Robert Frick | 29 Jul 2012 15:43
Favicon

misinformation

Is there any good way of defining "misinformation" for purposes of the  
laws? Just "information that is wrong"? Do they define it in those classes  
they teach?
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Mike Amos | 29 Jul 2012 19:22

Re: misinformation

I prefer "information that is incorrect"

-----Original Message----- 
From: Robert Frick
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 2:43 PM
To: Bridge Laws Mailing List
Subject: [BLML] misinformation

Is there any good way of defining "misinformation" for purposes of the
laws? Just "information that is wrong"? Do they define it in those classes
they teach?
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Nigel Guthrie | 29 Jul 2012 19:49

Re: misinformation

[Robert Frick]
Is there any good way of defining "misinformation" for purposes of the
laws? Just "information that is wrong"? Do they define it in those classes
they teach?

[Mike Amos]
I prefer "information that is incorrect"

[Nigel]
I would prefer " statement by a member of a partnership about the 
significance of their calla or plays that is not in full accord with their 
understandings."

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Sven Pran | 29 Jul 2012 20:07
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Picon

Re: misinformation

> Nigel Guthrie 
> [Robert Frick]
> Is there any good way of defining "misinformation" for purposes of the
laws?
> Just "information that is wrong"? Do they define it in those classes they
> teach?
> 
> 
> [Mike Amos]
> I prefer "information that is incorrect"
> 
> [Nigel]
> I would prefer " statement by a member of a partnership about the
> significance of their calla or plays that is not in full accord with their
> understandings."

[Sven Pran] 

Why be satisfied with a short and concise term when you can find a long
sentence to express the same?

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Grattan | 30 Jul 2012 14:46
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Re: misinformation

+=+ I will have a think about misinformation. The boundaries are in the 
mind. They may encompass in some degree information expressed in a
manner that misleads. 
                   ~ Grattan ~  +=+
........................................................................
..
Grattan<grandaeval <at> tiscali.co.uk
Skype: grattan.endicott
**************************************************
The Rt Hon David Mellor QC is a distinguished wit and raconteur who may
ask £3000 or more for making a speech. He once remarked on TV 
that "Lawyers are like rhinoceroses: thick-skinned, short sighted, and
always ready to charge". 
*************************************************

-----Original Message-----
From: blml-bounces <at> rtflb.org [mailto:blml-bounces <at> rtflb.org] On Behalf
Of Mike Amos
Sent: 29 July 2012 18:23
To: Bridge Laws Mailing List
Subject: Re: [BLML] misinformation

I prefer "information that is incorrect"

-----Original Message----- 
From: Robert Frick
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 2:43 PM
To: Bridge Laws Mailing List
Subject: [BLML] misinformation

(Continue reading)

richard.hills | 31 Jul 2012 01:14
Picon

Re: misinformation [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]

Rumpole of the Bailey:

"The glory of the advocate is to be opinionated,
brash, fearless, partisan, hectoring, rude,
cunning and unfair."

+=+ I will have a think about misinformation.
The boundaries are in the mind. They may
encompass in some degree information
expressed in a manner that misleads.
~ Grattan ~ +=+

ABF Alerting Regulations, third paragraph:

You should follow the principle of full
disclosure (as required by the Laws) in
following these Regulations and in
explanations of calls. Your principle should
be to disclose, not as little as you must, but as
much as you can, and as ++comprehensibly
as you can++. A careless failure to follow this
policy may result in an adjusted score, and
possibly procedural penalties, where
opponents have been damaged. If you make
a ++positive effort++ to meet your obligations
under full disclosure, you will rarely if ever fall
foul of these regulations.


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Steve Willner | 31 Jul 2012 15:23
Favicon

Re: misinformation

On 2012-07-30 8:46 AM, Grattan wrote:
> They may encompass in some degree information expressed in a
> manner that misleads.

It seems to me a practical approach is first to decide what a correct 
explanation would have been, then work out what would have happened if 
the correct explanation had been given.  If that result is more 
favorable to the side receiving the explanation, rule MI and give them 
the benefit.
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Nigel Guthrie | 29 Jul 2012 19:51

Re: misinformation


-----Original Message----- 
From: Nigel Guthrie 
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 6:49 PM 
To: Bridge Laws Mailing List 
Subject: Re: [BLML] misinformation 

[Robert Frick]
Is there any good way of defining "misinformation" for purposes of the
laws? Just "information that is wrong"? Do they define it in those classes
they teach?

