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Alex Butcher, ISC/ISYS | 1 Dec 2004 10:12
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RE: ID card bill now online


--On 30 November 2004 15:49 +0000 Owen Lewis <oml@...> wrote:

> On the other hand if your argument is simply that you wish to reserve to
> yourself a right to misrepresent or to deny your true identity as you
> alone shall decide....

Damn straight I do, if a rather less benign government rises to power in 
the UK and I'm a member of one of its chosen scapegoat groups or involved 
in protecting people who are. I'm not so naïve as to believe it could never 
happen here (and indeed, historically, it has, depending on your professed 
religion).

> well I think you are seriously out of step with the times and with what
> will come to pass here.

It wouldn't be the first time. :-/

> Owen

Best Regards,
Alex.
--

-- 
Alex Butcher: Security & Integrity, Personal Computer Systems Group
Information Systems and Computing             GPG Key ID: F9B27DC9
GPG Fingerprint: D62A DD83 A0B8 D174 49C4 2849 832D 6C72 F9B2 7DC9
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David Hansen | 1 Dec 2004 12:16
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Re: ID card bill now online

On 1 Dec 2004 at 9:42, Ian G Batten wrote:

> Blunkett --- a man who, according to the Mail this morning, recorded a
> diary of the date, time and location of every sexual act he had with his
> lover, which doesn't to me sound like the work of anyone sane

I have not spent too much time on this either, beyond reflecting that 
love makes most of us do stupid things at times and occasionally 
smiling at his humiliation. While one should not smile at the 
misfortune of someone else, Mastermind is one of the most dangerous 
people in the UK at the moment and deserves everything he gets.

If the Daily Wail is correct, which is a big if, then it shows a 
compulsion to record everything and that is a valuable insight into how 
whatever is between his ears works. It would certainly explain his 
obsession with keeping track of everyone, something he has expressed in 
as many words.

--

-- 
  David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will *always* explain why I revoke a key, unless the UK 
 government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
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Ian G Batten | 1 Dec 2004 10:42
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Re: ID card bill now online

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004, Alex Butcher, ISC/ISYS wrote:
> Damn straight I do, if a rather less benign government rises to power in 
> the UK and I'm a member of one of its chosen scapegoat groups or involved 
> in protecting people who are. I'm not so naïve as to believe it could never 
> happen here (and indeed, historically, it has, depending on your professed 
> religion).

I bought for airline reading purposes Peter ``I'm not mad, I just act,
sound and write as though I am'' Hitchen's book on liberty.  It's not
bad, as monomaniacal tracts go, and it recounts the interesting tale of
a jewish tailor living legitimately in Britain who was prosecuted
towards the end of the war for not having an ID card.  Hitchen
speculates that the tailor may have been rather keen not to have his
name (Goldberg, I think) recorded on a national list in 1940.  The
killer point is that he had never had an ID card, and had got through
the entire war unchallenged, which rather cut away at the knees the
justification for having such a scheme.

Blunkett --- a man who, according to the Mail this morning, recorded a
diary of the date, time and location of every sexual act he had with his
lover, which doesn't to me sound like the work of anyone sane --- wants
us to believe that it was OK for the Dutch government of 1937 to record
everyone's religious affiliation, and what was done with that data
wasn't the fault of the people that recorded it.  He is, as he is in so
many things, utterly wrong.

[[ Blunkett is being represented in his legal actions by the wife of the
man who set up the ``independent'' inquiry into the visa scam.  Remember
this when he talks about ``safeguards'' and ``honesty''. ]]
(Continue reading)

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Owen Lewis | 1 Dec 2004 11:33

RE: ID card bill now online


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ukcrypto-admin@...
> [mailto:ukcrypto-admin@...]On Behalf Of Ian G Batten
> Sent: 01 December 2004 09:43
> To: ukcrypto@...
> Subject: Re: ID card bill now online
>
>
> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004, Alex Butcher, ISC/ISYS wrote:
> > Damn straight I do, if a rather less benign government rises to
> power in
> > the UK and I'm a member of one of its chosen scapegoat groups
> or involved
> > in protecting people who are. I'm not so naïve as to believe it
> could never
> > happen here (and indeed, historically, it has, depending on
> your professed
> > religion).
>
> I bought for airline reading purposes Peter ``I'm not mad, I just act,
> sound and write as though I am'' Hitchen's book on liberty.  It's not
> bad, as monomaniacal tracts go, and it recounts the interesting tale of
> a jewish tailor living legitimately in Britain who was prosecuted
> towards the end of the war for not having an ID card.  Hitchen
> speculates that the tailor may have been rather keen not to have his
> name (Goldberg, I think) recorded on a national list in 1940.  The
> killer point is that he had never had an ID card, and had got through
> the entire war unchallenged, which rather cut away at the knees the
> justification for having such a scheme.
(Continue reading)

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Mike Richards | 2 Dec 2004 15:06
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Re: ID card bill now online


On 1 Dec 2004, at 10:33, Owen Lewis wrote:
>
> 	-	When the Germans arrives in Warsaw, was the *lack* f any record of
> religious affiliation any bar to the elimination of entire Jewish 
> community
> in Poland?

