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Steve McIntyre | 15 Oct 01:19
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Bits from the Debian CD team

Hi folks,

It's probably time for a quick update on what we've been up to
lately in terms of producing Debian CD and DVD and (!) BD images.

That will give the game away for the biggest change that has happened
lately - we're now producing some Blu-ray images alongside the
existing CD and DVD images with each weekly Lenny build. As a standard
Blu-ray disc will hold up to 25GB of data, that means that, for the
first time in several years, users should be able to fit all of the
packages for one architecture on a single disc. Woo!

The downside of adding yet another image type is that potentially we
could use up huge amounts more disk space and bandwidth on our central
servers and our mirrors to accommodate them. What I've done,
therefore, is start imposing limits on which images we will produce
each week and with Lenny when it ships. What we now have is (in
increasing order of size):

 * Business card and netinst CDs for all architectures (except s390),
   available for download as ISO, torrent and jigdo. As for Etch,
   we'll also have 2 multi-arch netinst CDs (i386/amd64/powerpc and
   alpha/hppa/ia64).

 * Full CD sets for all architectures:
   + i386, amd64 and source will all be available for download as ISO,
     torrent and jigdo
   + for powerpc we will create ISOs/torrents for the first 8 CDs
     only (with the rest as jigdo)
   + for other architectures we'll have ISOs/torrents for the first 3
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Frans Pop | 15 Oct 07:40

Re: Bits from the Debian CD team

On Wednesday 15 October 2008, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>  * Full CD sets for all architectures:
>    + i386, amd64 and source will all be available for download as ISO,
>      torrent and jigdo
>    + for powerpc we will create ISOs/torrents for the first 8 CDs
>      only (with the rest as jigdo)
>    + for other architectures we'll have ISOs/torrents for the first 3
>      CDs only (rest as jigdo)
>
>  * Full DVD sets for all architectures:
>    + i386, amd64 and source will all be available for download as ISO,
>      torrent and jigdo
>    + for other architectures we'll have ISOs/torrents for the first 1
>      DVD only (rest as jigdo)
>    + again, the show giveaway DVD: multi-arch i386/amd64/powerpc/source
>      containing as much as will fit on a single DVD

I agree completely with the necessity of doing this and thanks for adding 
the option to set separate limits for jigdo versus iso in debian-cd.

One consequence is that we will need to update the website to inform users 
about this, both end users and CD vendors.

For CD vendors we should IMO mention that they still can sell full CD sets 
for any architecture if they like. I also think it may be a good idea to 
provide a recommendation on [1] to offer both partial sets and full sets 
as I think currently quite a few vendors still only sell full CD sets.

For users I think it would be good to have some explanation that ISOs are 
partial sets with links to both an explanation and a link to the full
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Adrian von Bidder | 15 Oct 08:06
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Re: Bits from the Debian CD team

Hi,

Just spontaneous thoughts - if you've already discussed this to death, don't 
bother to reply. [if you do: cc's appreciated.]

On Wednesday 15 October 2008 01.23:34 Steve McIntyre wrote:
>  * Full CD sets for all architectures:
>    + i386, amd64 and source will all be available for download as ISO,
>      torrent and jigdo
>    + for powerpc we will create ISOs/torrents for the first 8 CDs
>      only (with the rest as jigdo)
>    + for other architectures we'll have ISOs/torrents for the first 3
>      CDs only (rest as jigdo)

I wonder why not do just the first few CDs for all arches, and not do source 
CDs at all?  (jigdo would still be provided.)

 * source: the license should be satisfied by the DVD image and probably the 
archive + jigdo, too, and people actually working with the sources tend to 
be people who work (at least in parallel) with testing/unstable sources, 
too, so we can assume net access.

 * binary: a basic KDE/GNOME/XFCE desktop environment and standard server 
(LAMP + Python + PostgreSQL?) should be on the isos (first three?) and 
referring to DVD and/or net for the rest (and there's Jigdo, too)?  
Discussions with various people shows that they often download all the 
images they see (sometimes including source) and don't know that they can 
as easily download the software from the net.  (... I think that, in 
general, the businesscard/netinst images should be more prominently 
advertised...)  If we only could have stats for "downloaded but never used"
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Frans Pop | 15 Oct 08:58

Re: Bits from the Debian CD team

On Wednesday 15 October 2008, Adrian von Bidder wrote:
>  * binary: a basic KDE/GNOME/XFCE desktop environment and standard
> server (LAMP + Python + PostgreSQL?) should be on the isos (first
> three?) and referring to DVD and/or net for the rest (and there's
> Jigdo, too)?

Quick comment: If you want to install basic KDE or Xfce (tasksel tasks) 
off the regular CD set (i.e. not the special KDE or Xfce CD images) you 
need at the very least the first 4/5 CDs.

