Keith Moore | 1 Jun 18:55
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Re: Straw-man charter for http-bis


> That's exactly the argument. If a "more substantial" rewrite does a
> better job of documenting HTTP, we should consider it. This
> possibility shouldn't cause discomfort, because our shared goal is to
> accurately document HTTP 1.1, right?
The catch is that HTTP is (currently) specified by RFC 2616, and the
most accurate documentation about HTTP is in RFC 2616.  If you replace
2616 with a completely different specification, you're not "accurately
documenting" HTTP, you're _changing_ the specification.   You will
inevitably create incompatibilities between "old" HTTP and "new" HTTP.

I'm not saying it's inherently a bad idea to do that, I'm saying that a
rewrite is going to cause some interoperability issues even if you end
up with a much clearer and/or more precise specification.

People contemplating a rewrite of HTTP should really look hard that the
experience from the DRUMS working group that updated RFC 822 and SMTP. 
It took a very long time, and while the results are clearer in many ways
than the original specifications, IMHO they are not an improvement in
every respect.  For instance, a lot of effort was spent in  rewriting
the ABNF that describes internet messages.  The new ABNF is perhaps more
precise but it's _much_ harder to write a correct parser for the new
grammar - and there's very little benefit to doing so because new mail
readers still need to be able to parse pre-RFC2822 messages.  So in
practice, to write a good mail reader, you now need to refer to BOTH RFC
822 and RFC 2822 - because the RFC 822 grammar is the best one to write
a parser from, and 2822 has the grammar that you should use when writing
code to generate new messages.   (And they're in different notations!)
This means _more_ work for the implementor, a higher barrier to
producing a correct  implementation, and a greater temptation to not
(Continue reading)

Stefan Eissing | 1 Jun 20:50
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Re: Straw-man charter for http-bis


Am 01.06.2007 um 18:55 schrieb Keith Moore:
>> [Robert]That's exactly the argument. If a "more substantial"  
>> rewrite does a
>> better job of documenting HTTP, we should consider it. This
>> possibility shouldn't cause discomfort, because our shared goal is to
>> accurately document HTTP 1.1, right?
> The catch is that HTTP is (currently) specified by RFC 2616, and the
> most accurate documentation about HTTP is in RFC 2616.  If you replace
> 2616 with a completely different specification, you're not "accurately
> documenting" HTTP, you're _changing_ the specification.   You will
> inevitably create incompatibilities between "old" HTTP and "new" HTTP.
>
> I'm not saying it's inherently a bad idea to do that, I'm saying  
> that a
> rewrite is going to cause some interoperability issues even if you end
> up with a much clearer and/or more precise specification.

Taking a step back, what needs attention from the best of minds is  
2617. Let's face it: http authentication is awkward and compared to  
the rest of the protocol it feels like a child's toy, sitting in the  
glove compartment of a BMW.

With this in mind, I think a complete rewrite of 2616 is a waste of  
time and resources.

//Stefan

Keith Moore | 1 Jun 20:55
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Re: Straw-man charter for http-bis


> Taking a step back, what needs attention from the best of minds is
> 2617. Let's face it: http authentication is awkward and compared to
> the rest of the protocol it feels like a child's toy, sitting in the
> glove compartment of a BMW.
very much agree.  HTTP authentication as it currently exists is nearly
useless, and forms-and-cookie authentication (at least as it tends to be
implemented) isn't sufficient.

Eliot Lear | 1 Jun 20:31
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Re: Straw-man charter for http-bis

Keith Moore wrote:
> People contemplating a rewrite of HTTP should really look hard that the
> experience from the DRUMS working group that updated RFC 822 and SMTP. 
> It took a very long time, and while the results are clearer in many ways
> than the original specifications, IMHO they are not an improvement in
> every respect.  

I think this is a very valid point.  Many of us still have the scars.

Eliot


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