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Tiago Bortoletto Vaz | 19 Aug 01:08
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[tiago <at> debian-ba.org: Re: New name: Call for opinions]

----- Forwarded message from Tiago Bortoletto Vaz <tiago <at> debian-ba.org> -----

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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 11:21:30 -0300
From: Tiago Bortoletto Vaz <tiago <at> debian-ba.org>
To: Andreas Tille <tillea <at> rki.de>
Cc: Custom Debian Distributions <debian-custom <at> lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: New name: Call for opinions
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01)
X-Mailing-List: <debian-custom <at> lists.debian.org> archive/latest/2558

Hi Andreas,

On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 04:11:31AM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I would like to hear opinons about the new naming proposal given at
>
>     http://wiki.debian.org/CDDNamingProposals#head-7bb1ae330046f9d0720b77e76d6ee7aa992b754f
>
> So I think we should go on renaming waht formerly used to be
> Custom Debian Distributions to
>
>        Debian Integrated Solutions

I like the idea of switching to" Solution" and leaving "Distribution"
here. In fact Distribution is a very strong term that can not be
banalized as it has been nowadays done.
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Andreas Tille | 25 Aug 09:59
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Re: [tiago <at> debian-ba.org: Re: New name: Call for opinions]

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008, Tiago Bortoletto Vaz wrote:

>>        Debian Integrated Solutions
>
> I like the idea of switching to" Solution" and leaving "Distribution"
> here. In fact Distribution is a very strong term that can not be
> banalized as it has been nowadays done.

Yes, this was the idea.

> However, I guess you should try to say in few words that a DISh is a
> kind of specific purpose solution instead of a general purpose one. I
> can't imagine anything better now (my english is very limited) but maybe
> using words like specific/purpose/oriented or so would give us a more
> adequate name

Well, I agree in principle, but I'm afraid that this is to much for a
name.  IMHO we should mention this in the definition / explanation of
the name.  The main idea was to get rid of a misleading name and "Solution"
is something you have at least no wrong asusmptions about.  At worst
if it says nothing to you, you might start reading the docs if you
are curious.  This is better than just going with a wrong assumption
without further reading.

> Hmm... Now reading all suggestions on wiki I have my 2 cents:
>
> Debian SIG Solution (Debian's Special Interest Group Solution)
>
> What do you think?
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Tiago Bortoletto Vaz | 25 Aug 19:43
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Re: [tiago <at> debian-ba.org: Re: New name: Call for opinions]

Hi Andreas,

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 09:59:17AM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Aug 2008, Tiago Bortoletto Vaz wrote:
>
>>>        Debian Integrated Solutions
>>
>> I like the idea of switching to" Solution" and leaving "Distribution"
>> here. In fact Distribution is a very strong term that can not be
>> banalized as it has been nowadays done.
>
> Yes, this was the idea.
>
>> However, I guess you should try to say in few words that a DISh is a
>> kind of specific purpose solution instead of a general purpose one. I
>> can't imagine anything better now (my english is very limited) but maybe
>> using words like specific/purpose/oriented or so would give us a more
>> adequate name
>
> Well, I agree in principle, but I'm afraid that this is to much for a
> name.  IMHO we should mention this in the definition / explanation of
> the name.  The main idea was to get rid of a misleading name and "Solution"
> is something you have at least no wrong asusmptions about.  At worst
> if it says nothing to you, you might start reading the docs if you
> are curious.  This is better than just going with a wrong assumption
> without further reading.

I understand and agree that Debian SIG Solution is too big. However, I
would like to see something that give the users an idea about what we
are talking about - and for me the "Integrated" term doens't say this.
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Andreas Tille | 25 Aug 22:53
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Re: [tiago <at> debian-ba.org: Re: New name: Call for opinions]

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008, Tiago Bortoletto Vaz wrote:

> I understand and agree that Debian SIG Solution is too big. However, I
> would like to see something that give the users an idea about what we
> are talking about - and for me the "Integrated" term doens't say this.
> Of course reading the docs people can get more info about it, but IMO
> it's very important to have the main idea in the name. (ok, my english
> is bad and maybe english people get the right idea from "Integrated").

Well, Bdale immediately raised the issue that integrated can mean a
lot of things - I admit, it is a buzzword.  And I agree that the
name does not say so much.  But at least it does not tell a false
thing and forces interested people to read on.

Does a name really need to say something.  What says the name

      Debian
      Sun    (double meaning is intended)
      Tiago

A name is just a tag you put on a thing that exists somehow.  We have
to define what we mean first and then tag it with the name we agreed to.

