Patrick Andries | 4 Jan 04:50 2011
Picon

Applying for a common Moroccan Amazigh subtag

Hello,

Morocco has been teaching in schools since the early 2000's a convergent 
variant of Amazigh (Berber) using the Tifinagh script. This common 
variant aims to bridge gaps between the Berber variants in the country 
by eliminating what is seen as non essential phonetic variants 
("allophones") in the common script (this applies to some affricates, 
labiovelars and spirants, for some sounds there is simply no sign in the 
Tifinagh taught in schools). As far as grammar and the lexicon is 
concerned, the common variant teaches children that non-local words and 
syntactical features are equally valid but regional forms, enriching 
their vocabulary and syntactical knowledge this way (a bit like Brits 
know that an American truck is just a lorry).

Morocco would like register a new language code to refer to this common 
Amazigh written in Tifinagh. It is not satisfied with «ber» (for Berber 
languages, which is a collection of languages).

This being my first attempt to help registering a language subtag, I'm 
seeking some advice before applying for such a subtag.

I'm thinking at this stage to propose:

Type: language
Subtag: mac
Description: Moroccan Common Amazigh
Suppress-Script: Tfng

As references, one could mention various schoolbooks and grammars:

(Continue reading)

John Cowan | 4 Jan 05:48 2011

Re: Applying for a common Moroccan Amazigh subtag

Patrick Andries scripsit:

> Morocco has been teaching in schools since the early 2000's a convergent  
> variant of Amazigh (Berber) using the Tifinagh script. This common  
> variant aims to bridge gaps between the Berber variants in the country  
> by eliminating what is seen as non essential phonetic variants  
> ("allophones") in the common script (this applies to some affricates,  
> labiovelars and spirants, for some sounds there is simply no sign in the  
> Tifinagh taught in schools). As far as grammar and the lexicon is  
> concerned, the common variant teaches children that non-local words and  
> syntactical features are equally valid but regional forms, enriching  
> their vocabulary and syntactical knowledge this way (a bit like Brits  
> know that an American truck is just a lorry).

Well then, what we have here is a classic macrolanguage encompassing
some or all of Tachelhit (shi), Central Atlas Tamazight (tzm), and
Tarifit (rif), spoken in the south central, southeast, and northeast
parts of the country, respectively.  So what's needed is to apply
to ISO 639-3/RA for a new macrolanguage tag.  The normal deadline is
September 1 of each year, but the process is backlogged this year, so
try applying now (subject to the caveat below), following the directions
at http://sil.org/iso639-3/submit_changes.asp .  At worst they'll sit
on it till the end of the year and issue it in the spring of 2012.

You do need to make sure exactly which languages are to be encompassed by
the new macrolanguage, however.  Based on the few newspaper articles (in
English) that I read, it includes at least those three, but possibly more.

> Type: language
> Subtag: mac
(Continue reading)

Patrick Andries | 4 Jan 06:11 2011
Picon

Re: Applying for a common Moroccan Amazigh subtag

Le 03/01/11 23:48, John Cowan a écrit :
>> Type: language
>> Subtag: mac
>> Description: Moroccan Common Amazigh
>> Suppress-Script: Tfng
> 'mac' means Macedonian,
[PA] It is indeed in ISO 639-2/B, I simply looked in the IANA language 
subtag registry. Forgot that some values not listed may not be registered.
> so it's not available.  'zgh' would work.

[PA] Okay, I see the idea : (ama)z(i)gh. Could be sold I suppose.

Everybody agrees it is "macrolanguage" and ISO 639-3 is the way? How 
about the time frame?

P. A.
Stephane Bortzmeyer | 4 Jan 15:16 2011
Picon

Re: Applying for a common Moroccan Amazigh subtag

On Tue, Jan 04, 2011 at 12:11:26AM -0500,
 Patrick Andries <patrick <at> hapax.qc.ca> wrote 
 a message of 24 lines which said:

> Everybody agrees it is "macrolanguage"

I have a doubt here. From your description, it really seemed it was a
new language, some form of "standard berber", not a macrolanguage.

> and ISO 639-3 is the way? 

Yes. New language, their business first. RFC 5646, section 3.6 :

Before attempting to register a language subtag, there MUST be an
attempt to register the language with ISO 639.
John Cowan | 4 Jan 15:48 2011

Re: Applying for a common Moroccan Amazigh subtag

Stephane Bortzmeyer scripsit:

> > Everybody agrees it is "macrolanguage"
> 
> I have a doubt here. From your description, it really seemed it was a
> new language, some form of "standard berber", not a macrolanguage.

That is also a possibility.  I was thinking along the lines of Standard
Arabic or Mandarin Chinese, but an approach like that of Standard German
is also possible.

--

-- 
John Cowan   http://ccil.org/~cowan  cowan <at> ccil.org
[P]olice in many lands are now complaining that local arrestees are insisting
on having their Miranda rights read to them, just like perps in American TV
cop shows.  When it's explained to them that they are in a different country,
where those rights do not exist, they become outraged.  --Neal Stephenson
Patrick Andries | 4 Jan 16:26 2011
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Re: Applying for a common Moroccan Amazigh subtag

Le 04/01/11 09:16, Stephane Bortzmeyer a écrit :
On Tue, Jan 04, 2011 at 12:11:26AM -0500, Patrick Andries <patrick <at> hapax.qc.ca> wrote a message of 24 lines which said:
Everybody agrees it is "macrolanguage"
I have a doubt here. From your description, it really seemed it was a new language, some form of "standard berber", not a macrolanguage.

[PA] Well, that is really the question.  Any disadvantage of choosing a macrolanguage over a new language code? Which is easier to get? Which is preferred by software implementors?

