gmane.education.libraries.autocat

John McPike | 15 May 21:16

Second Life--game or virtual reality?

Hello Autocatters:

Book in hand: The making of Second Life, OCLC #155715254

In the record, Second Life is listed as the subject, with the qualifier
"game". Consequently the DDC number assigned by LC is 794.8, computer
games. There's also an additional subject heading, Shared virtual
environments. 

I've never used Second Life myself and don't know much about it, but I
believe that the "game" qualifier is no longer accurate. According to a
Wikipedia article I located recently, Second Life is more of a shared
virtual world in which users, called "Residents", can interact,
participate in various individual and group activities, and engage in
commerce. It would seem that Second Life has expanded beyond the
parameters of a computer game and evolved (as it is still evolving) into
a shared virtual experience with commercial, educational, and social
networking applications.  For that reason, I feel that Second Life could
be given the qualifier "shared virtual environment" instead of "game"
and classed with that subject in 006.8.

What do others think?

Thanks for your input!

John McPike

Library Technician/Cataloger

Sacramento Public Library

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Mike Tribby | 15 May 21:25

Re: Second Life--game or virtual reality?

"I feel that Second Life could be given the qualifier "shared virtual environment" instead of "game"
and classed with that subject in 006.8.
What do others think?"

Only if books about Chicago Cubs fans can then have the subject heading "Wrigley Field (Shared virtual
environment)" as well. From the description of the Wikipedia article it sounds like other alternate
reality games might be just as deserving of the qualifer upgrade John suggests, too, at least
theoretically. In my world Second Life is still a game, but then my world could be a lot more virtual I
suppose. Though I don't know why.

Mike Tribby
Senior Cataloger
Quality Books Inc.
The Best of America's Independent Presses

mailto:mike.tribby@...

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sandra freeman | 16 May 00:36

Re: Second Life--game or virtual reality?

"From the description of the Wikipedia article" 

   
  Hmmm...Hello Everybody...I should probably just keep quiet, but I haven't quite perfected that skill yet
even though I am working on it. Anyway to get to the point: We (my classmates and I) are being taught in
library school that Wikipedia is not a resource of choice to use. What do those in the trenches think?

Sandra J. Freeman
  Certified Teacher in Elementary Ed., Biology, Chemistry, General Science, Social Studies, Business Ed,
and Library Media
  South Mississippi
  freeman_sandra_j@...

  When I get a little money, I buy books; and, if any is left, I buy food
and clothes." 
~attributed to Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus 

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Tina Gunther | 16 May 01:45

Re: Second Life--game or virtual reality?

Sandra Freeman wrote:
> We (my classmates and I) are being taught in library school
> that Wikipedia is not a resource of choice to use. What do
> those in the trenches think?

It depends on the topic and the type of information.
In this case, the discussion topic is one of popular culture.
I would think that Wikipedia would be a valid source in that area.

Tina Gunther <tina.gunther@...>
Cataloging Technician I
Biola University Library
La Mirada CA USA

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David Bennett | 16 May 10:27

Re: Second Life--game or virtual reality?

Whilst Wikipedia is an accessible and freely available resource that has
been favouribly compared with the Encyclopaedia Britannica in the past
(Nature 438, 900-901), it is a very general and imperfectly maintained
resource in which each entry is only as good as the last person who
edited it.  

A recent article in Times Higher Education (24 April 2008) reported
that an experiment where libraries were asked a series of reference
enquiries were answered less correctly in 2008 than in 1987, which was
largely blamed on a reliance on Google and Wikipedia over authoritative
reference resources.  Almost all libraries the libraries answered thet
question, "What is the boiling point of ethanol?" incorrectly because
they had referred to an erroneous figure given on Wikipedia.  A far
better reference resource to use would have been the CRC Handbook of
Chemistry and Physics, even though it is usually available only in
print.

David E Bennett
Bibliographic Resources Officer
University of Portsmouth

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"From the description of the Wikipedia article" 

We (my classmates and I) are being taught in library school that
Wikipedia is not a resource of choice to use. What do those in the
trenches think?

Sandra J. Freeman
Certified Teacher in Elementary Ed., Biology, Chemistry, General

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Thomas Meehan | 16 May 15:24

Re: Second Life--game or virtual reality?