As pretty much any history book on World War II will tell you, the 
Nazis made Jewish religious leaders compile a complete census of their 
community which was then entered into IBM punch cards. At that point 
people could be assigned to labour teams and eventually dispatched to 
the extermination camps. If the Jews failed to comply, they were 
murdered along with their families and another person was 'invited' to 
take on the task.

Poland was relatively easy since the Jewish community was far less 
integrated into the wider community. Look to Western Europe and you see 
that in places like Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium where ID cards 
and computerised censuses were available, they were key in identifying 
people for extermination. In other countries where they were not - such 
as France, not only were extermination rates lower, but the Nazis 
invested a great deal of time and effort in registering people in such 
systems.
>
> 	-	Did the lack of databases on personal ID (let alone religious
> affiliation) do anything to prevent or mitigate:
>
> 			-	The extermination of Hutus by Tutsis?
>
(Continue reading)

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Alex Butcher, ISC/ISYS | 1 Dec 2004 11:55
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RE: ID card bill now online


--On 01 December 2004 10:33 +0000 Owen Lewis <oml@...> wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004, Alex Butcher, ISC/ISYS wrote:
>> > Damn straight I do, if a rather less benign government rises to
>> power in
>> > the UK and I'm a member of one of its chosen scapegoat groups
>> or involved
>> > in protecting people who are. I'm not so naïve as to believe it
>> could never
>> > happen here (and indeed, historically, it has, depending on
>> your professed
>> > religion).
>>
>> I bought for airline reading purposes Peter ``I'm not mad, I just act,
>> sound and write as though I am'' Hitchen's book on liberty.  It's not
>> bad, as monomaniacal tracts go, and it recounts the interesting tale of
>> a jewish tailor living legitimately in Britain who was prosecuted
>> towards the end of the war for not having an ID card.

[snip]

> Hmmm.....
>
> I thought Alex was referring to the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre

I was mainly thinking of the Dutch and/or Belgian experience during WWII, 
and further back, persecution of Roman Catholics within what we now call 
Great Britain (i.e. deliberately excluding the emerald isle and its
(Continue reading)

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Owen Lewis | 1 Dec 2004 13:37

RE: ID card bill now online


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ukcrypto-admin@...
> [mailto:ukcrypto-admin@...]On Behalf Of Alex Butcher,
> ISC/ISYS
> Sent: 01 December 2004 10:55
> To: ukcrypto@...
> Subject: RE: ID card bill now online
>
>
>
>
> --On 01 December 2004 10:33 +0000 Owen Lewis <oml@...> wrote:
>
> >>
> > I thought Alex was referring to the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre
>
> I was mainly thinking of the Dutch and/or Belgian experience during WWII,
> and further back, persecution of Roman Catholics within what we now call
> Great Britain (i.e. deliberately excluding the emerald isle and its
> troubles) in the 17th century. Indeed, some relatively minor -
> but symbolic
> - discrimination still exists in UK law: the 1701 Act of Settlement which
> prohibits Catholics from becoming monarch.

The English prohibition on a Catholic monarch is older than 1701 I think
you'll find, going back at least to the Test Act of 1673. This was not
specifically directed at the monarch but barred for all public office any
who would not swear an oath of a form than no Roman Catholic could make
(hence the name of the Act); one specific intent (failed) of that Act was to
(Continue reading)

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Brian Beesley | 2 Dec 2004 10:43
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Re: ID card bill now online

On Wednesday 01 December 2004 12:37, Owen Lewis wrote:
> > - discrimination still exists in UK law: the 1701 Act of Settlement which
> > prohibits Catholics from becoming monarch.
>
> The English prohibition on a Catholic monarch is older than 1701 I think
> you'll find, going back at least to the Test Act of 1673. This was not
> specifically directed at the monarch but barred for all public office any
> who would not swear an oath of a form than no Roman Catholic could make
> (hence the name of the Act); one specific intent (failed) of that Act was
> to bar the Catholic James Duke of York from the Succession.

So we can blame the Battle of the Boyne and subsequently 300 years of 
intermittent Irish Troubles on bad law? Sounds like a great justification for 
rushing through a whole lot more bad laws...

>
> You make my point for me but no, you are wrong in respect of ID cards. It's
> not even government that will do for you; it's your neighbours and their
> lack of tolerance of what you are/represent. Forget ID cards but *never*
> forget that it's your neighbours who will do for you, every time.
>
ID cards aren't a problem in this respect (providing you don't have to 
carry/produce on demand) but the point is that they enable the database which 
makes it efficient to identify ALL your enemies.

