Benjamin Keightley | 4 Feb 06:16 2010
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What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

There have been a lot of messages over the past week with references to both
"pimp factors" and "pimp elements." I understand the terms to refer to
features like nasty tokening, tile scarcity, and stock markets like
1830's that encourage destructive/confrontational behavior. The word "pimp"
makes no sense to me in this context; can somebody explain it?

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JC Lawrence | 4 Feb 06:30 2010
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Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?


On 3 Feb 2010, at 21:16 , Benjamin Keightley wrote:

> There have been a lot of messages over the past week with references  
> to both
> "pimp factors" and "pimp elements." I understand the terms to refer to
> features like nasty tokening, tile scarcity, and stock markets like
> 1830's that encourage destructive/confrontational behavior. The word  
> "pimp"
> makes no sense to me in this context; can somebody explain it?

I've had the same confusion and have assumed that the pimping refers  
to decoration of the abstract financial optimisation/race element of  
the game with extraneous dramatic elements that have little to do with  
pure company/financial optimisation.

-- JCL awaits clarification

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Beard, Bruce D. | 4 Feb 13:10 2010

RE: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

I believe Tom uses this term to describe anything a RR or player does to hurt the competition rather than to
make money (i.e. nasty tile lays, tokens met to hinder rather than protect, stock-trashing, etc.)
________________________________
From: 18xx@...
[18xx@...] On Behalf Of Benjamin Keightley [benjamin.keightley@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 12:16 AM
To: 18xx@...
Subject: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

There have been a lot of messages over the past week with references to both
"pimp factors" and "pimp elements." I understand the terms to refer to
features like nasty tokening, tile scarcity, and stock markets like
1830's that encourage destructive/confrontational behavior. The word "pimp"
makes no sense to me in this context; can somebody explain it?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Nick Wedd | 4 Feb 13:20 2010
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Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

In message

<2B398A26C75FE044913FCB8C89FDBAC5019773E4C0A2@...>, 
"Beard, Bruce D." <bruce_d_beard@...> writes
>I believe Tom uses this term to describe anything a RR or player does 
>to hurt the competition rather than to make money (i.e. nasty tile 
>lays, tokens met to hinder rather than protect, stock-trashing, etc.)

Is this use of the word at all usual, or is it peculiar to Tom?

Nick
--

-- 
Nick Wedd    nick@...

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JDL | 4 Feb 15:18 2010
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Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 6:20 AM, Nick Wedd <nick@...> wrote:
> In message
> <2B398A26C75FE044913FCB8C89FDBAC5019773E4C0A2@...>,
> "Beard, Bruce D." <bruce_d_beard@...> writes
>>I believe Tom uses this term to describe anything a RR or player does
>>to hurt the competition rather than to make money (i.e. nasty tile
>>lays, tokens met to hinder rather than protect, stock-trashing, etc.)
>
> Is this use of the word at all usual, or is it peculiar to Tom?
>

I'm going with unusual and peculiar.

--

-- 
JDL

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Beard, Bruce D. | 4 Feb 15:42 2010

RE: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

I think unusual and peculiar describes Tom nicely, but we still love him.
-Bruce
________________________________
From: 18xx@...
[18xx@...] On Behalf Of JDL [jamesludlow@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 9:18 AM
To: 18xx@...
Subject: Re: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 6:20 AM, Nick Wedd
<nick@...<mailto:nick%40maproom.co.uk>> wrote:
> In message
> <2B398A26C75FE044913FCB8C89FDBAC5019773E4C0A2@...<mailto:2B398A26C75FE044913FCB8C89FDBAC5019773E4C0A2%40EXMB4V.mcpsmd.org>>,
> "Beard, Bruce D."
<bruce_d_beard@...<mailto:bruce_d_beard%40mcpsmd.org>> writes
>>I believe Tom uses this term to describe anything a RR or player does
>>to hurt the competition rather than to make money (i.e. nasty tile
>>lays, tokens met to hinder rather than protect, stock-trashing, etc.)
>
> Is this use of the word at all usual, or is it peculiar to Tom?
>

I'm going with unusual and peculiar.

--
JDL

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Steve Thomas | 4 Feb 15:58 2010

Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

Bruce Beard wrote:
> I believe Tom uses this term [pimp[ to describe anything a RR or player 
> does
> to hurt the competition rather than to make money (i.e. nasty tile
> lays, tokens met to hinder rather than protect, stock-trashing, etc.)

Nick Wedd wrote:
> Is this use of the word at all usual, or is it peculiar to Tom?

James Ludlow wrote:
> I'm going with unusual and peculiar.

Bruce Beard wrote:
> I think unusual and peculiar describes Tom nicely, but we still love him.

It is perhaps worth noting that "pimp" comes from an old Anglo-Saxon word 
meaning a helper.

--
Steve Thomas  maisnestce <at> b...

