Game Development - Design

Tom Forsyth | 7 Apr 2003 16:49

RE: FPS console controls

One of the tricks with deadzones is that you make a fairly large deadzone,
but ignore it if the _velocity_ of the stick is above a certain (small)
amount. This is because as sticks get older, where they recenter too gets
very loose. But if the player makes a small movement, they expect that
movement to get through to the game, even if it's inside the deadzone. You
need a tiny bit of deadzone on the velocity to cope with signal jitter, but
it is very small.

This is a really neat trick. It's necessary on the PS2 because the
DualShocks really loosen up over time and the centre position is wildly out
(which is where I saw this originally), but it's also helpful on the other
controllers - small adjustments are really simple to make.

Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Javier Arevalo [mailto:jare <at> pyrostudios.com]
[snip]
>  - Stick dead zone (more hardware issue than software, but both can be
> involved). I got the feeling that the dead zone for stick 
> centering was much
> larger in MoH/PS2 than in Halo, and that it was annoying in MoH when I
> wanted those little adjustments to turns, it just seemed that 
> I had to turn
> the stick too much before turning began, so it took me longer 
> to perform
> little turns.

(Continue reading)

gekido | 5 Apr 2003 01:41

Picon

Re: Re: FPS console controls

>> first person simply does NOT work on a console -
>goldeneye had horrible controls - this endless
>'nudging' that you have to do to try and get the
>cursor centered on someone to shoot them is
>useless.
>
>You sound like a PC Gamer, the goldeneye controls
>were fantastic IMO. 
>Most of your problems were probably related to
>co-ordination of your 
>hands.  If you have not used a gamepad much you
>_will_ obviously find it 
>different to what you are used to, the "old
>keyboard mouse combo".

still doesn't get rid of the endless 'nudging' that you have to do to try and aim at enemies.

i've seen players that spent WAAAAY to much time playing games like golden-eye and medal of honour STILL
having problems with this (in particular).

you simply can not provide the kind of sensitivity or accuracy that a mouse can with the console stick.

but again, apples and oranges.

having auto-lock definitely improves the situation, but also reduces the feeling of 'skill' that the
player gets from personally aiming and taking out the baddies in the game...almost like cheating...

but again, yes i'm a PC gamer - and i've only ever seen the playstation controller.

i haven't even SEEN an xbox outside of a store or xbox booth, let alone played one - but that's a whole

(Continue reading)

gekido | 4 Apr 2003 22:12

Picon

Re: RE: FPS console controls

i have yet to find a single console game that provides even remotely as good of a control scheme as the good old
keyboard mouse combo.

first person simply does NOT work on a console - goldeneye had horrible controls - this endless 'nudging'
that you have to do to try and get the cursor centered on someone to shoot them is useless.

i didn't find medal of honour any better...

you put someone on a console playing the same game against someone on a keyboard and mouse and a pc - and the pc
player will be mopping the floor with the console player...i can guarantee that.

didn't actually play halo, but i can't see how this is any different.  the fatal flaw is in the control scheme
period.  console manufacturers simply created bad controls...

they work for some types of games, driving games, etc but for first person - simply doesn't work.

mike w
www.uber-geek.ca 

>I didn't go into detail on algorithms, but i like
>the Metroid control
>system. It isn't an FPS control system, and the
>game's not an FPS :) I have
>one niggle regarding the interaction of scanning
>and combat, though.
>
>I still reckon the grandaddy is goldeneye :) halo
>worked well, timsplitters
>i've not played much.
>

(Continue reading)

Jan Ekholm | 5 Apr 2003 12:27

Picon

Re: RE: FPS console controls

On Fri, 4 Apr 2003 gekido <at> uber-geek.ca wrote:

>didn't actually play halo, but i can't see how this is any different.  
>the fatal flaw is in the control scheme period.  console manufacturers
>simply created bad controls...

I think that console controllers are excellent. Thinking about the
requirement for a small controller with a lot of functionality and the
need to be able to take a lot of punushment, I think they have succeeded
very well. Who the h*ll would like to sit in your favourite TV couch with
a bulky keyboard and a mouse on the floor just to play some game? Not
doable. Mouse an keyboard are better for a selected few game types, such
as FPS and RTS-like games, but they need so much more *clean* space (for
the mouse to work) so that the combination is useless in front of a TV
(where at least I want to play my games).

--

-- 
  And it came to pass that in time the Great God Om spake unto Brutha,
    the Chosen One: "Psst!"
                                        -- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

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(Continue reading)

J. Grant | 5 Apr 2003 00:41

Re: FPS console controls

Hi,

Had to jump in here.

on the 04/04/03 21:12, gekido <at> uber-geek.ca wrote:
> i have yet to find a single console game that provides even remotely as good of a control scheme as the good
old keyboard mouse combo.
> 
> first person simply does NOT work on a console - goldeneye had horrible controls - this endless 'nudging'
that you have to do to try and get the cursor centered on someone to shoot them is useless.

