gmane.emacs.help

SomeDeveloper | 9 Jul 17:19

How to type when using Emacs?

Hello,

Just getting started with Emacs. Would like to get advice on how to
train finger movement when learning/using Emacs.

Should I try to continue to follow standard, English typing rules...
where you park your fingers on the home-row, and then press a key only
with the finger reserved for it? Or, should I feel free to jump
arbitrarily or do whatever is necessary/convenient to become effective
longer-term?

Saw an article or two on the Net ( http://steve.yegge.googlepages.com/effective-emacs
) where the authors are recommending swapping CAPS and CTRL keys. Not
sure if this by itself would be enough, or if I would need to also
break standard typing rules?

For example: If I had to type
   C-x t C-u 8 0

using the standard typing rules, I would use
   <finger>  ( <for-key> )

  Right pinky (C)
  Left ring finger (x)
  Left pinky (C)
  Right index finger (u)
  Right middle finger (8)
  Right pinky (0)

How would you type the above? Similarly, an example recommendation of

(Continue reading)

Xah | 9 Jul 22:24

Re: How to type when using Emacs?

About touch-typing habits when using emacs shortcuts keys ...

I've done some research in the past few years and wrote few articles
on this ... Please see:

• How To Avoid The Emacs Pinky Problem
http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs_pinky.html

• Why Emacs's Keyboard Shortcuts Are Painful
http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs_kb_shortcuts_pain.html

• A Ergonomic Keyboard Shortcut Layout
http://xahlee.org/emacs/ergonomic_emacs_keybinding.html

Personally, i've been using my ergo shortcut map for a year now.

Here's my “.emacs” for keybinding:

http://xahlee.org/emacs/ergonomic_keybinding_unbind.el
http://xahlee.org/emacs/ergonomic_keybinding_dvorak.el
http://xahlee.org/emacs/xah_emacs_kbd_shortcuts.el

  Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/

☄

On Jul 9, 8:22 am, SomeDeveloper <somedevelo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>

(Continue reading)

Allan | 10 Jul 03:35

Re: How to type when using Emacs?

SomeDeveloper <somedeveloper <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Hello,
>
> Just getting started with Emacs. Would like to get advice on how to
> train finger movement when learning/using Emacs.
>
> Should I try to continue to follow standard, English typing rules...
> where you park your fingers on the home-row, and then press a key only
> with the finger reserved for it? Or, should I feel free to jump
> arbitrarily or do whatever is necessary/convenient to become effective
> longer-term?
>
> Saw an article or two on the Net ( http://steve.yegge.googlepages.com/effective-emacs
> ) where the authors are recommending swapping CAPS and CTRL keys. Not
> sure if this by itself would be enough, or if I would need to also
> break standard typing rules?
>
> For example: If I had to type
>    C-x t C-u 8 0
>
> using the standard typing rules, I would use
>    <finger>  ( <for-key> )
>
>   Right pinky (C)
>   Left ring finger (x)
>   Left pinky (C)
>   Right index finger (u)
>   Right middle finger (8)
>   Right pinky (0)

(Continue reading)

Alan Mackenzie | 9 Jul 20:47

Re: How to type when using Emacs?

SomeDeveloper <somedeveloper <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,

Hi!

> Just getting started with Emacs. Would like to get advice on how to
> train finger movement when learning/using Emacs.

I've used Emacs a lot for a long time.  What I'm about to say works for
me, but there's no guarantee it'll work for you.  I suggest you take
everybody's suggestions here and try them out.  Then put them together
in the way which works for you.

> Should I try to continue to follow standard, English typing rules...
> where you park your fingers on the home-row, and then press a key only
> with the finger reserved for it? Or, should I feel free to jump
> arbitrarily or do whatever is necessary/convenient to become effective
> longer-term?

I stick to English touch-typing rules.  If you can do it, I'd stick with
this.  However, I've also got a secondary "home position", with my right
hand down by the 4 arrow keys (middle, ring, pinky), <ctrl> (thumb) and
<shift> (fore).

