows).
I think we could make LS fit perfectly with WINE and propose it as a feature
for the WINE community (with a
minimalistic floating explorer bar or something).
Useability of LS under Linux could be agumented if there would be a
"bridge" between the emulated environment and the OS (which may already exist).
Such a bridge could be used in scripts, by lsxcommand or even by the
core to do pretty much anything.
An "inverse
bridge" could also be used to allow communication between a native
linux app that would communicate the systray/tasks and stuff to LS so
that it can act as a complete netive like desktop environment.

Or a simplified version of LS could be turned into a Linux desktop

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Roy Gathercoal | 15 Aug 20:52

Re: LiteStep and Linux?

Are these competitors (Linux shells similar to LiteStep) open source?

If so, would it be possible and useful (two very different questions) to 
take one of these "similar to LiteStep already" shells and create some 
sort of bridge that would do the on-the-fly translation between LiteStep 
and the Linux machines?

Here are a couple of potential benefits:

(1) An increasing number of users seem to be packing U3 portable 
desktops around with them. Thus they can boot from the U3 and start with 
their own familiar/preferred desktop, configurations, utilities, etc.

Might it be useful to a Windows/LiteStep user to be able to move back 
and forth with the (apparently) same desktop?

(2) It seems unlikely there will be a shortage of users looking for an 
alternative to Windows.  Sadly, Linux will not give Microsoft a run for 
their money. Even taking together all of the non-Windows desktops it 
seems unlikely that Microsoft strategists will lose much sleep over 
market share loss.

Especially in Asian markets, where some project that more computers will 
be sold than in the US and Europe in just a few years! Note, for 
example, that one recent theme skinning contest (with some really nifty 
toys to the winners) was dominated by entries from China.

This would not be my choice if I had something to do with it, but it 
does seem to be the fact--in spite of any of my possible contributions 
(!) Microsoft isn't going away soon. I do have to admit, though, that I

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Antoine W. Campagna | 15 Aug 23:01

Re: LiteStep and Linux?

On 8/15/07, Roy Gathercoal <rgathercoal@...> wrote:
>
>
> Are these competitors (Linux shells similar to LiteStep) open source?

In the Unix world, a shell generally means the shell of the command
line interface. They sometime
call the graphic server (X Window), window manager and desktop
environment the Graphical Shell.
I think most if not all Linux
window managers and/or desktop environments are open source.

If so, would it be possible and useful (two very different questions) to
> take one of these "similar to LiteStep already" shells and create some
> sort of bridge that would do the on-the-fly translation between LiteStep
> and the Linux machines?

Possibly, LS is a clone of these
competitors. Some still have text based config files that are almost
identical to what you can find in a
step.rc file.
You would need some sort of stripped
FVWM that would communicate information with a modified LS core under
WINE. The different
tasks could all be offloaded to LS or be shared between the two apps.
Althoug, it would need a significant amount of work.

Here are a couple of potential benefits:
>
> (1) An increasing number of users seem to be packing U3 portable

(Continue reading)

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Roy Gathercoal | 16 Aug 10:23

LiteStep and Linux themes as paired tools to help folks move to Linux?

Thanks.

Sounds like I was way off base.

Instead of developing one theme that would somehow work in both systems, 
would it be possible/probable and feasible to develop "paired" themes; 
one theme developed on LiteStep for Windows, but a second "theme" that 
would be a *functional equivalent* to the LiteStep theme, but running in 
Linux?

I'm thinking about how we might be able to do something about making it 
easier (or probably more accurately, less frightening) for a Windows XP 
user to actually make the switch to Linux.

It does seem like a good way to escort Windows users into Linux: If they 
saw a familiar environment when they booted up Linux, much of the fear 
would go away. Chances are they wouldn't have to make big changes in the 
brand of their software (many software businesses put out both Windows 
and OSX or Linux versions).

I'm envisioning some sort of transition theme, with a Windows theme and 
a Linux theme that paired, tied together by their look and feel. So much 
of the initial learning curve (and potential trauma associated with it) 
might be eased.

The idea is that a user who *wanted* to move to Linux but is concerned 
about drowning (i.e., not being able to get actual work/stuff done) 
could use the Windows half of the theme-pair for awhile--to get 
accustomed to approaching computing in a bit of a different way but with 
all the apps, mail and browser, etc. all still comfortably windows based.

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Antoine W. Campagna | 16 Aug 14:43

Re: LiteStep and Linux themes as paired tools to help folks move to Linux?

On 8/16/07, Roy Gathercoal <rgathercoal@...> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Sounds like I was way off base.
>
> Instead of developing one theme that would somehow work in both systems,
> would it be possible/probable and feasible to develop "paired" themes;
> one theme developed on LiteStep for Windows, but a second "theme" that
> would be a *functional equivalent* to the LiteStep theme, but running in
> Linux?