You sound like a PC Gamer, the goldeneye controls were fantastic IMO. 
Most of your problems were probably related to co-ordination of your 
hands.  If you have not used a gamepad much you _will_ obviously find it 
different to what you are used to, the "old keyboard mouse combo".

First time I used a keyboard + mouse it felt wierd, but sure enough 
after 30mins or so I was loving it.  Try playing an FPS with the mouse 
in your left hand and I am sure it will take you a while to adjust to it 
again.

Cheers

JG

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(Continue reading)

Garett Bass | 4 Apr 2003 23:01

RE: RE: FPS console controls

I think the best way to reproduce mouse-like yaw control on a console would
be to dedicate a single stick to yaw, and return yaw values as an angle. In
this case, whenever x^2+y^2 > 0.8 or so (ie. only near the outer ring of the
stick), dtheta = arctan (y0/x0) - arctan (y1/x1), yaw = yaw + s*dtheta,
where "s" is some variable scalar for sensitivity.  This allows players to
turn and stop on a dime, which is the greatest advantage of the mouse.
Unfortunately, now you need to use another axis entirely for pitch.  Perhaps
pitch and strafe on the second stick?

It was mentioned several times that the pitch control in Halo is less
sensitive than the yaw control.  This seems like a step in the right
direction, but I'd suggest mapping the stick's maximum positive y value to
looking straight up, zero y to looking straight ahead, and maximum negative
y to looking straight down, ie. pitch = y*i*2pi, where "i" is +1 or -1 to
allow invertibility.  Perhaps the axis' granularity is too course to allow
this, providing only a few discrete values between zero and max?

With regard to the conventional, single-axis yaw approach, I'd suggest
raising the axis input to the 3rd or 5th power before feeding it to the
camera control.  This would result in a wide range of sensitive control near
the center of the stick, and maximum turn rate near the extremeties (eg.
0.1^3 = 0.001, 1.0^3 = 1.0).

Once again, this may not be possible due to low input granularity.  Maybe
the analog sticks are not effectively analog as much as they are multiply
digital.  I'd really like to see a dual stick controller that could produce
at least 10 discrete outputs between zero and one in each direction, ie.
0.0, 0.1, 0.2, ...1.0.  While I'm dreaming, how about a console controller
with one stick and one trackball?

(Continue reading)

Brian Hook | 4 Apr 2003 22:28

Re: RE: FPS console controls

>didn't actually play halo, but i can't see how this is any
>different.  the fatal flaw is in the control scheme period.  console
>manufacturers simply created bad controls...

Forgive me for sounding harsh, but given that numerous people have 
lauded Halo's controls -- including hardcore FPS players -- and you 
haven't even seen it, doesn't it seem a little extreme to flat out 
blow it off as "simply doesn't work" when, in fact, it does?

-Hook

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Dan Thompson | 5 Apr 2003 00:06

Re: RE: FPS console controls

Judging from the reactions from everyone I talk to who do both, Console FPS
controls are adequat(sp?) for playing against other entites bound by the
same control scheme. However I have noticed that people who only play FPS on
consoles regard themselves as ultimate when they whip everyone on XBox Live
or what have you, and those who play with a mouse and keyboard consider
themselves ultimate when they mop up in counterstrike. The few times I have
seen crossover where the same person plays extensivly with both schemes,
they say that the mouse and keyboard wins.

However I don't think this thread really meant to go into that debate (even
though I added to it).
From what I hear the Halo style is the best for a console, its just that a
good mousers will in fact mop the floor with the blood of a good console
player.

-Dan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Hook" <hook_l <at> pyrogon.com>
To: <gamedevlists-design <at> lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: RE: [GD-Design] FPS console controls

> >didn't actually play halo, but i can't see how this is any
> >different.  the fatal flaw is in the control scheme period.  console
> >manufacturers simply created bad controls...
>
> Forgive me for sounding harsh, but given that numerous people have
> lauded Halo's controls -- including hardcore FPS players -- and you
> haven't even seen it, doesn't it seem a little extreme to flat out

(Continue reading)

Jamie Fowlston | 7 Apr 2003 12:26

RE: RE: FPS console controls

I think we should be clear, though, that MP _isn't_ an FPS. It's a first
person action adventure, really. Yes, using that control method for a frag
session would be awful; but that's not the type of game it is.