Is it best to let the ISO 639-3 Registrar make that decision? (What should be done then? Applying for both a macrolanguage and a new language code?)

and ISO 639-3 is the way?
Yes. New language, their business first. RFC 5646, section 3.6 : Before attempting to register a language subtag, there MUST be an attempt to register the language with ISO 639.

[PA]  So I understand 639-2 is out of the question...?


P. A.


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John Cowan | 4 Jan 17:05 2011

Re: Applying for a common Moroccan Amazigh subtag

Patrick Andries scripsit:

> [PA] Well, that is really the question.  Any disadvantage of choosing a  
> macrolanguage over a new language code? Which is easier to get? Which is  
> preferred by software implementors?

On reflection, I think that I was wrong to propose a macrolanguage at
this stage, and that this is really a new language analogous to Standard
German.  If it succeeds, it will then be time to talk of a macrolanguage
that encompasses the new standard as well as the existing languages,
as 'ar' encompasses both Standard Arabic and the colloquials, and 'zh'
encompasses both Mandarin and the other Sinitic languages.

(Why is it a new language and not just a new dialect?  Because it draws
on the resources of a number of existing languages, and most importantly,
it has an _armey un flot_!)

To answer your other questions, I think that neither one is particularly
easier to get, and as for software implementers, I don't think they care
one way or another.

> Is it best to let the ISO 639-3 Registrarmake that decision? (What  
> should be done then? Applying for both a macrolanguage and a new  
> language code?)

It's always best, in my opinion, to submit a definite proposal.  If
the RA does not like it, they will change it.

> [PA]  So I understand 639-2 is out of the question...?

Not in principle.  There are surely enough works in the language by now
to meet the chief criterion, namely that there must exist at least fifty
works in the language, all of which can be found by looking in no more
than five different libraries.  (You are not required to enumerate the
works.)  But the 693-2/RA would most likely pass along any such proposal
to the 639-3/RA for approval on linguistic grounds before entering into
bibliographical questions.

--

-- 
You let them out again, Old Man Willow!                 John Cowan
What you be a-thinking of?  You should not be waking!   cowan <at> ccil.org
Eat earth!  Dig deep!  Drink water!  Go to sleep!
Bombadil is talking.                                    http://ccil.org/~cowan
Richard BUDELBERGER | 4 Jan 16:16 2011
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re: Applying for a common Moroccan Amazigh subtag

14 nivôse an CCXIX (le 4 janvier 2011 d. c.-d. c. g.), 15 h 51 : 15,8 °C…

> Message du 04/01/11 04:50
> De : Patrick Andries
> A : ietf-languages
> Objet : Applying for a common Moroccan Amazigh subtag
> 
> Hello,

Beuar,

> Morocco has been teaching in schools since the early 2000's a convergent 
> variant of Amazigh (Berber)
> using the Tifinagh script.

Malheureux écoliers !

> This common 
> variant aims to bridge gaps between the Berber variants in the country 
> by eliminating what is seen as non essential phonetic variants 
> ("allophones") in the common script (this applies to some affricates, 
> labiovelars and spirants, for some sounds there is simply no sign in the 
> Tifinagh taught in schools). As far as grammar and the lexicon is 
> concerned, the common variant teaches children that non-local words and 
> syntactical features are equally valid but regional forms, enriching 
> their vocabulary and syntactical knowledge this way (a bit like Brits 
> know that an American truck is just a lorry).
> 
> Morocco would like register a new language code to refer to this common 
> Amazigh written in Tifinagh. It is not satisfied with «ber» (for Berber 
> languages, which is a collection of languages).

Je pense que Morocco ferait mieux d'avoir une connaissance plus fine 
de sa langue, avant de vouloir la régir bureaucratiquement, au moins 
aussi fine que ces auteurs antiques, qui écrivaient pourtant bien éloignés 
de leur sujet d'étude. Cette langue ne s'appelle ni Amazigh, ni Tamazight, 
ni rien du tout en préfixes/suffixes (pas plus que le zoulou et le swahili ne 
s'appellent isiZulu ni kiSwahili), mais bien « m-z-gh », racine triconsonnantique 
de laquelle dérive le reste ; soit : « mazigh ». Nos modernes prétentieux 
occidentalocentristes et occidentalocentrés ont beaucoup à apprendre des 
modestes anciens ; le peuple de langue mazigh y est appelé (pluriel) 
« Maxyes » ou « Maxues » par Hérodote, « Macares » par Corippe, 
« Mazaces » par Lucain et Suétone, « Mazices » par Aethicus, Végèce, 
saint Hippolyte et d'autres ; soit, en bon français, « Mazigh » ; les « Mazigh(s) » 
parlant le « mazigh », soit, en version locale : les iMazighen parlant la tamazight…

> This being my first attempt to help registering a language subtag, 

Bon courage, et bienvenue dans le monde bureaucratique.

> I'm seeking some advice before applying for such a subtag.
> 
> I'm thinking at this stage to propose:
> 
> Type: language
> Subtag: mac
> Description: Moroccan Common Amazigh
> Suppress-Script: Tfng

« mcm », « Moroccan Common Mazigh », et « f-n-gh », « ti-finagh ».

> As references, one could mention various schoolbooks and grammars:
> 
> Graphie et orthographe de l'amazighe, Meftaha et al., IRCAM, Rabat, 2006.
> Vocabulaire de la langue amazighe, français-amazighe, IRCAM, Rabat, 2006.
> La nouvelle grammaire de l'amazighe, Boukhris et al., IRCAM, Rabat, 2008.
> ⵜⴰⵎⴰⵡⴰⵍⵜ ⵉⵏⵓ ⵜⴰⵎⵣⵡⴰⵔⵓⵜ (Dictionnaire imagier
amazighe), IRCAM, Rabat, 2008.