> Saw an article or two on the Net ( http://steve.yegge.googlepages.com/effective-emacs
> ) where the authors are recommending swapping CAPS and CTRL keys. Not
> sure if this by itself would be enough, or if I would need to also
> break standard typing rules?

I tried this once, but it didn't gain me enough to make it worth the

(Continue reading)

William Case | 10 Jul 05:31

Re: [Bulk] How to type when using Emacs?

Glad you asked;

I always felt too much of a newbie to ask; although I have been using
emacs on and off for three years.

I hope many experienced users take the time to respond.  I for one will
be watching this thread closely.

On Wed, 2008-07-09 at 08:22 -0700, SomeDeveloper wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Just getting started with Emacs. Would like to get advice on how to
> train finger movement when learning/using Emacs.
> 
[snip]
> /SD
--

-- 
Regards Bill;
Fedora 9, Gnome 2.22.2
Evo.2.22.2, Emacs 22.2.1

Lennart Borgman (gmail | 10 Jul 10:04

Re: How to type when using Emacs?

SomeDeveloper wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Just getting started with Emacs. Would like to get advice on how to
> train finger movement when learning/using Emacs.
> 
> Should I try to continue to follow standard, English typing rules...
> where you park your fingers on the home-row, and then press a key only
> with the finger reserved for it?

I always use normal touch-typing rules. Maybe that would be difficult if 
I did not use sticky keys/modifiers:

   http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/StickyModifiers

Beside that I try to use what I am accustomed to. So I turn on cua-mode 
and viper-mode.

Thien-Thi Nguyen | 10 Jul 09:33

Re: How to type when using Emacs?

() SomeDeveloper <somedeveloper <at> gmail.com>
() Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:22:57 -0700 (PDT)

   Or, should I feel free to jump arbitrarily or do whatever is
   necessary/convenient to become effective longer-term?

stillness of mind sought,
hands unbud (one nanosec):
jam the Right key now.

focusing all thought,
no one but NSA cares
your tapping Fist how.

thi

Joel J. Adamson | 10 Jul 21:40

Re: How to type when using Emacs?

SomeDeveloper <somedeveloper <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Hello,

Okay, before I read everyone else's responses, as I am academically
curious after seeing the bad typing habits of some fellow heavy keyboard
users...

> Just getting started with Emacs. Would like to get advice on how to
> train finger movement when learning/using Emacs.
>
> Should I try to continue to follow standard, English typing rules...
> where you park your fingers on the home-row, and then press a key only
> with the finger reserved for it? 

Absolutely --- do not hunt and peck, do not use two fingers on the same
hand at the same time, except in emergencies.  Hold your wrists up from
the table when you type and take frequent breaks.

> Or, should I feel free to jump arbitrarily or do whatever is
> necessary/convenient to become effective longer-term?

Hmmm???  How are you going to develop your own typing strategy from
scratch?  Just curious on this one.

>
> Saw an article or two on the Net (
>http://steve.yegge.googlepages.com/effective-emacs ) where the authors
>are recommending swapping CAPS and CTRL keys. Not sure if this by
>itself would be enough, or if I would need to also break standard

(Continue reading)

Joel J. Adamson | 10 Jul 21:45

Re: How to type when using Emacs?

SomeDeveloper <somedeveloper <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Saw an article or two on the Net (
> http://steve.yegge.googlepages.com/effective-emacs ) where the authors
> are recommending swapping CAPS and CTRL keys. Not sure if this by
> itself would be enough, or if I would need to also break standard
> typing rules?

Sorry, forgot to fill this in:

I do recommend making the key to the left of "A" a control key; it has
saved me a lot of motion and increased my speed while using Emacs.
However, it's hard to remember that for my wife's desktop, it's still
Caps Lock, and sometimes I end up repeating my typing.

Here's my .Xmodmap file (in case you're using a Unix-like system):

clear lock
!move the control function to the caps lock key
keycode 66 = Control_L
!make the menu key the Caps_Lock key
!keycode 117 = Caps_Lock
!move the menu function to the Left control key 
keycode 37 = Menu
!add lock = Caps_Lock
add control = Control_L

With this modification, by chance, the "menu key" is now "M-x"

Joel

(Continue reading)

harven | 11 Jul 21:33

Re: How to type when using Emacs?