Jamie

-----Original Message-----
From: gamedevlists-design-admin <at> lists.sourceforge.net
[mailto:gamedevlists-design-admin <at> lists.sourceforge.net]On Behalf Of Dan
Thompson
Sent: 04 April 2003 23:06
To: gamedevlists-design <at> lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: RE: [GD-Design] FPS console controls

Judging from the reactions from everyone I talk to who do both, Console FPS
controls are adequat(sp?) for playing against other entites bound by the
same control scheme. However I have noticed that people who only play FPS on
consoles regard themselves as ultimate when they whip everyone on XBox Live
or what have you, and those who play with a mouse and keyboard consider
themselves ultimate when they mop up in counterstrike. The few times I have
seen crossover where the same person plays extensivly with both schemes,
they say that the mouse and keyboard wins.

However I don't think this thread really meant to go into that debate (even
though I added to it).
From what I hear the Halo style is the best for a console, its just that a
good mousers will in fact mop the floor with the blood of a good console
player.

-Dan

(Continue reading)

phil_wilkins | 7 Apr 2003 18:39

Picon

RE: RE: FPS console controls


Jamie:
> I think we should be clear, though, that MP _isn't_ an FPS. It's a first
person action adventure, really. Yes, using that control method for a frag
session would be awful; but that's not the type of game it is.

It's in first person, and your primary interaction with the world, is to
shoot it. It's an FPS.

Cheers,
Phil

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Jamie Fowlston | 7 Apr 2003 18:46

RE: RE: FPS console controls

I think I've spent more time scanning the world than I have shooting at its
inhabitants. There're also significant exploration / puzzle-solving /
platforming elements which are almost entirely absent from any other first
person game I can think of.

So I disagree with you :)

Jamie

-----Original Message-----
From: gamedevlists-design-admin <at> lists.sourceforge.net
[mailto:gamedevlists-design-admin <at> lists.sourceforge.net]On Behalf Of
phil_wilkins <at> playstation.sony.com
Sent: 07 April 2003 17:39
To: gamedevlists-design <at> lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: RE: RE: [GD-Design] FPS console controls

Jamie:
> I think we should be clear, though, that MP _isn't_ an FPS. It's a first
person action adventure, really. Yes, using that control method for a frag
session would be awful; but that's not the type of game it is.

It's in first person, and your primary interaction with the world, is to
shoot it. It's an FPS.

Cheers,
Phil

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(Continue reading)

phil_wilkins | 7 Apr 2003 19:43

Picon

RE: RE: FPS console controls


> I think I've spent more time scanning the world than I have shooting at
its inhabitants. There're also significant exploration / puzzle-solving /
platforming elements which are almost entirely absent from any other first
person game I can think of.

Deus Ex? Thief? Hitman?

> So I disagree with you :)

I find myself with a foot in both camps on this one.

Cheers,
Phil

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Mickael Pointier | 8 Apr 2003 11:56

Picon

Re: RE: FPS console controls

>> I think I've spent more time scanning the world than I have shooting
>> at 
> its inhabitants. There're also significant exploration /
> puzzle-solving / platforming elements which are almost entirely
> absent from any other first person game I can think of.
> 
> Deus Ex? Thief? Hitman?

Can add "No One Live Forever 2" to this list.

    Mickael Pointier

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gekido | 8 Apr 2003 00:11

Picon

Re: RE: RE: FPS console controls

sounds more like design decisions that were made in respect to pace and player motivations, compared to
simple 'presentation' decisions (first person view, etc)

if we create a game where we don't actually REWARD the player with mindless shooting (as if we need more of
that these days) and actually let them enjoy these fantastic gameworlds we create...

semantics really.

i didn't really consider deus ex a fps until the later stages in the game when they just throw impossible
badguys at you...

the rest was pretty RPG, just happened to be first person...

mike w
www.uber-geek.ca 

>
>
>
>> I think I've spent more time scanning the world
>than I have shooting at
>its inhabitants. There're also significant
>exploration / puzzle-solving /
>platforming elements which are almost entirely
>absent from any other first
>person game I can think of.
>
>Deus Ex? Thief? Hitman?
>
>> So I disagree with you :)

(Continue reading)

Troy Gilbert | 7 Apr 2003 22:07

RE: RE: FPS console controls

> I think I've spent more time scanning the world than I have 
> shooting at its

Interestingly, this is exactly what turned me off about the game: scanning.
To me, this a "tedium task" that is best left to computers -- and I would
imagine computers in MP's world would be sufficiently qualified to scan the
room on their own and then let me know about all the interesting stuff. Of
course, then it wouldn't be a "game". Hmph.

I will gladly except, though, that I may be wrong on this point. The
out-pouring of recognition and honours for this title clearly indicate alot
of people think it is particularly good. So, I simply consider myself to
have "missed that boat."

Troy
Developer Relations
Criterion Software
www.csl.com

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(Continue reading)

Jamie Fowlston | 8 Apr 2003 11:42

RE: RE: FPS console controls

Not played those three :) Got myself a copy of Deus Ex, just haven't got
round to playing it yet....