Pas un, donc, qui cause le français !…

> Do the members of this list have any suggestion before I apply for such 
> a subtag?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Patrick Andries
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John Cowan | 4 Jan 16:39 2011

Re: Applying for a common Moroccan Amazigh subtag

Richard BUDELBERGER scripsit:

> « mcm », « Moroccan Common Mazigh », et « f-n-gh », « ti-finagh ».

Alas, mcm = Moloccan Creole Portuguese, and as for 'Tfng', that's already
standardized.

The easiest way to find out whether a tag is available or not is to put it
for xxx in the URL http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=xxx .
If you get back the message "xxx is not a language code used in the
Ethnologue, 16th edition, nor is it a valid ISO 639-3 code", then the
tag is truly free.

--

-- 
Here lies the Christian,                        John Cowan
        judge, and poet Peter,                  http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Who broke the laws of God                       cowan <at> ccil.org
        and man and metre.
Doug Ewell | 4 Jan 18:45 2011

Re: Applying for a common Moroccan Amazigh subtag

Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer at nic dot fr> replied to Patrick
Andries <patrick at hapax dot qc dot ca>:

>> and ISO 639-3 is the way? 
>
> Yes. New language, their business first. RFC 5646, section 3.6 :
>
> Before attempting to register a language subtag, there MUST be an
> attempt to register the language with ISO 639.

An additional procedural point:

If ISO 639 does reject this request, and you decide to register a
language subtag in accordance with Section 3.6, it MUST be five to eight
letters long.  See Section 2.1 (ABNF) and Section 2.2.1, item 5. 
Neither 'mac' nor 'zgh' nor any other three-letter value is permissible
for a language subtag not based on ISO 639.

--
Doug Ewell | Thornton, Colorado, USA | http://www.ewellic.org
RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14 | ietf-languages  <at>  is dot gd slash 2kf0s ­

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CE Whitehead | 5 Jan 04:59 2011
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Applying for a common Moroccan Amazigh subtag

 
Hi.

John Cowan cowan at mercury.ccil.org
Tue Jan 4 17:05:59 CET 2011
> Patrick Andries scripsit:
>> [PA] Well, that is really the question.  Any disadvantage of choosing a 
>> macrolanguage over a new language code? Which is easier to get? Which is 
>> preferred by software implementors?
> On reflection, I think that I was wrong to propose a macrolanguage at
> this stage, and that this is really a new language analogous to Standard
> German.  If it succeeds, it will then be time to talk of a macrolanguage
> that encompasses the new standard as well as the existing languages,
> as 'ar' encompasses both Standard Arabic and the colloquials, and 'zh'
> encompasses both Mandarin and the other Sinitic languages.
+ 1 to this -- I would think that standardized Amazigh would be a language, not a macro-language, that is it would not subsume other languages.
 
John Cowan cowan at mercury.ccil.org
Tue Jan 4 16:39:11 CET 2011

> Richard BUDELBERGER scripsit:
>> « mcm », « Moroccan Common Mazigh », et « f-n-gh », « ti-finagh ».
> Alas, mcm = Moloccan Creole Portuguese, and as for 'Tfng', that's already
> standardized.
> The easiest way to find out whether a tag is available or not is to put it
> for xxx in the URL http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=xxx .
> If you get back the message "xxx is not a language code used in the
> Ethnologue, 16th edition, nor is it a valid ISO 639-3 code", then the
> tag is truly free.
According to both R. Ishida's utility and the search tool at ethnologue both [zgh] and [azh] and are available.  (Correct me if [azh] is not available.)
(I suppose there is no reason however to also search in R. Ishida's utility -- which provides information about existing subtags but not about all language codes; not all ethnologue codes become language subtag codes, and not quite every code that is indexed in ethnologue's search utility is indexed in Richard Ishida's language subtag utility; see http://people.w3.org/rishida/utils/subtags/).

One quick question:  will codes such as standardized Amazigh that are related to collection codes ever be mapped to the related code?  That is, could a code such as [zgh] if it were registered ever be mapped to [ber] the way language codes are mapped to macro-languages in iso 639-3 (for example [arb] is mapped to [ar])?  (Sorry to ask a dumb question.)

Thanks.
Best wishes,

--C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar <at> hotmail.com
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John Cowan | 5 Jan 10:14 2011

Re: Applying for a common Moroccan Amazigh subtag

CE Whitehead scripsit:

> One quick question:  will codes such as standardized Amazigh that are
> related to collection codes ever be mapped to the related code?  That
> is, could a code such as [zgh] if it were registered ever be mapped to
> [ber] the way language codes are mapped to macro-languages in iso 639-3
> (for example [arb] is mapped to [ar])?  (Sorry to ask a dumb question.)

There are no formal mappings in any standard between collection codes and
either individual language codes or macrolanguage codes, nor should there be.

--

-- 
John Cowan      cowan <at> ccil.org
        "Not to know The Smiths is not to know K.X.U."  --K.X.U.
Michael Everson | 3 Mar 18:52 2011

Applying for a Neo subtag

I'll be publishing a translation of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland in Neo (Los Aventuros de Alis in
Marvoland) in Neo -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo_(constructed_language) -- later this year or
sometime next, and Neo hasn't got an ISO 639 language tag. I filed a request today with the ISO 639-3
authority for the tag "neu". Failing that we would need a subtag to "art" here... I guess neo1961 would do. 

Editions of Alice in Scots, Ulster Scots, Sussex, and Appalachian are also in progress. For Scots and
Ulster Scots we have "sco" and "sco-ulster" respectively. I could propose "sussex" for the first. For the
second...?  