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Neal M Rosen | 4 Feb 16:23 2010
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RE: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

I don't know if the context was special or peculiar to 18xx games, but in
the general world of board-gaming, to pimp a game means to upgrade the bits
that come with a game. The best example of this is in the game, Agricola,
where some owners have replaced the round wood pieces used for vegetables
and other resources with plastic figures that look more like wood, or fish
or grain, etc.  they also replace the objects used to represent people with
wooden "meeple" figures that look more like representations of people than
in the abstract. 

From: 18xx@...
[mailto:18xx@...] On Behalf Of Nick
Wedd
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 7:20 AM
To: 18xx@...
Subject: Re: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

In message 
<2B398A26C75FE044913FCB8C89FDBAC5019773E4C0A2@...
<mailto:2B398A26C75FE044913FCB8C89FDBAC5019773E4C0A2%40EXMB4V.mcpsmd.org> >,

"Beard, Bruce D." <bruce_d_beard@...
<mailto:bruce_d_beard%40mcpsmd.org> > writes
>I believe Tom uses this term to describe anything a RR or player does 
>to hurt the competition rather than to make money (i.e. nasty tile 
>lays, tokens met to hinder rather than protect, stock-trashing, etc.)

Is this use of the word at all usual, or is it peculiar to Tom?

Nick
--

-- 
(Continue reading)

thomas wall hannaford, jr. | 4 Feb 19:33 2010
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Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

Nick, in Chicago we have two players in particular that have made it standard operating procedure to lay
'pimp' track once they're done building for their own majorRRs; I didn't coin the term, which can also be
referred to as 'screw' track......

________________________________
From: Nick Wedd <nick@...>
To: 18xx@...
Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 6:20:03 AM
Subject: Re: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

  
In message 
<2B398A26C75FE044913 FCB8C89FDBAC5019 773E4C0A2 <at>  EXMB4V.mcpsmd. org>, 
"Beard, Bruce D." <bruce_d_beard <at>  mcpsmd.org> writes
>I believe Tom uses this term to describe anything a RR or player does 
>to hurt the competition rather than to make money (i.e. nasty tile 
>lays, tokens met to hinder rather than protect, stock-trashing, etc.)

Is this use of the word at all usual, or is it peculiar to Tom?

Nick
--

-- 
Nick Wedd nick <at> maproom. co.uk

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Jim Knight | 4 Feb 19:39 2010

Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

At least when my track or share price has been interfered with, it was with the express intention of
bettering someones position. Unfortunately just not mine!

Jim

--- On Thu, 4/2/10, thomas wall hannaford, jr. <twall1958@...> wrote:

From: thomas wall hannaford, jr. <twall1958@...>
Subject: Re: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?
To: 18xx@...
Date: Thursday, 4 February, 2010, 18:33

 

    

      
      Nick, in Chicago we have two players in particular that have made it standard operating procedure to lay
'pimp' track once they're done building for their own majorRRs; I didn't coin the term, which can also be
referred to as 'screw' track......

____________ _________ _________ __

From: Nick Wedd <nick <at> maproom. co.uk>

To: 18xx <at> yahoogroups. com

Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 6:20:03 AM

Subject: Re: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?
(Continue reading)

J C Lawrence | 4 Feb 20:26 2010
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Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

One of the locals complains that I rarely ever lay track to help myself. 
   He thinks I should be building more track to increase my income or 
something, anything rather building track to secure a positional 
advantage relative to him.   My response that I don't need to build 
track to increase my income as other players, like him, keep doing that 
for me is not music to his ears.  I sometimes wonder if he remembers the 
day his diesels ran for ~$15/share due to the track I placed, versus my 
diesels running for $90/share due to the track he helpfully placed.

-- JCL

Jim Knight wrote:
> At least when my track or share price has been interfered with, it was with the express intention of
bettering someones position. Unfortunately just not mine!
> 
> Jim
> 
> --- On Thu, 4/2/10, thomas wall hannaford, jr.
<twall1958@...> wrote:
> 
> From: thomas wall hannaford, jr. <twall1958@...>
> Subject: Re: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?
> To: 18xx@...
> Date: Thursday, 4 February, 2010, 18:33

>       Nick, in Chicago we have two players in particular that have made it standard operating procedure to lay
'pimp' track once they're done building for their own majorRRs; I didn't coin the term, which can also be
referred to as 'screw' track......
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> 
(Continue reading)

thomas wall hannaford, jr. | 4 Feb 19:27 2010
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Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

Bruce has pretty much nailed this short and sweet -waddago Bruce!