Yes, that is quite possible. There are LS themes that mimic KDE or Gnome.
And using AfterStep, FVWM, XFCE or similar, it is quite possible to create a
theme that would be the exact copy of a LS theme.

I'm thinking about how we might be able to do something about making it
> easier (or probably more accurately, less frightening) for a Windows XP
> user to actually make the switch to Linux.
>
> It does seem like a good way to escort Windows users into Linux: If they
> saw a familiar environment when they booted up Linux, much of the fear
> would go away. Chances are they wouldn't have to make big changes in the
> brand of their software (many software businesses put out both Windows
> and OSX or Linux versions).
>
> I'm envisioning some sort of transition theme, with a Windows theme and
> a Linux theme that paired, tied together by their look and feel. So much
> of the initial learning curve (and potential trauma associated with it)

(Continue reading)

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Roy Gathercoal | 16 Aug 22:53

Re: LiteStep and Linux themes as paired tools to help folks move to Linux?


...
> Yes, this is quite feasible. I doubt it would be very popular though.

What I have in mind is not a "permanent" theme: Perhaps more like a 
12-step approach to Windows users. So I'm thinking that someone who 
wanted to move to Linux could easily set up this pair of themes; use the 
first in the pair until the theme felt quite comfortable, then switch to 
the second (Linux-based) theme.

Once the user gained enough confidence (in the "hey! I'm really running 
Linux! and the world hasn't ended!" sense) they would move on to some 
sort of more robust Linux theme/graphical theme/command line/whatever.

So this pair of themes would typically be used in one way, ordered in a 
specific temporal manner (we would not expect anyone would use the Linux 
theme in order to switch to Windows, after all!), and would be designed 
really not as a long-term theme on either side, but rather as a 
transitory or transitional phased system.

One goal: To provide a safe and comfortable way Windows users who wished 
to change to Linux to make the move without a cold turkey experience.

One imperfect analog would be learning to ride a bicycle. You might 
start on a trike. Once entirely comfortable with that mode, you move up 
to a small bicycle with training wheels. This is certainly not any sort 
of permanent option--in many ways it captures the worst of both worlds. 
But it is a way through the transition.

Then, perhaps you try the bike without the training wheels, with a

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Darrin C Roenfanz | 16 Aug 23:24

Re: LiteStep and Linux themes as paired tools to help folks move to Linux?

As much as I hate to ruin such a lively discussion ...
Isn't the goal to get more people to use Litestep?
All this is rather sounding like ...
"Long live Litestep!" .. "Wuzzat? Oh .. Litestep is dead! Long live Linux!"

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Joshua Blocher | 17 Aug 01:57

Re: LiteStep and Linux themes as paired tools to help folks move to Linux?

Roy,

Its a great dream.
My issues with it are, why would a Linux user that didn't use windows
still come back to code this? There are already at at least a handful
of Gnome themes out and some KDE themes too that could easily be
re-tasked to do what you are describing.

I'm all for helping people move to Linux. What you propose doesn't
really get LS on Linux though. It moves people from windows were LS is
to Linux were LS is not( at least without WINE), which is
exceptionally backwards if you are trying to save LS.

If you want to save LS you need to focus on LS.

Important Tasks
- 64bit
- Vista Compatible
- Modules that use Vista's New Bling API
- OTS3 ( maybe final already?!)
- Final and Easy to use Installer (LOSI?)
- Maybe another Gathering of the Minds(multi-author theme) to show off
all the latest and greatest
- Making Themes that people lust over
- Making theme writing easier/ code snippets /etc

Not necessarily in that order.
Just my opinion, and i don't think LS is dead yet.

On 8/17/07, Roy Gathercoal <rgathercoal@...> wrote:

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Wendy Harlow | 17 Aug 05:13

RE: LiteStep and Linux themes as paired tools to help folks move to Linux?

"Its a great dream.
My issues with it are, why would a Linux user that didn't use windows
still come back to code this? There are already at at least a handful
of Gnome themes out and some KDE themes too that could easily be
re-tasked to do what you are describing.

"I'm all for helping people move to Linux. What you propose doesn't
really get LS on Linux though. It moves people from windows were LS is
to Linux were LS is not( at least without WINE), which is
exceptionally backwards if you are trying to save LS.

"If you want to save LS you need to focus on LS."

---------------------

I have to agree here. The purpose of LS is to provide a more powerful,
intuitive and customizable environment for Windows, not provide Linux with
new converts. If we can make Windows more attractive to those who use Linux,
would they come back?

~Wendy
Tonsei-rs

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Joshua Blocher | 17 Aug 07:09

Re: LiteStep and Linux themes as paired tools to help folks move to Linux?

> I have to agree here. The purpose of LS is to provide a more powerful,
> intuitive and customizable environment for Windows, not provide Linux with
> new converts. If we can make Windows more attractive to those who use Linux,
> would they come back?