A few split heads may be unpleasant but tolerable in a way which elimination 
of an entire ethnic/religious grouplng isn't. If you don't believe me, go ask 
a native Tasmanian. Naturally ID cards were not required to annihilate this 
group of people, but then they did all carry unambiguous identification marks 
by way of the colour of their skin.
(Continue reading)

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Owen Lewis | 2 Dec 2004 11:22

RE: ID card bill now online


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ukcrypto-admin@...
> [mailto:ukcrypto-admin@...]On Behalf Of Brian Beesley
> Sent: 02 December 2004 09:44
> To: ukcrypto@...
> Subject: Re: ID card bill now online
>
>
> On Wednesday 01 December 2004 12:37, Owen Lewis wrote:
> > > - discrimination still exists in UK law: the 1701 Act of
> Settlement which
> > > prohibits Catholics from becoming monarch.
> >
> > The English prohibition on a Catholic monarch is older than 1701 I think
> > you'll find, going back at least to the Test Act of 1673. This was not
> > specifically directed at the monarch but barred for all public
> office any
> > who would not swear an oath of a form than no Roman Catholic could make
> > (hence the name of the Act); one specific intent (failed) of
> that Act was
> > to bar the Catholic James Duke of York from the Succession.
>
> So we can blame the Battle of the Boyne and subsequently 300 years of
> intermittent Irish Troubles on bad law? Sounds like a great
> justification for
> rushing through a whole lot more bad laws...

What *are* you babbling about? Explain?
>
(Continue reading)

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Alex Butcher, ISC/ISYS | 1 Dec 2004 14:13
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RE: ID card bill now online


--On 01 December 2004 12:37 +0000 Owen Lewis <oml@...> wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ukcrypto-admin@...
>> [mailto:ukcrypto-admin@...]On Behalf Of Alex Butcher,
>> --On 01 December 2004 10:33 +0000 Owen Lewis <oml@...> wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> > I thought Alex was referring to the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre
>>
>> I was mainly thinking of the Dutch and/or Belgian experience during WWII,
>> and further back, persecution of Roman Catholics within what we now call
>> Great Britain (i.e. deliberately excluding the emerald isle and its
>> troubles) in the 17th century.

[snip]

> What they all have in common is that an high
> integrity assurance of personal ID has not been a factor in any of them.
> *Who* you are is unimportant. *What you are (or what you held to
> represent) is what brings out the tendency to mass murder.

Sure, which is why I'm no more worried by a printed ID card than I am about 
my employee ID badge, photo driving license, or my passport. My problems 
with the current scheme as proposed, is all the other stuff that is being 
quietly ignored by the masses in favour of the hyped card. It's a shame, 
IMHO, that even the Anti- campaign tends to play into Blunkett's hands by 
also focusing on the obvious and the tangible at the expensive of the rest.
(Continue reading)

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Owen Lewis | 1 Dec 2004 15:39

RE: ID card bill now online


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ukcrypto-admin@...
> [mailto:ukcrypto-admin@...]On Behalf Of Alex Butcher,
> ISC/ISYS
> Sent: 01 December 2004 13:14
> To: ukcrypto@...
> Subject: RE: ID card bill now online
>
>
>
>
> --On 01 December 2004 12:37 +0000 Owen Lewis <oml@...> wrote:
>
>
> >> ..... heck, given the Khmer Rouge's penchant for using
> the wearing
> >> of glasses as an indicator of being an intellectual, who'd care if they
> >> weren't?!
> >
> > You make my point for me but no, you are wrong in respect of ID cards.
> > It's not even government that will do for you; it's your neighbours and
> > their lack of tolerance of what you are/represent. Forget ID cards but
> > *never* forget that it's your neighbours who will do for you,
> every time.
>
> ...but at least having the option of being able to fib effectively about
> your ID gives you a fighting chance of being able to escape an oppressive
> regime and find safe harbour. Well, assuming the scapegoated
> groups aren't
(Continue reading)

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Brian Morrison | 1 Dec 2004 10:53
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Re: ID card bill now online

On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 09:42:55 +0000 in
20041201094255.GW3555@... Ian G Batten
<I.G.Batten@...> wrote:

>  [[ Blunkett is being represented in his legal actions by the wife of
>  the man who set up the ``independent'' inquiry into the visa scam. 
>  Remember this when he talks about ``safeguards'' and ``honesty''. ]]

Very interesting, I'm really not following this 'affair' with anything
like enough enthusiasm to dig this sort of thing up but I can't say I am
surprised.

--

-- 

Brian Morrison

bdm at fenrir dot org dot uk

GnuPG key ID DE32E5C5 - http://wwwkeys.uk.pgp.net/pgpnet/wwwkeys.html
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