________________________________
From: "Beard, Bruce D." <bruce_d_beard@...>
To: "18xx@..." <18xx@...>
Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 6:10:11 AM
Subject: RE: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

I believe Tom uses this term to describe anything a RR or player does to hurt the competition rather than to
make money (i.e. nasty tile lays, tokens met to hinder rather than protect, stock-trashing, etc.)
________________________________
From: 18xx@...
[18xx@...] On Behalf Of Benjamin Keightley [benjamin.keightley@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 12:16 AM
To: 18xx@...
Subject: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

There have been a lot of messages over the past week with references to both
"pimp factors" and "pimp elements." I understand the terms to refer to
features like nasty tokening, tile scarcity, and stock markets like
1830's that encourage destructive/confrontational behavior. The word "pimp"
makes no sense to me in this context; can somebody explain it?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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MorganD | 4 Feb 17:13 2010
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Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

Benjamin Keightley <benjamin.keightley <at> ...> wrote:
>
> There have been a lot of messages over the past week with references to both
> "pimp factors" and "pimp elements." I understand the terms to refer to
> features like nasty tokening, tile scarcity, and stock markets like
> 1830's that encourage destructive/confrontational behavior. The word "pimp"
> makes no sense to me in this context; can somebody explain it?

I was just assuming that you could put rims and a spoiler on your 5 train.

Morgan

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thomas wall hannaford, jr. | 4 Feb 19:19 2010
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Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

Benjamin, I've just given a partial list (just the major items really) to Bruce of game elements that I
consider to be of the 'pimp' variety, and when I say 'pimp' I'm using it as slang for those unhistorical
design features that provide mostly artificial mechanisms so that game players can interfere with each other.....

________________________________
From: Benjamin Keightley <benjamin.keightley@...>
To: 18xx@...
Sent: Wed, February 3, 2010 11:16:38 PM
Subject: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

  
There have been a lot of messages over the past week with references to both
"pimp factors" and "pimp elements." I understand the terms to refer to
features like nasty tokening, tile scarcity, and stock markets like
1830's that encourage destructive/ confrontational behavior. The word "pimp"
makes no sense to me in this context; can somebody explain it?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Benjamin Keightley | 4 Feb 19:38 2010
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Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

I apologize if my question wasn't clear. To rephrase: Thomas, is your choice
of the word 'pimp' in any way connected to any other human being's usage of
the word, or after deciding you needed a single word to describe this type
of 18xx feature, did you just close your eyes, open a dictionary, and point
a finger at a random entry?

On Feb 4, 2010, at 1:19 PM, "thomas wall hannaford, jr." <
twall1958@...> wrote:

Benjamin, I've just given a partial list (just the major items really) to
Bruce of game elements that I consider to be of the 'pimp' variety, and when
I say 'pimp' I'm using it as slang for those unhistorical design features
that provide mostly artificial mechanisms so that game players can interfere
with each other.....

________________________________
From: Benjamin Keightley
<benjamin.keightley@...<benjamin.keightley%40gmail.com>
>
To: 18xx@... <18xx%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, February 3, 2010 11:16:38 PM
Subject: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

There have been a lot of messages over the past week with references to both
"pimp factors" and "pimp elements." I understand the terms to refer to
features like nasty tokening, tile scarcity, and stock markets like
1830's that encourage destructive/ confrontational behavior. The word "pimp"
makes no sense to me in this context; can somebody explain it?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(Continue reading)

mpcoyne | 5 Feb 01:08 2010
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Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?


I think now that Tom has explained his meaning, it falls within a fairly normal slang usage of the word pimp in
America - and is based on a sarcastic interpretation of the original meaning of "helper." If you lay track
which is unhelpful in order to obstruct my RR development, then you have "helped" me in much the same way
that the guy at the bus stop has "helped" a runaway teenager start to earn a living. Especially since such a
tile lay is often accompanied by gleeful comments such as, "Here, I don't need anymore track for my run, let
me help you out!"

Considering that the word has already transformed from 'helper" to "manager of prostitutes" to a verb
meaning "to accessorize and enhance with bling", I'm not sure it is fair to reject Tom's usage.

-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Keightley <benjamin.keightley@...>
To: 18xx@... <18xx@...>
Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 1:38 pm
Subject: Re: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

I apologize if my question wasn't clear. To rephrase: Thomas, is your choice
f the word 'pimp' in any way connected to any other human being's usage of
he word, or after deciding you needed a single word to describe this type
f 18xx feature, did you just close your eyes, open a dictionary, and point
 finger at a random entry?
On Feb 4, 2010, at 1:19 PM, "thomas wall hannaford, jr." <
wall1958@...> wrote:

Benjamin, I've just given a partial list (just the major items really) to
ruce of game elements that I consider to be of the 'pimp' variety, and when
 say 'pimp' I'm using it as slang for those unhistorical design features
hat provide mostly artificial mechanisms so that game players can interfere
ith each other.....
(Continue reading)

John A. Tamplin | 5 Feb 01:31 2010

Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 7:08 PM, <mpcoyne@...> wrote:

> I think now that Tom has explained his meaning, it falls within a fairly
> normal slang usage of the word pimp in America - and is based on a sarcastic
> interpretation of the original meaning of "helper." If you lay track which
> is unhelpful in order to obstruct my RR development, then you have "helped"
> me in much the same way that the guy at the bus stop has "helped" a runaway
> teenager start to earn a living. Especially since such a tile lay is often
> accompanied by gleeful comments such as, "Here, I don't need anymore track
> for my run, let me help you out!"
>
> Considering that the word has already transformed from 'helper" to "manager
> of prostitutes" to a verb meaning "to accessorize and enhance with bling",
> I'm not sure it is fair to reject Tom's usage.