LiteStep did a lot for me, it was my first FOSS application until I
stumbled upon it had no idea anything like this existed. The community
taught me about sharing the wealth (giving back themes I had made),
Learn not to be afraid of editing configuration files. In short LS did
prepare me for the move to linux were the things I learned applied to
the whole system not just few programs. I love being able to modify my
system in anyway I can imagine and/or code. Secondly why would we use
a product that requires us to purchase/use another product in order
for the first product we purchased to work as advertised?

I can't speak for all of us but I for one would not be coming back for
the above reasons. I still love the LS community and I'm not leaving
it but not much could bring me back to windows at this point. I'll
still have to use it at work though.

Joshua L. Blocher
verbalshadow

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Roy Gathercoal | 17 Aug 23:00

Re: LiteStep and Linux themes as paired tools to help folks move to Linux?

Joshua, Wendy, Darrin, thanks for the comments.

On your first point, Joshua, I was going on the estimate by Antoine that
most of the Linux coders still use Windows for some things. If there are
a number of qualified coders who use both platforms, finding programmers
shouldn't be an impossible task.

As to the "why help Linux?" point:

(1) We will "save" LiteStep by getting more people using LiteStep. One
very big way of doing that is through good press (especially popular
blogs, mags and online special interest sites. I am not a proponent of
the "all press is good press" position. Yet it is clear that "little
press is certainly not good press").

One reason more people are not using LiteStep now is that they have
never heard of it.

One of the biggest hot topics of the Century (well, at least so far) is
whether enough people will bail from Microsoft (instead of migrating to
Vista) that it will even be noticed by Microsoft. LiteStep is perfectly
situated to provide one thing on the wish list of (at least) hundreds of
thousands of computer users worldwide: A way to make XP look and act
more like Vista.

If even a fraction of these people read a few computer magazine/software
reviewers/"what's new in computing" blogs, LiteStep will grow. Assuming
that the themes we have constructed for this purpose are of high
quality, some number of users will look around the site, and even come
back to take a closer look, later. Exposure on our terms is almost

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Joshua Blocher | 18 Aug 02:12

Re: LiteStep and Linux themes as paired tools to help folks move to Linux?

Roy,

You are very verbose can I get that -v instead of -vvvvv.
kidding.

Like said before LS does help user migrate to linux but, normally not directly.
Helps people be comfortable editing text files to make changes to there system.
Teachs about what community means.
Teaching that you can have your system your way.
etc

Antoine said:
The main difference is which apps can
run, the way to install apps, the way to configure stuff, the way to
install new hardware and
other things that depend on the capabilities of the kernel and on the
software environment.

Here I would have to agree and it more complicated than that in reality.
What distro are you going to try to replicate there are hundreds.
Fedora, Slack,Gentoo, Debian, Ubuntu, Mandriva, OpenSuse, Linspire,
LFS, and Xandros. Those are just the ones i can think of off the top
of my head. Some like LFS and Gentoo are you compile the whole system
and not doable. There are some major and minor differences between all
the ones I listed. Like package system fedora uses RPM. Debian and
Ubuntu use DEB. Windows doesn't even have a built-in package system
and no MSI doesn't count cause you can just pick the apps to install
you have to hunt them down and then install them. Windows-get is
something like this but it is not a part of the system.

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Roy Gathercoal | 19 Aug 10:46

what is it that LiteStep does for the non-programmer?


What would you folks say is the biggest reason someone who isn't a 
programmer should download and install LiteStep?

For someone who was not able to "take complete control of everything" by 
writing their own scripts, why LiteStep?

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Steve | 19 Aug 14:31

Re: what is it that LiteStep does for the non-programmer?

To try other people's themes.

Btw, you think it takes a programmer to change/tweak/create a theme?

Roy Gathercoal wrote:
>
> What would you folks say is the biggest reason someone who isn't a 
> programmer should download and install LiteStep?
>
> For someone who was not able to "take complete control of everything" 
> by writing their own scripts, why LiteStep?
>
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>
>
>

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Xjill | 19 Aug 15:17

Re: what is it that LiteStep does for the non-programmer?

On 8/19/07, Steve <xcalck@...> wrote:
> To try other people's themes.
>
> Btw, you think it takes a programmer to change/tweak/create a theme?
>
> Roy Gathercoal wrote:
> >
> > What would you folks say is the biggest reason someone who isn't a
> > programmer should download and install LiteStep?
> >
> > For someone who was not able to "take complete control of everything"
> > by writing their own scripts, why LiteStep?

I'm a programmer (and have coded a module for LS too), but have never
actually written a LS script. I use themes other people have made (I
have to, since I suck at graphics :P ), and then I just change
whatever shortcuts are around. The last point is also a lot easier now
than before since most modern themes have some sort of mechanism for
making this easier for you (my current theme pops up a dialog when you
right click the shortcut).