Hi,

I am typing on a laptop keyboard. Switching the control and
caps lock key really was a big relief for me.

Another spot that some people consider is right to the side
of the space bar. This is however the standard position for
the meta key on many keyboards, and a perfect position for it.

I use now the meta key as much as I use the control key.
I think that this will be the case for you as soon as your
emacs skills improve. These two modifiers are really meant
to work together e.g. to reach some point on the line, first
jump over words with M-f then move into the word with
C-f. The combination of the two modifiers also gives
you access to powerful commands -- try for example
C-M-f or C-M-k in front of a parenthesis group.
A well-balanced use of the meta and control
modifiers makes for faster editing and halves the use
of the control key.

Finally, if you want to learn touch-typing, you may want
to have a look to the dvorak layout. See eg
http://dvzine.org/   for more information on this layout.
 You don't need any special keyboard, since
the goal is to type without looking at the keys.
I followed the abcd lesson from
http://www.gigliwood.com/abcd/abcd.html
45 mn a day, became able to touch-type
with this layout in three weeks, and reached a decent speed

(Continue reading)

Florian Beck | 12 Jul 00:34

Re: How to type when using Emacs?

harven <harven <at> free.fr> writes:

> Hi,
>
> I am typing on a laptop keyboard. Switching the control and
> caps lock key really was a big relief for me.

For me too. I rediscovered Emacs about a year ago, and I am almost
exclusively working on my laptop. Using the former CAPS key for CTR
means I only have to move my little finger *one* position from home row
(as opposed to one to the left and two down for the former CONTROL.) I
wouldn't outright dismiss Xah's recommendation, though: it really
depends on your keyboard – if Xah can press CONTROL with his palm, his
keyboard is very different from mine.

So, how to type - that *also* depends on your keyboard. In my case,
CONTROL is almost home row, just left of the »a«. What I would recommend
is to distinguish between commands you use during editing and all other
commands. Command *frequency* is not really the issue. It is more about
work flow. Everything I use when I write has to be near home row, modulo
CTR and META. I use C-j for return (which is *three* steps from home
row) and have bound C-h to backspace.

In my setup, the control keys are somewhat asymmetrically, the right one
being below »_«. This is something you get used to quickly, I think. I
use them pretty much like the SHIFT keys.

Also, I would recommend not to waste home row keybindings on convenience
commands. Even if you are using them as often as once per minute (help
for example), moving my fingers does not hurt in this case. I bound all

(Continue reading)

David Combs | 9 Aug 17:07

Re: How to type when using Emacs?

In article <8763rcm4np.fsf <at> sophokles.streitblatt.de>,
Florian Beck  <abstraktion <at> t-online.de> wrote:
...
>
>Finally, if you are using X, you should definitely make your keyboard
>use ALT, SUPER, HYPER and COMPOSE. (Probably not for editing, though, I
>use ALT for Â»viewingÂ« (e.g. ALT-u outline-up-heading), SUPER for
>rearranging (transposing paragraphs) and reserve HYPER for my window
>manager). 

I try to stay away from windows and use primarily 
a sun and solaris.  And emacs, of course.

Now, you talk about ALT, SUPER, HYPER, and COMPOSE.

For emacs, what do you use those keys for?

(What are they "supposed" to be used for -- that is,
maybe, what acts or intentions gave them those names?)

Thanks!

David

Xah | 9 Aug 21:03

Re: How to type when using Emacs?