I have never heard, before this thread, pimp used to describe a helper.  As
the point of language is communication, it hardly seems worthwhile to use
made-up meanings for words if you expect anyone else to understand them.

--

-- 
John A. Tamplin

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Benjamin Keightley | 5 Feb 01:36 2010
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Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

I think I have a good guess, and since Thomas is refusing to give a straight
answer, guesses might be all we have to go by:

A "pimp" feature in 18xx is one that enables a player to treat companies
like his bitches.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 7:31 PM, John A. Tamplin <jat@...> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 7:08 PM, <mpcoyne@... <mpcoyne%40aol.com>>
> wrote:
>
> > I think now that Tom has explained his meaning, it falls within a fairly
> > normal slang usage of the word pimp in America - and is based on a
> sarcastic
> > interpretation of the original meaning of "helper." If you lay track
> which
> > is unhelpful in order to obstruct my RR development, then you have
> "helped"
> > me in much the same way that the guy at the bus stop has "helped" a
> runaway
> > teenager start to earn a living. Especially since such a tile lay is
> often
> > accompanied by gleeful comments such as, "Here, I don't need anymore
> track
> > for my run, let me help you out!"
> >
> > Considering that the word has already transformed from 'helper" to
> "manager
(Continue reading)

thomas wall hannaford, jr. | 5 Feb 05:34 2010
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Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

Benjamin, I've given the answer -sorry if you don't like it......

________________________________
From: Benjamin Keightley <benjamin.keightley@...>
To: 18xx@...
Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 6:36:50 PM
Subject: Re: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

I think I have a good guess, and since Thomas is refusing to give a straight
answer, guesses might be all we have to go by:

A "pimp" feature in 18xx is one that enables a player to treat companies
like his bitches.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 7:31 PM, John A. Tamplin <jat@...> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 7:08 PM, <mpcoyne@... <mpcoyne%40aol.com>>
> wrote:
>
> > I think now that Tom has explained his meaning, it falls within a fairly
> > normal slang usage of the word pimp in America - and is based on a
> sarcastic
> > interpretation of the original meaning of "helper." If you lay track
> which
> > is unhelpful in order to obstruct my RR development, then you have
> "helped"
> > me in much the same way that the guy at the bus stop has "helped" a
> runaway
(Continue reading)

thomas wall hannaford, jr. | 5 Feb 05:43 2010
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Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

Here's an online dictionary with the most comprehensive description of the word 'pimp' that I can
currently find:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pimp

It comes close to documenting my slang usage ('to exploit') but not quite as far as I think should be out there......

________________________________
From: John A. Tamplin <jat@...>
To: 18xx@...
Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 6:31:07 PM
Subject: Re: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

  
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 7:08 PM, <mpcoyne <at> aol. com> wrote:

> I think now that Tom has explained his meaning, it falls within a fairly
> normal slang usage of the word pimp in America - and is based on a sarcastic
> interpretation of the original meaning of "helper." If you lay track which
> is unhelpful in order to obstruct my RR development, then you have "helped"
> me in much the same way that the guy at the bus stop has "helped" a runaway
> teenager start to earn a living. Especially since such a tile lay is often
> accompanied by gleeful comments such as, "Here, I don't need anymore track
> for my run, let me help you out!"
>
> Considering that the word has already transformed from 'helper" to "manager
> of prostitutes" to a verb meaning "to accessorize and enhance with bling",
> I'm not sure it is fair to reject Tom's usage.

I have never heard, before this thread, pimp used to describe a helper.  As
(Continue reading)

John A. Tamplin | 5 Feb 20:56 2010

Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 11:43 PM, thomas wall hannaford, jr. <
twall1958@...> wrote:

> Here's an online dictionary with the most comprehensive description of the
> word 'pimp' that I can currently find:
>
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pimp
>
> It comes close to documenting my slang usage ('to exploit') but not quite
> as far as I think should be out there......
>

It has no entry for use as an adjective, so I still don't see how that
explains your "pimp track" or "pimp features" usage.

Send them email so you can get them to correct their obvious mistake.

--

-- 
John A. Tamplin

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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thomas wall hannaford, jr. | 5 Feb 23:40 2010
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Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

Well I've given my usage, but you don't like it; gee!

But looking at the definitions that cropped up, I see that a 'pimp' is "a despicable person" so used as a verb
this would be "to act despicably" -I REALLY LIKE THIS!

There's also a definition that to 'pimp' is to 'exploit'; now you look up 'exploit' and you see that one of its
definitions is "to make use of selfishly or unethically" -I ALSO REALLY LIKE THIS!

