Amy Ostrom | 12 Dec 17:00
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Laundry list for NGC (long post)

Dear NGC4Libbers:

I have not been able to keep up with all the posts, but it seems no one will just create a substantial list - too much theory and questioning/doubt behind everything.  I don't know about anyone else, but I am myself an end user, and I have a LOT of things I would love to see.  I don't care if it is done in collaboration with Amazon, or Worldcat, or any organization, but this is what I want.  I hope this proves beneficial.  (Apologies in advance for a long post.)

*I want it all in one place with option to see more or less (if it's on a booklist let me know, if it has reviews let me see them, put it all in the same place; if the library has it in audio and book format, put it in the same record!, seriously, if one type isn't in, I'll take another format - I don't want to click on 15 records just to find something; I also want to be able to hide some stuff if it is too cluttered)

*I want descriptions, dangit!  And why does no software exist for integrating series information in the catalog??  I want to know what the next book is!  (nothing like clicking on something you think you know what it is, and then it really isn't.  I HATE that for something I might be interested in, I have to go to Amazon first to find anything)

*I want to see related/similar materials (I want a smarter version of http://www.literature-map.com/, either to graphically display the closeness of the book/author, or to at least list what others think are close)

*I want to make wishlists and my own booklists (heck, if I read an awesome series, I want to let others see these books if they share similar tastes; also I may not have time to read right now, but doesn't mean I want to forget a book I found that might be worth reading later)

*I want pictures!  (I am visual, I'll know it's the right book if I can see it first; I want to see a sample of of the content as well, but would settle for a description)

*I want suggested searches and ways to narrow or broaden the search I made (if I can't remember the name or misspell it, I want it to act like Amazon and pull up suggested spellings or related searches, also broken down by category)

*I want the search to pull up the RIGHT materials (rank by popularity would work better than what item was last cataloged; Amazon is very good with its algorithm, it's not that hard to replicate - we can record how many times a record was viewed and how many times it was checked out, we know its publication date, we know its format, why can't we organize the search better?)

*I want an RSS feed for new items based on a search query (heck yeah I want to know what just came in without going to the catalog every day so I can get my hold on it ASAP, but I don't want to know EVERY item that is purchased, only what I am looking for; great for current awareness as well)

*I want to see the newly available items, especially in DVDs, CDs, and games (not just an RSS feed out, but actually on the site!)

*I want to know how long the wait list is, in days and or queue location (if it's too long, I'll just go buy the item)

*I want permalinks, so I can link to a book from my blog to the catalog instead of to amazon or remember easily how to get back to it without running the search again (I am all about promoting the library, but Amazon is better than the library could ever be with marketing and promoting, let's take their example!)

*It would be awesome to create my custom display, so I see what I want in the color I like (okay, it's a stretch, but it's all about customizing and personalizing these days)

*I want a map to show me the general shelf I might find my item (so many times an item was pulled out of the general collection and I pull my hair out in frustration)

*I want a library where I only have to sign in once, ONCE! (in my library catalog, every time I place a hold I have to enter my information; I log on, and I get signed out after maybe ten minutes of idleness - I'm probably surfing Amazon to find the RIGHT book...)

*I want to be able to turn on alerts for things like service outages, due dates, and overdues with quick access to renew, let alone modify my account profile and add password hints... (people are very forgetful)


So, from these wants, here is a basic (non-comprehensive) list of features we need to build a better catalog:

1.  XML format
2.  More (and better) content
3.  More pictures
4.  Smarter search engine
5.  RSS on the fly
6.  Commenting!!  Commenting!!
7.  User accounts
8.  Single sign-in
9.  User created lists/content
10. Permalinks
11. FRBR 2.0
12. Highly customizable interface
13. Highly user-friendly account settings/options
14. Smart spell-check aka related spelling/search terms
15. Organizable search results

So for those who aren't very technical and are kind of freaking out about the grocery list, the basic configurations should still be in tact with ability to enable the customization tools.  I am tired of code that is falling apart, personally, and I would love to have a "skin" collection similar to MySpace, where you can pick or share your theme (with small customizations for name, etc), so the smaller libraries can also have a pretty catalog.  Or even being able to share the customized configuration files without loss of security?  Seems like the world, but aren't we paying a fortune for these systems?

--

In peace,

Amy M Ostrom
Web Interface Designer
amostrom <at> gmail.com

Joshua Ferraro | 13 Dec 20:50
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Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post)

Hey Amy,

I've just got a bit to add:

On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 10:00:54AM -0600, Amy Ostrom wrote:

> *I want descriptions, dangit! And why does no software exist for > integrating series information in the catalog?? I want to know what the > next book is! (nothing like clicking on something you think you know what > it is, and then it really isn't. I HATE that for something I might be > interested in, I have to go to Amazon first to find anything)
The main reason is that the formats that records are typically cataloged in (various flavours of MARC), don't really have a standard way of representing this information in a machine readable way (or if they do I haven't been able to discover it). It may be that somewhere in the morass of MARC series records there is a way to extract the relationships between items in a given series. Until someone enlightens me, or I have a chance to either wade through the specification or figure out a way around it, the best way I know of to help the user discover the next book in a given series is to: 1. present series links as a faceted result after a search for a given work so that the user can limit the search to just that series: http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/search?q=the+baroque+cycle 2. clearly mark the series title on the detail page as a link so that the user can do a search for the rest of the series: http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/bib/133802 3. as much as possible, include the relevant non-coded (and therefore not machine readable) series information so the user can see it when looking at the record (see the detail page link above for the 'v. 1.' indicator next to the Series link). Anyone have any other practical ideas for how to solve this tricky problem? Cheers, -- Joshua Ferraro SUPPORT FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE President, Technology migration, training, maintenance, support LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS jmf <at> liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
Duimovich, George | 13 Dec 17:39
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Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post)

Thank-you for your "long post" and also to Joshua Ferraro and others for following up on comparing your list to Koha's capabilities. I'm sure a similar comparison with Evergreen would hold up too...
 
I'm sympathetic with your reference to "too much theory and questioning/doubt behind everything" although for different reasons. Admitedly, it is a necessary part of moving forward, but personally I find reading this list often frustrating because too many of us remain unable (for a variety of reasons) to re-world test the various proposals, wish-lists and funky ideas that come out of here.  It's really crazy that not enough of us are better positioned to say "hey, great idea, let's check it out." The OSS folks are exceptional in this regard, as we saw a small example of this with Joshua's reply to Dan Mullineux's post earlier.
 
I won't argue the point in any detail, but the innovative folks at Koha & Evergreen, the numerous other library-related efforts around open source (e.g http://researcher.sfu.ca/), and most critical of all, our current vendor marketplace realities, should point many of us towards seriously challenging our arrangements with the "COBOL Cartel" and supporting & building upon OSS efforts whenever possible.
 
I hope to see more practical reference points on this list to balance the talk about what we want **with what will help us get there.**  Because in my mind, who care's what we want if our ability to explore "getting there" remains so limited (in reference of course to those of us stuck with one of the Big 3).
 
BTW, here's a related rant here where I say: "Vendors keep merging!!!" in regards to the recent Ex Libris/Endeavor merger:
Joshua Ferraro | 12 Dec 21:28
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Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?

Amy,

Thanks for such a great list. Out of curiosity I compared the
functionality you describe to the some of the current functionality of
Koha ZOOM's new search engine (Koha was the first open-source ILS). Here's what
I came up with:

On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 10:00:54AM -0600, Amy Ostrom wrote:
>    *I want it all in one place with option to see more or less (if it's on a
>    booklist let me know, if it has reviews let me see them, put it all in the
>    same place; if the library has it in audio and book format, put it in the
>    same record!, seriously, if one type isn't in, I'll take another format -
>    I don't want to click on 15 records just to find something; I also want to
>    be able to hide some stuff if it is too cluttered)
Right, so this is a biggie. Koha's had a concept of a 'metarecord' since
version 1.0. Give this a shot:

http://www.library.org.nz.
Search on "harry potter and the chamber of secrets"

The item record:
http://www.library.org.nz/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?bib=35551
contains several material types: Video, DVD, Fiction, Talking Book, etc.

When you go to place a reserve, it'll ask you whether you care about the
material type or not ... if you don't it'll just pull the next avaialble
one.

>    *I want descriptions, dangit!  And why does no software exist for
>    integrating series information in the catalog??  I want to know what the
>    next book is!  (nothing like clicking on something you think you know what
>    it is, and then it really isn't.  I HATE that for something I might be
>    interested in, I have to go to Amazon first to find anything)
So ... how about having Amazon.com descriptions in your catalog ... and
how about having them downloaded in real time as you pull up the record?
Amazon licenses this material for free under its Associates and
Developer programs.

Here's what that looks like using Koha ZOOM's Amazon module:

http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/bib/158735

Heck, why limit yourself to descriptions, take a look at the ratings and
reviews as well. And while you're at it, might as well click on the
image which takes you directly to the book itself so you can read it
online.

>    *I want to see related/similar materials (I want a smarter version of
>    http://www.literature-map.com/, either to graphically display the
>    closeness of the book/author, or to at least list what others think are
>    close)
Very cool idea. How about this implementation:
http://library.neu.edu.tr/cgi-bin/koha/opac-main.pl

Do a search on 'harry potter' and then click on any of the links in the 'Shelf'
column -- you should get a popup with a map and even some little
animated arrows to show you how to get to the shelf.

>    *I want to make wishlists and my own booklists (heck, if I read an awesome
>    series, I want to let others see these books if they share similar tastes;
>    also I may not have time to read right now, but doesn't mean I want to
>    forget a book I found that might be worth reading later)
Right, so in Koha this is done with a feature called 'virtual shelves'.
You can add as many shelves to your account as you want, and can make
them visible to others or keep them to yourself. Librarians can also
make lists that everyone can see. Have a look:

http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/cgi-bin/koha/opac-shelves.pl

Of course, to create your own you'd have to log in, etc ...

>    *I want pictures!  (I am visual, I'll know it's the right book if I can
>    see it first; I want to see a sample of of the content as well, but would
>    settle for a description)
http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/search?q=harry+potter

The images are pulled from Amazon.com under the same agreement as
mentioned above.

>    *I want suggested searches and ways to narrow or broaden the search I made
>    (if I can't remember the name or misspell it, I want it to act like Amazon
>    and pull up suggested spellings or related searches, also broken down by
>    category)
So ... notice the faceted results in the above query. You can use them
to refine your search.

There is also a link at the top 'limit to currently available items'.

Also, check out the re-sort options on the right-hand top of the results
page, you can even resort by popularity!

Spellchecking ... the system automatically incorporates a fuzzy operator
into every query so that catches most spelling errors. There's a backup
spellcheck in case the fuzzy operator didn't catch anything, here's what
that looks like:

http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/search?q=neeel+stephenson

>    *I want the search to pull up the RIGHT materials (rank by popularity
>    would work better than what item was last cataloged; Amazon is very good
>    with its algorithm, it's not that hard to replicate - we can record how
>    many times a record was viewed and how many times it was checked out, we
>    know its publication date, we know its format, why can't we organize the
>    search better?)
Yea, this is a biggie. Koha ZOOM's results algorithm has been fine-tuned
based on library specifications. This means we actually sat down with a
bunch of librarians and did walked through some searches to see how they
wanted the system to behave. Here are some examples:

Single word titles:
http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/search?q=it
http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/search?q=the

Series titles:
http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/search?q=the+baroque+cycle

In the case of Athens County, they didn't want popularity to be included
in the rank, but they did want it to be available as a re-sort option.
But ultimately, how the search should work is up to the library.

>    *I want an RSS feed for new items based on a search query (heck yeah I
>    want to know what just came in without going to the catalog every day so I
>    can get my hold on it ASAP, but I don't want to know EVERY item that is
>    purchased, only what I am looking for; great for current awareness as
>    well)
So what you want is RSS feeds on search criteria. Hmmm ... well that's
pretty simple, Koha uses OpenSearch for that. Have a look:

http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/search?q=neal+stephenson

(look for the little RSS icon after 'currently available items' ... it's
an RSS feed of whatever search you just did ...) So you could do a
search on say, the latest DVDs, then copy that RSS feed link into your
RSS reader and it would track if anything on that list changed.

There's a separate RSS feature unrelated to OpenSearch that just tracks
the latest items added to the collection. The Northland College uses
this here: https://libcat.nbbc.edu/ (check the 'RSS Feed of Recently
Acquired Items' link at the bottom of the page).

>    *I want to see the newly available items, especially in DVDs, CDs, and
>    games (not just an RSS feed out, but actually on the site!)
How about a sort based on date acquired that you can turn into a link to
put on your website:

http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us (look for the link on the
right-hand side 'See Our Newest DVDs')

>    *I want to know how long the wait list is, in days and or queue location
>    (if it's too long, I'll just go buy the item)
Very cool idea. Koha ZOOM does tell you where you are in the queue and
when the item is due back ... but I suppose it would require a bit of
trickiness to calculate how long you'd have to wait if you weren't the
next in the list ... hmmm, I'll give that some thought.

>    *I want permalinks, so I can link to a book from my blog to the catalog
>    instead of to amazon or remember easily how to get back to it without
>    running the search again (I am all about promoting the library, but Amazon
>    is better than the library could ever be with marketing and promoting,
>    let's take their example!)
How about permalinks by record ID or ISBN:

http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/bib/16595
http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/isbn/0375502246

>    *It would be awesome to create my custom display, so I see what I want in
>    the color I like (okay, it's a stretch, but it's all about customizing and
>    personalizing these days)
Hehe ... yea, stay tuned for this one. We're implementing a stylesheet
switcher that will allow you to change the color on the fly ...

What would be really slick is to re-implement the OPAC using one of the
available UI libraries (like Yahoo's maybe), that would allow the user
to actually move items around on the screen, etc. ... I'll give that
some thought as well.

>    *I want a map to show me the general shelf I might find my item (so many
>    times an item was pulled out of the general collection and I pull my hair
>    out in frustration)
See the link I posted above about the shelf location map ...

>    *I want a library where I only have to sign in once, ONCE! (in my library
>    catalog, every time I place a hold I have to enter my information; I log
>    on, and I get signed out after maybe ten minutes of idleness - I'm
>    probably surfing Amazon to find the RIGHT book...)
Koha's session management takes care of that. You sign in once, it remembers
who you are. It even has the amazon-style 'click here if you're not So
and So'.

>    *I want to be able to turn on alerts for things like service outages, due
>    dates, and overdues with quick access to renew, let alone modify my
>    account profile and add password hints... (people are very forgetful)
Libraries can turn these on globally. Off the top of my head we've got:

  * overdue notices via email or RSS
  * hold request status via email or RSS
  * due dates warnings via email or RSS

You can also (of course) place holds, renew items online, check your
account balance (and soon you'll be able to pay it with paypal).

It would be really slick to allow a patron to turn on alerts, etc on their account.

>    So, from these wants, here is a basic (non-comprehensive) list of features
>    we need to build a better catalog:
>
>    1.  XML format
>    2.  More (and better) content
>    3.  More pictures
>    4.  Smarter search engine
>    5.  RSS on the fly
>    6.  Commenting!!  Commenting!!
>    7.  User accounts
>    8.  Single sign-in
>    9.  User created lists/content
>    10. Permalinks
>    11. FRBR 2.0
>    12. Highly customizable interface
>    13. Highly user-friendly account settings/options
>    14. Smart spell-check aka related spelling/search terms
>    15. Organizable search results
>
>    So for those who aren't very technical and are kind of freaking out about
>    the grocery list, the basic configurations should still be in tact with
>    ability to enable the customization tools.  I am tired of code that is
>    falling apart, personally, and I would love to have a "skin" collection
>    similar to MySpace, where you can pick or share your theme (with small
>    customizations for name, etc), so the smaller libraries can also have a
>    pretty catalog.  Or even being able to share the customized configuration
>    files without loss of security?  Seems like the world, but aren't we
>    paying a fortune for these systems?
The skin idea is fantastic. I'd love to explore that with Koha ...

Since you brought up payment, I'll just take this opportunity to say
that all of the features I've reviewed above were sponsored by libraries
who, at one point or another, had the same idea you did. Most of the
libraries I've cited don't even have a tech staff implementing these
features, they hired Koha companies to create the features and contribute
them back to the community.

I should also mention that Koha's search engine is built on top of Zebra
(http://indexdata.dk/zebra), an open-source indexing engine, and that in
addition to the amazing flexibility in terms of search options, it can
easily scale to tens of millions of records with no performance loss.

Anyway, thanks for the list, it was fun filling in the answers ;-).
There's a lot more functionality in Koha ZOOM but that's probably best
saved for another email.

Cheers,

--
Joshua Ferraro                       SUPPORT FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE
President, Technology       migration, training, maintenance, support
LibLime                                Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS
jmf <at> liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS

Karen Coyle | 13 Dec 01:13

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?


Joshua Ferraro wrote: > The item record: > http://www.library.org.nz/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?bib=35551 > contains several material types: Video, DVD, Fiction, Talking Book, etc. >
This is one of those areas where systems designers have been locking horns with the cataloging rules for quite a while. It even has its own name: the multiple versions problem, or "mulver." I would love to see the next generation of rules fix this... The current rules require that each Manifestation (in FRBR-speak) have its own bibliographic record. In the case of copies (a microfilm copy of a journal), the records for the original and the copy are virtually identical because they must both describe the original item. In the case of items that were issued in multiple formats, each format gets its own cataloging. Today, the difference between "different formats" and "copies" is blurred: is a case of a document in Word that is also saved as PDF a copy, or a different format? What if you can't tell which is the "original"? Anyway, what many libraries would like to see (and some are doing already in a kludge) is using the MARC Holdings record or their library system's item record to record the data, much like it appears Koha does. But those libraries cannot share that data in that format, because it violates the MARC standard and the cataloging rules. It also doesn't provide them with the fields they need to provide all of the format-specific data (i.e. the print book is 300 pages long and the audio book is 6 CDs and lasts 8 hours, and is read by Mr. T.) With the big digitization projects going on, this means that every time a book is digitized, a new record will be added to the library catalog. Sheeeesh! And not good library service. My fear is that the next set of rules will not address this issue, but systems designers will be expected to magically make the data look more like what the user wants. kc -- ----------------------------------- Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net http://www.kcoyle.net ph.: 510-540-7596 fx.: 510-848-3913 mo.: 510-435-8234 ------------------------------------
Joshua Ferraro | 13 Dec 07:02
Favicon

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?