After you've had a theme for a while, you start seeing stuff that
would make more sense for you if they were another way, and then you
do some more editing, but that's the most advanced stuff I've ever
done in the themeing business.

 - Xjill

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Roy Gathercoal | 20 Aug 13:55

Re: what is it that LiteStep does for the non-programmer?

Not technically. But whatever is the last stop of the computer bus just 
this side of programmer.

A structured misunderstanding over terminology won't help anyone so let 
me ask, what would you call it?

*It* is the special codes, terms and practices either unique to LiteStep 
(such as "Hotspot Initialization Error:") or encoded in language that 
most people with enough programming background to follow nested "If . . 
.then. . ." statements, for example.

So no, I don't think you need to be a programmer to use LiteStep.

But if you aren't a programmer and don't have someone to walk you 
through it, it will take study and background resources before you can 
even install many of the themes.

(I use "Omar's Installer" and in somewhere between half and 2/3s the 
time, there will be error messages popping up that even a fairly 
experienced Windows user--not a coder--will not likely know how to address).

So what term should I use for people who may not be able to write a 
complete program or major subroutine in C# but who are completely new to 
LiteStep terminology, file structure and "ways things are done?"

Steve wrote:
> To try other people's themes.
> 
> Btw, you think it takes a programmer to change/tweak/create a theme?
>

(Continue reading)

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Roy Gathercoal | 20 Aug 14:02

Re: what is it that LiteStep does for the non-programmer?

All right. Given that the vast majority of computer users out there 
don't use, or even have never heard of LiteStep--many of whom are quite 
skilled and regularly using various programs to accomplish the bulk of 
the responsibilities that constitute their job descriptions,

why should they care about "trying other people's themes?"

Please realize I'm trying to be argumentative at all. I am instead 
trying to ensure that my understanding of who uses LiteStep, in what 
ways and why, is a little more robust.

Steve wrote:
> To try other people's themes.
> 
> 

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Alexander Vermaat | 20 Aug 14:05

Re: what is it that LiteStep does for the non-programmer?

Why would you skin any application?

Roy Gathercoal wrote:
> All right. Given that the vast majority of computer users out there 
> don't use, or even have never heard of LiteStep--many of whom are quite 
> skilled and regularly using various programs to accomplish the bulk of 
> the responsibilities that constitute their job descriptions,
> 
> why should they care about "trying other people's themes?"
> 
> Please realize I'm trying to be argumentative at all. I am instead 
> trying to ensure that my understanding of who uses LiteStep, in what 
> ways and why, is a little more robust.
> 
> 
> 
> Steve wrote:
>> To try other people's themes.
>>
>>
> 
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> 

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Roy Gathercoal | 20 Aug 15:11

Re: what is it that LiteStep does for the non-programmer?

Maybe you shouldn't!

I have seen reference to "skinnability" of some applications, though.

For example, WinAmp and other music players, file managers (desktop 
Explorer alternatives), calculators, etc. I also believe I recall that 
in Windowblinds, for example, one featured benefit is the ability to 
change all your applications to a common color scheme/graphic look.

It seems to me this would make sense--most people don't usually have 
Windows Explorer up as the main visual element on their computer screens 
so the overhead of custom visual styles would not be worth the time and 
effort for the small amount of screen time.

All that was answer to your question at face value.

If you are posing your question as rhetorical, I would have to say that 
most people don't skin any application.

Yet I have been thinking of LiteStep as a program that does a couple of 
things. It can change the look and feel of your windows (assuming you 
don't care for any of the pre-packaged looks that comes with Windows). I 
have understood this to be the less-compelling reason, due to the call 
for some LiteStep themes to use Windowblinds to manage the look-and-feel 
aspects of screen customization.

The features of LiteStep that seem to be less-likely-outsourced to 
another desktop customization program involve different ways to display 
menus, etc. I'm not sure whether this would be enough of a benefit to 
justify the cost of learning the program(s), especially in the absence

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Wendy Harlow | 20 Aug 15:42

RE: what is it that LiteStep does for the non-programmer?

"If you are posing your question as rhetorical, I would have to say that
most people don't skin any application."

You're probably right that the casual computer user doesn't skin their apps,
but Stardock has been making a fair amount of money selling its WindowBlinds
and Object Desktop software for many years now. They even made a deal with
Microsoft to include their skinning engine in Windows itself (starting with
XP). The big difference between those apps and LiteStep is their ease of use
- full base installer, skin installer, integration with the Display dialog,
and easy-to-understand configuration. They also come out with major updates
every year (or thereabouts) and get an update out in a hurry with every
update of Windows.

Winamp is a great introduction to the world of customization and skinning -
it's how I started. "Wow, if this program can do this, is there anything
else that can?" I don't use Winamp anymore in favor of Foobar, since I don't
have the screen real estate to leave the fancy interface laying about
anymore. I also don't need something that'll play every file format under
the sun. Personal preference...