What's really cool (to me) is that the etymology of both words show roots in the French language, and as we
know the French are culturally sophisticated, racy, and on the cutting edge -using these kind of words
makes me feel good, so that even as an 'old fart' I'm THERE, man!

________________________________
From: John A. Tamplin <jat@...>
To: 18xx@...
Sent: Fri, February 5, 2010 1:56:04 PM
Subject: Re: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

  
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 11:43 PM, thomas wall hannaford, jr. <
twall1958 <at> yahoo. com> wrote:

> Here's an online dictionary with the most comprehensive description of the
> word 'pimp' that I can currently find:
>
> http://dictionary. reference. com/browse/ pimp
>
> It comes close to documenting my slang usage ('to exploit') but not quite
> as far as I think should be out there......
>
(Continue reading)

J C Lawrence | 4 Feb 20:52 2010
Picon
Picon
Picon

Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

thomas wall hannaford, jr. wrote:
> Benjamin, I've just given a partial list (just the major items really) to Bruce of game elements that I
consider to be of the 'pimp' variety, and when I say 'pimp' I'm using it as slang for those unhistorical
design features that provide mostly artificial mechanisms so that game players can interfere with each other.....

Surely the larger ahistoricity is the degree of collusion, track-sharing 
and coordination between companies that happens in the 18xx.

-- JCL

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thomas wall hannaford, jr. | 4 Feb 21:39 2010
Picon

Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

Not necessarily......

If each player is a RailRoadTycoon (RRT as it were), then all the companies under their control comprise the
system/network/empire that they are assembling (the activities of each RR would then be coordinated,
and act in collusion with their siblings).

The use of track by multiple RRs might be justified as considering them 'routes' or 'corridors' that
contain multiple RR track lines that the map scale doesn't allow to be shown individually.

________________________________
From: J C Lawrence <claw@...>
To: 18xx@...
Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 1:52:33 PM
Subject: Re: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

  
thomas wall hannaford, jr. wrote:
> Benjamin, I've just given a partial list (just the major items really) to Bruce of game elements that I
consider to be of the 'pimp' variety, and when I say 'pimp' I'm using it as slang for those unhistorical
design features that provide mostly artificial mechanisms so that game players can interfere with each other.....

Surely the larger ahistoricity is the degree of collusion, track-sharing 
and coordination between companies that happens in the 18xx.

-- JCL

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

(Continue reading)

daveberry33 | 4 Feb 21:48 2010
Picon

Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

Well, the original 18XX was 1829, set in Britain.  Two points apply.  First, British railway companies did
indeed pay to use each other's track, run joint services, and similar collusions, while of course
engaging in cut-throat competition on other parts of the network.  Second, 1829 has several track
elements, such as O-O tiles, which specifically keep routes separated.  Many recent games seem to have
dropped this sort of tile, which perhaps leads to more track sharing than in the original game?

Not to mention survey parties...

Dave.

--- In 18xx@..., J C Lawrence <claw <at> ...> wrote:
>
> thomas wall hannaford, jr. wrote:
> > Benjamin, I've just given a partial list (just the major items really) to Bruce of game elements that I
consider to be of the 'pimp' variety, and when I say 'pimp' I'm using it as slang for those unhistorical
design features that provide mostly artificial mechanisms so that game players can interfere with each other.....
> 
> Surely the larger ahistoricity is the degree of collusion, track-sharing 
> and coordination between companies that happens in the 18xx.
> 
> -- JCL
>

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Tim Franklin | 4 Feb 20:30 2010

RE: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

> Nick, in Chicago we have two players in 
> particular that have made it standard operating 
> procedure to lay 'pimp' track once they're done 
> building for their own majorRRs; I didn't coin the 
> term, which can also be referred to as 'screw' 
> track......

Ah, that's verging on making sense now - track that adds nothing to your position, in the same way under-body
neons and big rims add nothing to your car?

And by extension, any game feature that adds nothing to historical simulationism (or is it a more broad
'adds nothing to the game')?

I can see why people have been a little baffled by the choice of term though...

Regards,
Tim.

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J C Lawrence | 4 Feb 20:48 2010
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Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

Tim Franklin wrote:

> Ah, that's verging on making sense now - track that adds nothing to your position, in the same way
under-body neons and big rims add nothing to your car?

That would have to be "...nothing to your position except relative to 
other players..." as "screw track" (or "tragic track" as we call it 
here) can most certainly do considerable for a player's relative 
position.  And, there's a clear divide on this angle.

Some players look at games as almost a gentleman's race: they get out 
there and try their best and the best man hopefully wins, with 
handshakes and back-claps all-round afterward.  Other players approach 
games, especially the 18xx, as survival challenges with only delta 
mattering.  They're not constructive, they're happy to play 
scorched-earth if that helps them, and they're happy to win with a score 
of $1...just so long as everyone else has less.  As player-types, they 
don't mix well.