On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 04:13:47PM -0800, Karen Coyle wrote:
> This is one of those areas where systems designers have been locking
> horns with the cataloging rules for quite a while. It even has its own
> name: the multiple versions problem, or "mulver."
No kidding ... I can't tell you how many hours I've spent mulling this
issue over -- it's a serious problem! ... clever name btw :-)

> I would love to see
> the next generation of rules fix this... The current rules require that
> each Manifestation (in FRBR-speak) have its own bibliographic record. In
> the case of copies (a microfilm copy of a journal), the records for the
> original and the copy are virtually identical because they must both
> describe the original item. In the case of items that were issued in
> multiple formats, each format gets its own cataloging. Today, the
> difference between "different formats" and "copies" is blurred: is a
> case of a document in Word that is also saved as PDF a copy, or a
> different format? What if you can't tell which is the "original"?
> Anyway, what many libraries would like to see (and some are doing
> already in a kludge) is using the MARC Holdings record or their library
> system's item record to record the data, much like it appears Koha does.
> But those libraries cannot share that data in that format, because it
> violates the MARC standard and the cataloging rules. It also doesn't
> provide them with the fields they need to provide all of the
> format-specific data (i.e. the print book is 300 pages long and the
> audio book is 6 CDs and lasts 8 hours, and is read by Mr. T.) With the
> big digitization projects going on, this means that every time a book is
> digitized, a new record will be added to the library catalog. Sheeeesh!
> And not good library service.
So there's actually a rather elegant way to handle this issue without
changing any of the current standards (though by all means, lets push
for change). The method I've concluded is best in the meantime is to
abstract groups of MARC records into a 'MetaRecord', that contains all
of the data of each of the records in that group. The group retains all
the characteristics of each of the individual records, but has the added
feature of establishing a relationship between the records in the group.

The Koha community has been doing some experiments with this idea for a
few months with our shiny new Zebra integration, and it's definitely the
direction we're taking for the next generation search engine.

In tech-speak, the MetaRecord will be an XML schema that is a
conglomeration of the MARCXML definition. Zebra makes the process of
defining a new set of indexes a pretty trivial exercise, so once the XML
is properly defined, it's pretty simple to set up a parallel index
and run the regular MARC database side by side with the MetaRecord one.

At that point, the MetaRecord database is really just another Z39.50
target with some funky XML format types that break down nicely into MARC
records, which our tools can already parse and display -- so building the
UI is a fairly trivial exercise as well.

The only remaining piece is how to establish the relationships in the
first place. There's been a fair amount of work on this already in FRBR
projects; xisbn is a possible service-based approach to solving the
problem in real time for certain content types. There's also some fairly
common sense aproaches that will work in most cases, such as simple
field comparisons with existing records in the database, etc.

In this way, you don't need to break MARC at all, just fit it inside a
more general container for the initial search and retrieve operation.
Once the user finds what they're looking for, just present them with
various ways to further refine their interest, narrow down to material
type, language, or whatever ...

> My fear is that the next set of rules will not address this issue, but
> systems designers will be expected to magically make the data look more
> like what the user wants.
I share your fear, but as a systems designer, I'm also looking for
practical ways we can utilize the existing data to its fullest -- a lot
of librarian-hours goes into creating the rich semantic data that
comprises a typical MARC record, and it's a real shame to lose the
ability to utilize it ...

Cheers,

--
Joshua Ferraro                       SUPPORT FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE
President, Technology       migration, training, maintenance, support
LibLime                                Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS
jmf <at> liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS

Mike Rylander | 13 Dec 06:33
Picon

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?

On 12/12/06, Karen Coyle <kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net> wrote:
> Joshua Ferraro wrote:
> > The item record:
> > http://www.library.org.nz/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?bib=35551
> > contains several material types: Video, DVD, Fiction, Talking Book, etc.
> >
> This is one of those areas where systems designers have been locking
> horns with the cataloging rules for quite a while. It even has its own
> name: the multiple versions problem, or "mulver." I would love to see
> the next generation of rules fix this... The current rules require that

[snip very good explanation]

> audio book is 6 CDs and lasts 8 hours, and is read by Mr. T.) With the
> big digitization projects going on, this means that every time a book is
> digitized, a new record will be added to the library catalog. Sheeeesh!
> And not good library service.

Which is why we built a matching/linking system around (instead of
inside) MARC for our actual (rather than conceptual, or MARC-mangling
;) ) metarecords in Evergreen.  The basic idea is that we
[non-librarian developers] know that you [librarians -- developers or
otherwise] know what you're doing when creating item descriptions and
storing them in MARC.  We don't want to trod on that, so we match and
link multiple records and display the common subset of information
instead of collapsing all records into one as Koha does in the example
above, AFAICT.

For instance, here's a metarecord title search for 'harry potter':

  http://gapines.org/opac/en-US/skin/default/xml/mresult.xml?tp=title&t=harry%20potter

While not an absolutely perfect grouping (the two Sorcerer's Stone
groups miss each other due to differing uniform titles), it's much
easier for the patrons to find a copy of what they want in any format
they'd like (click on the format icon below the title/author to get a
list of just those records).  Compare that to the direct record search
here:

  http://gapines.org/opac/en-US/skin/default/xml/rresult.xml?rt=title&tp=title&t=harry%20potter

I'd venture to say it works pretty darned well for a completely
automated system -- that's right, no cataloger intervention.
Cataloger tweaking is a planned addition, and will be slipped right
into the MARC import/create workflow at a sensible point as an extra
optional step.

>
> My fear is that the next set of rules will not address this issue, but
> systems designers will be expected to magically make the data look more
> like what the user wants.
>

Well, we are expected to do that now, without the benefit of the "next
set of rules", but give us some time and tools, and we'll get there.
:)

> kc
>
> --
> -----------------------------------
> Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant
> kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net http://www.kcoyle.net
> ph.: 510-540-7596
> fx.: 510-848-3913
> mo.: 510-435-8234
> ------------------------------------
>

--
Mike Rylander
mrylander <at> gmail.com
GPLS -- PINES Development
Database Developer
http://open-ils.org

Dobbs, Aaron | 13 Dec 02:09
Favicon

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?

Biblio ~ Book
Graphic ~ Representation
(or something loosely similar)

Maybe it's time for a semantic change?  (Away from container-based
description)

Arguably, a [book / video / recording / etc] is a container for (or
perhaps an iteration or expression of) the content (which is arguably
similar and certainly not exactly the same from book to released movie
to director's cut).

From a librarian point of view, the distinction is important
information.
From many users' points of view, the important thing is the succinctness
of the answer to a colloquial request, e.g. "Do you have Rocky VII,
yet?"

They don't want (as a user *I* certainly don't want) a list of five
separate records which will take five different clicks and backtracks
(for a total of at least 10 clicks) to find out that yes, we do have
Rocky VII - in (record 1) VHS, *click Back* *Click 2nd link* and in
(record 2) book, *click Back* *Click next link* and in (record 3) large
print, *click Back* *Click next link* and in (record 4) DVD, *click
Back* *Click next link* and in (record 5) a book with a slightly
different series title that is actually a duplicate of record 3.

The ubiquitous "they" want what the systems designers in the post below
want, a single response screen with info about *all* the related
expressions of the content -- and they want the power to decide which
expression will suit their needs at that moment in time.

To quote Karen(S) "The user isn't broken." If we accept KGS's
observation as valid, perhaps cataloging rules (which negatively impact
the users' desired record display) are the problem?  (No, I don't have
an elegant solution; I'd accept even a half-baked solution if it
presented itself and didn't break stuff in the process)

Individual records for individual records types have a purpose in an
inventory control sense, but these are artificial constraints when the
users' desires aren't fully known (as in a general keyword or other
free-text search).

-Aaron
:-)'

PS I just heard Rocky VII is in filming -- "Rocky 5000" doesn't seem so
far-fetched any more...

-----Original Message-----
From: Next generation catalogs for libraries
[mailto:NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Coyle
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 7:14 PM
To: NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu
Subject: Re: [NGC4LIB] Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha
measure up?

Joshua Ferraro wrote:
> The item record:
> http://www.library.org.nz/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?bib=35551
> contains several material types: Video, DVD, Fiction, Talking Book,
etc.
>
This is one of those areas where systems designers have been locking
horns with the cataloging rules for quite a while. It even has its own
name: the multiple versions problem, or "mulver." I would love to see
the next generation of rules fix this... The current rules require that
each Manifestation (in FRBR-speak) have its own bibliographic record. In
the case of copies (a microfilm copy of a journal), the records for the
original and the copy are virtually identical because they must both
describe the original item. In the case of items that were issued in
multiple formats, each format gets its own cataloging. Today, the
difference between "different formats" and "copies" is blurred: is a
case of a document in Word that is also saved as PDF a copy, or a
different format? What if you can't tell which is the "original"?
Anyway, what many libraries would like to see (and some are doing
already in a kludge) is using the MARC Holdings record or their library
system's item record to record the data, much like it appears Koha does.
But those libraries cannot share that data in that format, because it
violates the MARC standard and the cataloging rules. It also doesn't
provide them with the fields they need to provide all of the
format-specific data (i.e. the print book is 300 pages long and the
audio book is 6 CDs and lasts 8 hours, and is read by Mr. T.) With the
big digitization projects going on, this means that every time a book is
digitized, a new record will be added to the library catalog. Sheeeesh!
And not good library service.

My fear is that the next set of rules will not address this issue, but
systems designers will be expected to magically make the data look more
like what the user wants.

kc

--
-----------------------------------
Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net
http://www.kcoyle.net
ph.: 510-540-7596
fx.: 510-848-3913
mo.: 510-435-8234
------------------------------------

Casey Durfee | 12 Dec 22:08

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?

How are you doing the amazon content without violating their terms of service?  They limit you to 1 request/IP address/second and put strict limits on how long you can cache their information for.  You're not loading the Amazon content on the client side with JSON or something, so the Koha server is doing the requests for data from Amazon.  How is Koha getting around that limitation?
 
--Casey
 
>>> Joshua Ferraro jmf <at> liblime.com> 12/12/2006 12:28 PM >>


>    *I want descriptions, dangit!  And why does no software exist for
>    integrating series information in the catalog??  I want to know what the
>    next book is!  (nothing like clicking on something you think you know what
>    it is, and then it really isn't.  I HATE that for something I might be
>    interested in, I have to go to Amazon first to find anything)
So ... how about having Amazon.com descriptions in your catalog ... and
how about having them downloaded in real time as you pull up the record?
Amazon licenses this material for free under its Associates and
Developer programs.

Here's what that looks like using Koha ZOOM's Amazon module:

http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/bib/158735

Heck, why limit yourself to descriptions, take a look at the ratings and
reviews as well. And while you're at it, might as well click on the
image which takes you directly to the book itself so you can read it
online.
Joshua Ferraro | 13 Dec 03:27
Favicon

Use of Amazon.com Content in Koha's Catalog

Hey gang,

Over the past few years, since I wrote the original Amazon.com module
for Koha, I've received literally hundreds of complaints, mostly from
librarians, about the legality of Koha's use of Amazon.com's Web
Services. In fact, it's fair to say I've spent considerably more time
responding to these questions than I did writing the original module.

So the bottom line is, I wasn't surprised that within minutes of my
response to Amy's NGC list, the Amazon questions started pouring in :-).
I've gotten a few dozen already, some of which are on-list. Rather than
repeat myself, I'll just make one public statement on the topic, that
covers the typical questions raised; so please don't be offended if I
don't reply individually to all of you. I'd be happy to field any
additional questions on the topic on-list.

So ... first of all, shocking as it may seem, Koha has the capability to
use Amazon.com content in the OPAC. To see this in action, feel free to
visit the Athens Public Library's OPAC:

http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us.

It's perfectly legal to use the content. In fact, Amazon.com expressly
created the web services program so that people would use it. Their
business angle is no different than any other content provider -- they
expect to make money. The difference is that they don't want to make the
money from the people using the content. Instead, they are hoping that
the content will drive users to their website and that those users will
purchase something.

If you have hesitations about this business model and don't think your
library should be involved in it, no problem, you can simply
turn it off in your Koha installation and purchase similar services from
other content providers with more traditional compensation methods.
No-one is going to try to force you to use Amazon.com :-). And for the
record, I'd be happy to have a philosophical discussion about the rights
and wrongs of using public money to purchase non-traditional (or traditional
for that matter ) content services that promote a specific online company
any time. :-)

However, if, like the libraries that LibLime supports, you are on a tight
budget, yet want to provide your patrons with this content, Amazon.com's
alternative service model gives you that ability. Here's how it works
and why it's legal.

Let me preface this by adding that I've had extensive conversations with
Amazon.com's US legal department about Koha's use of Web Services, and
they have confirmed that Koha does not violate the terms of their
agreement. This point is worth making: they _want_ your library to use
their content :-).

First off, a bit of background on Amazon.com's Web Services Program.
The basic idea is that Amazon provides machine-readable access to
content they have for sale. That content is indexed by ISBN number,
which makes it trivial to identify a relationship between an item in a
library catalog and an item on Amazon.com. Here's what the Web Services
currently contain that libraries are interested in:

1. Item Jacket Cover Images
2. Item reviews by Amazon.com patrons
3. Item ratings by Amazon.com patrons
4. Professionaly written item descriptions and reviews

Koha's Amazon module can interact with Amazon.com's web services program
in several possible ways, in accordance with the license agreement[1] that
every Web Services user must abide by:

1. Koha can be configured to periodically download content en masse and
        locally cache the content on one of your library services and
        serve it to your users via the OPAC;
2. Koha can download the content in real-time as an OPAC page is loaded.

The Web Services agreement has very specific requirements about usage and
discusses both of these methods in great detail. The most relevant points
to this discussion are:

  * if content is cached locally, it must be updated every 24 hours;
  * if you download in real-time, you can only download up to 1000 items
        per IP address per day;
  * if you download in real-time, you cannot download more than one item per
        second per IP address.
  * if you use their content, you must provide a link back to _any_
        Amazon.com page

Since Koha's system supports both cacheing and real-time downloads of the
content, based on a library's usage patterns, they would need to determine
which method or combination of methods would work best for their situation.
Keep in mind that images are downloaded from the user's browser, not from the
Koha application, so the 1000 queries per day per IP address and 1/second rule
don't apply to the Koha server.

If a library didn't want to cache data locally, yet had more than 1000
views of their detail pages, it would be very trivial to simply track the
number of times that Amazon.com content was syndicated, and turn it off
after the day's cap. It would be similarly trivial to keep track of the
number of queries to detail pages per second and only permit one per
second; or to use javascript to download the content from the browser
rather than the server. It's not at all difficult to use Amazon's program
without abusing it. And it's ultimately up to each library to make an
informed decision about whether and how to use it.

So ... hope this qwells the fears somewhat. Feel free to ask for more
clarification.

Cheers,

--
Joshua Ferraro                       SUPPORT FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE
President, Technology       migration, training, maintenance, support
LibLime                                Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS
jmf <at> liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS

[1] Here's a link to the entire Web Services Agreement:
http://www.amazon.com/AWS-License-home-page-Money/b/ref=sc_fe_c_2_3434651_2/105-6373537-4758038?ie=UTF8&node=3440661&no=3434651&me=A36L942TSJ2AJA

GINTHER, Craig | 22 Feb 19:01
Picon
Favicon

Re: Use of Amazon.com Content in Koha's Catalog

Hello all, I was reviewing the message below in light of recent changes to Amazon Web Services (from ECS to
Amazon Associates) and see the following in the Terms of Use now, not sure if it was always there:

5.1.3. You are not permitted to use Amazon Associates Web Service with any Application or for any use that
does not have, as its principal purpose, driving traffic to the Amazon Website and driving sales of
products and services on the Amazon Website.

It seems to me that this may have some impact on use of Amazon for cover images in OPACs.  Thoughts on this?

-----Original Message-----
From: Next generation catalogs for libraries
[mailto:NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu]On Behalf Of Joshua Ferraro
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 9:27 PM
To: NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu
Subject: [NGC4LIB] Use of Amazon.com Content in Koha's Catalog

Hey gang,

Over the past few years, since I wrote the original Amazon.com module
for Koha, I've received literally hundreds of complaints, mostly from
librarians, about the legality of Koha's use of Amazon.com's Web
Services. In fact, it's fair to say I've spent considerably more time
responding to these questions than I did writing the original module.

So the bottom line is, I wasn't surprised that within minutes of my
response to Amy's NGC list, the Amazon questions started pouring in :-).
I've gotten a few dozen already, some of which are on-list. Rather than
repeat myself, I'll just make one public statement on the topic, that
covers the typical questions raised; so please don't be offended if I
don't reply individually to all of you. I'd be happy to field any
additional questions on the topic on-list.

So ... first of all, shocking as it may seem, Koha has the capability to
use Amazon.com content in the OPAC. To see this in action, feel free to
visit the Athens Public Library's OPAC:

http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us.

It's perfectly legal to use the content. In fact, Amazon.com expressly
created the web services program so that people would use it. Their
business angle is no different than any other content provider -- they
expect to make money. The difference is that they don't want to make the
money from the people using the content. Instead, they are hoping that
the content will drive users to their website and that those users will
purchase something.

If you have hesitations about this business model and don't think your
library should be involved in it, no problem, you can simply
turn it off in your Koha installation and purchase similar services from
other content providers with more traditional compensation methods.
No-one is going to try to force you to use Amazon.com :-). And for the
record, I'd be happy to have a philosophical discussion about the rights
and wrongs of using public money to purchase non-traditional (or traditional
for that matter ) content services that promote a specific online company
any time. :-)

However, if, like the libraries that LibLime supports, you are on a tight
budget, yet want to provide your patrons with this content, Amazon.com's
alternative service model gives you that ability. Here's how it works
and why it's legal.

Let me preface this by adding that I've had extensive conversations with
Amazon.com's US legal department about Koha's use of Web Services, and
they have confirmed that Koha does not violate the terms of their
agreement. This point is worth making: they _want_ your library to use
their content :-).

First off, a bit of background on Amazon.com's Web Services Program.
The basic idea is that Amazon provides machine-readable access to
content they have for sale. That content is indexed by ISBN number,
which makes it trivial to identify a relationship between an item in a
library catalog and an item on Amazon.com. Here's what the Web Services
currently contain that libraries are interested in:

1. Item Jacket Cover Images
2. Item reviews by Amazon.com patrons
3. Item ratings by Amazon.com patrons
4. Professionaly written item descriptions and reviews

Koha's Amazon module can interact with Amazon.com's web services program
in several possible ways, in accordance with the license agreement[1] that
every Web Services user must abide by:

1. Koha can be configured to periodically download content en masse and
        locally cache the content on one of your library services and
        serve it to your users via the OPAC;
2. Koha can download the content in real-time as an OPAC page is loaded.

