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Julien ÉLIE | 24 Jun 2010 15:44
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[NNTP] Tr: Last Call: draft-elie-nntp-list-additions (Network News Transfer Protocol (NNTP) Additions to LIST Command) to Proposed Standard

Hi all,

The draft specifying the COUNTS, DISTRIBUTIONS, MODERATORS, MOTD,
and SUBSCRIPTIONS variants to the LIST command, as well as additional
'j', 'x' and '=' status for a newsgroup, is currently in Last Call.

If you have any comments, do not hesitate to tell before July, 16th 2010.

Thanks,

-- 
Julien

----- Message d'origine ----- 
De : "The IESG" <iesg-secretary <at> ietf.org>
Groupes de discussion : gmane.ietf.announce
À : "IETF-Announce" <ietf-announce <at> ietf.org>
Envoyé : samedi 19 juin 2010 02:08
Objet : Last Call: draft-elie-nntp-list-additions (Network News Transfer Protocol (NNTP) Additions to
LIST Command) to Proposed 
Standard

> The IESG has received a request from an individual submitter to consider
> the following document:
>
> - 'Network News Transfer Protocol (NNTP) Additions to LIST Command '
>   <draft-elie-nntp-list-additions-03.txt> as a Proposed Standard
>
> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
> final comments on this action.  Please send substantive comments to the
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Julien ÉLIE | 24 Jun 2010 15:57
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Re: [NNTP] Tr: Last Call: draft-elie-nntp-list-additions (Network News Transfer Protocol (NNTP) Additions to LIST Command) toProposed Standard

Hi,

* Regarding LIST COUNTS, the separator is one or more spaces.
It is like LIST ACTIVE.  That is to say no tabulation is allowed.

  list-counts-content =
        *(newsgroup-name 3(SPA article-number)
        SPA newsgroup-status CRLF)

I think that is the best thing to do (SPA instead of WS) but
do not hesitate to tell if you think WS is better.
As LIST COUNTS is very similar to LIST ACTIVE and as LIST ACTIVE
uses SPA for historical reasons (client parsers expect spaces),
I think we should go on with SPA for LIST COUNTS.
(Highwind servers and INN 2.5.2 use a single space.)

* A question by Alexey, the Area Director sponsor for the draft:

LIST MODERATORS
2.4.3.  Example

       Similarly, a "%s" pattern rule cannot be used for the moderation
       submission template for two moderated newsgroups whose names
       differ only by the case of their characters.

Left hand sides of email addresses are actually case sensitive (although
most end systems treat them as case-insensitive).
Therefore, is this remark for LIST MODERATORS accurate?  Maybe we should
say "It is recommended not to use [...]" because, clearly, "cannot"
is wrong.
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Russ Allbery | 24 Jun 2010 19:40
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Re: [NNTP] Tr: Last Call: draft-elie-nntp-list-additions (Network News Transfer Protocol (NNTP) Additions to LIST Command) toProposed Standard

Julien ÉLIE <julien <at> trigofacile.com> writes:

> * A question by Alexey, the Area Director sponsor for the draft:

> LIST MODERATORS
> 2.4.3.  Example

>       Similarly, a "%s" pattern rule cannot be used for the moderation
>       submission template for two moderated newsgroups whose names
>       differ only by the case of their characters.

> Left hand sides of email addresses are actually case sensitive (although
> most end systems treat them as case-insensitive).
> Therefore, is this remark for LIST MODERATORS accurate?  Maybe we should
> say "It is recommended not to use [...]" because, clearly, "cannot"
> is wrong.

> What do you think about that?  Is it the right fix to do?

While the LHS of an email address is case-sensitive in the standard, most
mail systems do not treat it as case-sensitive without going to special
work to configure them to do so, which means that in practice relying on
that case-sensitivity is unlikely to work.  We should probably say that
explicitly, but I think the provision of the text here is correct.

--

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra <at> stanford.edu)             <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
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Julien ÉLIE | 5 Jul 2010 23:50
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Re: [NNTP] Tr: Last Call: draft-elie-nntp-list-additions (Network News Transfer Protocol (NNTP) Additions to LIST Command) to Proposed Standard

Hi Russ,

>> LIST MODERATORS
>> 2.4.3.  Example
>>
>>       Similarly, a "%s" pattern rule cannot be used for the moderation
>>       submission template for two moderated newsgroups whose names
>>       differ only by the case of their characters.
>>
>> Left hand sides of email addresses are actually case sensitive (although
>> most end systems treat them as case-insensitive).
>> Therefore, is this remark for LIST MODERATORS accurate?  Maybe we should
>> say "It is recommended not to use [...]" because, clearly, "cannot"
>> is wrong.
>
> While the LHS of an email address is case-sensitive in the standard, most
> mail systems do not treat it as case-sensitive without going to special
> work to configure them to do so, which means that in practice relying on
> that case-sensitivity is unlikely to work.  We should probably say that
> explicitly, but I think the provision of the text here is correct.