It's true that people don't wake up one day and decide to use a shell
replacement. The idea needs to originate somewhere - like a friend telling
them about it (my case), or seeing the possibilities with something, well,
SAFE - like Winamp. Let's face it - mucking around with your OS is pretty
damned scary stuff.

~Wendy
Tonsei-rs

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Brian Wolven | 19 Aug 20:40

Re: what is it that LiteStep does for the non-programmer?

Roy Gathercoal wrote:
> 
> What would you folks say is the biggest reason someone who isn't a 
> programmer should download and install LiteStep?
> 
> For someone who was not able to "take complete control of everything" by 
> writing their own scripts, why LiteStep?

Because you can use all the other bits and pieces (scripts, modules, 
graphics, groups of module settings) that *other* people have come up 
with to perform a certain task faster/better/easier. And in the process, 
probably come up with a few ideas of your own. LS shows you the 
possibiLitieS.

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Roy Gathercoal | 20 Aug 15:26

Re: Re: what is it that LiteStep does for the non-programmer?

All right. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that there are
"scripts, modules, graphics and groups of module settings" that will
allow me to perform some task(s) better than I could without LiteStep?

My keyboard has a number of user-defined keys along the side and top 
that can be assigned to scripts, URLs, or "gadgets" that many other 
people have written and which are conveniently gathered together for me 
on some secret MS site somewhere.

I also use Firefox. I have several toolbars I can display or not that are
composed entirely of icons for gadgets from Google--most of which is
simple drag-and-drop of the application icon to the toolbar.

I understand that many of LiteStep's themes use Windowblinds to control
the "look and feel" of windows, so it should be safe to say that making
these sorts of changes are not what drives LiteStep.

Now the gadgets from MSN and from Google are exceptionally easy to
install and use, especially after you sift out the poorly
designed/executed ones. My LiteStep experience is obviously limited (no
snickering in the back, there!) yet so far I would say that the LiteStep
gadgets are on the whole neither better nor worse than those emerging
from the "search-engine wars."

So what is it that LiteStep can do for me that Windowblinds,
configurable keyboards, and gadgets from Google or MSN (or others, I
suspect) can not do?

If I am new to this community and have not yet met the wonderful people
who now are doing the work around LiteStep I obviously don't see any

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Hale, Paul | 20 Aug 16:11

RE: Re: what is it that LiteStep does for the non-programmer?

> From: Roy Gathercoal [mailto:rgathercoal@...] 
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 9:27 AM
> To: litestep@...
> Subject: Re: [Litestep] Re: what is it that LiteStep does for 
> the non-programmer?
> 

Hey Roy, you have some good questions. Why do we use litestep? For me it
is easy, I love to tinker, tweak, hack, customize, and just generally
make my computer my own and work the way I like it. I'll address some of
your questions with my own opinions.

> So what is it that LiteStep can do for me that Windowblinds, 
> configurable keyboards, and gadgets from Google or MSN (or others, I
> suspect) can not do?

This is a good one to start with. I personally do not use Windowblinds.
I like some of the themes, I just don't use it. However Windowblinds
primary purpose is eyecandy. Sure they can add rollup windows and pinned
to desktop, but that is about it. Litestep does not enter the arena of
window management (I believe). And there are 3rd part apps that can give
you the same rollup and pinned functions for a much smaller resource
footprint (FileBX is a good one). 

Configurable keyboards load a proprietary driver and/or application to
give you any sort of added functionality. I was just looking at some
ostentatious keyboards on NewEgg and saw that one keyboard actually
needed 100+ MB of memory for all the functionality. With Litestep, I can
configure any plain old keyboard to have the hotkeys *I* want or think
make sense.

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Wendy Harlow | 20 Aug 17:17

RE: Re: what is it that LiteStep does for the non-programmer?

" We may come across as a bunch of grumpy old men (or women), but I have
found most of them to be wonderfully patient. Lord knows I am an idiot a
lot of the time and they deal with me with great tact."

Paul, you're not an idiot!

And we ARE a patient lot, it seems - we don't seem to get into the same
flame wars that other communities seem to. Maybe it's because we've all got
our heads "under the hood" and are too busy to be anything but polite.
*grin*

The casual computer user probably has no idea he can do anything to make
Windows better, whether just in the eye candy department or deeper
functionality. My thought is that the eye candy is what draws them in, then
they see the higher level of functionality. It seems the normal progression
for a Litestep user: big, flashy themes; start tinkering with those themes;
start tossing out the "extra" stuff; pare down desires in a theme to
necessities; design own theme with a minimalist slant. We've been dormant
for the last several years. It's time to raise a new group of Litestep
evangelists and get us some new converts! Spread the good news! You are
SAVED from a boring desktop!

Why would someone want to use Windows Explorer (keep in mind, I'm on Vista)?