The Web Services agreement has very specific requirements about usage and
discusses both of these methods in great detail. The most relevant points
to this discussion are:

  * if content is cached locally, it must be updated every 24 hours;
  * if you download in real-time, you can only download up to 1000 items
        per IP address per day;
  * if you download in real-time, you cannot download more than one item per
        second per IP address.
  * if you use their content, you must provide a link back to _any_
        Amazon.com page

Since Koha's system supports both cacheing and real-time downloads of the
content, based on a library's usage patterns, they would need to determine
which method or combination of methods would work best for their situation.
Keep in mind that images are downloaded from the user's browser, not from the
Koha application, so the 1000 queries per day per IP address and 1/second rule
don't apply to the Koha server.

If a library didn't want to cache data locally, yet had more than 1000
views of their detail pages, it would be very trivial to simply track the
number of times that Amazon.com content was syndicated, and turn it off
after the day's cap. It would be similarly trivial to keep track of the
number of queries to detail pages per second and only permit one per
second; or to use javascript to download the content from the browser
rather than the server. It's not at all difficult to use Amazon's program
without abusing it. And it's ultimately up to each library to make an
informed decision about whether and how to use it.

So ... hope this qwells the fears somewhat. Feel free to ask for more
clarification.

Cheers,

--
Joshua Ferraro                       SUPPORT FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE
President, Technology       migration, training, maintenance, support
LibLime                                Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS
jmf <at> liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS

[1] Here's a link to the entire Web Services Agreement:
http://www.amazon.com/AWS-License-home-page-Money/b/ref=sc_fe_c_2_3434651_2/105-6373537-4758038?ie=UTF8&node=3440661&no=3434651&me=A36L942TSJ2AJA

This e-mail originates from the City of Ottawa e-mail system. Any
distribution, use or copying of this e-mail or the information it
contains by other than the intended recipient(s) is unauthorized.
If you are not the intended recipient, please notify me at the
telephone number shown above or by return e-mail and delete
this communication and any copy immediately. Thank you.

Le présent courriel a été expédié par le système de courriels de
la Ville d'Ottawa. Toute distribution, utilisation ou
reproduction du courriel ou des renseignements qui s'y trouvent
par une personne autre que son destinataire prévu est interdite.
Si vous avez reçu le message par erreur, veuillez m'en aviser par
téléphone (au numéro précité) ou par courriel, puis supprimer
sans délai la version originale de la communication ainsi que
toutes ses copies. Je vous remercie de votre collaboration.

Jesse Haro | 19 Mar 20:54

Re: Use of Amazon.com Content in Koha's Catalog

I have been following the trail of conversation regarding Amazon.com and 
thought it worth sharing our recent experience with Amazon.  I 
oversee the OPAC environment for Phoenix Public and was the 
lead in implementing Amazon product data not only into our OPAC, but also 
directly into our bibliographic data for searching. We have implemented 
Endeca for our OPAC and have implemented various product elements into the 
search index.  Following the release of the Customer Service 
Agreement from Amazon this past December, we requested clarification from 
Amazon regarding the use of AWS for library catalogs and received the 
following response:

"Thank you for contacting Amazon Web Services.  Unfortunately your 
application does not comply with section 5.1.3 of the AWS Customer 
Agreement.  We do not allow Amazon Associates Web Service to be used for 
library catalogs.  Driving traffic back to Amazon must be the primary 
purpose for all applications using Amazon Associates Web
Service."

This response came from the support contact link on the AWS help pages. We 
are investigating the possibility of establishing a direct relationship 
with Amazon, however it appears that using AWS for purposes other than 
section 5.1.3 is in violation of their agreement. We have subsequently 
removed much of the Amazon content from our OPAC and are looking into 
other sources of enriched data.

Jesse Haro, Web Services Manager
Phoenix Public Library

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008, GINTHER, Craig wrote:

> Hello all, I was reviewing the message below in light of recent changes to Amazon Web Services (from ECS to
Amazon Associates) and see the following in the Terms of Use now, not sure if it was always there:
>
> 5.1.3. You are not permitted to use Amazon Associates Web Service with any Application or for any use that
does not have, as its principal purpose, driving traffic to the Amazon Website and driving sales of
products and services on the Amazon Website.
>
> It seems to me that this may have some impact on use of Amazon for cover images in OPACs.  Thoughts on this?
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Next generation catalogs for libraries
> [mailto:NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu]On Behalf Of Joshua Ferraro
> Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 9:27 PM
> To: NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu
> Subject: [NGC4LIB] Use of Amazon.com Content in Koha's Catalog
>
>
> Hey gang,
>
> Over the past few years, since I wrote the original Amazon.com module
> for Koha, I've received literally hundreds of complaints, mostly from
> librarians, about the legality of Koha's use of Amazon.com's Web
> Services. In fact, it's fair to say I've spent considerably more time
> responding to these questions than I did writing the original module.
>
> So the bottom line is, I wasn't surprised that within minutes of my
> response to Amy's NGC list, the Amazon questions started pouring in :-).
> I've gotten a few dozen already, some of which are on-list. Rather than
> repeat myself, I'll just make one public statement on the topic, that
> covers the typical questions raised; so please don't be offended if I
> don't reply individually to all of you. I'd be happy to field any
> additional questions on the topic on-list.
>
> So ... first of all, shocking as it may seem, Koha has the capability to
> use Amazon.com content in the OPAC. To see this in action, feel free to
> visit the Athens Public Library's OPAC:
>
> http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us.
>
> It's perfectly legal to use the content. In fact, Amazon.com expressly
> created the web services program so that people would use it. Their
> business angle is no different than any other content provider -- they
> expect to make money. The difference is that they don't want to make the
> money from the people using the content. Instead, they are hoping that
> the content will drive users to their website and that those users will
> purchase something.
>
> If you have hesitations about this business model and don't think your
> library should be involved in it, no problem, you can simply
> turn it off in your Koha installation and purchase similar services from
> other content providers with more traditional compensation methods.
> No-one is going to try to force you to use Amazon.com :-). And for the
> record, I'd be happy to have a philosophical discussion about the rights
> and wrongs of using public money to purchase non-traditional (or traditional
> for that matter ) content services that promote a specific online company
> any time. :-)
>
> However, if, like the libraries that LibLime supports, you are on a tight
> budget, yet want to provide your patrons with this content, Amazon.com's
> alternative service model gives you that ability. Here's how it works
> and why it's legal.
>
> Let me preface this by adding that I've had extensive conversations with
> Amazon.com's US legal department about Koha's use of Web Services, and
> they have confirmed that Koha does not violate the terms of their
> agreement. This point is worth making: they _want_ your library to use
> their content :-).
>
> First off, a bit of background on Amazon.com's Web Services Program.
> The basic idea is that Amazon provides machine-readable access to
> content they have for sale. That content is indexed by ISBN number,
> which makes it trivial to identify a relationship between an item in a
> library catalog and an item on Amazon.com. Here's what the Web Services
> currently contain that libraries are interested in:
>
> 1. Item Jacket Cover Images
> 2. Item reviews by Amazon.com patrons
> 3. Item ratings by Amazon.com patrons
> 4. Professionaly written item descriptions and reviews
>
> Koha's Amazon module can interact with Amazon.com's web services program
> in several possible ways, in accordance with the license agreement[1] that
> every Web Services user must abide by:
>
> 1. Koha can be configured to periodically download content en masse and
>        locally cache the content on one of your library services and
>        serve it to your users via the OPAC;
> 2. Koha can download the content in real-time as an OPAC page is loaded.
>
> The Web Services agreement has very specific requirements about usage and
> discusses both of these methods in great detail. The most relevant points
> to this discussion are:
>
>  * if content is cached locally, it must be updated every 24 hours;
>  * if you download in real-time, you can only download up to 1000 items
>        per IP address per day;
>  * if you download in real-time, you cannot download more than one item per
>        second per IP address.
>  * if you use their content, you must provide a link back to _any_
>        Amazon.com page
>
> Since Koha's system supports both cacheing and real-time downloads of the
> content, based on a library's usage patterns, they would need to determine
> which method or combination of methods would work best for their situation.
> Keep in mind that images are downloaded from the user's browser, not from the
> Koha application, so the 1000 queries per day per IP address and 1/second rule
> don't apply to the Koha server.
>
> If a library didn't want to cache data locally, yet had more than 1000
> views of their detail pages, it would be very trivial to simply track the
> number of times that Amazon.com content was syndicated, and turn it off
> after the day's cap. It would be similarly trivial to keep track of the
> number of queries to detail pages per second and only permit one per
> second; or to use javascript to download the content from the browser
> rather than the server. It's not at all difficult to use Amazon's program
> without abusing it. And it's ultimately up to each library to make an
> informed decision about whether and how to use it.
>
> So ... hope this qwells the fears somewhat. Feel free to ask for more
> clarification.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Joshua Ferraro                       SUPPORT FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE
> President, Technology       migration, training, maintenance, support
> LibLime                                Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS
> jmf <at> liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
>
> [1] Here's a link to the entire Web Services Agreement:
> http://www.amazon.com/AWS-License-home-page-Money/b/ref=sc_fe_c_2_3434651_2/105-6373537-4758038?ie=UTF8&node=3440661&no=3434651&me=A36L942TSJ2AJA
>
> This e-mail originates from the City of Ottawa e-mail system. Any
> distribution, use or copying of this e-mail or the information it
> contains by other than the intended recipient(s) is unauthorized.
> If you are not the intended recipient, please notify me at the
> telephone number shown above or by return e-mail and delete
> this communication and any copy immediately. Thank you.
>
> Le présent courriel a été expédié par le système de courriels de
> la Ville d'Ottawa. Toute distribution, utilisation ou
> reproduction du courriel ou des renseignements qui s'y trouvent
> par une personne autre que son destinataire prévu est interdite.
> Si vous avez reçu le message par erreur, veuillez m'en aviser par
> téléphone (au numéro précité) ou par courriel, puis supprimer
> sans délai la version originale de la communication ainsi que
> toutes ses copies. Je vous remercie de votre collaboration.
>
Tim Spalding | 19 Mar 23:12

Re: Use of Amazon.com Content in Koha's Catalog

That's awesome. I sure hope they shut down LibraryThing and all its
competitors, including the one they funded. We're the only one that
uses data from any other source—libraries.

T

On 3/19/08, Jesse Haro <jesse.haro <at> phxlib.org> wrote:
> I have been following the trail of conversation regarding Amazon.com and
>  thought it worth sharing our recent experience with Amazon.  I
>  oversee the OPAC environment for Phoenix Public and was the
>  lead in implementing Amazon product data not only into our OPAC, but also
>  directly into our bibliographic data for searching. We have implemented
>  Endeca for our OPAC and have implemented various product elements into the
>  search index.  Following the release of the Customer Service
>  Agreement from Amazon this past December, we requested clarification from
>  Amazon regarding the use of AWS for library catalogs and received the
>  following response:
>
>  "Thank you for contacting Amazon Web Services.  Unfortunately your
>  application does not comply with section 5.1.3 of the AWS Customer
>  Agreement.  We do not allow Amazon Associates Web Service to be used for
>  library catalogs.  Driving traffic back to Amazon must be the primary
>  purpose for all applications using Amazon Associates Web
>  Service."
>
>  This response came from the support contact link on the AWS help pages. We
>  are investigating the possibility of establishing a direct relationship
>  with Amazon, however it appears that using AWS for purposes other than
>  section 5.1.3 is in violation of their agreement. We have subsequently
>  removed much of the Amazon content from our OPAC and are looking into
>  other sources of enriched data.
>
>
>
>  Jesse Haro, Web Services Manager
>  Phoenix Public Library
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Fri, 22 Feb 2008, GINTHER, Craig wrote:
>
>  > Hello all, I was reviewing the message below in light of recent changes to Amazon Web Services (from ECS to
Amazon Associates) and see the following in the Terms of Use now, not sure if it was always there:
>  >
>  > 5.1.3. You are not permitted to use Amazon Associates Web Service with any Application or for any use that
does not have, as its principal purpose, driving traffic to the Amazon Website and driving sales of
products and services on the Amazon Website.
>  >
>  > It seems to me that this may have some impact on use of Amazon for cover images in OPACs.  Thoughts on this?
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: Next generation catalogs for libraries
>  > [mailto:NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu]On Behalf Of Joshua Ferraro
>  > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 9:27 PM
>  > To: NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu
>  > Subject: [NGC4LIB] Use of Amazon.com Content in Koha's Catalog
>  >
>  >
>  > Hey gang,
>  >
>  > Over the past few years, since I wrote the original Amazon.com module
>  > for Koha, I've received literally hundreds of complaints, mostly from
>  > librarians, about the legality of Koha's use of Amazon.com's Web
>  > Services. In fact, it's fair to say I've spent considerably more time
>  > responding to these questions than I did writing the original module.
>  >
>  > So the bottom line is, I wasn't surprised that within minutes of my
>  > response to Amy's NGC list, the Amazon questions started pouring in :-).
>  > I've gotten a few dozen already, some of which are on-list. Rather than
>  > repeat myself, I'll just make one public statement on the topic, that
>  > covers the typical questions raised; so please don't be offended if I
>  > don't reply individually to all of you. I'd be happy to field any
>  > additional questions on the topic on-list.
>  >
>  > So ... first of all, shocking as it may seem, Koha has the capability to
>  > use Amazon.com content in the OPAC. To see this in action, feel free to
>  > visit the Athens Public Library's OPAC:
>  >
>  > http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us.
>  >
>  > It's perfectly legal to use the content. In fact, Amazon.com expressly
>  > created the web services program so that people would use it. Their
>  > business angle is no different than any other content provider -- they
>  > expect to make money. The difference is that they don't want to make the
>  > money from the people using the content. Instead, they are hoping that
>  > the content will drive users to their website and that those users will
>  > purchase something.
>  >
>  > If you have hesitations about this business model and don't think your
>  > library should be involved in it, no problem, you can simply
>  > turn it off in your Koha installation and purchase similar services from
>  > other content providers with more traditional compensation methods.
>  > No-one is going to try to force you to use Amazon.com :-). And for the
>  > record, I'd be happy to have a philosophical discussion about the rights
>  > and wrongs of using public money to purchase non-traditional (or traditional
>  > for that matter ) content services that promote a specific online company
>  > any time. :-)
>  >
>  > However, if, like the libraries that LibLime supports, you are on a tight
>  > budget, yet want to provide your patrons with this content, Amazon.com's
>  > alternative service model gives you that ability. Here's how it works
>  > and why it's legal.
>  >
>  > Let me preface this by adding that I've had extensive conversations with
>  > Amazon.com's US legal department about Koha's use of Web Services, and
>  > they have confirmed that Koha does not violate the terms of their
>  > agreement. This point is worth making: they _want_ your library to use
>  > their content :-).
>  >
>  > First off, a bit of background on Amazon.com's Web Services Program.
>  > The basic idea is that Amazon provides machine-readable access to
>  > content they have for sale. That content is indexed by ISBN number,
>  > which makes it trivial to identify a relationship between an item in a
>  > library catalog and an item on Amazon.com. Here's what the Web Services
>  > currently contain that libraries are interested in:
>  >
>  > 1. Item Jacket Cover Images
>  > 2. Item reviews by Amazon.com patrons
>  > 3. Item ratings by Amazon.com patrons
>  > 4. Professionaly written item descriptions and reviews
>  >
>  > Koha's Amazon module can interact with Amazon.com's web services program
>  > in several possible ways, in accordance with the license agreement[1] that
>  > every Web Services user must abide by:
>  >
>  > 1. Koha can be configured to periodically download content en masse and
>  >        locally cache the content on one of your library services and
>  >        serve it to your users via the OPAC;
>  > 2. Koha can download the content in real-time as an OPAC page is loaded.
>  >
>  > The Web Services agreement has very specific requirements about usage and
>  > discusses both of these methods in great detail. The most relevant points
>  > to this discussion are:
>  >
>  >  * if content is cached locally, it must be updated every 24 hours;
>  >  * if you download in real-time, you can only download up to 1000 items
>  >        per IP address per day;
>  >  * if you download in real-time, you cannot download more than one item per
>  >        second per IP address.
>  >  * if you use their content, you must provide a link back to _any_
>  >        Amazon.com page
>  >
>  > Since Koha's system supports both cacheing and real-time downloads of the
>  > content, based on a library's usage patterns, they would need to determine
>  > which method or combination of methods would work best for their situation.
>  > Keep in mind that images are downloaded from the user's browser, not from the
>  > Koha application, so the 1000 queries per day per IP address and 1/second rule
>  > don't apply to the Koha server.
>  >
>  > If a library didn't want to cache data locally, yet had more than 1000
>  > views of their detail pages, it would be very trivial to simply track the
>  > number of times that Amazon.com content was syndicated, and turn it off
>  > after the day's cap. It would be similarly trivial to keep track of the
>  > number of queries to detail pages per second and only permit one per
>  > second; or to use javascript to download the content from the browser
>  > rather than the server. It's not at all difficult to use Amazon's program
>  > without abusing it. And it's ultimately up to each library to make an
>  > informed decision about whether and how to use it.
>  >
>  > So ... hope this qwells the fears somewhat. Feel free to ask for more
>  > clarification.
>  >
>  > Cheers,
>  >
>  > --
>  > Joshua Ferraro                       SUPPORT FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE
>  > President, Technology       migration, training, maintenance, support
>  > LibLime                                Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS
>  > jmf <at> liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
>  >
>  > [1] Here's a link to the entire Web Services Agreement:
>  > http://www.amazon.com/AWS-License-home-page-Money/b/ref=sc_fe_c_2_3434651_2/105-6373537-4758038?ie=UTF8&node=3440661&no=3434651&me=A36L942TSJ2AJA
>  >
>  > This e-mail originates from the City of Ottawa e-mail system. Any
>  > distribution, use or copying of this e-mail or the information it
>  > contains by other than the intended recipient(s) is unauthorized.
>  > If you are not the intended recipient, please notify me at the
>  > telephone number shown above or by return e-mail and delete
>  > this communication and any copy immediately. Thank you.
>  >
>  > Le présent courriel a été expédié par le système de courriels de
>  > la Ville d'Ottawa. Toute distribution, utilisation ou
>  > reproduction du courriel ou des renseignements qui s'y trouvent
>  > par une personne autre que son destinataire prévu est interdite.
>  > Si vous avez reçu le message par erreur, veuillez m'en aviser par
>  > téléphone (au numéro précité) ou par courriel, puis supprimer
>  > sans délai la version originale de la communication ainsi que
>  > toutes ses copies. Je vous remercie de votre collaboration.
>  >

--
Check out my library at http://www.librarything.com/profile/timspalding

David Kane | 20 Mar 00:43
Picon
Favicon

Re: Use of Amazon.com Content in Koha's Catalog

The new Google Books api (which we use on our catalogue
http://witcat.wit.ie/ ) uses cover art.  I wonder where G. Books gets their
art?  Could that be used?

David.

