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Tom Low-Shang | 24 May 2012 02:34

toe and camber

<section name="Front Right Wheel">
    <attnum name="ride height" unit="mm" val="55"/>
    <attnum name="toe" unit="deg" val="-0.1"/>
    <attnum name="camber" unit="deg" val="0"/>
</section>

<section name="Front Left Wheel">
    <attnum name="ride height" unit="mm" val="55"/>
    <attnum name="toe" unit="deg" val="0.1"/>
    <attnum name="camber" unit="deg" val="0"/>
</section>

Is the setup above toe-in or toe-out?

Is negative camber (wheel inclined inward) a negative or positive angle
in SD?  Are left and right camber values also opposite sign like toe
angles?

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Cell 416 857 7013
Skype tomlowshang

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simon | 24 May 2012 02:59

Re: toe and camber

> <section name="Front Right Wheel">
>     <attnum name="ride height" unit="mm" val="55"/>
>     <attnum name="toe" unit="deg" val="-0.1"/>
>     <attnum name="camber" unit="deg" val="0"/>
> </section>
>
> <section name="Front Left Wheel">
>     <attnum name="ride height" unit="mm" val="55"/>
>     <attnum name="toe" unit="deg" val="0.1"/>
>     <attnum name="camber" unit="deg" val="0"/>
> </section>
>
> Is the setup above toe-in or toe-out?
>
> Is negative camber (wheel inclined inward) a negative or positive angle
> in SD?  Are left and right camber values also opposite sign like toe
> angles?
>
>
>

>From what I remember it's 'toe left', ie +ve turns both wheels the same way.

Easy to check by setting silly values,
Simon

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Tom Low-Shang | 24 May 2012 05:26

Re: toe and camber

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 08:59:24PM -0400, simon@... wrote:
> > <section name="Front Right Wheel"> <attnum name="ride height"
> > unit="mm" val="55"/> <attnum name="toe" unit="deg" val="-0.1"/>
> > <attnum name="camber" unit="deg" val="0"/> </section>
> >
> > <section name="Front Left Wheel"> <attnum name="ride height"
> > unit="mm" val="55"/> <attnum name="toe" unit="deg" val="0.1"/>
> > <attnum name="camber" unit="deg" val="0"/> </section>
> >
> > Is the setup above toe-in or toe-out?
> >
> > Is negative camber (wheel inclined inward) a negative or positive
> > angle in SD?  Are left and right camber values also opposite sign
> > like toe angles?
> 
> >From what I remember it's 'toe left', ie +ve turns both wheels the
> >same way.

I should have mentioned that the above XML was cut from the official
simplix mp5-fmc setup, so one side must have opposite sign.

> Easy to check by setting silly values,

That's too obvious. :)

After posting I checked the camber setup on several cars and they have the
same sign on both left and right sides.

> Simon
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Tom Low-Shang | 24 May 2012 22:40

Re: toe and camber

After some experimentation I answered my own questions.

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 08:34:33PM -0400, Tom Low-Shang wrote:
> <section name="Front Right Wheel">
>     <attnum name="ride height" unit="mm" val="55"/>
>     <attnum name="toe" unit="deg" val="-0.1"/>
>     <attnum name="camber" unit="deg" val="0"/>
> </section>
> 
> <section name="Front Left Wheel">
>     <attnum name="ride height" unit="mm" val="55"/>
>     <attnum name="toe" unit="deg" val="0.1"/>
>     <attnum name="camber" unit="deg" val="0"/>
> </section>
> 
> Is the setup above toe-in or toe-out?

It is toe-out.

> 
> Is negative camber (wheel inclined inward) a negative or positive
> angle in SD?

Negative camber is a negative angle.

> Are left and right camber values also opposite sign like toe angles?

Camber has same sign on both left and right sides.

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simon | 24 May 2012 22:53

Re: toe and camber


>> <section name="Front Right Wheel">
>>     <attnum name="ride height" unit="mm" val="55"/>
>>     <attnum name="toe" unit="deg" val="-0.1"/>
>>     <attnum name="camber" unit="deg" val="0"/>
>> </section>
>>
>> <section name="Front Left Wheel">
>>     <attnum name="ride height" unit="mm" val="55"/>
>>     <attnum name="toe" unit="deg" val="0.1"/>
>>     <attnum name="camber" unit="deg" val="0"/>
>> </section>
>>
>> Is the setup above toe-in or toe-out?
>
> It is toe-out.

Note: The above example has different signs for the 'toe'. I think that
+ve number means 'toe to left' for both the left and right wheel.