FWLIW this is one of the tensions in our local group.  We have 
constructive players and we have delta players, and the constructive 
players are getting pissed off by constantly being foiled, balked and 
frustrated by the delta players.  They want happier games, not games in 
which the players struggle to survive and barely endure until the end. 
They want to be able to do something good, damnit, not just fight 
(seemingly) constant oppression.  The delta players just want to come 
out on top.

-- JCL

(Continue reading)

Benjamin Keightley | 4 Feb 22:07 2010
Picon

Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

Let me try to extract this information in a third way.

Does anybody know the etymology of the word "pimp" as used by Thomas in
reference to 18xx features?

Possible answers:

1. "Pimp" is derived from the "pimp my ride" usage of the word.
Justification: trashing your stock makes me feel good, does not make me any
wealthier, and makes you feel bad in the same sense that putting hydraulics
on my car makes me feel good, does not make me any wealthier, and annoys you
when we are driving next to each other in slow traffic.

2. "Pimp" is derived from the occupation. Justification: prostitution is a
hostile and spiteful industry, and rival pimps might set fire to one
another's property and spread bad rumors about which STDs one might contract
by using a competing whore, in the same sense that one might lay hostile
track or trash someone else's stock.

2a. "Pimp" is derived from the occupation. Alternate justification: pimps
have a reputation for treating their bitches poorly, and if one wants to
consider a company as analogous to a hooker, hostile track lays and
aggressive tokening could be thought of as analogous to the physical and
emotional abuse women suffer at the hands of their managers.

3. ?????

None of my suggestions strike me as terribly coherent but I am at a genuine
loss here. Does anybody have any insight into why this word was selected?

(Continue reading)

Benjamin Keightley | 4 Feb 22:15 2010
Picon

Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

In completely unrelated news, I'm working on a new design where players
represent pimps and operate prostitution rings. It's set in Baltimore or
Bangkok. At the beginning of the game, crates full of Russian girls go up
for auction--they'll make their pimps a bunch of money, but they're too
doped up to last very long so you'll want to suck as much cash as possible
from them and then bury them in a construction site somewhere. Most of the
game focuses on turf wars and bitch management--as time goes on, the
corrupting influence of television, the Jonas Brothers, and Juicy Couture
produces sex-crazed US girls able to turn many more tricks in an evening
than their predecessors. When the 3rd generation whores go on the market,
all the first-gen girls get canned, 'cause ain't nobody want yo shriveled
ass anymore. The working title is 18HO.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Benjamin Keightley <
benjamin.keightley@...> wrote:

> Let me try to extract this information in a third way.
>
> Does anybody know the etymology of the word "pimp" as used by Thomas in
> reference to 18xx features?
>
> Possible answers:
>
> 1. "Pimp" is derived from the "pimp my ride" usage of the word.
> Justification: trashing your stock makes me feel good, does not make me any
> wealthier, and makes you feel bad in the same sense that putting hydraulics
> on my car makes me feel good, does not make me any wealthier, and annoys you
> when we are driving next to each other in slow traffic.
>
> 2. "Pimp" is derived from the occupation. Justification: prostitution is a
(Continue reading)

Tim Franklin | 4 Feb 23:55 2010

Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

On 04/02/2010 21:15, Benjamin Keightley wrote:
> The working title is 18HO.

There are some prior developments on this theme that you might want to 
check out:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeksearch.php?action=search&objecttype=boardgame&q=pimp&B1=Go

I seem to remember that this one in particular:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/15064/pimp-the-backhanding

caused a fairly high degree of moral outrage, which I guess is the 
primary measure of success in making a game on this topic.

Regards,
Tim.

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Benjamin Keightley | 5 Feb 00:14 2010
Picon

Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

If I recall correctly, Pimp: The Backhanding was criticized primarily for
its lighthearted treatment of a very serious subject. I assure you that my
18HO contains no humor whatsoever: anyone who thinks there is something
'funny' about tracking the volatile reputations of competing stables of
hookers on a 2-dimensional Pimp Matrix is probably not mature enough to
appreciate the strategic challenges of this title, so I imagine its audience
will be both self-selecting and extremely sophisticated.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Tim Franklin <tim@...> wrote:

>
>
> On 04/02/2010 21:15, Benjamin Keightley wrote:
> > The working title is 18HO.
>
> There are some prior developments on this theme that you might want to
> check out:
>
>
> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeksearch.php?action=search&objecttype=boardgame&q=pimp&B1=Go
>
> I seem to remember that this one in particular:
>
> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/15064/pimp-the-backhanding
>
> caused a fairly high degree of moral outrage, which I guess is the
> primary measure of success in making a game on this topic.
>
> Regards,
> Tim.
(Continue reading)

Beard, Bruce D. | 5 Feb 00:23 2010

RE: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

YO!