On 19/03/2008, Tim Spalding <tim <at> librarything.com> wrote:

> > That's awesome. I sure hope they shut down LibraryThing and all its > competitors, including the one they funded. We're the only one that > uses data from any other source—libraries. > > > T > > > On 3/19/08, Jesse Haro <jesse.haro <at> phxlib.org> wrote: > > I have been following the trail of conversation regarding Amazon.com and > > thought it worth sharing our recent experience with Amazon. I > > oversee the OPAC environment for Phoenix Public and was the > > lead in implementing Amazon product data not only into our OPAC, but > also > > directly into our bibliographic data for searching. We have implemented > > Endeca for our OPAC and have implemented various product elements into > the > > search index. Following the release of the Customer Service > > Agreement from Amazon this past December, we requested clarification > from > > Amazon regarding the use of AWS for library catalogs and received the > > following response: > > > > "Thank you for contacting Amazon Web Services. Unfortunately your > > application does not comply with section 5.1.3 of the AWS Customer > > Agreement. We do not allow Amazon Associates Web Service to be used > for > > library catalogs. Driving traffic back to Amazon must be the primary > > purpose for all applications using Amazon Associates Web > > Service." > > > > This response came from the support contact link on the AWS help pages. > We > > are investigating the possibility of establishing a direct relationship > > with Amazon, however it appears that using AWS for purposes other than > > section 5.1.3 is in violation of their agreement. We have subsequently > > removed much of the Amazon content from our OPAC and are looking into > > other sources of enriched data. > > > > > > > > Jesse Haro, Web Services Manager > > Phoenix Public Library > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 22 Feb 2008, GINTHER, Craig wrote: > > > > > Hello all, I was reviewing the message below in light of recent > changes to Amazon Web Services (from ECS to Amazon Associates) and see the > following in the Terms of Use now, not sure if it was always there: > > > > > > 5.1.3. You are not permitted to use Amazon Associates Web Service > with any Application or for any use that does not have, as its principal > purpose, driving traffic to the Amazon Website and driving sales of products > and services on the Amazon Website. > > > > > > It seems to me that this may have some impact on use of Amazon for > cover images in OPACs. Thoughts on this? > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Next generation catalogs for libraries > > > [mailto:NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu]On Behalf Of Joshua Ferraro > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 9:27 PM > > > To: NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu > > > Subject: [NGC4LIB] Use of Amazon.com Content in Koha's Catalog > > > > > > > > > Hey gang, > > > > > > Over the past few years, since I wrote the original Amazon.com module > > > for Koha, I've received literally hundreds of complaints, mostly from > > > librarians, about the legality of Koha's use of Amazon.com's Web > > > Services. In fact, it's fair to say I've spent considerably more time > > > responding to these questions than I did writing the original module. > > > > > > So the bottom line is, I wasn't surprised that within minutes of my > > > response to Amy's NGC list, the Amazon questions started pouring in > :-). > > > I've gotten a few dozen already, some of which are on-list. Rather > than > > > repeat myself, I'll just make one public statement on the topic, that > > > covers the typical questions raised; so please don't be offended if I > > > don't reply individually to all of you. I'd be happy to field any > > > additional questions on the topic on-list. > > > > > > So ... first of all, shocking as it may seem, Koha has the capability > to > > > use Amazon.com content in the OPAC. To see this in action, feel free > to > > > visit the Athens Public Library's OPAC: > > > > > > http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us. > > > > > > It's perfectly legal to use the content. In fact, Amazon.comexpressly > > > created the web services program so that people would use it. Their > > > business angle is no different than any other content provider -- > they > > > expect to make money. The difference is that they don't want to make > the > > > money from the people using the content. Instead, they are hoping > that > > > the content will drive users to their website and that those users > will > > > purchase something. > > > > > > If you have hesitations about this business model and don't think > your > > > library should be involved in it, no problem, you can simply > > > turn it off in your Koha installation and purchase similar services > from > > > other content providers with more traditional compensation methods. > > > No-one is going to try to force you to use Amazon.com :-). And for > the > > > record, I'd be happy to have a philosophical discussion about the > rights > > > and wrongs of using public money to purchase non-traditional (or > traditional > > > for that matter ) content services that promote a specific online > company > > > any time. :-) > > > > > > However, if, like the libraries that LibLime supports, you are on a > tight > > > budget, yet want to provide your patrons with this content, > Amazon.com's > > > alternative service model gives you that ability. Here's how it works > > > and why it's legal. > > > > > > Let me preface this by adding that I've had extensive conversations > with > > > Amazon.com's US legal department about Koha's use of Web Services, > and > > > they have confirmed that Koha does not violate the terms of their > > > agreement. This point is worth making: they _want_ your library to > use > > > their content :-). > > > > > > First off, a bit of background on Amazon.com's Web Services Program. > > > The basic idea is that Amazon provides machine-readable access to > > > content they have for sale. That content is indexed by ISBN number, > > > which makes it trivial to identify a relationship between an item in > a > > > library catalog and an item on Amazon.com. Here's what the Web > Services > > > currently contain that libraries are interested in: > > > > > > 1. Item Jacket Cover Images > > > 2. Item reviews by Amazon.com patrons > > > 3. Item ratings by Amazon.com patrons > > > 4. Professionaly written item descriptions and reviews > > > > > > Koha's Amazon module can interact with Amazon.com's web services > program > > > in several possible ways, in accordance with the license agreement[1] > that > > > every Web Services user must abide by: > > > > > > 1. Koha can be configured to periodically download content en masse > and > > > locally cache the content on one of your library services and > > > serve it to your users via the OPAC; > > > 2. Koha can download the content in real-time as an OPAC page is > loaded. > > > > > > The Web Services agreement has very specific requirements about usage > and > > > discusses both of these methods in great detail. The most relevant > points > > > to this discussion are: > > > > > > * if content is cached locally, it must be updated every 24 hours; > > > * if you download in real-time, you can only download up to 1000 > items > > > per IP address per day; > > > * if you download in real-time, you cannot download more than one > item per > > > second per IP address. > > > * if you use their content, you must provide a link back to _any_ > > > Amazon.com page > > > > > > Since Koha's system supports both cacheing and real-time downloads of > the > > > content, based on a library's usage patterns, they would need to > determine > > > which method or combination of methods would work best for their > situation. > > > Keep in mind that images are downloaded from the user's browser, not > from the > > > Koha application, so the 1000 queries per day per IP address and > 1/second rule > > > don't apply to the Koha server. > > > > > > If a library didn't want to cache data locally, yet had more than > 1000 > > > views of their detail pages, it would be very trivial to simply track > the > > > number of times that Amazon.com content was syndicated, and turn it > off > > > after the day's cap. It would be similarly trivial to keep track of > the > > > number of queries to detail pages per second and only permit one per > > > second; or to use javascript to download the content from the browser > > > rather than the server. It's not at all difficult to use Amazon's > program > > > without abusing it. And it's ultimately up to each library to make an > > > informed decision about whether and how to use it. > > > > > > So ... hope this qwells the fears somewhat. Feel free to ask for more > > > clarification. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > -- > > > Joshua Ferraro SUPPORT FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE > > > President, Technology migration, training, maintenance, support > > > LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS > > > jmf <at> liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS > > > > > > [1] Here's a link to the entire Web Services Agreement: > > > > http://www.amazon.com/AWS-License-home-page-Money/b/ref=sc_fe_c_2_3434651_2/105-6373537-4758038?ie=UTF8&node=3440661&no=3434651&me=A36L942TSJ2AJA > > > > > > This e-mail originates from the City of Ottawa e-mail system. Any > > > distribution, use or copying of this e-mail or the information it > > > contains by other than the intended recipient(s) is unauthorized. > > > If you are not the intended recipient, please notify me at the > > > telephone number shown above or by return e-mail and delete > > > this communication and any copy immediately. Thank you. > > > > > > Le présent courriel a été expédié par le système de courriels de > > > la Ville d'Ottawa. Toute distribution, utilisation ou > > > reproduction du courriel ou des renseignements qui s'y trouvent > > > par une personne autre que son destinataire prévu est interdite. > > > Si vous avez reçu le message par erreur, veuillez m'en aviser par > > > téléphone (au numéro précité) ou par courriel, puis supprimer > > > sans délai la version originale de la communication ainsi que > > > toutes ses copies. Je vous remercie de votre collaboration. > > > > > > > -- > Check out my library at http://www.librarything.com/profile/timspalding >
Mark Sandford | 20 Mar 15:13

Re: Use of Amazon.com Content in Koha's Catalog

There's an ongoing discussion of this over at the CODE4LIB listserv.
Google specifically states that their cover art and other metadata can
be used in libraries.  In fact, Ex Libris is integrating it into the
next Voyager release apparently.  (Some details here:
http://tinyurl.com/2zo2x9 )

As for where they get their art, it's probably from the publishers.  I
assume Amazon gets it from them too. I believe it was Tim Spalding who
pointed out, some time ago, that publishers WANT the cover art and
other metadata to be freely accessible.  It's not in their best
interest to restrict the kinds of uses we're generally talking about
here.

It's worthwhile to note that Amazon does not own (nor do they claim to
own afaik) copyright to the art.  Even if they scanned all the covers
themselves, they don't own it any more than we'd own content of
scanned books done in our library.  What they DO own is the bandwidth,
server space, etc, used to deliver the AWS content.  They do have a
legal right to limit or otherwise control that particular piece of the
content delivery network.  I'd liken it to a book you own.  You don't
own the copyright, but you're within you rights to dictate the terms
governing whether or not you'll let someone read your copy--"you can't
write it in, you can't read it in the bathroom, you can't tear out
pages..."  Or "you can borrow it if you have a library card, and pay
your fines, etc."

Say what you want about the business model, but it's not entirely
unreasonable to think that Amazon, as a retail operation, wouldn't
want to provide storage and bandwidth for our catalogs without getting
some kind of benefit in return.

--
Mark Sandford
Special Formats Cataloger
William Paterson University
(973)270-2437
sandfordm1 <at> wpunj.edu

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 7:43 PM, David Kane <dkane <at> wit.ie> wrote:

> The new Google Books api (which we use on our catalogue > http://witcat.wit.ie/ ) uses cover art. I wonder where G. Books gets their > art? Could that be used? > > David. >
Tim Spalding | 20 Mar 15:44

Re: Use of Amazon.com Content in Koha's Catalog

The tricky part is this:

"Driving traffic back to Amazon must be the primary purpose for all
applications using Amazon Associates Web Service."

It's both clear and wiggly. It's clear to me that Amazon encourages
authors to use AWS to link to their books on Amazon, but nobody would
say that the "primary purpose" of an author site was to drive traffic
to Amazon—far from it. Amazon's AWS newsletter has spotlighted many
sites that could not accurately be described as meeting these terms.

Anyway, it's strange that Amazon would be willing to lose traffic from
libraries—even if the traffic was not "primarily" to drive sales it
still certainly drives sales!—just as Google has opened itself to
them. In my opinion, Amazon's Web Services and Associates program have
central to Amazon's dominance of bookland online. They're losing that
edge now, bit-by-bit.

Tim

Eric Lease Morgan | 20 Mar 15:31
Picon

Re: Use of Amazon.com Content in Koha's Catalog


On Mar 20, 2008, at 10:13 AM, Mark Sandford wrote: > There's an ongoing discussion of this over at the CODE4LIB listserv. > Google specifically states that their cover art and other metadata can > be used in libraries....
Mark, thank you for sharing, and people here can read the cover art thread from a Code4Lib mailing list archive, here: http://serials.infomotions.com/code4lib/archive/2008/200803/ -- Eric Lease Morgan University Libraries of Notre Dame
Poulter, Dale | 22 Feb 22:09
Picon
Favicon

Re: Use of Amazon.com Content in Koha's Catalog

In many/most? cases if you provide a link back to Amazon with any content I believe you should be ok.  That
said, I am not a lawyer and do not play one on tv.

-----Original Message-----
From: Next generation catalogs for libraries [mailto:NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of GINTHER, Craig
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 12:01 PM
To: NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu
Subject: Re: [NGC4LIB] Use of Amazon.com Content in Koha's Catalog

Hello all, I was reviewing the message below in light of recent changes to Amazon Web Services (from ECS to
Amazon Associates) and see the following in the Terms of Use now, not sure if it was always there:

5.1.3. You are not permitted to use Amazon Associates Web Service with any Application or for any use that
does not have, as its principal purpose, driving traffic to the Amazon Website and driving sales of
products and services on the Amazon Website.

It seems to me that this may have some impact on use of Amazon for cover images in OPACs.  Thoughts on this?

-----Original Message-----
From: Next generation catalogs for libraries
[mailto:NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu]On Behalf Of Joshua Ferraro
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 9:27 PM
To: NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu
Subject: [NGC4LIB] Use of Amazon.com Content in Koha's Catalog

Hey gang,

Over the past few years, since I wrote the original Amazon.com module
for Koha, I've received literally hundreds of complaints, mostly from
librarians, about the legality of Koha's use of Amazon.com's Web
Services. In fact, it's fair to say I've spent considerably more time
responding to these questions than I did writing the original module.

So the bottom line is, I wasn't surprised that within minutes of my
response to Amy's NGC list, the Amazon questions started pouring in :-).
I've gotten a few dozen already, some of which are on-list. Rather than
repeat myself, I'll just make one public statement on the topic, that
covers the typical questions raised; so please don't be offended if I
don't reply individually to all of you. I'd be happy to field any
additional questions on the topic on-list.

So ... first of all, shocking as it may seem, Koha has the capability to
use Amazon.com content in the OPAC. To see this in action, feel free to
visit the Athens Public Library's OPAC:

http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us.

It's perfectly legal to use the content. In fact, Amazon.com expressly
created the web services program so that people would use it. Their
business angle is no different than any other content provider -- they
expect to make money. The difference is that they don't want to make the
money from the people using the content. Instead, they are hoping that
the content will drive users to their website and that those users will
purchase something.

If you have hesitations about this business model and don't think your
library should be involved in it, no problem, you can simply
turn it off in your Koha installation and purchase similar services from
other content providers with more traditional compensation methods.
No-one is going to try to force you to use Amazon.com :-). And for the
record, I'd be happy to have a philosophical discussion about the rights
and wrongs of using public money to purchase non-traditional (or traditional
for that matter ) content services that promote a specific online company
any time. :-)

However, if, like the libraries that LibLime supports, you are on a tight
budget, yet want to provide your patrons with this content, Amazon.com's
alternative service model gives you that ability. Here's how it works
and why it's legal.

Let me preface this by adding that I've had extensive conversations with
Amazon.com's US legal department about Koha's use of Web Services, and
they have confirmed that Koha does not violate the terms of their
agreement. This point is worth making: they _want_ your library to use
their content :-).

First off, a bit of background on Amazon.com's Web Services Program.
The basic idea is that Amazon provides machine-readable access to
content they have for sale. That content is indexed by ISBN number,
which makes it trivial to identify a relationship between an item in a
library catalog and an item on Amazon.com. Here's what the Web Services
currently contain that libraries are interested in:

1. Item Jacket Cover Images
2. Item reviews by Amazon.com patrons
3. Item ratings by Amazon.com patrons
4. Professionaly written item descriptions and reviews

Koha's Amazon module can interact with Amazon.com's web services program
in several possible ways, in accordance with the license agreement[1] that
every Web Services user must abide by:

1. Koha can be configured to periodically download content en masse and
        locally cache the content on one of your library services and
        serve it to your users via the OPAC;
2. Koha can download the content in real-time as an OPAC page is loaded.

The Web Services agreement has very specific requirements about usage and
discusses both of these methods in great detail. The most relevant points
to this discussion are:

  * if content is cached locally, it must be updated every 24 hours;
  * if you download in real-time, you can only download up to 1000 items
        per IP address per day;
  * if you download in real-time, you cannot download more than one item per
        second per IP address.
  * if you use their content, you must provide a link back to _any_
        Amazon.com page

Since Koha's system supports both cacheing and real-time downloads of the
content, based on a library's usage patterns, they would need to determine
which method or combination of methods would work best for their situation.
Keep in mind that images are downloaded from the user's browser, not from the
Koha application, so the 1000 queries per day per IP address and 1/second rule
don't apply to the Koha server.

If a library didn't want to cache data locally, yet had more than 1000
views of their detail pages, it would be very trivial to simply track the
number of times that Amazon.com content was syndicated, and turn it off
after the day's cap. It would be similarly trivial to keep track of the
number of queries to detail pages per second and only permit one per
second; or to use javascript to download the content from the browser
rather than the server. It's not at all difficult to use Amazon's program
without abusing it. And it's ultimately up to each library to make an
informed decision about whether and how to use it.

So ... hope this qwells the fears somewhat. Feel free to ask for more
clarification.

Cheers,

--
Joshua Ferraro                       SUPPORT FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE
President, Technology       migration, training, maintenance, support
LibLime                                Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS
jmf <at> liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS

[1] Here's a link to the entire Web Services Agreement:
http://www.amazon.com/AWS-License-home-page-Money/b/ref=sc_fe_c_2_3434651_2/105-6373537-4758038?ie=UTF8&node=3440661&no=3434651&me=A36L942TSJ2AJA

This e-mail originates from the City of Ottawa e-mail system. Any
distribution, use or copying of this e-mail or the information it
contains by other than the intended recipient(s) is unauthorized.
If you are not the intended recipient, please notify me at the
telephone number shown above or by return e-mail and delete
this communication and any copy immediately. Thank you.

Le présent courriel a été expédié par le système de courriels de
la Ville d'Ottawa. Toute distribution, utilisation ou
reproduction du courriel ou des renseignements qui s'y trouvent
par une personne autre que son destinataire prévu est interdite.
Si vous avez reçu le message par erreur, veuillez m'en aviser par
téléphone (au numéro précité) ou par courriel, puis supprimer
sans délai la version originale de la communication ainsi que
toutes ses copies. Je vous remercie de votre collaboration.

Tim Spalding | 22 Feb 22:39

Re: Use of Amazon.com Content in Koha's Catalog

There's no question the terms are both troubling and vague. No site
has as its primary purpose making money for Amazon except for Amazon.
And don't ask for clarification. We've tried with them and with
others. The whole point of vague terms of service is to give a company
maximum flexibility to do whatever they want.

That said, I think the risk is low. I could *easily* rattle off a
hundred commercial websites they'd go after before they went after a
*library*. And what would they do, even so? Sue a library? I doubt it.

Ultimately, the answer is for everyone to get together and provide for
free what Amazon provides for commercial gain. We hope to have an
announcement there very soon.