[Mike Amos]
I prefer "information that is incorrect"

[Nigel]
I would prefer " statement by a member of a partnership about the 
significance of their calls or plays that is not in full accord with their 
relevant understandings."

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Robert Frick | 31 Jul 2012 21:03
Favicon

Re: misinformation

On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:51:13 -0400, Nigel Guthrie <g3 <at> nige1.com> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nigel Guthrie
> Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 6:49 PM
> To: Bridge Laws Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [BLML] misinformation
>
> [Robert Frick]
> Is there any good way of defining "misinformation" for purposes of the
> laws? Just "information that is wrong"? Do they define it in those  
> classes
> they teach?
>
>
> [Mike Amos]
> I prefer "information that is incorrect"
>
> [Nigel]
> I would prefer " statement by a member of a partnership about the
> significance of their calls or plays that is not in full accord with  
> their
> relevant understandings."

hi Nigel. I am not necessarily arguing with your choice, but it has two  
problems. For L20F6 and the last sentence of L21B1(a), I am guessing the  
lawbook authors had your definition in mind. But for the heading to L47E,  
the author probably had Amos' definition in mind. The heading is "Change  
of Play Based on Misinformation", and L47E1 is being mistakenly informed  
that it is your lead.

Also, I believe words in the laws get their dictionary definition if there  
is no definition in the lawbook. Amos has given the dictionary definition.  
I never found any definition of "misinformation" in the lawbook.

Bob
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Nigel Guthrie | 1 Aug 2012 00:43

Re: misinformation

[Nige1]
statement by a member of a partnership about the significance of their calls 
or plays that is not in full accord with
their relevant understandings."

[Robert Frick]
hi Nigel. I am not necessarily arguing with your choice, but it has two
problems. For L20F6 and the last sentence of L21B1(a), I am guessing the
lawbook authors had your definition in mind. But for the heading to L47E,
the author probably had Amos' definition in mind. The heading is "Change
of Play Based on Misinformation", and L47E1 is being mistakenly informed
that it is your lead.

Also, I believe words in the laws get their dictionary definition if there
is no definition in the lawbook. Amos has given the dictionary definition.
I never found any definition of "misinformation" in the lawbook.

[Nige2]
You know I'm not a TD, but FWIW, IMO:

The use of "misinformation" in law 147E accords with the dictionary meaning.

"misinformation" in the disclosure laws has the different specialised legal 
meaning, that I tried to define.
Such "misinformation" may seem not to comply with the ordinary dictionary 
sense of the word, because
- it may be completely truthful from the informer's viewpoint.
- it may even describe partner's hand, accurately and completely -- but 
clash with partnership agreements.

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richard.hills | 1 Aug 2012 01:20
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Re: misinformation [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]

Grattan Endicott:

>>+=+ I will have a think about misinformation.
>>The boundaries are in the mind. They may
>>encompass in some degree information
>>expressed in a manner that misleads.
>> ~ Grattan ~ +=+

Steve Willner:

>It seems to me a practical approach is first to
>decide what a correct explanation would
>have been, then work out what would have
>happened if the correct explanation had
>been given. If that result is more favorable to
>the side receiving the explanation, rule MI
>and give them the benefit.

Richard Hills:

I agree with Grattan and disagree with Steve.

Max Planck's explanation below is completely
correct, so TD Steve would rule zero MI if I
was Planck's opponent.

But TD Grattan would indeed rule much MI,
since Planck's explanation is "expressed in a
manner that misleads" me, given that Planck's
explanation is in German while I am monoglot
in the English language.

Max Planck (1858 - 1947):
 
Eine neue wissenschaftliche Wahrheit pflegt
sich nicht in der Weise durchzusetzen, daß
ihre Gegner überzeugt werden und sich als
belehrt erklären, sondern vielmehr dadurch,
daß ihre Gegner allmählich aussterben und
daß die heranwachsende Generation von
vornherein mit der Wahrheit vertraut gemacht
ist.


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Jeff Easterson | 29 Jul 2012 20:00
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Re: misinformation

Why not attend one of those classes "they" teach and see for yourself?  
Or do you consider yourself such a superb TD that you needn't bother 
with such pedestrian tools for improvement?  JE

PS:  At such classes you can freely ask questions.