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Peter Constable | 9 Mar 08:01 2011
Picon

RE: Applying for a Neo subtag

Have you contacted Linguist List wrt Neo? Up to now, the RA for 639-3 has coordinated with Linguist List on
cataloguing of ancient, historic and constructed languages, and so would likely be relying on their
evaluation in this case. Perhaps it could help expedite your case if you engage with them while you wait on
the 639-3 RA to catch up on the 2010 backlog.

Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no] On
Behalf Of Michael Everson
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2011 9:52 AM
To: ietflang IETF Languages Discussion
Subject: Applying for a Neo subtag

I'll be publishing a translation of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland in Neo (Los Aventuros de Alis in
Marvoland) in Neo -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo_(constructed_language) -- later this year or
sometime next, and Neo hasn't got an ISO 639 language tag. I filed a request today with the ISO 639-3
authority for the tag "neu". Failing that we would need a subtag to "art" here... I guess neo1961 would do. 

Editions of Alice in Scots, Ulster Scots, Sussex, and Appalachian are also in progress. For Scots and
Ulster Scots we have "sco" and "sco-ulster" respectively. I could propose "sussex" for the first. For the
second...?  

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

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Michael Everson | 9 Mar 08:31 2011

Re: Applying for a Neo subtag

On 9 Mar 2011, at 07:01, Peter Constable wrote:

> Have you contacted Linguist List wrt Neo?

No. I have always stayed away from Linguist List because it is too massive and the amount of mail its
discussion list produced (as far back as the 90s as I recall) was just beyond my scope.

I did what I thought I was supposed to do. I asked the 639-3 RA for a new code. Unfortunately their backlog
(which seems to have to do mostly with tidying up mistakes in existing codes) is large and yesterday I was
told that my request won't be looked at until June or July (which I don't consider to be appropriately
responsive). 

> Up to now, the RA for 639-3 has coordinated with Linguist List on cataloguing of ancient, historic and
constructed languages, and so would likely be relying on their evaluation in this case. Perhaps it could
help expedite your case if you engage with them while you wait on the 639-3 RA to catch up on the 2010 backlog.

Which "them" is it? A particular person? One of the many lists it may have? 

The case for assigning a code for Neo is simple. It's an artificial/auxiliary language, has a variety
specification documents, a certain web presence, and there are people actively producing text in it. 

But if I must talk to someone in the vast Linguist List instead of relying on the 639-3 RA/JAC, I'd like to know
who that would be.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Michael Everson | 9 Mar 08:52 2011

Re: Applying for a Neo subtag

I discovered http://multitree.linguistlist.org/codes/00s which means that "the Linguist List"
recognizes Neo as a language, and assigned the code "00s" to it. It would be great if that could be converted
to "neu" without a three or four month delay.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
John Cowan | 9 Mar 09:10 2011

Re: Applying for a Neo subtag

Michael Everson scripsit:

> I did what I thought I was supposed to do. I asked the 639-3 RA for a
> new code. Unfortunately their backlog (which seems to have to do mostly
> with tidying up mistakes in existing codes) is large and yesterday I
> was told that my request won't be looked at until June or July (which
> I don't consider to be appropriately responsive).

The fact that ISO 639/RA has an annual approval cycle is regrettable,
but there it is.  It takes rather longer than that to get a character
into Unicode, as you know.

> The case for assigning a code for Neo is simple. It's an
> artificial/auxiliary language, has a variety specification documents,
> a certain web presence, and there are people actively producing text
> in it.

The criterion for registering artificial languages is that they possess a
literature: see http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/types.asp .

> But if I must talk to someone in the vast Linguist List instead of
> relying on the 639-3 RA/JAC, I'd like to know who that would be.

No, going through the RA is the right thing.  It's just that eventually
folks at LL will be asked to weigh in, rather than folks at Ethnologue.

--

-- 
John Cowan                                cowan <at> ccil.org
I amar prestar aen, han mathon ne nen,    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
han mathon ne chae, a han noston ne 'wilith.  --Galadriel, LOTR:FOTR
Anthony Aristar | 9 Mar 17:18 2011

Re: Applying for a Neo subtag

The "someone" who you'd talk to at the vast LINGUIST List is essentially 
me, Michael.  And, as you noted, we've already gone through the vetting 
process for Neo, and added it to our MultiTree database with a private 
use code.  My response to the RA will be that Neo should be added to 
639-3, and given an appropriate code.

I hope that solves your problem...

Anthony

On 3/9/2011 2:31 AM, Michael Everson wrote:
> On 9 Mar 2011, at 07:01, Peter Constable wrote:
>
>> Have you contacted Linguist List wrt Neo?
> No. I have always stayed away from Linguist List because it is too massive and the amount of mail its
discussion list produced (as far back as the 90s as I recall) was just beyond my scope.
>
> I did what I thought I was supposed to do. I asked the 639-3 RA for a new code. Unfortunately their backlog
(which seems to have to do mostly with tidying up mistakes in existing codes) is large and yesterday I was
told that my request won't be looked at until June or July (which I don't consider to be appropriately responsive).
>
>> Up to now, the RA for 639-3 has coordinated with Linguist List on cataloguing of ancient, historic and
constructed languages, and so would likely be relying on their evaluation in this case. Perhaps it could
help expedite your case if you engage with them while you wait on the 639-3 RA to catch up on the 2010 backlog.
> Which "them" is it? A particular person? One of the many lists it may have?
>
> The case for assigning a code for Neo is simple. It's an artificial/auxiliary language, has a variety
specification documents, a certain web presence, and there are people actively producing text in it.
>
> But if I must talk to someone in the vast Linguist List instead of relying on the 639-3 RA/JAC, I'd like to
know who that would be.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf-languages mailing list
> Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages

--

-- 
       **************************************
Anthony Aristar, Director, Institute for Language information&
                            Technology
Professor of Linguistics            Moderator, LINGUIST
Linguistics Program
Dept. of English                    aristar <at> linguistlist.org
Eastern Michigan University         2000 Huron River Dr, Suite 104
Ypsilanti, MI 48197
U.S.A.