Tim

On 2/22/08, Poulter, Dale <dale.poulter <at> vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
> In many/most? cases if you provide a link back to Amazon with any content I believe you should be ok.  That
said, I am not a lawyer and do not play one on tv.
>
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Next generation catalogs for libraries [mailto:NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of GINTHER, Craig
>  Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 12:01 PM
>  To: NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu
>
> Subject: Re: [NGC4LIB] Use of Amazon.com Content in Koha's Catalog
>
>  Hello all, I was reviewing the message below in light of recent changes to Amazon Web Services (from ECS to
Amazon Associates) and see the following in the Terms of Use now, not sure if it was always there:
>
>  5.1.3. You are not permitted to use Amazon Associates Web Service with any Application or for any use that
does not have, as its principal purpose, driving traffic to the Amazon Website and driving sales of
products and services on the Amazon Website.
>
>  It seems to me that this may have some impact on use of Amazon for cover images in OPACs.  Thoughts on this?
>
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Next generation catalogs for libraries
>  [mailto:NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu]On Behalf Of Joshua Ferraro
>  Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 9:27 PM
>  To: NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu
>  Subject: [NGC4LIB] Use of Amazon.com Content in Koha's Catalog
>
>
>  Hey gang,
>
>  Over the past few years, since I wrote the original Amazon.com module
>  for Koha, I've received literally hundreds of complaints, mostly from
>  librarians, about the legality of Koha's use of Amazon.com's Web
>  Services. In fact, it's fair to say I've spent considerably more time
>  responding to these questions than I did writing the original module.
>
>  So the bottom line is, I wasn't surprised that within minutes of my
>  response to Amy's NGC list, the Amazon questions started pouring in :-).
>  I've gotten a few dozen already, some of which are on-list. Rather than
>  repeat myself, I'll just make one public statement on the topic, that
>  covers the typical questions raised; so please don't be offended if I
>  don't reply individually to all of you. I'd be happy to field any
>  additional questions on the topic on-list.
>
>  So ... first of all, shocking as it may seem, Koha has the capability to
>  use Amazon.com content in the OPAC. To see this in action, feel free to
>  visit the Athens Public Library's OPAC:
>
>  http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us.
>
>  It's perfectly legal to use the content. In fact, Amazon.com expressly
>  created the web services program so that people would use it. Their
>  business angle is no different than any other content provider -- they
>  expect to make money. The difference is that they don't want to make the
>  money from the people using the content. Instead, they are hoping that
>  the content will drive users to their website and that those users will
>  purchase something.
>
>  If you have hesitations about this business model and don't think your
>  library should be involved in it, no problem, you can simply
>  turn it off in your Koha installation and purchase similar services from
>  other content providers with more traditional compensation methods.
>  No-one is going to try to force you to use Amazon.com :-). And for the
>  record, I'd be happy to have a philosophical discussion about the rights
>  and wrongs of using public money to purchase non-traditional (or traditional
>  for that matter ) content services that promote a specific online company
>  any time. :-)
>
>  However, if, like the libraries that LibLime supports, you are on a tight
>  budget, yet want to provide your patrons with this content, Amazon.com's
>  alternative service model gives you that ability. Here's how it works
>  and why it's legal.
>
>  Let me preface this by adding that I've had extensive conversations with
>  Amazon.com's US legal department about Koha's use of Web Services, and
>  they have confirmed that Koha does not violate the terms of their
>  agreement. This point is worth making: they _want_ your library to use
>  their content :-).
>
>  First off, a bit of background on Amazon.com's Web Services Program.
>  The basic idea is that Amazon provides machine-readable access to
>  content they have for sale. That content is indexed by ISBN number,
>  which makes it trivial to identify a relationship between an item in a
>  library catalog and an item on Amazon.com. Here's what the Web Services
>  currently contain that libraries are interested in:
>
>  1. Item Jacket Cover Images
>  2. Item reviews by Amazon.com patrons
>  3. Item ratings by Amazon.com patrons
>  4. Professionaly written item descriptions and reviews
>
>  Koha's Amazon module can interact with Amazon.com's web services program
>  in several possible ways, in accordance with the license agreement[1] that
>  every Web Services user must abide by:
>
>  1. Koha can be configured to periodically download content en masse and
>         locally cache the content on one of your library services and
>         serve it to your users via the OPAC;
>  2. Koha can download the content in real-time as an OPAC page is loaded.
>
>  The Web Services agreement has very specific requirements about usage and
>  discusses both of these methods in great detail. The most relevant points
>  to this discussion are:
>
>   * if content is cached locally, it must be updated every 24 hours;
>   * if you download in real-time, you can only download up to 1000 items
>         per IP address per day;
>   * if you download in real-time, you cannot download more than one item per
>         second per IP address.
>   * if you use their content, you must provide a link back to _any_
>         Amazon.com page
>
>  Since Koha's system supports both cacheing and real-time downloads of the
>  content, based on a library's usage patterns, they would need to determine
>  which method or combination of methods would work best for their situation.
>  Keep in mind that images are downloaded from the user's browser, not from the
>  Koha application, so the 1000 queries per day per IP address and 1/second rule
>  don't apply to the Koha server.
>
>  If a library didn't want to cache data locally, yet had more than 1000
>  views of their detail pages, it would be very trivial to simply track the
>  number of times that Amazon.com content was syndicated, and turn it off
>  after the day's cap. It would be similarly trivial to keep track of the
>  number of queries to detail pages per second and only permit one per
>  second; or to use javascript to download the content from the browser
>  rather than the server. It's not at all difficult to use Amazon's program
>  without abusing it. And it's ultimately up to each library to make an
>  informed decision about whether and how to use it.
>
>  So ... hope this qwells the fears somewhat. Feel free to ask for more
>  clarification.
>
>  Cheers,
>
>  --
>  Joshua Ferraro                       SUPPORT FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE
>  President, Technology       migration, training, maintenance, support
>  LibLime                                Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS
>  jmf <at> liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
>
>  [1] Here's a link to the entire Web Services Agreement:
>  http://www.amazon.com/AWS-License-home-page-Money/b/ref=sc_fe_c_2_3434651_2/105-6373537-4758038?ie=UTF8&node=3440661&no=3434651&me=A36L942TSJ2AJA
>
>  This e-mail originates from the City of Ottawa e-mail system. Any
>  distribution, use or copying of this e-mail or the information it
>  contains by other than the intended recipient(s) is unauthorized.
>  If you are not the intended recipient, please notify me at the
>  telephone number shown above or by return e-mail and delete
>  this communication and any copy immediately. Thank you.
>
>  Le présent courriel a été expédié par le système de courriels de
>  la Ville d'Ottawa. Toute distribution, utilisation ou
>  reproduction du courriel ou des renseignements qui s'y trouvent
>  par une personne autre que son destinataire prévu est interdite.
>  Si vous avez reçu le message par erreur, veuillez m'en aviser par
>  téléphone (au numéro précité) ou par courriel, puis supprimer
>  sans délai la version originale de la communication ainsi que
>  toutes ses copies. Je vous remercie de votre collaboration.
>

--
Check out my library at http://www.librarything.com/profile/timspalding

McDonald, Stephen | 22 Feb 19:18
Picon

Re: Use of Amazon.com Content in Koha's Catalog

Craig Ginther said:

> I ... see the following in the Terms of Use now, > not sure if it was always there: > > 5.1.3. You are not permitted to use Amazon Associates Web > Service with any Application or for any use that does not > have, as its principal purpose, driving traffic to the Amazon > Website and driving sales of products and services on the > Amazon Website.
It was not always there. I remember hearing that it showed up in the Terms of Use several months ago. There was a brief discussion of the impact on the Autocat mailing list at the time. Steve McDonald Tufts University
Tim Spalding | 12 Dec 23:21

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?

Amazon licenses for free, but you have to link back to them wherever
you use their data. How many libraries want to become an Amazon sales
channel?

Tim

On 12/12/06, Casey Durfee <Casey.Durfee <at> spl.org> wrote:

> > > How are you doing the amazon content without violating their terms of > service? They limit you to 1 request/IP address/second and put strict > limits on how long you can cache their information for. You're not loading > the Amazon content on the client side with JSON or something, so the Koha > server is doing the requests for data from Amazon. How is Koha getting > around that limitation? > > --Casey > > >>> Joshua Ferraro jmf <at> liblime.com> 12/12/2006 12:28 PM >> > > > > *I want descriptions, dangit! And why does no software exist for > > integrating series information in the catalog?? I want to know what > the > > next book is! (nothing like clicking on something you think you know > what > > it is, and then it really isn't. I HATE that for something I might be > > interested in, I have to go to Amazon first to find anything) > So ... how about having Amazon.com descriptions in your catalog ... and > how about having them downloaded in real time as you pull up the record? > Amazon licenses this material for free under its Associates and > Developer programs. > > Here's what that looks like using Koha ZOOM's Amazon module: > > http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/bib/158735 > > Heck, why limit yourself to descriptions, take a look at the ratings and > reviews as well. And while you're at it, might as well click on the > image which takes you directly to the book itself so you can read it > online. >
Ryan Eby | 13 Dec 02:02
Picon

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?

Some would probably do it as an affiliate. I wouldn't be surprised as
some library systems force the software vendor's copyright or "powered
by" statements without even an option to turn it off. What's one more
link.

As for providing a covers web service for libraries, it is something
I've thrown around at people but I guess is just waiting for someone
to actually get off their ass and do it. There's quite a few simple
services I'd like see offered in a less restrictive manner. I'm glad
casey took up the records call.

Eby

On 12/12/06, Tim Spalding <tim <at> librarything.com> wrote:

> Amazon licenses for free, but you have to link back to them wherever > you use their data. How many libraries want to become an Amazon sales > channel? > > Tim >
Dobbs, Aaron | 13 Dec 02:12
Favicon

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?

If the link generates a commission check or funds usable for materials
purchasing - what library can afford to not explore the possibility?

-Aaron
:-)'

On 12/12/06, Tim Spalding <tim <at> librarything.com> wrote:

> Amazon licenses for free, but you have to link back to them wherever > you use their data. How many libraries want to become an Amazon sales > channel? > > Tim >
Jonathan Rochkind | 12 Dec 23:49
Favicon

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?

Somehow Koha seems to be using their data without linking back to them,
which I don't understand how they can get away with that either. Maybe
they are linking back to them, just so subtly I'm not noticing or
something.

Jonathan

Tim Spalding wrote:

> Amazon licenses for free, but you have to link back to them wherever > you use their data. How many libraries want to become an Amazon sales > channel? > > Tim > > On 12/12/06, Casey Durfee <Casey.Durfee <at> spl.org> wrote: >> >> >> How are you doing the amazon content without violating their terms of >> service? They limit you to 1 request/IP address/second and put strict >> limits on how long you can cache their information for. You're not >> loading >> the Amazon content on the client side with JSON or something, so the >> Koha >> server is doing the requests for data from Amazon. How is Koha getting >> around that limitation? >> >> --Casey >> >> >>> Joshua Ferraro jmf <at> liblime.com> 12/12/2006 12:28 PM >> >> >> >> > *I want descriptions, dangit! And why does no software exist for >> > integrating series information in the catalog?? I want to know >> what >> the >> > next book is! (nothing like clicking on something you think you >> know >> what >> > it is, and then it really isn't. I HATE that for something I >> might be >> > interested in, I have to go to Amazon first to find anything) >> So ... how about having Amazon.com descriptions in your catalog ... and >> how about having them downloaded in real time as you pull up the record? >> Amazon licenses this material for free under its Associates and >> Developer programs. >> >> Here's what that looks like using Koha ZOOM's Amazon module: >> >> http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/bib/158735 >> >> Heck, why limit yourself to descriptions, take a look at the ratings and >> reviews as well. And while you're at it, might as well click on the >> image which takes you directly to the book itself so you can read it >> online. >> >
-- Jonathan Rochkind Sr. Programmer/Analyst The Sheridan Libraries Johns Hopkins University 410.516.8886 rochkind (at) jhu.edu
Chris Cormack | 12 Dec 23:53
Picon

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?



On 12/13/06, Jonathan Rochkind <rochkind <at> jhu.edu> wrote:
Somehow Koha seems to be using their data without linking back to them,
which I don't understand how they can get away with that either. Maybe
they are linking back to them, just so subtly I'm not noticing or
something.


The book cover links back.

Chris


Tim Spalding | 13 Dec 01:11

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?

If the library world is looking for a simple open-source project,
setting up a big cover database would be tops on my list.

Amazon, Syndetics and so forth don't "own" the covers they provide.
They just did the work of getting them—99% from publishers—and since
they provide them, they can put them under a license if they want.*

All someone needs to do is set up a website, accept covers that come
in and particularly, make it easy to get feeds from publishers.
Publishers are eager to help. LibraryThing, for example, was granted
access to covers of all the Random House and much of Harper Collins,
without going to much trouble over it. Publishers want their data out
there, and are indeed annoyed that others resell what they made.

Anyone interested in doing this? Anyone interested in doing it with
LibraryThing? You provide the programming, we'll give it servers and
bandwidth...

Tim

*Amazon serves the files even if you've never agreed to anything, but
we'll leave that off. In my understanding, covers retain their
original (publisher) copyright but displaying them as a product shot
is always legal. (Taking the cover out of context and using it to make
some other work of art would not be.)

On 12/12/06, Chris Cormack <chris <at> bigballofwax.co.nz> wrote:

> > > On 12/13/06, Jonathan Rochkind <rochkind <at> jhu.edu> wrote: > > Somehow Koha seems to be using their data without linking back to them, > > which I don't understand how they can get away with that either. Maybe > > they are linking back to them, just so subtly I'm not noticing or > > something. > > > The book cover links back. > > Chris > > >
Chris Cormack | 13 Dec 01:59
Picon

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?



On 12/13/06, Tim Spalding <tim <at> librarything.com > wrote:
If the library world is looking for a simple open-source project,
setting up a big cover database would be tops on my list.

Amazon, Syndetics and so forth don't "own" the covers they provide.
They just did the work of getting them—99% from publishers—and since
they provide them, they can put them under a license if they want.*

All someone needs to do is set up a website, accept covers that come
in and particularly, make it easy to get feeds from publishers.
Publishers are eager to help. LibraryThing, for example, was granted
access to covers of all the Random House and much of Harper Collins,
without going to much trouble over it. Publishers want their data out
there, and are indeed annoyed that others resell what they made.

That sounds  like a great project to get content and put it under a
creative commons type license. With the buy in from the publishers of course.
And if we did it, such that it was general enough (the application that is not the content) such that it could be used by others for other purposes. It would perhaps be a useful Open Source project.

I reckon with ruby on rails something could be whacked up pretty fast to do what you describe. If I didnt have a 3 week old son and more work than you can shake a stick at. Id certainly volunteer. Its a great idea, open content is as least as important as open source.

Chris

Karen Coyle | 13 Dec 02:14

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?


Chris Cormack wrote: > That sounds like a great project to get content and put it under a > creative commons type license. With the buy in from the publishers of > course. > And if we did it, such that it was general enough (the application > that is not the content) such that it could be used by others for > other purposes. It would perhaps be a useful Open Source project. > >
Yes, great idea! So, what would be the best link between the library catalogs and the covers? Is the ISBN enough? If we don't have a paperback cover, could we link to the cover for the hardback? etc. I'm game to throw in my bib-metadata knowledge if needed. We would have to get the publishers to agree on a CC license, and we'd need to get the license image or link embedded in the cover image or linked to it in some way. OK, I'm jumping ahead myself now. Need to go take a few deep breaths. kc -- ----------------------------------- Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net http://www.kcoyle.net ph.: 510-540-7596 fx.: 510-848-3913 mo.: 510-435-8234 ------------------------------------
Lynn Reynish | 13 Dec 06:40
Picon

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?

Tim,

This does sound like a great project. However, I will note that ISBN is
probably not enough if you want to include CDs and DVDs - most of which
don't have ISBNs. Amazon uses an ASIN for these items but I'm not sure if
there are any widespread standard numbers in use for CDs or DVDs outside
of mainstream Western classical/pop/rock music (which often has a music
number). ISBNs have their own problems of course - but at least they exist
for a lot of items.

Lynn


> Chris Cormack wrote: >> That sounds like a great project to get content and put it under a >> creative commons type license. With the buy in from the publishers of >> course. >> And if we did it, such that it was general enough (the application >> that is not the content) such that it could be used by others for >> other purposes. It would perhaps be a useful Open Source project. >> >> > Yes, great idea! So, what would be the best link between the library > catalogs and the covers? Is the ISBN enough? If we don't have a > paperback cover, could we link to the cover for the hardback? etc. I'm > game to throw in my bib-metadata knowledge if needed. We would have to > get the publishers to agree on a CC license, and we'd need to get the > license image or link embedded in the cover image or linked to it in > some way. > > OK, I'm jumping ahead myself now. Need to go take a few deep breaths. > > kc > > -- > ----------------------------------- > Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant > kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net http://www.kcoyle.net > ph.: 510-540-7596 > fx.: 510-848-3913 > mo.: 510-435-8234 > ------------------------------------ >
-- Lynn Reynish ILS Librarian Regina Public Library lreynish <at> reginalibrary.ca
Anders Ringnér | 13 Dec 12:30
Picon

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?

From: "Lynn Reynish" <lreynish <at> RPL.REGINA.SK.CA>

> This does sound like a great project. However, I will note that ISBN is > probably not enough if you want to include CDs and DVDs - most of which > don't have ISBNs. Amazon uses an ASIN for these items but I'm not sure if > there are any widespread standard numbers in use for CDs or DVDs outside > of mainstream Western classical/pop/rock music (which often has a music > number). ISBNs have their own problems of course - but at least they exist > for a lot of items.
Would using the UPC/EAN-code be an alternative? If we then converted all ISBN-10 to ISBN-13, which in fact is identical to the EAN, we'd end up with the same style of numbers for all objects, regardless of format (book, CD, DVD and so on). All pictures would be stored by their EAN-code. /Anders
Lynn Reynish | 14 Dec 15:21
Picon

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?

Hmmmm.... UPC/EAN-code may indeed be an alternative. It would certainly
be no worse than an ISBN.

Lynn

Anders Ringnér wrote:

> From: "Lynn Reynish" <lreynish <at> RPL.REGINA.SK.CA> >> This does sound like a great project. However, I will note that ISBN is >> probably not enough if you want to include CDs and DVDs - most of which >> don't have ISBNs. Amazon uses an ASIN for these items but I'm not >> sure if >> there are any widespread standard numbers in use for CDs or DVDs outside >> of mainstream Western classical/pop/rock music (which often has a music >> number). ISBNs have their own problems of course - but at least they >> exist >> for a lot of items. > > Would using the UPC/EAN-code be an alternative? If we then converted all > ISBN-10 to ISBN-13, which in fact is identical to the EAN, we'd end up > with > the same style of numbers for all objects, regardless of format (book, > CD, > DVD and so on). All pictures would be stored by their EAN-code. > > /Anders
-- Lynn Reynish ILS Librarian Regina Public Library lreynish <at> reginalibrary.ca
Karen Coyle | 14 Dec 15:57

Re: Laundry list for NGC

Except for the ISBN, the UPC/EAN code isn't always stored in
bibliographic records created in the US. The numbers that are stored for
CDs are the publisher numbers ("Philips 422 416-2") and they are not
entered in a consistent format, unfortunately. UPC/EANs do seem to be
showing up on newer CD records. So getting a link to CDs is going to
take some thought. (I looked on Amazon, and CDs seem to be identified
only by the ASIN, which Amazon assigns when there isn't another reliable
identifier.)