Am 29.07.2012 15:43, schrieb Robert Frick:
> Is there any good way of defining "misinformation" for purposes of the
> laws? Just "information that is wrong"? Do they define it in those classes
> they teach?
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml
>

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Robert Frick | 31 Jul 2012 15:29
Favicon

classes

On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:00:59 -0400, Jeff Easterson <JffEstrsn <at> aol.com>  
wrote:

> Why not attend one of those classes "they" teach and see for yourself?
> Or do you consider yourself such a superb TD that you needn't bother
> with such pedestrian tools for improvement?  JE
>
> PS:  At such classes you can freely ask questions.

Such a class would hardly help in this case. One might correctly guess  
that I foresaw both of the options being given here. A class would only  
give one. This goal in a class is to give one coherent understanding of  
the law. I want to know the variety of interpretations people give and  
whether there is good agreement on a point or not.

I take from your answer that they do not define misinformation in those  
classes.

>
> Am 29.07.2012 15:43, schrieb Robert Frick:
>> Is there any good way of defining "misinformation" for purposes of the
>> laws? Just "information that is wrong"? Do they define it in those  
>> classes
>> they teach?
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blml mailing list
>> Blml <at> rtflb.org
>> http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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--

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Jeff Easterson | 31 Jul 2012 17:15
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Re: classes

See below:

Am 31.07.2012 15:29, schrieb Robert Frick:
> On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:00:59 -0400, Jeff Easterson <JffEstrsn <at> aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Why not attend one of those classes "they" teach and see for yourself?
>> Or do you consider yourself such a superb TD that you needn't bother
>> with such pedestrian tools for improvement?  JE
>>
>> PS:  At such classes you can freely ask questions.
> Such a class would hardly help in this case.
How do you know? Have you ever attended one?
>   One might correctly guess
> that I foresaw both of the options being given here. A class would only
> give one.
How do you know?
>   This goal in a class is to give one coherent understanding of
> the law. I want to know the variety of interpretations people give and
> whether there is good agreement on a point or not.
>
>
> I take from your answer that they do not define misinformation in those
> classes.
I take it from your response that, without ever having been to such a 
class and thus without the faintest idea of what is done there you feel 
capable of knowing what is done and what is not done there. Any logical 
basis for this or is it just arrogance?

Incidentally what you refer to as "classes" are also seminars and 
workshops, at least in Europe.

JE
>
>
>> Am 29.07.2012 15:43, schrieb Robert Frick:
>>> Is there any good way of defining "misinformation" for purposes of the
>>> laws? Just "information that is wrong"? Do they define it in those
>>> classes
>>> they teach?
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Blml mailing list
>>> Blml <at> rtflb.org
>>> http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blml mailing list
>> Blml <at> rtflb.org
>> http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml
>

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Robert Frick | 31 Jul 2012 20:55
Favicon

Re: classes

On Tue, 31 Jul 2012 11:15:07 -0400, Jeff Easterson <JffEstrsn <at> aol.com>  
wrote:

> See below:
>
> Am 31.07.2012 15:29, schrieb Robert Frick:
>> On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:00:59 -0400, Jeff Easterson <JffEstrsn <at> aol.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Why not attend one of those classes "they" teach and see for yourself?
>>> Or do you consider yourself such a superb TD that you needn't bother
>>> with such pedestrian tools for improvement?  JE
>>>
>>> PS:  At such classes you can freely ask questions.
>> Such a class would hardly help in this case.
> How do you know? Have you ever attended one?
>>   One might correctly guess
>> that I foresaw both of the options being given here. A class would only
>> give one.
> How do you know?
>>   This goal in a class is to give one coherent understanding of
>> the law. I want to know the variety of interpretations people give and
>> whether there is good agreement on a point or not.
>>
>>
>> I take from your answer that they do not define misinformation in those
>> classes.
> I take it from your response that, without ever having been to such a
> class and thus without the faintest idea of what is done there you feel
> capable of knowing what is done and what is not done there. Any logical
> basis for this or is it just arrogance?

Well, I asked what they taught in those classes. You didn't answer.  
Perhaps I should have assumed you were too busy insulting me to answer.  
Instead, I assumed that there was no answer. You now have two postings  
where you do not answer the original question.