URL: http://linguistlist.org/aristar/
Doug Ewell | 9 Mar 18:23 2011

Re: Applying for a Neo subtag

Michael Everson <everson at evertype dot com> wrote:

> I did what I thought I was supposed to do. I asked the 639-3 RA for
> a new code. Unfortunately their backlog (which seems to have to do
> mostly with tidying up mistakes in existing codes) is large and
> yesterday I was told that my request won't be looked at until June
> or July (which I don't consider to be appropriately responsive). 

I'm pretty sure the backlog has at least something to do with a change
in personnel.  Joan Spanne has resigned as Registrar and Melinda Lyons
has filled this role and is getting up to speed.

The delays have already caused frustration for at least one other
requester, and they will increase our workload of adding and changing
subtags in response to the 2010 change cycle, but we will just have to
deal with them.  Personnel changes happen, and to the extent the delays
are due to fixing past mistakes, I'm sure most people would rather the
mistakes be fixed.

--
Doug Ewell | Thornton, Colorado, USA | http://www.ewellic.org
RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14 | ietf-languages  <at>  is dot gd slash 2kf0s ­

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Kent Karlsson | 7 Mar 10:12 2011
Picon

Re: Applying for a Neo subtag


Den 2011-03-03 18:52, skrev "Michael Everson" <everson <at> evertype.com>:

> I'll be publishing a translation of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland in Neo
> (Los Aventuros de Alis in Marvoland) in Neo --
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo_(constructed_language) -- later this year or
> sometime next, and Neo hasn't got an ISO 639 language tag. I filed a request
> today with the ISO 639-3 authority for the tag "neu". Failing that we would
> need a subtag to "art" here... I guess neo1961 would do.

A variant subtag for "art" would be inappropriate. Neo not a variant of
"art", and in addition "art" is a collection code. Neo should have a primary
language subtag. A primary language subtag with 5-8 characters would work if
the request to add a three-character code for Neo to ISO 639-3 fails. (I
guess regarding Neo as a variant of Esperanto or Ido is not appropriate,
despite the similarities.)

    /Kent K

> Editions of Alice in Scots, Ulster Scots, Sussex, and Appalachian are also in
> progress. For Scots and Ulster Scots we have "sco" and "sco-ulster"
> respectively. I could propose "sussex" for the first. For the second...?
> 
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf-languages mailing list
> Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
Michael Everson | 7 Mar 10:54 2011

Re: Applying for a Neo subtag

On 7 Mar 2011, at 09:12, Kent Karlsson wrote:

> A variant subtag for "art" would be inappropriate. Neo not a variant of "art", and in addition "art" is a
collection code.

Isn't it a "collective" code, not a "collection" code? In any case, what good is it then?

> Neo should have a primary language subtag.

How do you have a subtag without a tag?

> A primary language subtag with 5-8 characters would work if the request to add a three-character code for
Neo to ISO 639-3 fails. (I guess regarding Neo as a variant of Esperanto or Ido is not appropriate, despite
the similarities.)

Neo is not a revision of Esperanto or Ido. 

You did not comment on Sussex English and Appalachian English. 

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Kent Karlsson | 7 Mar 11:40 2011
Picon

Re: Applying for a Neo subtag


Den 2011-03-07 10:54, skrev "Michael Everson" <everson <at> evertype.com>:

> On 7 Mar 2011, at 09:12, Kent Karlsson wrote:
> 
>> A variant subtag for "art" would be inappropriate. Neo not a variant of
>> "art", and in addition "art" is a collection code.
> 
> Isn't it a "collective" code, not a "collection" code?

Well, it's in ISO 639-5, which has the title "Codes for  the representation
of names of languages-- Part 5: Alpha-3 code for  language families and
groups" (I don't see "collective" or "collection" mentioned, on the other
hand, the normative text is not published at the "home site"). ISO 639-3 and
-2 refer to them as "collective", see e.g.
http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=art and
http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/normtext.html. But BCP 47 (current
version) refers to them as "collection" subtags; see
ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/bcp/bcp47.txt, 3.1.11., Scope Field.
Pick your favourite. However, since this list bases its work on BCP 47,
it may be best to use the term used by BCP 47.

> In any case, what good is it then?

Not a whole lot as a language tag on a document in a single language (except
to say "it's in an artificial language, but indeterminate as to which one").
As bibliographic tag for a (set of) shelf(s) of books on/in artificial
languages, it is fine.

>> Neo should have a primary language subtag.
> 
> How do you have a subtag without a tag?

BCP 47 refers to all "atomic" parts of a language tag as a "subtag". That
includes the primary language subtag. So "en" is a language tag that
consists only  of the (primary language) subtag "en". "en-GB" is a language
tag that consists of the primary language subtag "en" and the territory
subtag "GB". "sub" here refers to (sub)component of a tag; it is *not* a
synonym for an indication of "variant" or "subdivision" (in the view of BCP
47) of a language; though such a variant can be indicated by a "variant
subtag".

>> A primary language subtag with 5-8 characters would work if the request to
>> add a three-character code for Neo to ISO 639-3 fails. (I guess regarding Neo
>> as a variant of Esperanto or Ido is not appropriate, despite the
>> similarities.)
> 
> Neo is not a revision of Esperanto or Ido.