I love Windows Sidebar. I have a weather gadget, a souped-up clock (with
nice, big numbers), an appointments gadget and a tasks gadget. The last two
synch with Outlook, where I keep my entire life. It's great to have the
ability to download a complete, skinned gadget and drag and drop it into
place (there's a link within the sidebar config to the download site). It's
also great to be able to drag it from one place to another on the sidebar.

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Kyle Eck | 20 Aug 19:45

Re: Re: what is it that LiteStep does for the non-programmer?

As a user with next to no capability of generating content on my own, I
still use Litestep- hell, I use the DEFAULT theme from the omar installer
(austerity)- because it's simply better than explorer. The virtual desktops,
the convenience of hotspots to switch between them, the winamp controls,
system monitor, and what level of customization I can do all make it more
useful and efficient when compared to windows' default shell. Interestingly,
I've yet to find a theme that does what austerity does but better- that is,
recreate the original windows experience in a more fluid and enhanced way-
but that may be another conversation.

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Xjill | 21 Aug 13:44

Re: Re: what is it that LiteStep does for the non-programmer?

On 8/20/07, Wendy Harlow <tanryoku@...> wrote:
> Can't I have a right-click option to "Send to Popup" with a flyout for
> the subfolders?

You should be able to do that through the registry, not entirely
certain if the subfolder flyout can be done through the registry too,
or if you need a Shell Extension for it. A quick google of "custom
context menu explorer" gave some interesting results.

The thing is that there's a ton of small improvements like that laying
about. They're just waiting for people like you to point them out, and
then for somebody to hack together a solution.

Just hacking together a crude solution to problems like this, and
sharing it (e.g. posting on http://lsp.litestep.info), is enough. Even
if it doesn't work flawlessly, if people use it someone will
eventually come around with a new hack to fix those problems. And a
new feature is born... 

 - Xjill

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Brian Wolven | 22 Aug 07:15

Re: what is it that LiteStep does for the non-programmer?

Roy Gathercoal wrote:
> All right. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that there are
> "scripts, modules, graphics and groups of module settings" that will
> allow me to perform some task(s) better than I could without LiteStep?
> 
> My keyboard has a number of user-defined keys along the side and top 
> that can be assigned to scripts, URLs, or "gadgets" that many other 
> people have written and which are conveniently gathered together for me 
> on some secret MS site somewhere.

I can view/edit/modify/verify the source code of the gadgets that I make 
and/or use in LS. No secret phone calls to Redmond from *my* gadgets. MS 
gadgets typically try to please too wide an audience (i.e., all Windows 
users), and thus make compromises in terms of their features or 
configurability. They may be easier to use (though not always!), but for 
some of us that extra bit of customization we can get with LS is well 
worth the additional effort.

> I also use Firefox. I have several toolbars I can display or not that are
> composed entirely of icons for gadgets from Google--most of which is
> simple drag-and-drop of the application icon to the toolbar.

I don't use any toolbars in Firefox, but there are several extensions 
that I find extremely valuable. I think that LS modules/scripts/widgets 
are more like a Firefox extension than some MS gadget. Somebody creates 
something because it satisfies a need or want, and then it is made 
available to the community, where it may be dissected/enhanced/altered, 
etc.  Or discarded and forgotten. =P

> I understand that many of LiteStep's themes use Windowblinds to control

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Roy Gathercoal | 22 Sep 15:35

(after a respite) Does this fit as a description of LiteStep?

First, I apologize for the gap. I've had some interesting times with a 
particular group of ophthalmologists.

This is important work, and worth my time and effort, at least. I hope I 
don't overstay my welcome.

In text, would it be accurate to say (NOT ad copy, but rather some 
general statements pointing out why LiteStep makes sense for most 
computer users, so please read this as "general idea" rather than 
specific copy:

-----------------------------

As computing itself becomes more complex, as computer users take control 
of even more of their overall computing environment;
as computers themselves simultaneously grab more of our "eyeball-hours" 
and reach out to control more aspects of our increasingly complex 
environment;
as human-computer interactions take up more of our work and play time 
and the number of people whose jobs and primary recreation do not 
involve computers continue to shrink;

we should not be surprised as the desire--the need--to personalize our 
own "digital space" continues to grow along with an increasing need to 
reestablish some sense of control over our own computer interfaces.

LiteStep goes quite a ways toward meeting my need to "re-personalize" my 
digital space.

By allowing me to go far beyond changing background images or the color

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Wendy Harlow | 22 Sep 16:01

RE: (after a respite) Does this fit as a description of LiteStep?

Hi Roy -

I sense a shift here from "computer geeks" to the general user who has a
vague sense of things not quite feeling right with their computer
experience. It's a good thing, I think.

If we are to regain our "market share" (especially in this age of Vista), we
need to become more sophisticated and far-reaching in our "marketing". We
need an introductory site with this sort of text on the front page, not
blurbs of news about modules that newbies won't have any clue about or
interest in. We need a way to gather all the disassociated Litestep
community sites together under one banner and make stuff easier to find - a
portal of sorts.