>
> A recent article in Times Higher Education (24 April 2008) reported
> that an experiment where libraries were asked a series of reference
> enquiries were answered less correctly in 2008 than in 1987, which was
> largely blamed on a reliance on Google and Wikipedia over authoritative
> reference resources.  Almost all libraries the libraries answered thet
> question, "What is the boiling point of ethanol?" incorrectly because
> they had referred to an erroneous figure given on Wikipedia.  A far
> better reference resource to use would have been the CRC Handbook of
> Chemistry and Physics, even though it is usually available only in
> print.
I didn't see the original of this TES report, but I have read of it (and 
might have it wrong). What worries me is that
1) Students expect or are expected to ring up the university library to 
ask about facts (rather than to ask where to look it up themselves).
2) The answer is given as "x degrees C", not as "x degrees C according 
to source y".
3) We are happy trusting the results of something that was printed in 
the British media. I would rather go with Wikipedia, which is where much 
of the British media gets its facts from anyway...

BTW, It would also worry me were students regularly consulting and 
citing Britannica for undergraduate work. I think too much of the 
emphasis on the Wikipedia debate centres on its wiki nature rather than 
its nature as a general encyclopedia.

Thomas Meehan

- 
Thomas Meehan

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Mike Tribby | 16 May 15:42

wikipedia as a reliable source, was: RE: [ACAT] Second Life--game or virtual reality?

In getting a little background information about some Hollywood doings for a book review, I happened to
look up Lizabeth Scott's entry on Wikipedia. In the early 1950s there was a rash of "reports" in the US
tabloid press of the time (Confidential and its ilk) that Scott was involved in same-sex romantic
relationships and was a notable member of a lesbian society of some sort or another within the film
community. As usual with such charges in that time period, nothing was ever publically proven or
resolved, but Scott entertained the idea of suing the purveyors of the salacious charges and famously did
not follow through. I bring this up because until this month there was a paragraph in her entry in Wikipedia
that mentioned this in a fairly objective if brief manner. That paragraph has since been excised, and if
one pokes around a little in Wikipedia's various nooks and crannies, it looks as if there has been some
controversy about this sort of mention--not just with Scott--and an ongoing discussion about putting
non-verified information in Wikipedia articles (the exised text can be found with a little searching on
the Wikipedia site). The thing I find disturbing is that the entry never said Scott was or wasn't gay, just
that there was a public controversy about the issue. As anyone who's read any of James Ellroy's LA-based
books and stories knows, this isn't exactly a secret. It seems to me that deleting the mere mention of a pop
culture scandal that indubitably occurred calls into question what else may have been sanitized out of
Wikipedia. I still use Wikipedia as a ready reference source, but I don't advise considering it
authoritative without verification from other sources.

In the recent past I am aware of several entries in Wikipedia that have been frozen due to excessive or
malicious editing and re-editing. Anything in Wikipedia, as someone else noted, is only as reliable as
the last person to edit it.

Mike Tribby
Senior Cataloger
Quality Books Inc.
The Best of America's Independent Presses

mailto:mike.tribby@...

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George Gottschalk | 16 May 16:47

Re: Second Life--game or virtual reality?

 I apologize for perpetuating this journey down a path that is not exactly
cataloging related, however as a library program student as well I think
I'll chime in just briefly about Wikipedia.  Our faculty (rightly so, I
think) have neither condemned nor endorsed Wikipedia.  They encourage us to
think about the ramifications of Wikipedia as an information resource, but
they have not stated anything definitive about its quality, reliability,
etc.

My own personal opinion is that it is akin to any information resource.  One
hears comparisons to Encyclopedia Britannica a lot.  I refer to Encyclopedia
Britannica on occasion for quick facts or a brief overview of a topic.  I do
the same with Wikipedia.  I would not use Wikipedia as a source if I were
writing a paper except in very rare instances.  However, I would not use
Encyclopedia Britannica as a source either except in very rare instances.  I
have not used an encyclopedia as a source since I was in the 7th grade,
actually, because I can't imagine a paper where an encyclopedia would be a
meaningful source to cite.

I suspect that Wikipedia is not going away.  It also doesn't seem as though
users (including myself) are going to cease using it no matter what kind of
snit their local librarian gets themselves worked up into.  I think as
librarians or "information professionals" (as seems to be a popular phrase)
we can't very well be authoritative resources in our own right if we're
completely ignoring a resource that is of major importance to our users.

To tie it in with the current discussions I would be fascinated to hear
someone explain to me how it can be at all consistent to be anti-Wikipedia
yet pro-Second Life.  Is there something magical about Second Life that
guarantees that everyone who enters into its realm is virtuous, honest and
fastidious about the information they disseminate?  Is there something

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David Bigwood | 16 May 18:22

Re: Second Life--game or virtual reality?