That's what I assumed.

> You did not comment on Sussex English and Appalachian English.

Because I did not have anything to add or comment on, at this moment,
regarding those...

    /Kent K

> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
CE Whitehead | 7 Mar 16:15 2011
Picon

Applying for a Neo Subtag

Hi.
Michael Everson everson at evertype.com
Thu Mar 3 18:52:20 CET 2011

 

> I'll be publishing a translation of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland in Neo (Los Aventuros de Alis in Marvoland) in Neo -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo_(constructed_language) -- later this year or sometime next, and Neo hasn't got an ISO 639 language tag. I filed a request today with the ISO 639-3 authority for the tag "neu". Failing that we would need a subtag to "art" here... I guess neo1961 would do.I did look briefly at Neo. It does not seem to have a lot of users but I can't speak on this.It looks a bit like Italian to me (when I say it to myself aloud I can hear the Italian intonation pattern).But I am not suggesting Italian as a prefix; just making a comment about the apparent intonation. > Editions of Alice in Scots, Ulster Scots, Sussex, and Appalachian are also in progress. For Scots and Ulster Scots we have "sco" and "sco-ulster" respectively. I could propose "sussex" for the first. For the second...? If you need a reference, below are quick links I found courtesy of google:http://www.cas.sc.edu/engl/dictionary/dictionary.htmlhttp://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/zanuttir/Appalachian%20project/current.htmlhttp://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/zanuttir/Appalachian%20project/research.htmlhttp://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED323066&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED323066)The georgetown info. suggests that there is at least more than one spoken variety and that jibes with what I know based on a relative who has a family member from East Tennessee.But I suppose you have enough information about it?Best,--C. E. Whiteheadcewcathar <at> hotmail.com > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
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Kent Karlsson | 7 Mar 19:33 2011
Picon

Re: Applying for a Neo Subtag


Den 2011-03-07 16:15, skrev "CE Whitehead" <cewcathar <at> hotmail.com>:

I did look briefly at Neo.  It does not seem to have a lot of users but I can't speak on this.
It looks a bit like Italian to me (when I say it to myself aloud I can hear the Italian intonation pattern).
But I am not suggesting Italian as a prefix; just making a comment about the apparent intonation.

It seems (to me) that Romance languages is a popular inspiration for artificial language constructors...

    /Kent K
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Re: Applying for a Neo Subtag

Unfortunate that so many of the artificial languages chose to use inflections and gender; if you're going to go to all the bother of inventing an artificial language, you might as well get rid of that baggage as well.

Mark

— Il meglio è l’inimico del bene —


On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 10:33, Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14 <at> telia.com> wrote:

Den 2011-03-07 16:15, skrev "CE Whitehead" <cewcathar <at> hotmail.com>:

I did look briefly at Neo.  It does not seem to have a lot of users but I can't speak on this.
It looks a bit like Italian to me (when I say it to myself aloud I can hear the Italian intonation pattern).
But I am not suggesting Italian as a prefix; just making a comment about the apparent intonation.

It seems (to me) that Romance languages is a popular inspiration for artificial language constructors...

    /Kent K

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John Cowan | 7 Mar 20:09 2011

Re: Applying for a Neo Subtag

Mark Davis ?? (sı??p ?ɹ?ɯ) scripsit:

> Unfortunate that so many of the artificial languages chose to use
> inflections and gender; if you're going to go to all the bother of
> inventing an artificial language, you might as well get rid of that
> baggage as well.

Inflection, particles, word order: you can't ditch them all.  Esperanto
goes for inflection for conversion, TAM and noun case, particles for
everything else, leaving word order for pragmatic relationships.

I don't know of any auxlang with grammatical gender.

--

-- 
John Cowan  cowan <at> ccil.org   http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Dievas dave dantis; Dievas duos duonos          --Lithuanian proverb
Deus dedit dentes; deus dabit panem             --Latin version thereof
Deity donated dentition;
  deity'll donate doughnuts                     --English version by Muke Tever
God gave gums; God'll give granary              --Version by Mat McVeagh
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Re: Applying for a Neo Subtag

No, you can't ditch them all; not saying you can.

Particles or word order are so very much simpler than inflections for one of the key problems we are faced with: parameter substitution. That is, substituting variables in sentences templates like "{person} viewed {number} {things} on {date}". Inflexions would be ok if they were perfectly regular and never overlapped with other words—but that never happens, so they are extremely painful.

Mark

— Il meglio è l’inimico del bene —


On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 11:09, John Cowan <cowan <at> mercury.ccil.org> wrote:
Mark Davis â?? (sıÊ?É?p Ê?ɹÉ?ɯ) scripsit:

> Unfortunate that so many of the artificial languages chose to use
> inflections and gender; if you're going to go to all the bother of
> inventing an artificial language, you might as well get rid of that
> baggage as well.

Inflection, particles, word order: you can't ditch them all.  Esperanto
goes for inflection for conversion, TAM and noun case, particles for
everything else, leaving word order for pragmatic relationships.

I don't know of any auxlang with grammatical gender.

--
John Cowan  cowan <at> ccil.org   http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Dievas dave dantis; Dievas duos duonos          --Lithuanian proverb
Deus dedit dentes; deus dabit panem             --Latin version thereof
Deity donated dentition;
 deity'll donate doughnuts                     --English version by Muke Tever
God gave gums; God'll give granary              --Version by Mat McVeagh

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David Starner | 7 Mar 20:56 2011
Picon

Re: Applying for a Neo Subtag

On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 11:49 AM, Mark Davis ☕ (sıʌɐp ʞɹɐɯ)
<mark <at> macchiato.com> wrote:
> No, you can't ditch them all; not saying you can.
> Particles or word order are so very much simpler than inflections for one of
> the key problems we are faced with: parameter substitution. That is,
> substituting variables in sentences templates like "{person} viewed {number}
> {things} on {date}". Inflexions would be ok if they were perfectly regular
> and never overlapped with other words—but that never happens, so they are
> extremely painful.