Bob

>
> Incidentally what you refer to as "classes" are also seminars and
> workshops, at least in Europe.
>
> JE
>>
>>
>>> Am 29.07.2012 15:43, schrieb Robert Frick:
>>>> Is there any good way of defining "misinformation" for purposes of the
>>>> laws? Just "information that is wrong"? Do they define it in those
>>>> classes
>>>> they teach?
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Blml mailing list
>>>> Blml <at> rtflb.org
>>>> http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Blml mailing list
>>> Blml <at> rtflb.org
>>> http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blml mailing list
> Blml <at> rtflb.org
> http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml

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Jeff Easterson | 1 Aug 2012 01:10
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Re: classes

I think it is senseless to continue this correspondence but I might note 
that you didn't answer my questions. In case you missed them I repeat 
(concisely): how do you know what these "classes" offer if you have not 
attended one? JE

Am 31.07.2012 20:55, schrieb Robert Frick:
> On Tue, 31 Jul 2012 11:15:07 -0400, Jeff Easterson <JffEstrsn <at> aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>> See below:
>>
>> Am 31.07.2012 15:29, schrieb Robert Frick:
>>> On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:00:59 -0400, Jeff Easterson <JffEstrsn <at> aol.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why not attend one of those classes "they" teach and see for yourself?
>>>> Or do you consider yourself such a superb TD that you needn't bother
>>>> with such pedestrian tools for improvement?  JE
>>>>
>>>> PS:  At such classes you can freely ask questions.
>>> Such a class would hardly help in this case.
>> How do you know? Have you ever attended one?
>>>    One might correctly guess
>>> that I foresaw both of the options being given here. A class would only
>>> give one.
>> How do you know?
>>>    This goal in a class is to give one coherent understanding of
>>> the law. I want to know the variety of interpretations people give and
>>> whether there is good agreement on a point or not.
>>>
>>>
>>> I take from your answer that they do not define misinformation in those
>>> classes.
>> I take it from your response that, without ever having been to such a
>> class and thus without the faintest idea of what is done there you feel
>> capable of knowing what is done and what is not done there. Any logical
>> basis for this or is it just arrogance?
> Well, I asked what they taught in those classes. You didn't answer.
> Perhaps I should have assumed you were too busy insulting me to answer.
> Instead, I assumed that there was no answer. You now have two postings
> where you do not answer the original question.
>
> Bob
>
>> Incidentally what you refer to as "classes" are also seminars and
>> workshops, at least in Europe.
>>
>> JE
>>>
>>>> Am 29.07.2012 15:43, schrieb Robert Frick:
>>>>> Is there any good way of defining "misinformation" for purposes of the
>>>>> laws? Just "information that is wrong"? Do they define it in those
>>>>> classes
>>>>> they teach?
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Blml mailing list
>>>>> Blml <at> rtflb.org
>>>>> http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Blml mailing list
>>>> Blml <at> rtflb.org
>>>> http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blml mailing list
>> Blml <at> rtflb.org
>> http://lists.rtflb.org/mailman/listinfo/blml
>

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richard.hills | 1 Aug 2012 00:50
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Re: classes [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]

Jeff Easterson:

[snip]
>I take it from your response that, without ever
>having been to such a class and thus without
>the faintest idea of what is done there you feel
>capable of knowing what is done and what is
>not done there. Any logical basis for this or is
>it just arrogance?
>
>Incidentally what you refer to as "classes" are
>also seminars and workshops, at least in
>Europe.
>
>JE

Richard Hills:

The Australian Bridge Directors Association
runs regular seminars and workshops led by
senior national Directors. And useful links can
be found on the ABDA Resources page ->

http://www.abf.com.au/directors/resources.html

There is no logical basis for denying the
existence of human-caused global warming,
just arrogance.

Philip Ball, The Guardian, 31st July 2012:

[snip]
In one sense, Muller is here acting as a model
scientist: demanding strong evidence, damning
distortions in any direction, and most of all,
exemplifying the Royal Society's motto Nullius
in verba, "take no one's word for it". But that's
not necessarily as virtuous as it seems. For one
thing, as the Royal Society's founders
discovered, you have to take someone's word
for some things, since you lack the time and
knowledge to verify everything yourself. And as
one climatologist said, Muller's findings only
"demonstrate once again what scientists have
known with some degree of certainty for nearly
two decades". Wasn't it verging on arrogant to
have so doubted his peers' abilities? There's a
fine line between trusting your own judgment
and assuming everyone else is a blinkered
incompetent.

All the same, Muller's self-confessed volte-
face is commendably frank. It's also unusual.
[snip]


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Tony Musgrove | 1 Aug 2012 09:37
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Re: classes [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]

 

Richard Hills:

The Australian Bridge Directors Association
runs regular seminars and workshops led by
senior national Directors. And useful links can
be found on the ABDA Resources page ->

http://www.abf.com.au/directors/resources.html

There is no logical basis for denying the
existence of human-caused global warming,
just arrogance.