Sandra,

It depends. If an MD relies on it for life-or-death decisions, or a money
manager uses it for investing decisions, that is wrong. If it is used to
settle a Star Trek argument it is fine. It can be a good place to start
research. Articles will often have links to other sources. It is also very
handy for current geeky topics. Think about who is contributing and editing
it. Want to know abut Wikis or RSS or Podcasting? It would not be a bad
place to start, or even finish if your interest was cursory.

Think about it, when would World Book be enough? When would it be a starting
place? neither would be cited in professional papers but they have their
place.

The trick with reference is knowing when to use the proper tool for the
question.

If on the other hand you're being told not to use it as a reference in a
paper you hand in, that is fine. Would you cite World Book on your paper?
Hope not. For grad school papers it is fine to require more scholarlly
works. If you are clueless about the topic, it could give background and a
place to start but not in your bibliography.

Sincerely,
David Bigwood
bigwood@...
Catalogablog
http://catalogablog.blogspot.com

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:36 PM, sandra freeman <freeman_sandra_j@...>

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Bristow, Barbara | 15 May 21:24

Re: Second Life--game or virtual reality?

If I recall correctly, at least one of the Wilson indexes created the heading with the qualifier game.  All of
the indexes have revised to or created Second Life (Web site).

Barbara Bristow
Editor, OmniFile
H. W. Wilson Company 

-----Original Message-----
From: AUTOCAT [mailto:AUTOCAT@...]On Behalf Of John McPike
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 3:17 PM
To: AUTOCAT@...
Subject: [ACAT] Second Life--game or virtual reality?

Hello Autocatters:

Book in hand: The making of Second Life, OCLC #155715254

In the record, Second Life is listed as the subject, with the qualifier
"game". Consequently the DDC number assigned by LC is 794.8, computer
games. There's also an additional subject heading, Shared virtual
environments. 

I've never used Second Life myself and don't know much about it, but I
believe that the "game" qualifier is no longer accurate. According to a
Wikipedia article I located recently, Second Life is more of a shared
virtual world in which users, called "Residents", can interact,
participate in various individual and group activities, and engage in
commerce. It would seem that Second Life has expanded beyond the
parameters of a computer game and evolved (as it is still evolving) into
a shared virtual experience with commercial, educational, and social

(Continue reading)

headers

Cynthia Hsieh | 15 May 21:29

Re: Second Life--game or virtual reality?

A gamer myself, I would say that Second Life is more a game than a
Shared virtual environment since I did not reveal my true identity in
Second Life.  To me, Second Life is a way to escape "reality."   

-----Original Message-----
From: AUTOCAT [mailto:AUTOCAT@...] On Behalf Of John McPike
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 12:17 PM
To: AUTOCAT@...
Subject: [ACAT] Second Life--game or virtual reality?

Hello Autocatters:

Book in hand: The making of Second Life, OCLC #155715254

In the record, Second Life is listed as the subject, with the qualifier
"game". Consequently the DDC number assigned by LC is 794.8, computer
games. There's also an additional subject heading, Shared virtual
environments. 

I've never used Second Life myself and don't know much about it, but I
believe that the "game" qualifier is no longer accurate. According to a
Wikipedia article I located recently, Second Life is more of a shared
virtual world in which users, called "Residents", can interact,
participate in various individual and group activities, and engage in
commerce. It would seem that Second Life has expanded beyond the
parameters of a computer game and evolved (as it is still evolving) into
a shared virtual experience with commercial, educational, and social
networking applications.  For that reason, I feel that Second Life could
be given the qualifier "shared virtual environment" instead of "game"
and classed with that subject in 006.8.

(Continue reading)

headers

Ryan Tamares | 15 May 21:36

Re: Second Life--game or virtual reality?

I can appreciate the point Cynthia makes, but that leaves out the other 
uses of SL, i.e., what of the school programs that use the SL platform as 
an alternative classroom and do not shield their identities?

Just a thought, and now I wonder how this affects the choice of qualifier 
and/or subject headings.

Ryan Tamares
rtamares@...

Cynthia Hsieh <chsieh@...> 
Sent by: AUTOCAT <AUTOCAT@...>
05/15/2008 12:29 PM
Please respond to
AUTOCAT <AUTOCAT@...>; Please respond to
Cynthia Hsieh <chsieh@...>

To
AUTOCAT@...
cc

Subject
Re: [ACAT] Second Life--game or virtual reality?