Thanks for your input on that subject.
After having seen with Alexey, we're about to reword the paragraph
as follows:

      Similarly, it is not recommended to use a "%s" pattern rule for
      the moderation submission template for two moderated newsgroups
      whose names differ only by the case of their characters, because
      email systems are frequently treating left-hand-side of email
      addresses as case-sensitive.
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Russ Allbery | 5 Jul 2010 23:55
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Re: [NNTP] Tr: Last Call: draft-elie-nntp-list-additions (Network News Transfer Protocol (NNTP) Additions to LIST Command) to Proposed Standard

Julien ÉLIE <julien <at> trigofacile.com> writes:

> Thanks for your input on that subject.
> After having seen with Alexey, we're about to reword the paragraph
> as follows:

>      Similarly, it is not recommended to use a "%s" pattern rule for
>      the moderation submission template for two moderated newsgroups
>      whose names differ only by the case of their characters, because
>      email systems are frequently treating left-hand-side of email
>      addresses as case-sensitive.

> I hope it's fine for everyone.

I would replace "are frequently treating" with "frequently treat the".
Also, wouldn't it be good to sprinkle some RFC 2119 language in here?  I
think SHOULD NOT is warranted, since this will cause interoperability
problems.

--

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra <at> stanford.edu)             <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
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Julien ÉLIE | 8 Aug 2010 14:19
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Re: [NNTP] Tr: Last Call: draft-elie-nntp-list-additions (Network News Transfer Protocol (NNTP) Additions to LIST Command) to Proposed Standard

Hi all,

>> Thanks for your input on that subject.
>> After having seen with Alexey, we're about to reword the paragraph
>> as follows:
>>
>>      Similarly, it is not recommended to use a "%s" pattern rule for
>>      the moderation submission template for two moderated newsgroups
>>      whose names differ only by the case of their characters, because
>>      email systems are frequently treating left-hand-side of email
>>      addresses as case-sensitive.
>
> I would replace "are frequently treating" with "frequently treat the".

I have just released a -04 version which takes into account Russ' comment.
Thanks again for it.
I hope it is now fine.
    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elie-nntp-list-additions/
    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-elie-nntp-list-additions-04.txt

Final wording:

      Similarly, it is not recommended to use a "%s" pattern rule for
      the moderation submission template for two moderated newsgroups
      whose names differ only by the case of their characters, because
      e-mail systems frequently treat the left-hand-side of e-mail
      addresses as case-sensitive.  See also Section 3.1.4 of [RFC5536]
      and Section 7.2 of [I-D.ietf-usefor-useage] for the syntax of a
      newsgroup name.
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Julien ÉLIE | 17 Aug 2010 22:25
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Re: [NNTP] Tr: Last Call: draft-elie-nntp-list-additions (Network News Transfer Protocol (NNTP) Additions to LIST Command) to Proposed Standard

Hi all,

> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elie-nntp-list-additions/

Good news:  the IESG has approved the -05 draft as a Proposed Standard.
It is now in the hands of the RFC Editor.

Peter Saint-Andre commented that it was well-written during IESG Evaluation;
all credits are for Jeffrey M. Vinocur because he improved and patiently fixed
the English wording and the quality of the draft!  :-)

Changes from -04

   o  Fix a few nits which were found during IESG Evaluation.  The most
      important are:  in Section 2, "optional" is changed to "OPTIONAL";
      in Section 2.4.2, "SHOULD NOT occur" is changed to "should not
      occur".  Thanks to Sean Turner and Peter Saint-Andre.

   o  Show in the example of LIST DISTRIBUTIONS that descriptions of
      distributions not present in the distrib.pats list can be
      mentioned in the distributions list.

--

-- 
Julien ÉLIE

« Si le peuple est content des jeux, je te donnerai des sesterces.
  S'il n'est pas content, je te donnerai aux lions ! » (Astérix)
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Julien ÉLIE | 14 Jul 2010 23:25
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Re: [NNTP] Tr: Last Call: draft-elie-nntp-list-additions (Network News Transfer Protocol (NNTP) Additions to LIST Command) to Proposed Standard

Hi all,

Something I had planned to change but I forgot in draft -03:
    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elie-nntp-list-additions/

Section 3.2:

      [C] IHAVE <for.misc.test <at> example.com>
      [S] 335 Send it; end with <CR-LF>.<CR-LF>
      [C] Path: demo!.POSTED.somewhere!not-for-mail
      [C] From: "Demo User" <nobody <at> example.com>
      [C] Newsgroups: misc.test
      [C] Subject: I am just a test article
      [C] Date: 18 Oct 2009 16:02:45 +0200
      [C] Organization: An example, Paris, FR.
      [C] Message-ID: <for.misc.test <at> example.com>
      [C]
      [C] This is just a test article.
      [C] .
      [S] 235 Article transferred OK

      [C] POST
      [S] 340 Input article; end with <CR-LF>.<CR-LF>
      [C] From: "Demo User" <nobody <at> example.com>
      [C] Newsgroups: misc.test
      [C] Subject: I am just a test article
      [C]
      [C] This is just a test article.
      [C] .
      [S] 441 Newsgroup "misc.test" has been renamed to "foo.bar"
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