Halo and Goldeneye are both shooters (although both occasionally drift into
driving games, for some strange reason... neither does it well, as far as
i'm concerned), and i've not got a problem with that :) But the pace of MP
is really quite different.

I don't think i can express it any more clearly than that :)

Jamie

-----Original Message-----
From: gamedevlists-design-admin <at> lists.sourceforge.net
[mailto:gamedevlists-design-admin <at> lists.sourceforge.net]On Behalf Of
phil_wilkins <at> playstation.sony.com
Sent: 07 April 2003 18:43
To: gamedevlists-design <at> lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: RE: RE: [GD-Design] FPS console controls

> I think I've spent more time scanning the world than I have shooting at
its inhabitants. There're also significant exploration / puzzle-solving /
platforming elements which are almost entirely absent from any other first
person game I can think of.

Deus Ex? Thief? Hitman?

> So I disagree with you :)

I find myself with a foot in both camps on this one.

(Continue reading)

Tom Forsyth | 4 Apr 2003 17:31

RE: FPS console controls

For reference:

Halo & TS - one stick does look, the other does move. TS wasn't a great
implementation, Halo was. This is essentially the console equivalent of
mouse+WASD on the PC.

Metroid - the stick does move + turn, but press a button and it becomes
move+strafe, press another button and it becomes turn+look up/down. You
cannot look up and down and move at the same time.

Here's the problem.

Metroid has a great control scheme. It's well thought-out, people can pick
it up easily, etc. It's extremely friendly to the casual player.

BUT

If (like me) you are one of the people that has played Halo and become good
at the dual-stick controls, Metroid drives you bonkers. Once you've got the
hang of the dual-stick arrangement, evenrything else feels terrible. Having
to unlearn everything you knew about moving in an FPS environment is
incredibly painful. I almost stopped playing MP because of this, except that
every single other thing about the game was so brilliant that I kept
playing.

I'm now pretty good with the MP controls, and since the game difficulty and
levels are designed around the control scheme, they're not actually a
problem. But even now, it still feels very limiting compared to Halo - you
can't easily move in a different direction to the way you're going. You
can't look up and down and move at the same time. You have to precisely aim

(Continue reading)

phil_wilkins | 5 Apr 2003 01:29

Picon

RE: FPS console controls


Tom:
> If (like me) you are one of the people that has played Halo and become
good at the dual-stick controls, Metroid drives you bonkers.

Restated like this, I would agree. Dual stick, with lock-on, would have
been best for MP. Being able to use the look stick to move the sight
relative to the lock would have been cool. Non-homing weapons were near
useless on fast moving enemies.

Javier:
>After playing with the XBox controller, the PS2 seems too smal and...
light, or weak, or something.

The dead zones on the DualShock are far too large. The actual sticks on the
XBox, and GC are much more accurate, although I dislike the sprung loaded
shoulder buttons on each. Made Metroid physically painful, and GunValkyrie
impossible to actually play, especially when combined with it's use of the
stick buttons. In fact, if you want a pathologically bad FPS control
system, look at GunValkyrie.

Cheers,
Phil

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(Continue reading)

Javier Arevalo | 4 Apr 2003 21:41

Re: FPS console controls

I basically agree with what Tom said (haven't played Metroid Prime yet, just
checked it for a couple minutes at EBX). Halo was the first console FPS
where I was able to forget about the controller and just "think" what I
wanted to do while my hands performed it.

However, it's not just a matter of controller setup. I recalled that TS2 (on
the GC) had the same control system, and I was never in control there, a
couple of enemies moving around me in an open area would be a fair challenge
to shoot at. I just tried Medal of Honor (PS2) with the "advanced"
(sharpshooter?) setup, and once again I found myself missing enemies at
point blank because my control over targetting was not precise enough nad I
would overshoot or undershoot my turns. In Halo I was even able to shoot
moving targets with the sniper rifle.

Now, the question is, why would the same control scheme work well or bad on
these different games (and consoles)?

 - Invert Y axis option is pretty vital, and Halo did a good job of checking
which one the player was better used to. It is also interesting to separate
the invert Y axis option for flying vehicles and ground movement.

 - controller stick "feel". Some controllers have harder springs than
others, or the way your hand grabs it gives the thumb a a better position,
or... essentially an ergonomics issue. After playing with the XBox
controller, the PS2 seems too smal and... light, or weak, or something.

 - Stick dead zone (more hardware issue than software, but both can be
involved). I got the feeling that the dead zone for stick centering was much
larger in MoH/PS2 than in Halo, and that it was annoying in MoH when I
wanted those little adjustments to turns, it just seemed that I had to turn

(Continue reading)

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