Simon

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Tom Low-Shang | 25 May 2012 01:45

Re: toe and camber

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 04:53:10PM -0400, simon@... wrote:
> 
> >> <section name="Front Right Wheel">
> >>     <attnum name="ride height" unit="mm" val="55"/>
> >>     <attnum name="toe" unit="deg" val="-0.1"/>
> >>     <attnum name="camber" unit="deg" val="0"/>
> >> </section>
> >>
> >> <section name="Front Left Wheel">
> >>     <attnum name="ride height" unit="mm" val="55"/>
> >>     <attnum name="toe" unit="deg" val="0.1"/>
> >>     <attnum name="camber" unit="deg" val="0"/>
> >> </section>
> >>
> >> Is the setup above toe-in or toe-out?
> >
> > It is toe-out.
> 
> Note: The above example has different signs for the 'toe'. I think that
> +ve number means 'toe to left' for both the left and right wheel.

That's my understanding as well. The negative angle on the right wheel
means it is "toe to right" in your terms, or toe-out since both wheels
point outwards. For toe-in, its negative toe on the left wheel and
positive toe for the right.

But why does camber follow different rules with same sign in both left
and right sides?

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kilo aka Gabor Kmetyko | 30 May 2012 11:19
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Re: toe and camber

Hi

I am not the greatest of car setup creators, however I've got a
feeling that it would help if applying toe -0.1 would mean "toe in"
for both sides, similarly positive values would mean "toe out",
regardless of the side? So it'd go "toe in" and "toe out" versus "toe
left" or "toe right".
Isn't this the convention for toe & camber in real life?

cheers
kilo
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On 25 May 2012 01:45, Tom Low-Shang <tom@...> wrote:
> On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 04:53:10PM -0400, simon@... wrote:
>>
>> >> <section name="Front Right Wheel">
>> >>     <attnum name="ride height" unit="mm" val="55"/>
>> >>     <attnum name="toe" unit="deg" val="-0.1"/>
>> >>     <attnum name="camber" unit="deg" val="0"/>
>> >> </section>
>> >>
>> >> <section name="Front Left Wheel">
>> >>     <attnum name="ride height" unit="mm" val="55"/>
>> >>     <attnum name="toe" unit="deg" val="0.1"/>
>> >>     <attnum name="camber" unit="deg" val="0"/>
>> >> </section>
>> >>
>> >> Is the setup above toe-in or toe-out?
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Tom Low-Shang | 31 May 2012 03:50

Re: toe and camber

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 11:19:21AM +0200, kilo aka Gabor Kmetyko wrote:
> 
> I am not the greatest of car setup creators, however I've got a
> feeling that it would help if applying toe -0.1 would mean "toe in"
> for both sides, similarly positive values would mean "toe out",
> regardless of the side? So it'd go "toe in" and "toe out" versus "toe
> left" or "toe right".
> Isn't this the convention for toe & camber in real life?

0.1° toe-in and 0.1° toe-out don't need a sign since everyone already
understands where the wheels are pointing. On the other hand camber
doesn't have similar terms and must qualify the angle as positive or
negative to be understood correctly.

The only place I found that mentions toe-in as positive and toe-out as
negative is the Wikipedia article on toe[1], but it cites no source for
the usage.

The format of the data in the XML files is internal to SD so it doesn't
have to be easily understood by non-developers. Once SD has a proper
user interface for changing setup, it should represent the internal data
using the conventional terminology.

Until that happens, the early adopters such as myself will be happy that
the data files are at least human readable. It's one of the few TORCS
legacies that is worth keeping in my opinion.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toe-in

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Wolf-Dieter Beelitz | 1 Jun 2012 15:53
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Re: toe and camber

Hello Tom,

have a look to Bernhard Wymanns TORCS tutorial.

There you should find the definitions including a diagram.
But AFAIK, you have to look into the Internet version, not the PDF version, caus the PDF version does not
contain all.

http://www.berniw.org

Cheers

Wolf-Dieter
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-----Original-Nachricht-----
> Betreff: Re: [Speed-dreams-users] toe and camber> Datum: Thu, 31 May 2012 03:50:28 +0200> Von: Tom
Low-Shang <tom <at> lowshang.com>> An: speed-dreams-users <at> lists.sourceforge.net> On Wed, May 30, 2012
at 11:19:21AM +0200, kilo aka Gabor Kmetyko> wrote: > > > > I am not the greatest of car setup creators,
however I've got a> > feeling that it would help if applying toe -0.1 would mean "toe in"> > for both sides,
similarly positive values would mean "toe out",> > regardless of the side? So it'd go "toe in" and "toe out"
versus> > "toe left" or "toe right".> > Isn't this the convention for toe & camber in real life?> > > > 0.1°
toe-in and 0.1° toe-out don't need a sign since everyone already> understands where the wheels are
pointing. On the other hand camber> doesn't have similar terms and must qualify the angle as positive or>
negative to be understood correctly.> > The only place I found that mentions toe-in as positive and
toe-out as> negative is the Wikipedia article on toe[1], but it cites no source> for the usage.> > The
format of the data in the XML files is internal to SD so it> doesn't have to be easily understood by
non-developers. Once SD has a> proper user interface for changing setup, it should represent the>
internal data using the conventional terminology.> > Until that happens, the early adopters such as
myself will be happy> that the data files are at least human readable. It's one of the few> TORCS legacies
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