________________________________________
From: 18xx@...
[18xx@...] On Behalf Of Benjamin Keightley [benjamin.keightley@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 6:14 PM
To: 18xx@...
Subject: Re: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

If I recall correctly, Pimp: The Backhanding was criticized primarily for
its lighthearted treatment of a very serious subject. I assure you that my
18HO contains no humor whatsoever: anyone who thinks there is something
'funny' about tracking the volatile reputations of competing stables of
hookers on a 2-dimensional Pimp Matrix is probably not mature enough to
appreciate the strategic challenges of this title, so I imagine its audience
will be both self-selecting and extremely sophisticated.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Tim Franklin <tim@...> wrote:

>
>
> On 04/02/2010 21:15, Benjamin Keightley wrote:
> > The working title is 18HO.
>
> There are some prior developments on this theme that you might want to
> check out:
>
>
> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeksearch.php?action=search&objecttype=boardgame&q=pimp&B1=Go
>
(Continue reading)

thomas wall hannaford, jr. | 5 Feb 01:12 2010
Picon

Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

This reminds me; one of the fellows in our Chicago group enjoys designing games that are rather non-PC
(politically correct).

In particular he has one where each player is a lower-class scumbag who is wandering around looking to
'score' (acquire) money, drugs, etc. without getting killed (murdered, over-dosing, etc.); the winner
is the player that is still alive with the most 'goodies'.

I think this game system could be utilized (slightly modified) for train games as well as in many historical situations......

________________________________
From: Benjamin Keightley <benjamin.keightley@...>
To: 18xx@...
Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 5:14:17 PM
Subject: Re: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

If I recall correctly, Pimp: The Backhanding was criticized primarily for
its lighthearted treatment of a very serious subject. I assure you that my
18HO contains no humor whatsoever: anyone who thinks there is something
'funny' about tracking the volatile reputations of competing stables of
hookers on a 2-dimensional Pimp Matrix is probably not mature enough to
appreciate the strategic challenges of this title, so I imagine its audience
will be both self-selecting and extremely sophisticated.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Tim Franklin <tim@...> wrote:

>
>
> On 04/02/2010 21:15, Benjamin Keightley wrote:
> > The working title is 18HO.
>
(Continue reading)

Beard, Bruce D. | 5 Feb 01:47 2010

RE: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

Gee, my three year old nieces birthday is coming up...how much does this game cost?

-Bruce
________________________________
From: 18xx@...
[18xx@...] On Behalf Of thomas wall hannaford, jr. [twall1958@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 7:12 PM
To: 18xx@...
Subject: Re: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

This reminds me; one of the fellows in our Chicago group enjoys designing games that are rather non-PC
(politically correct).

In particular he has one where each player is a lower-class scumbag who is wandering around looking to
'score' (acquire) money, drugs, etc. without getting killed (murdered, over-dosing, etc.); the winner
is the player that is still alive with the most 'goodies'.

I think this game system could be utilized (slightly modified) for train games as well as in many historical situations......

________________________________
From: Benjamin Keightley <benjamin.keightley@...<mailto:benjamin.keightley%40gmail.com>>
To: 18xx@...<mailto:18xx%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 5:14:17 PM
Subject: Re: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

If I recall correctly, Pimp: The Backhanding was criticized primarily for
its lighthearted treatment of a very serious subject. I assure you that my
18HO contains no humor whatsoever: anyone who thinks there is something
'funny' about tracking the volatile reputations of competing stables of
hookers on a 2-dimensional Pimp Matrix is probably not mature enough to
(Continue reading)

thomas wall hannaford, jr. | 5 Feb 05:21 2010
Picon

Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

Bruce, although kids grow up much faster today than in 'older' days, I'd rather let your niece keep her
innocence as long as possible.

Hopefully her parents don't let her watch the CW network!

But try to find her a copy of that 'Thomas The Tank Engine' game -that's probably a safe bet.....

________________________________
From: "Beard, Bruce D." <bruce_d_beard@...>
To: "18xx@..." <18xx@...>
Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 6:47:22 PM
Subject: RE: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

Gee, my three year old nieces birthday is coming up...how much does this game cost?

-Bruce
________________________________
From: 18xx@...
[18xx@...] On Behalf Of thomas wall hannaford, jr. [twall1958@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 7:12 PM
To: 18xx@...
Subject: Re: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

This reminds me; one of the fellows in our Chicago group enjoys designing games that are rather non-PC
(politically correct).

In particular he has one where each player is a lower-class scumbag who is wandering around looking to
'score' (acquire) money, drugs, etc. without getting killed (murdered, over-dosing, etc.); the winner
is the player that is still alive with the most 'goodies'.

(Continue reading)

Beard, Bruce D. | 5 Feb 00:19 2010

RE: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

I always said Steam over Holland should be called 18HO and modified accordingly!

