Re: Re: Was vs became Jesus and creation from nothing
Hi Bart and Gregory, I would also like to join the discussion.
Let me first address Bart's teleportation problem. We do know from scriptures when we are rejoined with
Jesus, that we are to have new bodies which are not corrupt as which we have now. scientifically speaking,
the entering of Jesus into the room and the translation of Enoch and Elisha in th Old Testament, may be a
working of molecular phase relationships. Let us say in our new bodies we will have such control we can
change the electrical phase of the gluons and other tiny particles so that we are able to pass from the world
we see now to the dimensions outside of our 4 dimensional universe. Once we entered such a stste time would
not pass for us. When we reentered the 4D universe we could reenter anywhere we desired, but no time would
have passed. If such were true Jesus could have gone f
rom one meeting where He was witnessed to the next all in the same few minutes because the only time where time
passed would be when He was in our universe. This is one
of the things scientists hope could be achieved by the LHC, although they will not admit it. The search for
the God particle. This cannot be proven, and is only speculation, but I have reasons to believe this is close.
As Gregory discussed, evolution even as a concept that is was used by God, is highly unlikely. Two things
which have come to light over the past 30 years have totally destroyed Macro Evolution, which means
creating life out of nothing or sludge.
1. The concept of irreducible complexity as noted by the Flagella, which could never be produced by
evolution because none of the parts if they evolved one at a time would be kept, because none of them would
beb useful unless all the others were there as well. search irreducible complexity to study the mouse trap
model, which is an easy to understand description.
2. DNA has proven we are designed intact because it is coded, just like computer software. PCs are
programmed in binary code ones and zeros and DNA is a quaternary code AGCT. Before I learned computer
coding , I could be convinced about evolution of some kind, but a programmer can see how DNA is just like
programs we write. In fact if DNA is ever going to be figured out, it will be a programmer who does it.
That being said, Darwin did prove micro evolution and creationist scientists agree. micro evolution
actually aligns with the Bible, because it explains how Noah could take the essential 18,000 species on
board the ark, and now we have about 475,000 species, because small changes are not only possible but
observable on a daily basis. Even though small changes are ongoing, each multiplies after it own kind as it
did in the beginning. We won't know exactly what kind means until we solve the program and all the
subroutines of DNA.
The longer I study the Word of God, and observe the history and nature of God, the more inclined I am to take all
of it literally, except where symbolism or some other method of literature is indicated by the scripture
itself. So my methodology is too examine scripture and accept it, but to examine creation to see what can be
learned about creation from the scripture and vice versa.
I did not used to believe in a literal six day creation, but I came to believe on faith and wait on the lord for
the answer. Then I was made aware of how two secular scientists discovered some things about our universe.
One discovered the universe was expanding and figured the rate of expansion, which gives credence to the
big bang. The other a mathematician used those figures and the age of the universe to figure a number which
ended with the result of six. The idea being as the universe expanded physically time was stretched with
the fabric of the universe, so that there were 6 periods of this time/space expansion. That means God could
create 15 billions of years worth of universe in six 24 hour periods reckoning by the center of the universe
as the reference. Yeah I know, at first it is
hard to wrap your mind around, but the math is incontrovertible and again it aligns with scripture, in that
God said in the end times knowledge would increase like
Physicists now believe we live in ten dimensions and six are quantum. in the year 1250AD Nachmonides said
the same thing and he derived his theory of ten dimensions from Genesis alone. I always wonder if we had
allowed science to be steered by scripture rather than religions of man, how far could we have come by now?
Shalom aleichem hachaver shelim.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Bartholomew" <gregory.lee.bartholomew@...>
To: "ancient hebrew" <ancient_hebrew@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 11:14:05 AM
Subject: Re: [ancient_hebrew] Re: Was vs became Jesus and creation from nothing
You are not alone in thinking that it might be possible to "mix" the two
somehow. If you feel like trying to make the case for it, I'll hear you
out and debate the issue. The two are fundamentally different in my
view because one achieves ordered complexity by means of random chance
and the other by deliberate reason. Those two methods are fundamentally
different -- if you are using reason then you are not using chance and
vice versa. Time isn't the issue. It may have taken "time" to work it
out regardless of whether God used chance or reason to design this universe.
As for teleportation in the Bible, I can think of at least one other
place that such an event is recorded and that is in the book of Acts.
-- Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And
he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the
eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Now when they
came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so
that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. But
Philip was found at Azotus. (Acts 8:37-40 NKJV)
There may be other cases as well where various angelic beings
spontaneously appeared in solid form.
The main problems with Evolution are
1) I'm not at all convinced that the required level of complexity can be
achieved by that means.
2) Other miracles that are detailed throughout the Bible indicate that
God can instantaneously bring into existence complex forms of matter.
It is like having a pair of dice and needing them to be turned to show 7
and deciding to roll them until you get the desired value rather than
deliberately turning them that way by hand -- if you can do it by chance
or by deliberation, why use chance?
3) Because the two are fundamentally opposite methods, the more one is
used the less the other and when you take the credit for creation away
from God to give it to random chance, you take away God's authority over
creation as its creator and, implicitly, His power over it (a God that
requires billions of years of chance to get creation right is a much
weaker God than one that calls order into existence instantaneously).
On 03/14/2011 11:05 PM, Bart wrote:
> 'As for creation out of "nothing", how about the story of the appearence
> of Christ in solid bodly form in a closed room after His crusifixtion?'
> Well, that would only be "creation from nothing" if you believed that,
> immediately before He appeared in the room, Christ had ceased to exist.
> Otherwise, He's simply teleporting from place to place instead of
> recreating Himself from nothing, although I guess Star Trek-style
> teleporting could be termed a sort of destruction/creation. I sort of
> see it as something to do with the particle/wave duality, maybe? He can
> exist as a wave until He enters a room with observers, or something, I
> don't know, I hadn't considered that case before and I'm just
> brainstorming now. Talking about teleporting in the Bible kind of makes
> me laugh, though it's probably borderline sacrilegious. ;)
> I just wanted to make the point that evolution isn't "inherently"
> anti-God in my opinion -- that a belief in evolution doesn't necessarily
> rule out a belief in God. I think it's possible to believe in both.
> Anyway, that's my opinion. :)
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