On Aug 9, 8:07 am, dkco...@panix.com (David Combs) wrote:
> In article <8763rcm4np....@sophokles.streitblatt.de>,
> Florian Beck  <abstrakt...@t-online.de> wrote:
> ...
>
>
>
> >Finally, if you are using X, you should definitely make your keyboard
> >use ALT, SUPER, HYPER and COMPOSE. (Probably not for editing, though, I
> >use ALT for »viewing« (e.g. ALT-u outline-up-heading), SUPER for
> >rearranging (transposing paragraphs) and reserve HYPER for my window
> >manager).
>
> I try to stay away from windows and use primarily
> a sun and solaris.  And emacs, of course.
>
> Now, you talk about ALT, SUPER, HYPER, and COMPOSE.
>
> For emacs, what do you use those keys for?

Those came from lisp machine's keyboard.

For a detail explanation and photos of lisp keyboards, see:

Why Emacs's Keyboard Shortcuts Are Painful
http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs_kb_shortcuts_pain.html

> (What are they "supposed" to be used for -- that is,
> maybe, what acts or intentions gave them those names?)

(Continue reading)

Memnon Anon | 12 Jul 02:28

Re: How to type when using Emacs?

On 9 Jul., 17:22, SomeDeveloper <somedevelo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Just getting started withEmacs. Would like to get advice on how to
> train finger movement when learning/usingEmacs.
>
Hi!

I am also quite new to emacs.
The first thing I did was mapping caps lock to control.
I tend to press keys quite heavily and using the usual
caps lock postitions is quite painfull after an hour or so.

Another tip I read was to curl your pinkie to press control.
I do this quite a lot for my right hand, because I really try to use
both hands. But my joint still hurts pretty soon actually.

I still recommend curling your right pinkie. It is just a matter of
habbit.

Thanks for your question! You reminded me of an idea I once
had and I am again investigating if it works somehow.
Using my Thinkpad X30, the mouse buttons are right
under my thumbs. (Alt/Meta really is not!)
So I try to find a way to map mouse 1 or 3 (pressed) +
any key to Control + any key and mouse 2 (pressed) +
any key to Alt/Meta + any key.

This would be really convenient, at least on my board.
Still found no really solution to do this.

(Continue reading)

tyler | 12 Jul 03:13

Re: How to type when using Emacs?

Memnon Anon <gegendosenfleisch <at> googlemail.com> writes:

>
> Thanks for your question! You reminded me of an idea I once
> had and I am again investigating if it works somehow.
> Using my Thinkpad X30, the mouse buttons are right
> under my thumbs. (Alt/Meta really is not!)
> So I try to find a way to map mouse 1 or 3 (pressed) +
> any key to Control + any key and mouse 2 (pressed) +
> any key to Alt/Meta + any key.
>
> This would be really convenient, at least on my board.
> Still found no really solution to do this.
> Any suggestions are really appreciated!

I would love to be able to use those three mouse buttons that fall right
under my thumbs instead of (or in addition to) the alt/ctr/hyper keys.
Does anyone know if this is possible?

Cheers,

Tyler

--

-- 
"Windows Vista includes an array of "features" that you don't want.
These features will make your computer less reliable and less secure...
less stable and run slower... And these features won't do anything
useful. In fact, they're working against you." --Bruce Schneier

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/02/drm_in_windows.html

(Continue reading)

don provan | 11 Jul 21:04

Re: How to type when using Emacs?

SomeDeveloper <somedeveloper <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Just getting started with Emacs. Would like to get advice on how to
> train finger movement when learning/using Emacs.

I touch type, just making a slight adjustment for the left pinkie when
necessary to issue commands. Keep in mind that the whole idea of Emacs
text entry is that you enter text normally, and issuing commands is a
exception involving doing something physically different such as
holding down control. So whatever you do, in my opinion, it should be
very easy to type normally. I actually make a couple of adjustments to
the commands to avoid having to go off base for common commands. (I
use ^H for backspace, for example.)

I also avoid using the keypad keys for the most part.

Speaking of left pinkie and Xah's suggestion that you use right
control, I rarely use right control. To a large extent this is habit,
but I think it's also because of something else Xah said: I find that
on most keyboards, right control is way too far away. If you can find
a keyboard with control pulled in to the position Xah suggests, you
might find right control more useful. But do you want to get in the
habit and then have to deal with it when you end up using a standard
layout with right control way out in right field?

-don

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