(Please note, I'm not suggesting we change the current LS sites out there -
they have their place and their fans!)

I have the technical ability to pull something like this together, but I
can't afford the hosting a popular site would require - that's why I haven't
stepped forward on this yet. Besides, didn't someone say someone else was
working on something like this already? I know rootrider still has
Litestep.com in trust...

On a side note: I installed Virtual PC with WinXP to do website testing and
immediately installed Litestep on it. I put the "Dreaming of 2" theme on. It
has the feel of Vista with the goodness of Litestep - I'm so excited!

~Wendy Harlow
Tonsei-rs

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Antoine W. Campagna | 24 Sep 16:32

Re: (after a respite) Does this fit as a description of LiteStep?

On 9/22/07, Roy Gathercoal <rgathercoal@...> wrote:
>
>
> First, I apologize for the gap. I've had some interesting times with a
> particular group of ophthalmologists.
>
> This is important work, and worth my time and effort, at least. I hope I
> don't overstay my welcome.
>
> In text, would it be accurate to say (NOT ad copy, but rather some
> general statements pointing out why LiteStep makes sense for most
> computer users, so please read this as "general idea" rather than
> specific copy:
>
> -----------------------------
>
> As computing itself becomes more complex, as computer users take control
> of even more of their overall computing environment;
> as computers themselves simultaneously grab more of our "eyeball-hours"
> and reach out to control more aspects of our increasingly complex
> environment;
> as human-computer interactions take up more of our work and play time
> and the number of people whose jobs and primary recreation do not
> involve computers continue to shrink;
>
> we should not be surprised as the desire--the need--to personalize our
> own "digital space" continues to grow along with an increasing need to
> reestablish some sense of control over our own computer interfaces.
>
> LiteStep goes quite a ways toward meeting my need to "re-personalize" my

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Fidel | 27 Sep 01:13

Re: (after a respite) Does this fit as a description of LiteStep?

As an extremely long time user.. (thats just about it), I like it. I
long since gave up the idea of releasing any themes, but litestep is
always my shell because my GUI was made by me, for me. You've
definitely got the feeling down.

On 9/24/07, Antoine W. Campagna <AntoineW@...> wrote:
> On 9/22/07, Roy Gathercoal <rgathercoal@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > First, I apologize for the gap. I've had some interesting times with a
> > particular group of ophthalmologists.
> >
> > This is important work, and worth my time and effort, at least. I hope I
> > don't overstay my welcome.
> >
> > In text, would it be accurate to say (NOT ad copy, but rather some
> > general statements pointing out why LiteStep makes sense for most
> > computer users, so please read this as "general idea" rather than
> > specific copy:
> >
> > -----------------------------
> >
> > As computing itself becomes more complex, as computer users take control
> > of even more of their overall computing environment;
> > as computers themselves simultaneously grab more of our "eyeball-hours"
> > and reach out to control more aspects of our increasingly complex
> > environment;
> > as human-computer interactions take up more of our work and play time
> > and the number of people whose jobs and primary recreation do not
> > involve computers continue to shrink;

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Roy Gathercoal | 27 Sep 08:22

Re: (after a respite) Does this fit as a description of LiteStep?

Antoine W. Campagna wrote:
Thanks for your response. I'm enclosing comments.
> 
> 
> Were you having eye problems ?

Yes. I suddenly lost much of the vision in my right eye. Branch vein 
occlusion: One of the three arterioles (little arteries) supplying blood 
to my eye collapsed so no blood could get through. Vision cells, being 
often nerve cells, died without blood supply. Meanwhile the pressure in 
my eye (swelling actually within the eyeball itself) continues to rise.

I'm part of a huge National Institutes of Health (NIH) study trying an 
experimental treatment involving sticking a syringe into your eyeball 
and shooting cortisone into your eyeball. An interesting experience.
> 
> I think everyone here still welcomes
> you and will continue to do so since your messages are inspiring
> (although long).
> 
Yes, my posts are long.

Mostly because this business is important, and while we all have become 
accustomed to short pithy email, we also spend a huge amount of time 
cleaning up the messes that were caused because someone misunderstood a 
one-sentence email someone else sent. Overall, I find it to be an 
excellent investment.

Part of the reason is that I do want people to think deeply about these

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Antoine W. Campagna | 17 Aug 20:01

Re: LiteStep and Linux themes as paired tools to help folks move to Linux?