Philip Ball, The Guardian, 31st July 2012:

[snip]
In one sense, Muller is here acting as a model
scientist: demanding strong evidence, damning
distortions in any direction, and most of all,
exemplifying the Royal Society's motto Nullius
in verba, "take no one's word for it". But that's
not necessarily as virtuous as it seems. For one
thing, as the Royal Society's founders
discovered, you have to take someone's word
for some things, since you lack the time and
knowledge to verify everything yourself. And as
one climatologist said, Muller's findings only
"demonstrate once again what scientists have
known with some degree of certainty for nearly
two decades". Wasn't it verging on arrogant to
have so doubted his peers' abilities? There's a
fine line between trusting your own judgment
and assuming everyone else is a blinkered
incompetent.

All the same, Muller's self-confessed volte-
face is commendably frank. It's also unusual.
[snip]

[tony] I may have missed the turn where BLML got involved

in global warming.  Today in the Sydney Morning Herald

Nick Minchin ( a former Australian **cabinet minister** who

makes current US president hopeful Mitt Romney

appear as an intellectual), delivered himself of:

“It would be good to see the Herald expose its readers not

just to the views of latter-day warmists like Muller, but

also to those of Professor Vahrenholt and others who are

increasingly questioning the IPCC hypothesis”.

As an erstwhile scientist, I have been insulted (BLML

thread)  by being called a “global warmist”, no less

than by being called a “metropolitan sophisticate” by

recent Herald columnist Tom Swyzer.  I  think the

latter insult means I am liberal in my views.

Back to my wine,

Cheers

Tony (Sydney)

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Steve Willner | 29 Jul 2012 21:53
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Re: misinformation

On 2012-07-29 9:43 AM, Robert Frick wrote:
> Is there any good way of defining "misinformation" for purposes of the
> laws?

The practical definition is probably "violation of L20F, 40A1b, 40B2a, 
or 40B6a."  (Have I missed any?)

Why does L21B1a refer to L17E?  I could understand a reference to 22B, 
but that's not what's there.
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richard.hills | 30 Jul 2012 01:18
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Re: misinformation [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]

Steve Willner:

>The practical definition is probably "violation
>of L20F, 40A1b, 40B2a, or 40B6a." (Have I
>missed any?)

Richard Hills:

In my opinion Steve is missing key Laws of
fundamental principle.

W. Somerset Maugham (1874 - 1965):

"The most useful thing about a principle is that
it may always be sacrificed to expediency."

Richard Hills:

In my opinion the key Laws which distinguish
non-systemic calls (or non-systemic defensive
plays) from non-systemic explanations are
Laws 40A3, 40C1, 40C2, 75B and 75C.

Steve Willner:

>Why does L21B1a refer to L17E? I could
>understand a reference to 22B, but that's not
>what's there.

Richard Hills:

In my opinion this is a feature, not a bug.

Not only does Law 17E1 cross-reference Law
22, but also Law 17E2 prevents a premature
end to the auction.

But I foolishly believe in a more consistent
numbering of the 2017 Laws (e.g. an
amalgamation of Laws 17 and 22).

Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803 - 1882):

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of
little minds."


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richard.hills | 31 Jul 2012 06:30
Picon

Re: misinformation [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]

Steve Willner:

>The practical definition is probably "violation
>of L20F, 40A1b, 40B2a, or 40B6a." (Have I
>missed any?)

Richard Hills:

In my opinion Steve is missing key clauses of
Law 40 which define a fundamental principle.

W. Somerset Maugham (1874 - 1965):

"The most useful thing about a principle is that
it may always be sacrificed to expediency."

Richard Hills:

In my opinion the key Laws which distinguish
non-systemic calls (or non-systemic defensive
plays) from non-systemic explanations are
Laws 40A3, 40C1 and 40C2.

But the principle laid out in the above three
clauses of Law 40 has been sacrificed to the
expediency of another clause, Law 40B2(d):

"The Regulating Authority may restrict the use
of psychic artificial calls."

Steve Willner:

>Why does L21B1a refer to L17E? I could
>understand a reference to 22B, but that's not
>what's there.

Richard Hills:

Not only does Law 17E1 cross-reference Law
22, but also Law 17E2 prevents a premature
end to the auction.

But I foolishly believe in a more consistent
numbering of the Laws (for example, merging
the 2007 Law 17 and the 2007 Law 22 into a
single 2017 Law in the forthcoming Lawbook).

Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803 - 1882):

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of
little minds."


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policy can be viewed on the department's website at www.immi.gov.au. See:
http://www.immi.gov.au/functional/privacy.htm


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