If you're leave out the "basic" and want to also install other common KDE 
packages, you'll need 7 or 8 CDs. For example, kdiff3, ksensors and 
koffice are all on CD 7 (i386), which also means they just make it on the 
first DVD.
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Piotr Gęga | 15 Oct 08:13

Re: Bits from the Debian CD team

Steve McIntyre pisze:
> Hi folks,
> 
> It's probably time for a quick update on what we've been up to
> lately in terms of producing Debian CD and DVD and (!) BD images.
> 
> That will give the game away for the biggest change that has happened
> lately - we're now producing some Blu-ray images alongside the
> existing CD and DVD images with each weekly Lenny build. As a standard
> Blu-ray disc will hold up to 25GB of data, that means that, for the
> first time in several years, users should be able to fit all of the
> packages for one architecture on a single disc. Woo!
> 
> The downside of adding yet another image type is that potentially we
> could use up huge amounts more disk space and bandwidth on our central
> servers and our mirrors to accommodate them. What I've done,
> therefore, is start imposing limits on which images we will produce
> each week and with Lenny when it ships. What we now have is (in
> increasing order of size):
> 
>  * Business card and netinst CDs for all architectures (except s390),
>    available for download as ISO, torrent and jigdo. As for Etch,
>    we'll also have 2 multi-arch netinst CDs (i386/amd64/powerpc and
>    alpha/hppa/ia64).
> 
>  * Full CD sets for all architectures:
>    + i386, amd64 and source will all be available for download as ISO,
>      torrent and jigdo
>    + for powerpc we will create ISOs/torrents for the first 8 CDs
>      only (with the rest as jigdo)
(Continue reading)

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Andrew M.A. Cater | 15 Oct 08:32

Re: Bits from the Debian CD team

On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 12:23:34AM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> It's probably time for a quick update on what we've been up to
> lately in terms of producing Debian CD and DVD and (!) BD images.
> 
I keep saying I'll mirror these. I will get round to it soon :)
I already keep a Debian mirror handy so can probably help generating
images.

> 
> We're also going to be looking for testers very soon to help us verify
> the d-i RC1 and Lenny releases. If you'd like to help, please let us
> know.
> 

Yes please: are there any plans to do a "final final Etch" or do we not 
have to bother about this again. [You wait years for a Debian release 
and then you get two at once :) ]

> Cheers,
> -- 
> Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                steve <at> einval.com
> "When C++ is your hammer, everything looks like a thumb." -- Steven M. Haflich

AndyC
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Frans Pop | 15 Oct 10:19

Re: Bits from the Debian CD team

On Wednesday 15 October 2008, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> Yes please: are there any plans to do a "final final Etch" or do we not
> have to bother about this again.

There is no such thing: Etch will continue to get point releases while it 
has security support.
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Daniel Baumann | 15 Oct 19:36
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Re: Bits from the Debian CD team

Steve McIntyre wrote:
> Daniel Baumann nd the rest of the debian-live team are also working on
> official live images that we'll release with Lenny for the first
> time. I've got some ideas of what he's planning in terms of options,
> but I'll let him tell you in more detail (nudge, nudge *grin*).

we'll be following up on that soon with more details, beta2 release
(unfortunately with some weeks delay) scheduled for beginning of next week.

-- 
Address:        Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist
Email:          daniel.baumann <at> panthera-systems.net
Internet:       http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/

--

-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-live-request <at> lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster <at> lists.debian.org
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Matt Taggart | 16 Oct 11:02
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Re: Bits from the Debian CD team

> It's probably time for a quick update on what we've been up to
> lately in terms of producing Debian CD and DVD and (!) BD images.
> 
> That will give the game away for the biggest change that has happened
> lately - we're now producing some Blu-ray images alongside the
> existing CD and DVD images with each weekly Lenny build. As a standard
> Blu-ray disc will hold up to 25GB of data, that means that, for the
> first time in several years, users should be able to fit all of the
> packages for one architecture on a single disc. Woo!

This reminds me that I never followed up on this email about image sizes

http://lists.debian.org/debian-cd/2007/04/msg00072.html

The images sizes in that email are probably out of date, but the questions 
are still relevant:

1) should the images be better optimized for media sizes, both the various 
optical media but also usb thumb drives? (side note, I bet you can get 
surplus small thumb drives for _really_ cheap now, it would be neat to be 
able to give away debian on them)
2) How are we doing on current image sizes and how they relate to the 
physical media sizes?
3) As Joey suggested, if there is extra room on the i386 netinst could it 
contain extra kernels? maybe this has already been solved? I didn't check.
4) could you make multi-arch businesscards of i386 and amd64?
5) could you make multi-arch mini-CDs of i386/amd64/ppc by combining
   their businesscard images?

Thanks,
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Frans Pop | 17 Oct 18:56

Re: Bits from the Debian CD team

On Thursday 16 October 2008, Matt Taggart wrote:
> 1) should the images be better optimized for media sizes, both the
> various optical media but also usb thumb drives? (side note, I bet you
> can get surplus small thumb drives for _really_ cheap now, it would be
> neat to be able to give away debian on them)

This should be possible without any problem. debian-cd can create ISO 
images of any size if you care to tweak it a bit and you can trivially 
combine that with the hd-media images.
Only gotcha is that hd-media suffers more than other installation methods 
from the persistent device naming issue.

> 2) How are we doing on current image sizes and how they relate to the
> physical media sizes?

Standard CD images are limited to 680MB while some have a bit higher 
capacity.
But in general all images are filled up to their defined capacity at build 
time. There is no longer any wasted space.

> 3) As Joey suggested, if there is extra room on the i386 netinst could
> it contain extra kernels? maybe this has already been solved? I didn't
> check.

netinst contains 486 and 686 kernel. What others would you want?
Also, define "room". A netinst could in theory grow to 680MB, but that 
would rather defeat its purpose. The used to be 120MB, but with G-I and 
686 kernel and other general package growth we're currently at 155MB.

> 4) could you make multi-arch businesscards of i386 and amd64?
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