On 8/16/07, Roy Gathercoal <rgathercoal@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> ...
> > Yes, this is quite feasible. I doubt it would be very popular though.
>
> What I have in mind is not a "permanent" theme: Perhaps more like a
> 12-step approach to Windows users. So I'm thinking that someone who
> wanted to move to Linux could easily set up this pair of themes; use the
> first in the pair until the theme felt quite comfortable, then switch to
> the second (Linux-based) theme.
>
> Once the user gained enough confidence (in the "hey! I'm really running
> Linux! and the world hasn't ended!" sense) they would move on to some
> sort of more robust Linux theme/graphical theme/command line/whatever.
>
> So this pair of themes would typically be used in one way, ordered in a
> specific temporal manner (we would not expect anyone would use the Linux
> theme in order to switch to Windows, after all!), and would be designed
> really not as a long-term theme on either side, but rather as a
> transitory or transitional phased system.
>
> One goal: To provide a safe and comfortable way Windows users who wished
> to change to Linux to make the move without a cold turkey experience.
>
> One imperfect analog would be learning to ride a bicycle. You might
> start on a trike. Once entirely comfortable with that mode, you move up
> to a small bicycle with training wheels. This is certainly not any sort
> of permanent option--in many ways it captures the worst of both worlds.

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chris | 13 Sep 04:18

Re: LiteStep and Linux?

What makes Litestep... Litestep is simply a plain text based 
configuration system that loads plugins and provides access to Windows 
shell resources for those plugins.  Litestep is a *replacement* shell 
(keep that in mind).

The thing that people don't understand is that *underneath* of Litestep 
is a standardized OS and shell services that doesn't vary much from one 
person's desktop to the next.  So regardless of how archaic Litestep may 
be to some peoples view point, they can still work with it because 
everything else on their OS is familiar (notepad, explorer file manager, 
alt+tab, download-able install packages etc).  There is no learning 
curve beyond Litestep.

Now jump into Linux... a whole different story.  There are desktop 
environments (DE) out there that are also a plain text file 
configuration that load plugins.  Not really any different than what we 
see in Litestep.  The biggest difference is what is running under the 
DE... the resources provided.  Because the OS setup could be any 
combination of distro, window manager etc, this type of DE does not get 
a lot of support or plugins written for it, and the plugins that do get 
written for it are probably not going to target the same resources you 
have available on your system.

So, the big fellas, KDE, GNOME... the ones that have included the 
kitchen sink, well for these a lot of plugins have been written.  But 
like Explorer, the target audience doesn't want to mess with 
configuration as much, and therefor the configuration can't be free-form.

Remember I mentioned that Litestep is a *replacement* shell?  Well, you 
could take a KDE system as your "standard", and replace the KDE

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Fidel | 27 Sep 01:18

Re: Re: LiteStep and Linux?

Not to mention, that Litestep was loosely based on a shell that was
originally for linux anyway.  Nice to see your still around jugg.

On 9/12/07, chris <jugg@...> wrote:
> What makes Litestep... Litestep is simply a plain text based
> configuration system that loads plugins and provides access to Windows
> shell resources for those plugins.  Litestep is a *replacement* shell
> (keep that in mind).
>
> The thing that people don't understand is that *underneath* of Litestep
> is a standardized OS and shell services that doesn't vary much from one
> person's desktop to the next.  So regardless of how archaic Litestep may
> be to some peoples view point, they can still work with it because
> everything else on their OS is familiar (notepad, explorer file manager,
> alt+tab, download-able install packages etc).  There is no learning
> curve beyond Litestep.
>
> Now jump into Linux... a whole different story.  There are desktop
> environments (DE) out there that are also a plain text file
> configuration that load plugins.  Not really any different than what we
> see in Litestep.  The biggest difference is what is running under the
> DE... the resources provided.  Because the OS setup could be any
> combination of distro, window manager etc, this type of DE does not get
> a lot of support or plugins written for it, and the plugins that do get
> written for it are probably not going to target the same resources you
> have available on your system.
>
> So, the big fellas, KDE, GNOME... the ones that have included the
> kitchen sink, well for these a lot of plugins have been written.  But
> like Explorer, the target audience doesn't want to mess with

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Roy Gathercoal | 27 Sep 09:56

Re: Re: LiteStep and Linux?

I think I got this. Linux (at least as it exists now) already requires 
some sort of shell and you can stick any of a number of shells into/onto 
a particular Linux distribution. So LiteStep, which is from its seeds 
designed to replace Explorer, would be unnecessary in a Linux system. 
Why would you want to replace something when you could choose what to 
put there in the first place?

Thanks for inviting me, Chris, I hope you don't regret it!

chris wrote:
> What makes Litestep... Litestep is simply a plain text based 
> configuration system that loads plugins and provides access to Windows 
> shell resources for those plugins.  Litestep is a *replacement* shell 
> (keep that in mind).
>. . .

>. . . 

As when replacing
> Explorer in Windows, one would have to offer interfaces to the KDE 
> services etc.  With that, you would now have a replacement shell for KDE 
> systems (whether that replacement shell was written in the vein of 
> geoshell, bblean, or litestep is besides the point).
> 
> "Litestep for Linux" is an oxymoron.
> 
> chris
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

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