I imagine that DVDs will be equally difficult.

kc

Lynn Reynish wrote:

> Hmmmm.... UPC/EAN-code may indeed be an alternative. It would certainly > be no worse than an ISBN. > > Lynn > > Anders Ringnér wrote: >> From: "Lynn Reynish" <lreynish <at> RPL.REGINA.SK.CA> >>> This does sound like a great project. However, I will note that ISBN is >>> probably not enough if you want to include CDs and DVDs - most of which >>> don't have ISBNs. Amazon uses an ASIN for these items but I'm not >>> sure if >>> there are any widespread standard numbers in use for CDs or DVDs >>> outside >>> of mainstream Western classical/pop/rock music (which often has a music >>> number). ISBNs have their own problems of course - but at least they >>> exist >>> for a lot of items. >> >> Would using the UPC/EAN-code be an alternative? If we then converted all >> ISBN-10 to ISBN-13, which in fact is identical to the EAN, we'd end up >> with >> the same style of numbers for all objects, regardless of format (book, >> CD, >> DVD and so on). All pictures would be stored by their EAN-code. >> >> /Anders > > -- > Lynn Reynish > ILS Librarian > Regina Public Library > lreynish <at> reginalibrary.ca > >
-- ----------------------------------- Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net http://www.kcoyle.net ph.: 510-540-7596 fx.: 510-848-3913 mo.: 510-435-8234 ------------------------------------
Diane I. Hillmann | 15 Dec 01:32
Picon
Favicon

Re: Laundry list for NGC

I think this exchange points up the fallacy that
we'll be able to specify an "ideal" identifier.
My suspicion is that instead we'll have to come
up with a multi-pronged approach whereby whatever
identifying numbers we have available are used,
and the identification systems themselves are
part of the deal and specified unambiguously.  So
I think we might stop searching for something
that is the all encompassing "standard" and
settle for a number with it's numbering system
identified. It's likely that we'll be dealing
with "de facto" standards for a long time to come.

Diane


>Except for the ISBN, the UPC/EAN code isn't always stored in >bibliographic records created in the US. The numbers that are stored for >CDs are the publisher numbers ("Philips 422 416-2") and they are not >entered in a consistent format, unfortunately. UPC/EANs do seem to be >showing up on newer CD records. So getting a link to CDs is going to >take some thought. (I looked on Amazon, and CDs seem to be identified >only by the ASIN, which Amazon assigns when there isn't another reliable >identifier.) > >I imagine that DVDs will be equally difficult. > >kc > >Lynn Reynish wrote: >>Hmmmm.... UPC/EAN-code may indeed be an alternative. It would certainly >>be no worse than an ISBN. >> >>Lynn >> >>Anders Ringnér wrote: >>>From: "Lynn Reynish" <lreynish <at> RPL.REGINA.SK.CA> >>>>This does sound like a great project. However, I will note that ISBN is >>>>probably not enough if you want to include CDs and DVDs - most of which >>>>don't have ISBNs. Amazon uses an ASIN for these items but I'm not >>>>sure if >>>>there are any widespread standard numbers in use for CDs or DVDs >>>>outside >>>>of mainstream Western classical/pop/rock music (which often has a music >>>>number). ISBNs have their own problems of course - but at least they >>>>exist >>>>for a lot of items. >>> >>>Would using the UPC/EAN-code be an alternative? If we then converted all >>>ISBN-10 to ISBN-13, which in fact is identical to the EAN, we'd end up >>>with >>>the same style of numbers for all objects, regardless of format (book, >>>CD, >>>DVD and so on). All pictures would be stored by their EAN-code. >>> >>>/Anders >> >>-- >>Lynn Reynish >>ILS Librarian >>Regina Public Library >>lreynish <at> reginalibrary.ca >> > >-- >----------------------------------- >Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant >kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net http://www.kcoyle.net >ph.: 510-540-7596 >fx.: 510-848-3913 >mo.: 510-435-8234 >------------------------------------
-- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Diane I. Hillmann Research Librarian Cornell University Library Email: dih1 <at> cornell.edu Voice: (607) 387-9207 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Rob Styles | 15 Dec 08:43

Re: Laundry list for NGC

This is the approach we're taking with our platform services - in this case the ability to attach arbitrary numbers to an image, so you could easily have several numbers as access points to the same image. Tied with an open bibliographic service you could get all jackets by a particular author or all jackets for a particular subject and so on.

rob


-----Original Message-----
From: Next generation catalogs for libraries on behalf of Diane I. Hillmann
Sent: Fri 15/12/2006 12:32 AM
To: NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu
Subject: Re: [NGC4LIB] Laundry list for NGC

I think this exchange points up the fallacy that
we'll be able to specify an "ideal" identifier.
My suspicion is that instead we'll have to come
up with a multi-pronged approach whereby whatever
identifying numbers we have available are used,
and the identification systems themselves are
part of the deal and specified unambiguously.  So
I think we might stop searching for something
that is the all encompassing "standard" and
settle for a number with it's numbering system
identified. It's likely that we'll be dealing
with "de facto" standards for a long time to come.

Diane

>Except for the ISBN, the UPC/EAN code isn't always stored in
>bibliographic records created in the US. The numbers that are stored for
>CDs are the publisher numbers ("Philips 422 416-2") and they are not
>entered in a consistent format, unfortunately. UPC/EANs do seem to be
>showing up on newer CD records. So getting a link to CDs is going to
>take some thought. (I looked on Amazon, and CDs seem to be identified
>only by the ASIN, which Amazon assigns when there isn't another reliable
>identifier.)
>
>I imagine that DVDs will be equally difficult.
>
>kc
>
>Lynn Reynish wrote:
>>Hmmmm.... UPC/EAN-code may indeed be an alternative. It would certainly
>>be no worse than an ISBN.
>>
>>Lynn
>>
>>Anders Ringnér wrote:
>>>From: "Lynn Reynish" <lreynish <at> RPL.REGINA.SK.CA>
>>>>This does sound like a great project. However, I will note that ISBN is
>>>>probably not enough if you want to include CDs and DVDs - most of which
>>>>don't have ISBNs. Amazon uses an ASIN for these items but I'm not
>>>>sure if
>>>>there are any widespread standard numbers in use for CDs or DVDs
>>>>outside
>>>>of mainstream Western classical/pop/rock music (which often has a music
>>>>number). ISBNs have their own problems of course - but at least they
>>>>exist
>>>>for a lot of items.
>>>
>>>Would using the UPC/EAN-code be an alternative? If we then converted all
>>>ISBN-10 to ISBN-13, which in fact is identical to the EAN, we'd end up
>>>with
>>>the same style of numbers for all objects, regardless of format (book,
>>>CD,
>>>DVD and so on). All pictures would be stored by their EAN-code.
>>>
>>>/Anders
>>
>>--
>>Lynn Reynish
>>ILS Librarian
>>Regina Public Library
>>lreynish <at> reginalibrary.ca
>>
>
>--
>-----------------------------------
>Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant
>kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net http://www.kcoyle.net
>ph.: 510-540-7596
>fx.: 510-848-3913
>mo.: 510-435-8234
>------------------------------------


--
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Diane I. Hillmann
Research Librarian
Cornell University Library
Email: dih1 <at> cornell.edu
Voice: (607) 387-9207
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

 

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K.G. Schneider | 15 Dec 07:25

Re: Laundry list for NGC

Yeah, even I think there is no such thing as the One True Identifier.
;-)

There could arguably be a preferred search order... sort of the way we
had rules in the military during war games: if building A is blown up,
go to building B; if building B is blown up, go to building C; and my
favorite directive: if building C is blown up, "use your initiative to
survive." It is a case where redundancy and a plurality of signifiers is
a Good Thing. (Lots Of Identifers Keep Stuff Findable?)

K.G. Schneider
kgs <at> bluehighways.com

On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 19:32:18 -0500, "Diane I. Hillmann"
<dih1 <at> CORNELL.EDU> said:

> I think this exchange points up the fallacy that > we'll be able to specify an "ideal" identifier. > My suspicion is that instead we'll have to come > up with a multi-pronged approach whereby whatever > identifying numbers we have available are used, > and the identification systems themselves are > part of the deal and specified unambiguously. So > I think we might stop searching for something > that is the all encompassing "standard" and > settle for a number with it's numbering system > identified. It's likely that we'll be dealing > with "de facto" standards for a long time to come. > > Diane > > >Except for the ISBN, the UPC/EAN code isn't always stored in > >bibliographic records created in the US. The numbers that are stored for > >CDs are the publisher numbers ("Philips 422 416-2") and they are not > >entered in a consistent format, unfortunately. UPC/EANs do seem to be > >showing up on newer CD records. So getting a link to CDs is going to > >take some thought. (I looked on Amazon, and CDs seem to be identified > >only by the ASIN, which Amazon assigns when there isn't another reliable > >identifier.) > > > >I imagine that DVDs will be equally difficult. > > > >kc > > > >Lynn Reynish wrote: > >>Hmmmm.... UPC/EAN-code may indeed be an alternative. It would certainly > >>be no worse than an ISBN. > >> > >>Lynn > >> > >>Anders Ringnér wrote: > >>>From: "Lynn Reynish" <lreynish <at> RPL.REGINA.SK.CA> > >>>>This does sound like a great project. However, I will note that ISBN is > >>>>probably not enough if you want to include CDs and DVDs - most of which > >>>>don't have ISBNs. Amazon uses an ASIN for these items but I'm not > >>>>sure if > >>>>there are any widespread standard numbers in use for CDs or DVDs > >>>>outside > >>>>of mainstream Western classical/pop/rock music (which often has a music > >>>>number). ISBNs have their own problems of course - but at least they > >>>>exist > >>>>for a lot of items. > >>> > >>>Would using the UPC/EAN-code be an alternative? If we then converted all > >>>ISBN-10 to ISBN-13, which in fact is identical to the EAN, we'd end up > >>>with > >>>the same style of numbers for all objects, regardless of format (book, > >>>CD, > >>>DVD and so on). All pictures would be stored by their EAN-code. > >>> > >>>/Anders > >> > >>-- > >>Lynn Reynish > >>ILS Librarian > >>Regina Public Library > >>lreynish <at> reginalibrary.ca > >> > > > >-- > >----------------------------------- > >Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant > >kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net http://www.kcoyle.net > >ph.: 510-540-7596 > >fx.: 510-848-3913 > >mo.: 510-435-8234 > >------------------------------------ > > > -- > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > Diane I. Hillmann > Research Librarian > Cornell University Library > Email: dih1 <at> cornell.edu > Voice: (607) 387-9207 > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Deborah Fritz | 15 Dec 14:46

Re: Laundry list for NGC

Don't forget to build in crosschecks
(title/publisher/date/edition/author/etc.) so that when the publisher
assigns the same ISBN, LCCN, etc. to a different manifestation, expression,
or even work, you can differentiate between the different 'things' (how's
that for a wonderfully technical encompassing term?)

Or does this not matter as much in the environment that you are discussing
as it does to ILL and retaining records when batchloading?

Deborah

------
Deborah Fritz
MARC Database Consultant
The MARC of Quality
www.marcofquality.com
Voice/Fax: (321) 676-1904


> On Friday, December 15, 2006 1:25 AM, K.G. Schneider said: > > There could arguably be a preferred search order... sort of > the way we had rules in the military during war games: if > building A is blown up, go to building B; if building B is > blown up, go to building C; and my favorite directive: if > building C is blown up, "use your initiative to survive." It > is a case where redundancy and a plurality of signifiers is a > Good Thing. (Lots Of Identifers Keep Stuff Findable?) > > K.G. Schneider > kgs <at> bluehighways.com > > On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 19:32:18 -0500, "Diane I. Hillmann" > <dih1 <at> CORNELL.EDU> said: > > I think this exchange points up the fallacy that we'll be able to > > specify an "ideal" identifier. > > My suspicion is that instead we'll have to come up with a > > multi-pronged approach whereby whatever identifying numbers we have > > available are used, and the identification systems > themselves are part > > of the deal and specified unambiguously. So I think we might stop > > searching for something that is the all encompassing "standard" and > > settle for a number with it's numbering system identified. > It's likely > > that we'll be dealing with "de facto" standards for a long time to > > come. > > > > Diane > >
Anders Ringnér | 14 Dec 16:45
Picon

SV: Re: [NGC4LIB] Laundry list for NGC

I agree with Karen. Concistency is of great importance.
Publisher numbers are problematic in that way.

I don't know how finicky OCLC are, but if they allow
records to be upgraded with EAN/UPC, that would be the best
solution. If not, one could, using a bar code scanner,
easily upgrade local records with EAN/UPC.

The most important point is that EAN/UPC will be exactly
the same as the ISBN from January 1st. Then we could use
the same identifier for (almost) all new media.

--- Karen Coyle <kcoyle <at> KCOYLE.NET> skrev:


> Except for the ISBN, the UPC/EAN code isn't always stored > in > bibliographic records created in the US. The numbers that > are stored for > CDs are the publisher numbers ("Philips 422 416-2") and > they are not > entered in a consistent format, unfortunately. UPC/EANs > do seem to be > showing up on newer CD records. So getting a link to CDs > is going to > take some thought. (I looked on Amazon, and CDs seem to > be identified > only by the ASIN, which Amazon assigns when there isn't > another reliable > identifier.) > > I imagine that DVDs will be equally difficult. > > kc > > Lynn Reynish wrote: > > Hmmmm.... UPC/EAN-code may indeed be an alternative. It > would certainly > > be no worse than an ISBN. > > > > Lynn > > > > Anders Ringnér wrote: > >> From: "Lynn Reynish" <lreynish <at> RPL.REGINA.SK.CA> > >>> This does sound like a great project. However, I will > note that ISBN is > >>> probably not enough if you want to include CDs and > DVDs - most of which > >>> don't have ISBNs. Amazon uses an ASIN for these items > but I'm not > >>> sure if > >>> there are any widespread standard numbers in use for > CDs or DVDs > >>> outside > >>> of mainstream Western classical/pop/rock music (which > often has a music > >>> number). ISBNs have their own problems of course - > but at least they > >>> exist > >>> for a lot of items. > >> > >> Would using the UPC/EAN-code be an alternative? If we > then converted all > >> ISBN-10 to ISBN-13, which in fact is identical to the > EAN, we'd end up > >> with > >> the same style of numbers for all objects, regardless > of format (book, > >> CD, > >> DVD and so on). All pictures would be stored by their > EAN-code. > >> > >> /Anders > > > > -- > > Lynn Reynish > > ILS Librarian > > Regina Public Library > > lreynish <at> reginalibrary.ca > > > > > > -- > ----------------------------------- > Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant > kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net http://www.kcoyle.net > ph.: 510-540-7596 > fx.: 510-848-3913 > mo.: 510-435-8234 > ------------------------------------ >
_________________________________________________________ Flyger tiden iväg? Fånga dagen med Yahoo! Mails inbyggda kalender. Dessutom 250 MB gratis, virusscanning och antispam. Få den på: http://se.mail.yahoo.com
Tim Spalding | 14 Dec 16:55

Re: Laundry list for NGC

Well, EAN/UPCs are already the same as ISBNs on a mathematical
level—you can transform in either direction without loss.

Does anyone know the rules about EAN/UPC changes? The problem with
ISBNs is that you don't need to change the ISBN when you change the
cover. It's about the inside of the book. So you get one ISBN with 2
or more covers. How does it work with video and DVDs?

On 12/14/06, Anders Ringnér <ringner <at> yahoo.se> wrote:

> I agree with Karen. Concistency is of great importance. > Publisher numbers are problematic in that way. > > I don't know how finicky OCLC are, but if they allow > records to be upgraded with EAN/UPC, that would be the best > solution. If not, one could, using a bar code scanner, > easily upgrade local records with EAN/UPC. > > The most important point is that EAN/UPC will be exactly > the same as the ISBN from January 1st. Then we could use > the same identifier for (almost) all new media. > > --- Karen Coyle <kcoyle <at> KCOYLE.NET> skrev: > > > Except for the ISBN, the UPC/EAN code isn't always stored > > in > > bibliographic records created in the US. The numbers that > > are stored for > > CDs are the publisher numbers ("Philips 422 416-2") and > > they are not > > entered in a consistent format, unfortunately. UPC/EANs > > do seem to be > > showing up on newer CD records. So getting a link to CDs > > is going to > > take some thought. (I looked on Amazon, and CDs seem to > > be identified > > only by the ASIN, which Amazon assigns when there isn't > > another reliable > > identifier.) > > > > I imagine that DVDs will be equally difficult. > > > > kc > > > > Lynn Reynish wrote: > > > Hmmmm.... UPC/EAN-code may indeed be an alternative. It > > would certainly > > > be no worse than an ISBN. > > > > > > Lynn > > > > > > Anders Ringnér wrote: > > >> From: "Lynn Reynish" <lreynish <at> RPL.REGINA.SK.CA> > > >>> This does sound like a great project. However, I will > > note that ISBN is > > >>> probably not enough if you want to include CDs and > > DVDs - most of which > > >>> don't have ISBNs. Amazon uses an ASIN for these items > > but I'm not > > >>> sure if > > >>> there are any widespread standard numbers in use for > > CDs or DVDs > > >>> outside > > >>> of mainstream Western classical/pop/rock music (which > > often has a music > > >>> number). ISBNs have their own problems of course - > > but at least they > > >>> exist > > >>> for a lot of items. > > >> > > >> Would using the UPC/EAN-code be an alternative? If we > > then converted all > > >> ISBN-10 to ISBN-13, which in fact is identical to the > > EAN, we'd end up > > >> with > > >> the same style of numbers for all objects, regardless > > of format (book, > > >> CD, > > >> DVD and so on). All pictures would be stored by their > > EAN-code. > > >> > > >> /Anders > > > > > > -- > > > Lynn Reynish > > > ILS Librarian > > > Regina Public Library > > > lreynish <at> reginalibrary.ca > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ----------------------------------- > > Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant > > kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net http://www.kcoyle.net > > ph.: 510-540-7596 > > fx.: 510-848-3913 > > mo.: 510-435-8234 > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Flyger tiden iväg? Fånga dagen med Yahoo! Mails inbyggda > kalender. Dessutom 250 MB gratis, virusscanning och antispam. Få den på: http://se.mail.yahoo.com >
Tim Spalding | 14 Dec 16:41

Re: Laundry list for NGC

I think CDs and DVDs might be biting off too much. So long as there's
no deep problem with adding them later, what's lost if we start with
books? What's new and interesting here is the idea of community
participation and open data. Karen's post—new info to me,
thanks!—shows there might be problems matching CD and DVD covers to
library data. Can't we explore what's new with books alone?