In most artificial languages, they are perfectly regular. In most
languages, inflexions would be easy if you were dealing with just one
language. If you want to be correct on "a/an", you simply store the
correct form beside the word. It's only when you're dealing with
English and German and Finnish and Turkish and Chinese that it's a
problem, in which case Esperanto and most other artificial languages
are pretty easy.

--

-- 
Kie ekzistas vivo, ekzistas espero.
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Michael Everson | 7 Mar 20:12 2011

Re: Applying for a Neo Subtag

On 7 Mar 2011, at 18:47, Mark Davis ☕ (sıʌɐp ʞɹɐɯ) wrote:

> Unfortunate that so many of the artificial languages chose to use inflections and gender; if you're going
to go to all the bother of inventing an artificial language, you might as well get rid of that baggage as well.

That's a very anglo-centric view, isn't it?

(OK, this is going to go off-topic very fast...)

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

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Re: Applying for a Neo Subtag

It's all been off topic with this sentence ;-)

> That's a very anglo-centric view, isn't it?

Not particularly: English is also defective in that respect; there are many languages that are less inflected than English.

Mark

— Il meglio è l’inimico del bene —


On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 11:12, Michael Everson <everson <at> evertype.com> wrote:
On 7 Mar 2011, at 18:47, Mark Davis ☕ (sıʌɐp ʞɹɐɯ) wrote:

> Unfortunate that so many of the artificial languages chose to use inflections and gender; if you're going to go to all the bother of inventing an artificial language, you might as well get rid of that baggage as well.

That's a very anglo-centric view, isn't it?

(OK, this is going to go off-topic very fast...)

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

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Peter Constable | 7 Mar 23:17 2011
Picon

RE: Applying for a Neo Subtag

Thai, for instance.

 

Peter

 

From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Mark Davis ? (si??p ????)
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 12:44 PM
To: Michael Everson
Cc: ietflang IETF Languages Discussion
Subject: Re: Applying for a Neo Subtag

 

It's all been off topic with this sentence ;-)

 

That's a very anglo-centric view, isn't it?

 

Not particularly: English is also defective in that respect; there are many languages that are less inflected than English.

 

Mark

— Il meglio è l’inimico del bene —


On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 11:12, Michael Everson <everson <at> evertype.com> wrote:

On 7 Mar 2011, at 18:47, Mark Davis ☕ (sıʌɐp ʞɹɐɯ) wrote:

> Unfortunate that so many of the artificial languages chose to use inflections and gender; if you're going to go to all the bother of inventing an artificial language, you might as well get rid of that baggage as well.

That's a very anglo-centric view, isn't it?

(OK, this is going to go off-topic very fast...)


Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

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http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages

 

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Phillips, Addison | 7 Mar 18:51 2011

RE: Applying for a Neo subtag

> 
> > I'll be publishing a translation of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland
> > in Neo (Los Aventuros de Alis in Marvoland) in Neo --
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo_(constructed_language) -- later this
> > year or sometime next, and Neo hasn't got an ISO 639 language tag. I
> > filed a request today with the ISO 639-3 authority for the tag "neu".
> > Failing that we would need a subtag to "art" here... I guess neo1961 would
> do.
> 
> A variant subtag for "art" would be inappropriate. Neo not a variant of "art",
> and in addition "art" is a collection code. Neo should have a primary language
> subtag. A primary language subtag with 5-8 characters would work if the
> request to add a three-character code for Neo to ISO 639-3 fails. (I guess
> regarding Neo as a variant of Esperanto or Ido is not appropriate, despite the
> similarities.)
> 
A primary language subtag would be appropriate if and only if ISO 639 had already rejected assigning a code
to Neo. Until/unless that happens, it is probably inappropriate to register any code for the language in
question. And then, as Kent Karlsson points out, a 5-8 character primary language subtag would be
appropriate. Section 3.6 of RFC 5646 spells this out:

    Subtags MUST NOT be registered for languages
      defined by codes that exist in ISO 639-1, ISO 639-2, or ISO 639-3;
      that are under consideration by the ISO 639 registration
      authorities; or that have never been attempted for registration
      with those authorities.  If ISO 639 has previously rejected a
      language for registration, it is reasonable to assume that there
      must be additional, very compelling evidence of need before it
      will be registered as a primary language subtag in the IANA
      registry (to the extent that it is very unlikely that any subtags
      will be registered of this type).

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect (Lab126)
Chair (W3C I18N, IETF IRI WGs)

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.
Doug Ewell | 7 Mar 19:24 2011

Re: Applying for a Neo subtag

Michael Everson <everson at evertype dot com> wrote:

> [...] Neo hasn't got an ISO 639 language tag. I filed a request today with the ISO 639-3 authority for the tag
"neu". Failing that we would need a subtag to "art" here... I guess neo1961 would do.

Kent's reply is correct.  In case ISO 639-3/RA rejects Michael's
request, the alternative course of action("discouraged" according to
Section 2.2.1) is to propose a registered language subtag, not a variant
under 'art' or anything else.

Back in the RFC 1766 and 3066 whole-tag days, the first (and only)
course was indeed to register tags beginning with "art-" or "i-".  That
approach was not "discouraged" since ISO 639-3, which attempts to encode
all languages and not just well-documented ones, did not exist at the
time.