-Bruce

________________________________________
From: 18xx@...
[18xx@...] On Behalf Of Benjamin Keightley [benjamin.keightley@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 4:15 PM
To: 18xx@...
Subject: Re: [18xx] What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

In completely unrelated news, I'm working on a new design where players
represent pimps and operate prostitution rings. It's set in Baltimore or
Bangkok. At the beginning of the game, crates full of Russian girls go up
for auction--they'll make their pimps a bunch of money, but they're too
doped up to last very long so you'll want to suck as much cash as possible
from them and then bury them in a construction site somewhere. Most of the
game focuses on turf wars and bitch management--as time goes on, the
corrupting influence of television, the Jonas Brothers, and Juicy Couture
produces sex-crazed US girls able to turn many more tricks in an evening
than their predecessors. When the 3rd generation whores go on the market,
all the first-gen girls get canned, 'cause ain't nobody want yo shriveled
ass anymore. The working title is 18HO.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Benjamin Keightley <
benjamin.keightley@...> wrote:

> Let me try to extract this information in a third way.
>
> Does anybody know the etymology of the word "pimp" as used by Thomas in
(Continue reading)

Rick Westerman | 4 Feb 22:46 2010
Picon

Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

Benjamin Keightley wrote:
> Let me try to extract this information in a third way.
>
> Does anybody know the etymology of the word "pimp" as used by Thomas in
> reference to 18xx features?
>
>   
   I have been trying to track the etymology down -- and believe me 
doing this at work is not recommended! -- but can not find a good 
reference.   So I can see why people are confused.  Especially the 
non-Chicagoans.   On the other hand it was obvious to me what Thomas 
meant -- basically 'screw over' (a term that  itself may not clear to 
non-Americans).   And I don't even play with him nor his crowd plus live 
in a little ol' midwestern town that would blush to hear such language.
> 2a. "Pimp" is derived from the occupation. Alternate justification: pimps
> have a reputation for treating their bitches poorly, ...
   That is probably the best guess.   Along the line that the other 
players are the bitches and need to be put into place.

   But we probably need are more erudite person like Steve or David to 
chime in here. 

   Or maybe Thomas can ask the other people he plays with where they 
came up with the term.

   Ah, the English language.  So flexible.  So obtuse.

--

-- 
Rick Westerman westerman@...

(Continue reading)

John A. Tamplin | 4 Feb 23:19 2010

Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

Personally I really hate the barflog tiles.

-- 
John A. Tamplin

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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breno_k | 5 Feb 02:24 2010
Picon

Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

Barflog?

--- In 18xx@..., "John A. Tamplin" <jat <at> ...> wrote:
>
> Personally I really hate the barflog tiles.
> 
> -- 
> John A. Tamplin
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Steve Thomas | 5 Feb 02:38 2010

Re: Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

breno_k wrote:

> Barflog?

It's not often I find on this list a word I don't know, so I looked it up. 
It's a lump of vomit (barf) in the shape of a log.  (I had spotted that 
possibility, but thought bar-flog a much more probable parse.  Shows how 
much I know.)  I don't recall ever being in need of a word to describe this 
phenomenon, but should that need arise in the future I will be appropriately 
prepared.

--
Steve Thomas  maisnestce <at> b...

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John A. Tamplin | 5 Feb 03:18 2010

Re: Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 8:24 PM, breno_k <breno_k@...> wrote:

> Barflog?

I was feeling left out not having my own made-up meaning for a word.

-- 
John A. Tamplin

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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breno_k | 5 Feb 03:25 2010
Picon

Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

So the barflog tiles are the OO tiles? I quite like them.

--- In 18xx@..., "John A. Tamplin" <jat <at> ...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 8:24 PM, breno_k <breno_k <at> ...> wrote:
> 
> > Barflog?
> 
> 
> I was feeling left out not having my own made-up meaning for a word.
> 
> -- 
> John A. Tamplin
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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John A. Tamplin | 5 Feb 03:28 2010

Re: Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:25 PM, breno_k <breno_k@...> wrote:

> So the barflog tiles are the OO tiles? I quite like them.

No, the multicolor ones -- they are a pain to lay out for die-cutting.

-- 
John A. Tamplin

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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John David Galt | 5 Feb 04:01 2010
Picon
Picon

Re: What does "pimp" mean in the context of 18xx features?

Benjamin Keightley wrote:
> 1. "Pimp" is derived from the "pimp my ride" usage of the word.

I agree that far, but I interpret the meaning the way Neal Rosen did:
"pimping" does not describe any kind of play, but means remodeling your
game with flashy-looking parts that don't perform any useful function
beyond what the old ones did.

> 2. "Pimp" is derived from the occupation. Justification: prostitution is a
> hostile and spiteful industry, and rival pimps might set fire to one
> another's property and spread bad rumors about which STDs one might contract
> by using a competing whore, in the same sense that one might lay hostile
> track or trash someone else's stock.

Only true where prostitution is illegal; I'd translate the word as
"slave owner" rather than "manager".  The legal "houses" in Nevada have
managers, not pimps, and don't engage in warfare with one another.

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Gmane