Tim

On 12/14/06, Karen Coyle <kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net> wrote:

> Except for the ISBN, the UPC/EAN code isn't always stored in > bibliographic records created in the US. The numbers that are stored for > CDs are the publisher numbers ("Philips 422 416-2") and they are not > entered in a consistent format, unfortunately. UPC/EANs do seem to be > showing up on newer CD records. So getting a link to CDs is going to > take some thought. (I looked on Amazon, and CDs seem to be identified > only by the ASIN, which Amazon assigns when there isn't another reliable > identifier.) > > I imagine that DVDs will be equally difficult. > > kc > > Lynn Reynish wrote: > > Hmmmm.... UPC/EAN-code may indeed be an alternative. It would certainly > > be no worse than an ISBN. > > > > Lynn > > > > Anders Ringnér wrote: > >> From: "Lynn Reynish" <lreynish <at> RPL.REGINA.SK.CA> > >>> This does sound like a great project. However, I will note that ISBN is > >>> probably not enough if you want to include CDs and DVDs - most of which > >>> don't have ISBNs. Amazon uses an ASIN for these items but I'm not > >>> sure if > >>> there are any widespread standard numbers in use for CDs or DVDs > >>> outside > >>> of mainstream Western classical/pop/rock music (which often has a music > >>> number). ISBNs have their own problems of course - but at least they > >>> exist > >>> for a lot of items. > >> > >> Would using the UPC/EAN-code be an alternative? If we then converted all > >> ISBN-10 to ISBN-13, which in fact is identical to the EAN, we'd end up > >> with > >> the same style of numbers for all objects, regardless of format (book, > >> CD, > >> DVD and so on). All pictures would be stored by their EAN-code. > >> > >> /Anders > > > > -- > > Lynn Reynish > > ILS Librarian > > Regina Public Library > > lreynish <at> reginalibrary.ca > > > > > > -- > ----------------------------------- > Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant > kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net http://www.kcoyle.net > ph.: 510-540-7596 > fx.: 510-848-3913 > mo.: 510-435-8234 > ------------------------------------ >
Dobbs, Aaron | 14 Dec 23:13
Favicon

Re: Laundry list for NGC

Tis better to do what needs to be done and ask for forgiveness later than to ask permission and not get 'r dun.

(The first part is from Admiral Grace Hopper, the last part is a paraphrase because I don't remember how she
said it to my graduating HS class several decades ago)

-Aaron
:-)'

PS Go, Tim, Go!

-----Original Message-----
From: Next generation catalogs for libraries [mailto:NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Tim Spalding
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 10:41 AM
To: NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu
Subject: Re: [NGC4LIB] Laundry list for NGC

I think CDs and DVDs might be biting off too much. So long as there's no deep problem with adding them later,
what's lost if we start with books? What's new and interesting here is the idea of community participation
and open data. Karen's post-new info to me, thanks!-shows there might be problems matching CD and DVD
covers to library data. Can't we explore what's new with books alone?

Tim

On 12/14/06, Karen Coyle <kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net> wrote:

> Except for the ISBN, the UPC/EAN code isn't always stored in > bibliographic records created in the US. The numbers that are stored > for CDs are the publisher numbers ("Philips 422 416-2") and they are > not entered in a consistent format, unfortunately. UPC/EANs do seem to > be showing up on newer CD records. So getting a link to CDs is going > to take some thought. (I looked on Amazon, and CDs seem to be > identified only by the ASIN, which Amazon assigns when there isn't > another reliable > identifier.) > > I imagine that DVDs will be equally difficult. > > kc > > Lynn Reynish wrote: > > Hmmmm.... UPC/EAN-code may indeed be an alternative. It would > > certainly be no worse than an ISBN. > > > > Lynn > > > > Anders Ringnér wrote: > >> From: "Lynn Reynish" <lreynish <at> RPL.REGINA.SK.CA> > >>> This does sound like a great project. However, I will note that > >>> ISBN is probably not enough if you want to include CDs and DVDs - > >>> most of which don't have ISBNs. Amazon uses an ASIN for these > >>> items but I'm not sure if there are any widespread standard > >>> numbers in use for CDs or DVDs outside of mainstream Western > >>> classical/pop/rock music (which often has a music number). ISBNs > >>> have their own problems of course - but at least they exist for a > >>> lot of items. > >> > >> Would using the UPC/EAN-code be an alternative? If we then > >> converted all ISBN-10 to ISBN-13, which in fact is identical to the > >> EAN, we'd end up with the same style of numbers for all objects, > >> regardless of format (book, CD, DVD and so on). All pictures would > >> be stored by their EAN-code. > >> > >> /Anders > > > > -- > > Lynn Reynish > > ILS Librarian > > Regina Public Library > > lreynish <at> reginalibrary.ca > > > > > > -- > ----------------------------------- > Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net > http://www.kcoyle.net > ph.: 510-540-7596 > fx.: 510-848-3913 > mo.: 510-435-8234 > ------------------------------------ >
Paul Miller | 14 Dec 16:54

Re: Laundry list for NGC

Agreed.  An open pool of cover data is a big enough - and important enough -
job to be going on with.

Let's not bite off more than we can chew... But keep an open mind about
cracking the CD/DVD identification issues down the line and adding them in
then.  There *are* various IS*N codes that would apply to these media... but
none are so widely deployed (yet) as the ISBN.

On 14/12/06 15:41, Tim Spalding wrote:


> I think CDs and DVDs might be biting off too much. So long as there's > no deep problem with adding them later, what's lost if we start with > books? What's new and interesting here is the idea of community > participation and open data. Karen's post<new info to me, > thanks!<shows there might be problems matching CD and DVD covers to > library data. Can't we explore what's new with books alone? > > Tim > > On 12/14/06, Karen Coyle <kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net> wrote: >> Except for the ISBN, the UPC/EAN code isn't always stored in >> bibliographic records created in the US. The numbers that are stored for >> CDs are the publisher numbers ("Philips 422 416-2") and they are not >> entered in a consistent format, unfortunately. UPC/EANs do seem to be >> showing up on newer CD records. So getting a link to CDs is going to >> take some thought. (I looked on Amazon, and CDs seem to be identified >> only by the ASIN, which Amazon assigns when there isn't another reliable >> identifier.) >> >> I imagine that DVDs will be equally difficult. >> >> kc >> >> Lynn Reynish wrote: >>> Hmmmm.... UPC/EAN-code may indeed be an alternative. It would certainly >>> be no worse than an ISBN. >>> >>> Lynn >>> >>> Anders Ringnér wrote: >>>> From: "Lynn Reynish" <lreynish <at> RPL.REGINA.SK.CA> >>>>> This does sound like a great project. However, I will note that ISBN is >>>>> probably not enough if you want to include CDs and DVDs - most of which >>>>> don't have ISBNs. Amazon uses an ASIN for these items but I'm not >>>>> sure if >>>>> there are any widespread standard numbers in use for CDs or DVDs >>>>> outside >>>>> of mainstream Western classical/pop/rock music (which often has a music >>>>> number). ISBNs have their own problems of course - but at least they >>>>> exist >>>>> for a lot of items. >>>> >>>> Would using the UPC/EAN-code be an alternative? If we then converted all >>>> ISBN-10 to ISBN-13, which in fact is identical to the EAN, we'd end up >>>> with >>>> the same style of numbers for all objects, regardless of format (book, >>>> CD, >>>> DVD and so on). All pictures would be stored by their EAN-code. >>>> >>>> /Anders >>> >>> -- >>> Lynn Reynish >>> ILS Librarian >>> Regina Public Library >>> lreynish <at> reginalibrary.ca >>> >>> >> >> -- >> ----------------------------------- >> Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant >> kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net http://www.kcoyle.net >> ph.: 510-540-7596 >> fx.: 510-848-3913 >> mo.: 510-435-8234 >> ------------------------------------ >>
-- Dr Paul Miller Senior Manager & Technology Evangelist, Talis w: www.talis.com/ m: +44 (7769) 740083 im: talis_paul <at> mac.com [AIM, MSN and iChat] skype: napm1971 -- The very latest from Talis read the latest news at www.talis.com/news listen to our podcasts www.talis.com/podcasts see us at these events www.talis.com/events join the discussion here www.talis.com/forums join our developer community www.talis.com/tdn and read our blogs www.talis.com/blogs Any views or personal opinions expressed within this email may not be those of Talis Information Ltd. The content of this email message and any files that may be attached are confidential, and for the usage of the intended recipient only. If you are not the intended recipient, then please return this message to the sender and delete it. Any use of this e-mail by an unauthorised recipient is prohibited.
Tim Spalding | 13 Dec 03:12

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?

Karen (et al.),

So, I'm hasty. Let's do it. I really want to help and indeed for
LibraryThing to take the lead on this—with everything being fully
downloadable and open source, of course, so LibraryThing doesn't have
any real power over it. I whacked together the first LibraryThing in a
month. This is a weekend job, I think.

Caveat: The very real beauty of Ruby notwithstanding, I'm not going to
help unless it's in PHP. (I'm limited, and PHP is the most widely
shared hacker language.)

Some initial thoughts/responses:

1. Code should be CC.
2. There's a lot of PHP code from LibraryThing we'd be glad to release
in the CC. Image downsampling, ISBN checking, etc.
3. Covers can't actually be CC. In my understanding, covers retain
their copyright, it's just that showing them in our contexts is
automatic fair use. If every bookstore needed to get permission to
show a book cover—or a poster or etc.—in an advertisement, chaos would
ensue! That's how covers work. But you can't take a piece of a cover
and use it for some other purpose. For starters, many covers show
copyrighted, permissioned art.
4. The data should be freely available for putting on other servers,
but if LibraryThing hosts the first copy, we obviously reserve the
right not to provide ten terabytes/day to one IP. We just paid for
another tube, though, so we've got bandwidth to spare. It's not like
we're talking video here.
5. I'd love to hear what you think, but I propose going as minimal as
possible with the bibliographic data. The primary access should be by
a URL, e.g., http://www.coverthing.com/small/006076550X (yes, I just
bought that domain, and bookdatathing.com for good measure <grin>).
That would return either a cover or a 1x1 transparent pixel, just like
Amazon. Consequently, if there's an ISBN, it should be by ISBN (10 and
13 handled equally). If not, I think it's by LCCN, if there is one. If
not, we can come up with a unique key and provide a way to search for
it, but its unlikely to be found.
6. Starter interface is a simple form—as simple as possible. ISBN,
type (cover is default) and the upload itself. It should be easy as
pie to upload images. There are, for example, thousands of Amazon
users who gave Amazon their "customer images" just because it felt
good—many have given hundreds of them. And LibraryThing is
*constantly* sent cover art by authors, who don't know that we can't
used it.
7. I propose we adopt some standard sizes. They would be downsampled
from what you start from, which would always be retained.
8. I'd also like to push for some optional variants, like (a) cover
image (b) back cover (c) spine image (d) other user image.
LibraryThing users want spines, I know.
9. I can contribute a mess of data. In theory, LibraryThing can
contribute its 230,213 (!!) user-provided covers. (I need to read up
more on some legal issues involved before I stake the company on it.)
And, although I'd like to check with the publishers just to make sure,
we can contribute the ONIX feed covers too. (I don't know the number,
but it's big, albeit focused on two publishers).

Okay, breathe, breathe.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Karen Coyle <kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net>
Date: Dec 12, 2006 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?
To: NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu

Chris Cormack wrote:

> That sounds like a great project to get content and put it under a > creative commons type license. With the buy in from the publishers of > course. > And if we did it, such that it was general enough (the application > that is not the content) such that it could be used by others for > other purposes. It would perhaps be a useful Open Source project. > >
Yes, great idea! So, what would be the best link between the library catalogs and the covers? Is the ISBN enough? If we don't have a paperback cover, could we link to the cover for the hardback? etc. I'm game to throw in my bib-metadata knowledge if needed. We would have to get the publishers to agree on a CC license, and we'd need to get the license image or link embedded in the cover image or linked to it in some way. OK, I'm jumping ahead myself now. Need to go take a few deep breaths. kc -- ----------------------------------- Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net http://www.kcoyle.net ph.: 510-540-7596 fx.: 510-848-3913 mo.: 510-435-8234 ------------------------------------
Jonathan Rochkind | 13 Dec 20:27
Favicon

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?

Wait a second, if you already have all those covers in LibraryThing
(200k?!).... and you are willing to host the diskspace/bandwidth...
maybe LibraryThing already _is_ the service we want?

What if you just provided a "provide an isbn, get some URLs to book
covers" web service into the LibraryThing database?  If people want to
add book covers, they can do it via the existing LibraryThing interface.
It wouldn't give you the spines and the other advanced features, but
it'd be a pretty good start.

Don't get me wrong, the overall service you suggest would be BETTER (not
least becuase we really could use an independent cooperative service
that is NOT part of LibraryThing or any other commercial service, and I
really appreciate you offering to provide the infrastructure for such),
and really not THAT much work. But it still hasn't got done yet.  An API
"give an ISBN, get a book cover" into LibraryThing would be a lot better
than nothing. Am I missing something?

--Jonathan

Tim Spalding wrote:

> Karen (et al.), > > So, I'm hasty. Let's do it. I really want to help and indeed for > LibraryThing to take the lead on this—with everything being fully > downloadable and open source, of course, so LibraryThing doesn't have > any real power over it. I whacked together the first LibraryThing in a > month. This is a weekend job, I think. > > Caveat: The very real beauty of Ruby notwithstanding, I'm not going to > help unless it's in PHP. (I'm limited, and PHP is the most widely > shared hacker language.) > > Some initial thoughts/responses: > > 1. Code should be CC. > 2. There's a lot of PHP code from LibraryThing we'd be glad to release > in the CC. Image downsampling, ISBN checking, etc. > 3. Covers can't actually be CC. In my understanding, covers retain > their copyright, it's just that showing them in our contexts is > automatic fair use. If every bookstore needed to get permission to > show a book cover—or a poster or etc.—in an advertisement, chaos would > ensue! That's how covers work. But you can't take a piece of a cover > and use it for some other purpose. For starters, many covers show > copyrighted, permissioned art. > 4. The data should be freely available for putting on other servers, > but if LibraryThing hosts the first copy, we obviously reserve the > right not to provide ten terabytes/day to one IP. We just paid for > another tube, though, so we've got bandwidth to spare. It's not like > we're talking video here. > 5. I'd love to hear what you think, but I propose going as minimal as > possible with the bibliographic data. The primary access should be by > a URL, e.g., http://www.coverthing.com/small/006076550X (yes, I just > bought that domain, and bookdatathing.com for good measure <grin>). > That would return either a cover or a 1x1 transparent pixel, just like > Amazon. Consequently, if there's an ISBN, it should be by ISBN (10 and > 13 handled equally). If not, I think it's by LCCN, if there is one. If > not, we can come up with a unique key and provide a way to search for > it, but its unlikely to be found. > 6. Starter interface is a simple form—as simple as possible. ISBN, > type (cover is default) and the upload itself. It should be easy as > pie to upload images. There are, for example, thousands of Amazon > users who gave Amazon their "customer images" just because it felt > good—many have given hundreds of them. And LibraryThing is > *constantly* sent cover art by authors, who don't know that we can't > used it. > 7. I propose we adopt some standard sizes. They would be downsampled > from what you start from, which would always be retained. > 8. I'd also like to push for some optional variants, like (a) cover > image (b) back cover (c) spine image (d) other user image. > LibraryThing users want spines, I know. > 9. I can contribute a mess of data. In theory, LibraryThing can > contribute its 230,213 (!!) user-provided covers. (I need to read up > more on some legal issues involved before I stake the company on it.) > And, although I'd like to check with the publishers just to make sure, > we can contribute the ONIX feed covers too. (I don't know the number, > but it's big, albeit focused on two publishers). > > Okay, breathe, breathe. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Karen Coyle <kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net> > Date: Dec 12, 2006 8:14 PM > Subject: Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure > up? > To: NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu > > Chris Cormack wrote: >> That sounds like a great project to get content and put it under a >> creative commons type license. With the buy in from the publishers of >> course. >> And if we did it, such that it was general enough (the application >> that is not the content) such that it could be used by others for >> other purposes. It would perhaps be a useful Open Source project. >> >> > Yes, great idea! So, what would be the best link between the library > catalogs and the covers? Is the ISBN enough? If we don't have a > paperback cover, could we link to the cover for the hardback? etc. I'm > game to throw in my bib-metadata knowledge if needed. We would have to > get the publishers to agree on a CC license, and we'd need to get the > license image or link embedded in the cover image or linked to it in > some way. > > OK, I'm jumping ahead myself now. Need to go take a few deep breaths. > > kc > > -- > ----------------------------------- > Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant > kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net http://www.kcoyle.net > ph.: 510-540-7596 > fx.: 510-848-3913 > mo.: 510-435-8234 > ------------------------------------ >
-- Jonathan Rochkind Sr. Programmer/Analyst The Sheridan Libraries Johns Hopkins University 410.516.8886 rochkind (at) jhu.edu
Dan Mullineux | 13 Dec 01:44

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?

Not in the list view at Nelsonville. In the detailed view it links to amazons search inside url (even when they dont exist), is that right?
 
Otherwise great work!
 
Dan.

From: Next generation catalogs for libraries [mailto:NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Cormack
Sent: 12 December 2006 22:54
To: NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu
Subject: Re: [NGC4LIB] Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?



On 12/13/06, Jonathan Rochkind <rochkind <at> jhu.edu> wrote:
Somehow Koha seems to be using their data without linking back to them,
which I don't understand how they can get away with that either. Maybe
they are linking back to them, just so subtly I'm not noticing or
something.


The book cover links back.

Chris


 

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Joshua Ferraro | 13 Dec 04:14
Favicon

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?


On Wed, Dec 13, 2006 at 12:44:00AM -0000, Dan Mullineux wrote: > Not in the list view at Nelsonville. In the detailed view it links to > amazons search inside url (even when they dont exist), is that right?
My oh my ... you're right! I hadn't thought about that before. Well ... since you pointed it out, I went ahead and added a few lines to the module ... now it checks to make sure the reader page is available before loading that link and directing the user to that page ... Thanks for the feedback, and keep it coming :-). Cheers, -- Joshua Ferraro SUPPORT FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE President, Technology migration, training, maintenance, support LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS jmf <at> liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
Chris Cormack | 12 Dec 23:37
Picon

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post) -- How does Koha measure up?