BCP 47 does indeed refer to all of the components making up a language
tag as "subtags," regardless of their position within the tag, and does
use the term "collection" as the Scope value for language subtags
derived from ISO 639-5 (including 'bh', which exists in 639-1).

--
Doug Ewell | Thornton, Colorado, USA | http://www.ewellic.org
RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14 | ietf-languages  <at>  is dot gd slash 2kf0s ­

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Michael Everson | 7 Mar 19:40 2011

Re: Applying for a Neo subtag

On 7 Mar 2011, at 18:24, Doug Ewell wrote:

> Kent's reply is correct.  In case ISO 639-3/RA rejects Michael's
> request, the alternative course of action("discouraged" according to Section 2.2.1) is to propose a
registered language subtag, not a variant under 'art' or anything else.

I thought all these people were working on things that would parse language tags, which start with two or
three letters. So there's nothing.

Anyway I think my reasonable expectations are that 639-3 will accept "neu". 

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Phillips, Addison | 7 Mar 20:03 2011

RE: Applying for a Neo subtag

> 
> I thought all these people were working on things that would parse language
> tags, which start with two or three letters. So there's nothing.
> 

All what people? No one who has read the RFC would ever assume that language tags start only with two or three
letter subtags...

Addison
Michael Everson | 7 Mar 20:17 2011

Re: Applying for a Neo subtag

On 7 Mar 2011, at 19:03, Phillips, Addison wrote:

>> I thought all these people were working on things that would parse language tags, which start with two or
three letters. So there's nothing.
> 
> All what people? 

People on this list often talk about parsing subtags. 

There are aspects of the RFC that programmers get more out of than non-programmers do. Including things
that seem blindingly obvious to programmers. 

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Kent Karlsson | 7 Mar 21:38 2011
Picon

Re: Applying for a Neo subtag


Den 2011-03-07 19:40, skrev "Michael Everson" <everson <at> evertype.com>:

> On 7 Mar 2011, at 18:24, Doug Ewell wrote:
> 
>> Kent's reply is correct.  In case ISO 639-3/RA rejects Michael's
>> request, the alternative course of action("discouraged" according to Section
>> 2.2.1) is to propose a registered language subtag, not a variant under 'art'
>> or anything else.
> 
> I thought all these people were working on things that would parse language
> tags, which start with two or three letters. So there's nothing.

BCP 47 language tags can start with one letter (x or i); two or three
letters: from ISO 639-1, -2, -3, -5; or 5-8 letters. Four letter primary
language subtags are also in principle allowed, but reserved for future use;
none can be registered without updating BCP 47 (i.e. a new round of LTRU).

> Anyway I think my reasonable expectations are that 639-3 will accept "neu".

And would make it easy for this list...

    /Kent K
Kent Karlsson | 7 Mar 19:33 2011
Picon

Re: Applying for a Neo subtag


Den 2011-03-07 18:51, skrev "Phillips, Addison" <addison <at> lab126.com>:

>> A variant subtag for "art" would be inappropriate. Neo not a variant of
>> "art",
>> and in addition "art" is a collection code. Neo should have a primary
>> language
>> subtag. A primary language subtag with 5-8 characters would work if the
>> request to add a three-character code for Neo to ISO 639-3 fails. (I guess
>> regarding Neo as a variant of Esperanto or Ido is not appropriate, despite
>> the
>> similarities.)
>> 
> A primary language subtag would be appropriate if and only if ISO 639 had
> already rejected assigning a code to Neo.

If you meant to write "A primary language subtag assigned by this group
would be appropriate...", then I agree. But a 3-letter code assigned by
ISO 639-3 RA would be a primary language subtag... But as written, your
sentence here is false...

    /Kent K
Phillips, Addison | 7 Mar 19:53 2011

RE: Applying for a Neo subtag

> 
> >> A variant subtag for "art" would be inappropriate. Neo not a variant
> >> of "art", and in addition "art" is a collection code. Neo should have
> >> a primary language subtag. A primary language subtag with 5-8
> >> characters would work if the request to add a three-character code
> >> for Neo to ISO 639-3 fails. (I guess regarding Neo as a variant of
> >> Esperanto or Ido is not appropriate, despite the
> >> similarities.)
> >>
> > A primary language subtag would be appropriate if and only if ISO 639
> > had already rejected assigning a code to Neo.
> 
> If you meant to write "A primary language subtag assigned by this group
> would be appropriate...", then I agree. But a 3-letter code assigned by ISO
> 639-3 RA would be a primary language subtag... But as written, your sentence
> here is false...
> 

Your reading of my sentence would be what I was trying to convey: a (5-to-8 letter) primary language subtag
assigned by this group would only be appropriate if ISO 639 had rejected assigning a 2-3 letter one.

Addison
Doug Ewell | 7 Mar 19:53 2011

Re: Applying for a Neo subtag

Michael Everson <everson at evertype dot com> wrote:

>> Kent's reply is correct.  In case ISO 639-3/RA rejects Michael's
>> request, the alternative course of action ("discouraged" according
>> to Section 2.2.1) is to propose a registered language subtag, not a
>> variant under 'art' or anything else.
>
> I thought all these people were working on things that would parse
> language tags, which start with two or three letters. So there's
> nothing.

Smart people who are working on parsers that are meant to be conformant
to BCP 47 are including support for language subtags of 5 to 8 letters,
even if none are assigned yet.  They are part of the ABNF.

--
Doug Ewell | Thornton, Colorado, USA | http://www.ewellic.org
RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14 | ietf-languages  <at>  is dot gd slash 2kf0s ­

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