A gamer myself, I would say that Second Life is more a game than a
Shared virtual environment since I did not reveal my true identity in
Second Life.  To me, Second Life is a way to escape "reality." 

***********************************************************************

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Becky Yoose | 15 May 21:38

Re: Second Life--game or virtual reality?

As another gamer on board, I see SL as a virtual world since there is no
definite goal to SL like you would find in a game. There's no boss to fight,
dungeon to raid, or world to save. Even the Sims has the goal to keep your
Sim happy and alive. SL does not have any defined storyline or goal to play
out. It's basically a user-created virtual world where users can do pretty
much whatever they want.

Thanks,
Becky Y.

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Cynthia Hsieh <chsieh@...> wrote:

> A gamer myself, I would say that Second Life is more a game than a
> Shared virtual environment since I did not reveal my true identity in
> Second Life.  To me, Second Life is a way to escape "reality."
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AUTOCAT [mailto:AUTOCAT@...] On Behalf Of John McPike
> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 12:17 PM
> To: AUTOCAT@...
> Subject: [ACAT] Second Life--game or virtual reality?
>
> Hello Autocatters:
>
>
>
> Book in hand: The making of Second Life, OCLC #155715254
>
>
>

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Cathy Rettberg | 15 May 22:42

Re: Second Life--game or virtual reality?

I use SL to attend conferences and book events, not to play games. I think
that's becoming more and more true - I'm guessing that the attendees at the
weekly Science Friday events wouldn't describe themselves as playing a game.
There are authors who hold SL events, new music releases, etc. I'm not a
cataloger (beyond making changes to LOC records to suit my school library)
but my opinion is that this is much more like our course management systems
(Blackboard, Moodle, etc) that allow real-time interactions along with
asynchronous postings.  SL can be synchronous or asynchronous depending on
the application. And yes I understand that it can also be something of a
dating space (ie the best of games) but that's not my area of expertise  

Interesting to watch how Web 2.0 features are changing our world, even in
the arena of cataloging!

Cathy
--

-- 
Cathy Rettberg, Head Librarian
Menlo School
Atherton, CA
http://library.menloschool.org

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 12:16 PM, John McPike <jmcpike@...>
wrote:

> Hello Autocatters:
>
>
>
> Book in hand: The making of Second Life, OCLC #155715254
>

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Spila, Mary | 16 May 15:02

Re: Second Life--game or virtual reality?

I may get shot down for this...but it really depends.  

I have it from an extremely reliable source that the articles on comic
book related subjects and science fiction related subjects are really
good.

Some of the history bits are really good (More my area of expertise),
but even that varies.

I wouldn't necessarily use it as a cited source, but I would check out
the bibliographies at the end of the article to find sources to use.  

In the interest of education/teaching, because the source is uneven at
best, I would not accept it as a cited source from students.  However, I
would also explain WHY it isn't a good source and show them how to use
it as a tool to find good sources.  My undergraduate degree is a B.S.
Ed, in Library Science, pre-Wikipedia.

Mary

********************************************
Mary M. Spila
Pennsylvania Documents Cataloger
State Library of Pennsylvania
333 Market St.
Harrisburg, PA 17126-1745
717-783-3884

-----Original Message-----
From: AUTOCAT [mailto:AUTOCAT@...] On Behalf Of sandra

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Bill Schryba | 16 May 18:19

Re: Second Life--game or virtual reality? (Not about Wikipedia)

Hello,

	The techniques used in Second Life are those game
developers/programmers/players use, so I would say games should
definitely be reflected in the subject headings. As to assigning a call
number, Union County College has a game development program, and given
the relationship (primary or important secondary) and the fact game
developers might not think of Second Life as a resource or example,
shelving Second Life materials with games seems to be the best choice
for our patrons.* Non-game developers can still get to it though subject
or keyword searches. If we did not have a game development program, I
would think that it might be better to shelve most (if not all) of them
under "shared virtual environment." This would seem to be more in accord
with Second Life not really matching a strict definition of a game
(seems to me multiplayer computer games would be a subset of "shared
virtual environments"(??) and you would want the more general for Second
Life); for general patrons being less likely to look for it as a game;
and is less likely to result in offended patrons ("I have a PhD and
Second Life is not a game!!"- this has not happened at UCC so far).
Having said that, the issue of where something is physically located has
become less important. We are getting more virtual resources only
accessible through the web and we have fewer patrons looking for print
resources.

Bill Schryba

Technical Services
Union County College

* Small print disclaimer: we are dependant on copy cataloging, and don't

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