On 12/13/06, Tim Spalding <tim <at> librarything.com> wrote:
Amazon licenses for free, but you have to link back to them wherever
you use their data. How many libraries want to become an Amazon sales
channel?

Thats the beautiful thing with Open Source and Koha in particular, if you dont want to use the feature, go into the system preferences and turn it off. Voila :)

Having said that, plenty of libraries seem to be just fine with it. I figure, let them choose.

Chris


Rob Styles | 12 Dec 18:47

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post)

Gail,

I agree that Amy's list is a great contribution to this discussion. I wanted to pick up on one line in your
mail, though.


> I think it would be great if I could just go to one giant libary site, > search and discover, then finally link to my local library where I can > place a hold and pick it up.
Here at Talis we have a service called Source (http://www.talis.com/source/blog/) for ILL Librarians that is free to contribute to and free to discover holdings on. The platform services that power this are also powering the freely available Cenote (http://cenote.talis.com/). Cenote links through to libraries wherever we have the information to and we've based that on an open directory that anyone can use and help maintain (http://directory.talis.com/ui/). These things aren't just possible; there are some folks here who want to help you do it. Source is a UK service, but given today's technologies, the web and other advancements there is absolutely no reason you shouldn't get what you want globally. We just have to change the way we think about this stuff; open up, stop pretending we can "own" the data that everyone needs to share and, above all, build on a cost model more like the one Google started with. rob Rob Styles Technical Lead, Talis tel: +44 (0)870 400 5000 fax: +44 (0)870 400 5001 direct: +44 (0)870 400 5004 mobile: +44 (0)7971 475 257 msn: mmmmmrob <at> yahoo.com irc: irc.freenode.net/mmmmmrob,isnick ________________________________________ From: Next generation catalogs for libraries [mailto:NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Gail Richardson Sent: 12 December 2006 17:10 To: NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu Subject: Re: [NGC4LIB] Laundry list for NGC (long post) Thank you for your awesome list. I think it is safe to say that this is what we all want - as users, and *for* our users. And it should all be possible, shouldn't it? Whether we will ever find all of this, or even most of it, through a vendor product, I don't know. I don't suspect so. So how can we do this for ourselves, do it right, and be consistent? I hate that each library does whatever slightly differently. I think it would be great if I could just go to one giant libary site, search and discover, then finally link to my local library where I can place a hold and pick it up. I'm circulating this list to our staff - and putting it under the organizational Christmas Tree. Cheers - Gail Gail Richardson - Ext. 5062 E-Services Coordinator Oakville Public Library 120 Navy Street (corner of Lakeshore Road and Navy Street) Oakville, Ontario L6J 2Z4 Telephone: 905-815-2042 Fax: 905-815-2024 Amy Ostrom <amostrom <at> GMAIL.COM> Sent by: Next generation catalogs for libraries <NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu> 12/12/2006 11:00 AM Please respond to Next generation catalogs for libraries <NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu> To NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu cc Subject [NGC4LIB] Laundry list for NGC (long post) Dear NGC4Libbers: I have not been able to keep up with all the posts, but it seems no one will just create a substantial list - too much theory and questioning/doubt behind everything. I don't know about anyone else, but I am myself an end user, and I have a LOT of things I would love to see. I don't care if it is done in collaboration with Amazon, or Worldcat, or any organization, but this is what I want. I hope this proves beneficial. (Apologies in advance for a long post.) *I want it all in one place with option to see more or less (if it's on a booklist let me know, if it has reviews let me see them, put it all in the same place; if the library has it in audio and book format, put it in the same record!, seriously, if one type isn't in, I'll take another format - I don't want to click on 15 records just to find something; I also want to be able to hide some stuff if it is too cluttered) *I want descriptions, dangit! And why does no software exist for integrating series information in the catalog?? I want to know what the next book is! (nothing like clicking on something you think you know what it is, and then it really isn't. I HATE that for something I might be interested in, I have to go to Amazon first to find anything) *I want to see related/similar materials (I want a smarter version of http://www.literature-map.com/, either to graphically display the closeness of the book/author, or to at least list what others think are close) *I want to make wishlists and my own booklists (heck, if I read an awesome series, I want to let others see these books if they share similar tastes; also I may not have time to read right now, but doesn't mean I want to forget a book I found that might be worth reading later) *I want pictures! (I am visual, I'll know it's the right book if I can see it first; I want to see a sample of of the content as well, but would settle for a description) *I want suggested searches and ways to narrow or broaden the search I made (if I can't remember the name or misspell it, I want it to act like Amazon and pull up suggested spellings or related searches, also broken down by category) *I want the search to pull up the RIGHT materials (rank by popularity would work better than what item was last cataloged; Amazon is very good with its algorithm, it's not that hard to replicate - we can record how many times a record was viewed and how many times it was checked out, we know its publication date, we know its format, why can't we organize the search better?) *I want an RSS feed for new items based on a search query (heck yeah I want to know what just came in without going to the catalog every day so I can get my hold on it ASAP, but I don't want to know EVERY item that is purchased, only what I am looking for; great for current awareness as well) *I want to see the newly available items, especially in DVDs, CDs, and games (not just an RSS feed out, but actually on the site!) *I want to know how long the wait list is, in days and or queue location (if it's too long, I'll just go buy the item) *I want permalinks, so I can link to a book from my blog to the catalog instead of to amazon or remember easily how to get back to it without running the search again (I am all about promoting the library, but Amazon is better than the library could ever be with marketing and promoting, let's take their example!) *It would be awesome to create my custom display, so I see what I want in the color I like (okay, it's a stretch, but it's all about customizing and personalizing these days) *I want a map to show me the general shelf I might find my item (so many times an item was pulled out of the general collection and I pull my hair out in frustration) *I want a library where I only have to sign in once, ONCE! (in my library catalog, every time I place a hold I have to enter my information; I log on, and I get signed out after maybe ten minutes of idleness - I'm probably surfing Amazon to find the RIGHT book...) *I want to be able to turn on alerts for things like service outages, due dates, and overdues with quick access to renew, let alone modify my account profile and add password hints... (people are very forgetful) So, from these wants, here is a basic (non-comprehensive) list of features we need to build a better catalog: 1. XML format 2. More (and better) content 3. More pictures 4. Smarter search engine 5. RSS on the fly 6. Commenting!! Commenting!! 7. User accounts 8. Single sign-in 9. User created lists/content 10. Permalinks 11. FRBR 2.0 12. Highly customizable interface 13. Highly user-friendly account settings/options 14. Smart spell-check aka related spelling/search terms 15. Organizable search results So for those who aren't very technical and are kind of freaking out about the grocery list, the basic configurations should still be in tact with ability to enable the customization tools. I am tired of code that is falling apart, personally, and I would love to have a "skin" collection similar to MySpace, where you can pick or share your theme (with small customizations for name, etc), so the smaller libraries can also have a pretty catalog. Or even being able to share the customized configuration files without loss of security? Seems like the world, but aren't we paying a fortune for these systems? -- In peace, Amy M Ostrom Web Interface Designer amostrom <at> gmail.com The very latest from Talis read the latest news at www.talis.com/news listen to our podcasts www.talis.com/podcasts see us at these events www.talis.com/events join the discussion here www.talis.com/forums join our developer community www.talis.com/tdn and read our blogs www.talis.com/blogs Any views or personal opinions expressed within this email may not be those of Talis Information Ltd. The content of this email message and any files that may be attached are confidential, and for the usage of the intended recipient only. If you are not the intended recipient, then please return this message to the sender and delete it. Any use of this e-mail by an unauthorised recipient is prohibited.
Gail Richardson | 12 Dec 18:09
Picon

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post)


Thank you for your awesome list. I think it is safe to say that this is what we all want - as users, and *for* our users. And it should all be possible, shouldn't it? Whether we will ever find all of this, or even most of it, through a vendor product, I don't know. I don't suspect so. So how can we do this for ourselves, do it right, and be consistent? I hate that each library does whatever slightly differently. I think it would be great if I could just go to one giant libary site, search and discover, then finally link to my local library where I can place a hold and pick it up.  I'm circulating this list to our staff - and putting it under the organizational Christmas Tree. Cheers - Gail

Gail Richardson - Ext. 5062
E-Services Coordinator
Oakville Public Library
120 Navy Street
(corner of Lakeshore Road and Navy Street)
Oakville, Ontario L6J 2Z4
Telephone: 905-815-2042
Fax: 905-815-2024



Amy Ostrom <amostrom <at> GMAIL.COM>
Sent by: Next generation catalogs for libraries <NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu>

12/12/2006 11:00 AM

Please respond to
Next generation catalogs for libraries <NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu>

To
NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu
cc
Subject
[NGC4LIB] Laundry list for NGC (long post)





Dear NGC4Libbers:

I have not been able to keep up with all the posts, but it seems no one will just create a substantial list - too much theory and questioning/doubt behind everything.  I don't know about anyone else, but I am myself an end user, and I have a LOT of things I would love to see.  I don't care if it is done in collaboration with Amazon, or Worldcat, or any organization, but this is what I want.  I hope this proves beneficial.  (Apologies in advance for a long post.)

*I want it all in one place with option to see more or less (if it's on a booklist let me know, if it has reviews let me see them, put it all in the same place; if the library has it in audio and book format, put it in the same record!, seriously, if one type isn't in, I'll take another format - I don't want to click on 15 records just to find something; I also want to be able to hide some stuff if it is too cluttered)

*I want descriptions, dangit!  And why does no software exist for integrating series information in the catalog??  I want to know what the next book is!  (nothing like clicking on something you think you know what it is, and then it really isn't.  I HATE that for something I might be interested in, I have to go to Amazon first to find anything)

*I want to see related/similar materials (I want a smarter version of http://www.literature-map.com/, either to graphically display the closeness of the book/author, or to at least list what others think are close)

*I want to make wishlists and my own booklists (heck, if I read an awesome series, I want to let others see these books if they share similar tastes; also I may not have time to read right now, but doesn't mean I want to forget a book I found that might be worth reading later)

*I want pictures!  (I am visual, I'll know it's the right book if I can see it first; I want to see a sample of of the content as well, but would settle for a description)

*I want suggested searches and ways to narrow or broaden the search I made (if I can't remember the name or misspell it, I want it to act like Amazon and pull up suggested spellings or related searches, also broken down by category)

*I want the search to pull up the RIGHT materials (rank by popularity would work better than what item was last cataloged; Amazon is very good with its algorithm, it's not that hard to replicate - we can record how many times a record was viewed and how many times it was checked out, we know its publication date, we know its format, why can't we organize the search better?)

*I want an RSS feed for new items based on a search query (heck yeah I want to know what just came in without going to the catalog every day so I can get my hold on it ASAP, but I don't want to know EVERY item that is purchased, only what I am looking for; great for current awareness as well)

*I want to see the newly available items, especially in DVDs, CDs, and games (not just an RSS feed out, but actually on the site!)

*I want to know how long the wait list is, in days and or queue location (if it's too long, I'll just go buy the item)

*I want permalinks, so I can link to a book from my blog to the catalog instead of to amazon or remember easily how to get back to it without running the search again (I am all about promoting the library, but Amazon is better than the library could ever be with marketing and promoting, let's take their example!)

*It would be awesome to create my custom display, so I see what I want in the color I like (okay, it's a stretch, but it's all about customizing and personalizing these days)

*I want a map to show me the general shelf I might find my item (so many times an item was pulled out of the general collection and I pull my hair out in frustration)

*I want a library where I only have to sign in once, ONCE! (in my library catalog, every time I place a hold I have to enter my information; I log on, and I get signed out after maybe ten minutes of idleness - I'm probably surfing Amazon to find the RIGHT book...)

*I want to be able to turn on alerts for things like service outages, due dates, and overdues with quick access to renew, let alone modify my account profile and add password hints... (people are very forgetful)


So, from these wants, here is a basic (non-comprehensive) list of features we need to build a better catalog:

1.  XML format
2.  More (and better) content
3.  More pictures
4.  Smarter search engine
5.  RSS on the fly
6.  Commenting!!  Commenting!!
7.  User accounts
8.  Single sign-in
9.  User created lists/content
10. Permalinks
11. FRBR 2.0
12. Highly customizable interface
13. Highly user-friendly account settings/options
14. Smart spell-check aka related spelling/search terms
15. Organizable search results

So for those who aren't very technical and are kind of freaking out about the grocery list, the basic configurations should still be in tact with ability to enable the customization tools.  I am tired of code that is falling apart, personally, and I would love to have a "skin" collection similar to MySpace, where you can pick or share your theme (with small customizations for name, etc), so the smaller libraries can also have a pretty catalog.  Or even being able to share the customized configuration files without loss of security?  Seems like the world, but aren't we paying a fortune for these systems?

--

In peace,

Amy M Ostrom
Web Interface Designer
amostrom <at> gmail.com
Karen Coyle | 12 Dec 18:49

Re: Laundry list for NGC (long post)

And I'm adding it to futurelib.pbwiki.com  (password: dewey76 -- all
welcome to add and edit) - kc

Gail Richardson wrote:

> > Thank you for your awesome list. I think it is safe to say that this > is what we all want - as users, and *for* our users. And it should all > be possible, shouldn't it? Whether we will ever find all of this, or > even most of it, through a vendor product, I don't know. I don't > suspect so. So how can we do this for ourselves, do it right, and be > consistent? I hate that each library does whatever slightly > differently. I think it would be great if I could just go to one giant > libary site, search and discover, then finally link to my local > library where I can place a hold and pick it up. I'm circulating this > list to our staff - and putting it under the organizational Christmas > Tree. Cheers - Gail > > Gail Richardson - Ext. 5062 > E-Services Coordinator > Oakville Public Library > 120 Navy Street > (corner of Lakeshore Road and Navy Street) > Oakville, Ontario L6J 2Z4 > Telephone: 905-815-2042 > Fax: 905-815-2024 > > > > *Amy Ostrom <amostrom <at> GMAIL.COM>* > Sent by: Next generation catalogs for libraries <NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu> > > 12/12/2006 11:00 AM > Please respond to > Next generation catalogs for libraries <NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu> > > > > To > NGC4LIB <at> listserv.nd.edu > cc > > Subject > [NGC4LIB] Laundry list for NGC (long post) > > > > > > > > > > Dear NGC4Libbers: > > I have not been able to keep up with all the posts, but it seems no > one will just create a substantial list - too much theory and > questioning/doubt behind everything. I don't know about anyone else, > but I am myself an end user, and I have a LOT of things I would love > to see. I don't care if it is done in collaboration with Amazon, or > Worldcat, or any organization, but this is what I want. I hope this > proves beneficial. (Apologies in advance for a long post.) > > *I want it all in one place with option to see more or less (if it's > on a booklist let me know, if it has reviews let me see them, put it > all in the same place; if the library has it in audio and book format, > put it in the same record!, seriously, if one type isn't in, I'll take > another format - I don't want to click on 15 records just to find > something; I also want to be able to hide some stuff if it is too > cluttered) > > *I want descriptions, dangit! And why does no software exist for > integrating series information in the catalog?? I want to know what > the next book is! (nothing like clicking on something you think you > know what it is, and then it really isn't. I HATE that for something > I might be interested in, I have to go to Amazon first to find anything) > > *I want to see related/similar materials (I want a smarter version of > _http://www.literature-map.com/_, either to graphically display the > closeness of the book/author, or to at least list what others think > are close) > > *I want to make wishlists and my own booklists (heck, if I read an > awesome series, I want to let others see these books if they share > similar tastes; also I may not have time to read right now, but > doesn't mean I want to forget a book I found that might be worth > reading later) > > *I want pictures! (I am visual, I'll know it's the right book if I > can see it first; I want to see a sample of of the content as well, > but would settle for a description) > > *I want suggested searches and ways to narrow or broaden the search I > made (if I can't remember the name or misspell it, I want it to act > like Amazon and pull up suggested spellings or related searches, also > broken down by category) > > *I want the search to pull up the RIGHT materials (rank by popularity > would work better than what item was last cataloged; Amazon is very > good with its algorithm, it's not that hard to replicate - we can > record how many times a record was viewed and how many times it was > checked out, we know its publication date, we know its format, why > can't we organize the search better?) > > *I want an RSS feed for new items based on a search query (heck yeah I > want to know what just came in without going to the catalog every day > so I can get my hold on it ASAP, but I don't want to know EVERY item > that is purchased, only what I am looking for; great for current > awareness as well) > > *I want to see the newly available items, especially in DVDs, CDs, and > games (not just an RSS feed out, but actually on the site!) > > *I want to know how long the wait list is, in days and or queue > location (if it's too long, I'll just go buy the item) > > *I want permalinks, so I can link to a book from my blog to the > catalog instead of to amazon or remember easily how to get back to it > without running the search again (I am all about promoting the > library, but Amazon is better than the library could ever be with > marketing and promoting, let's take their example!) > > *It would be awesome to create my custom display, so I see what I want > in the color I like (okay, it's a stretch, but it's all about > customizing and personalizing these days) > > *I want a map to show me the general shelf I might find my item (so > many times an item was pulled out of the general collection and I pull > my hair out in frustration) > > *I want a library where I only have to sign in once, ONCE! (in my > library catalog, every time I place a hold I have to enter my > information; I log on, and I get signed out after maybe ten minutes of > idleness - I'm probably surfing Amazon to find the RIGHT book...) > > *I want to be able to turn on alerts for things like service outages, > due dates, and overdues with quick access to renew, let alone modify > my account profile and add password hints... (people are very forgetful) > > > So, from these wants, here is a basic (non-comprehensive) list of > features we need to build a better catalog: > > 1. XML format > 2. More (and better) content > 3. More pictures > 4. Smarter search engine > 5. RSS on the fly > 6. Commenting!! Commenting!! > 7. User accounts > 8. Single sign-in > 9. User created lists/content > 10. Permalinks > 11. FRBR 2.0 > 12. Highly customizable interface > 13. Highly user-friendly account settings/options > 14. Smart spell-check aka related spelling/search terms > 15. Organizable search results > > So for those who aren't very technical and are kind of freaking out > about the grocery list, the basic configurations should still be in > tact with ability to enable the customization tools. I am tired of > code that is falling apart, personally, and I would love to have a > "skin" collection similar to MySpace, where you can pick or share your > theme (with small customizations for name, etc), so the smaller > libraries can also have a pretty catalog. Or even being able to share > the customized configuration files without loss of security? Seems > like the world, but aren't we paying a fortune for these systems? > > -- > > In peace, > > Amy M Ostrom > Web Interface Designer_ > __amostrom <at> gmail.com_ <mailto:amostrom <at> gmail.com>
-- ----------------------------------- Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant kcoyle <at> kcoyle.net http://www.kcoyle.net ph.: 510-540-7596 fx.: 510-848-3913 mo.: 510-435-8234 ------------------------------------

Gmane