> Ugh... I noted you have been patient on this. In fact is a very annoying
> - but necessary - discussion. Keep going :) I personally don't like DIS,
> but actually it's much better than CDD, so we are improving something
> here.

You don't like it?  Fine.  Last month I solved this kind of issues by
offereing a beer / whatever at DebConf.  Feel invited to have a drink
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Holger Levsen | 26 Aug 11:27

Re: [tiago <at> debian-ba.org: Re: New name: Call for opinions]

Hi Andreas,

On Monday 25 August 2008 22:53, Andreas Tille wrote:
> Does a name really need to say something.  What says the name
>
>       Debian
>       Sun    (double meaning is intended)
>       Tiago
>
> A name is just a tag you put on a thing that exists somehow.  We have
> to define what we mean first and then tag it with the name we agreed to.

I'm getting a bit annoyed by your repeatatly stated attitude, that the name 
doesnt really matter, as long as its not CDD. Your main argument for this 
seems to be that any name can be misunderstood.

If this were true, why change the name at all?

IMHO the name DIS has a lot of potential to become as misunderstood as CDD. As 
said in my blogpost I posted here, i dont think neither Debian, nor Debian 
Edu or Debian Med is a _solution_. Thus, by marketing them as such (and this 
is what a name is also used for very much) we will harm Debian (Edu|Med): 
people will install it and find out, that it's not a real solution, "only" 
something to base a solution on.

(You said in another reply we could use versioning to convey the message that 
our solution might not be a real solution yet. I wonder how you think that 
should work: Debian will release 5.0 soon, Debian Edu probably 4.0 or also 
5.0....)
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Andreas Tille | 26 Aug 22:42
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Re: [tiago <at> debian-ba.org: Re: New name: Call for opinions]

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008, Holger Levsen wrote:

> I'm getting a bit annoyed by your repeatatly stated attitude, that the name
> doesnt really matter, as long as its not CDD. Your main argument for this
> seems to be that any name can be misunderstood.

Not really.  I just wanted to disprove the argumant that a name should
contain an explanation.  In many cases it does not.  It is fine for me
if this can be approached but this is not a general feature of a name.

>> You don't like it?  Fine.  Last month I solved this kind of issues by
>> offereing a beer / whatever at DebConf.  Feel invited to have a drink
>> at my account at next DebConf. ;-)
>
> Again, what do you want to say with this? That we should all get drunk and not
> care anymore?

You noticed the smiley, right?

> It seems (well, you stated it explicitly..) you don't like naming discussions,
> I guess thats why you want them to be short

Yes.

> and thats why you offer these beers.

NO!!  It's just that I really liked to have some drinks with people at
DebConf and I'm desperately seeking for reasons to continue with this! ;-))

> Believe me, if a bad name is choosen, we will have many and long naming
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Free Ekanayaka | 27 Aug 17:44
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Re: [tiago <at> debian-ba.org: Re: New name: Call for opinions]

|--==> On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 22:42:47 +0200 (CEST), Andreas Tille <tillea <at> rki.de> said:

  AT> On Tue, 26 Aug 2008, Holger Levsen wrote:
  >>I'm getting a bit annoyed by your repeatatly stated attitude, that the name
  >>doesnt really matter, as long as its not CDD. Your main argument for this
  >>seems to be that any name can be misunderstood.

  AT> Not really.  I just wanted to disprove the argumant that a name should
  AT> contain an explanation.  In many cases it does not.  It is fine for me
  AT> if this can be approached but this is not a general feature of a name.

You're right, but I feel that if a project's name does not provide a
precise definition of the project itself, than it should be
_completely_ unrelated to it, and not provide an approximate
definition.

I think a good example of a project's name completely unrelated with
the topic of the project is "Debian itself, which is a contraction of
the names of Debra and Ian Murdock, who founded the project. [0]

So if we want to go for a not-fully-explaining name, I would suggest
to pick something of completely unrelated, maybe followed by
"subtitle" like a one-line definition of the type Holger proposed.

By the way I've talked about this topic with Daniel James (my partner
at 64studio.com), and we both agreed that if we are seeking for a name
easier to be marketed, and easier to understand for non-tech people,
then we should probably avoid acronyms and a rather go for full
expressions like Debian Pure Blend or Debian Remix (Daniel just added
this last proposal the CDDNamingProposals wiki page).
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Tiago Bortoletto Vaz | 28 Aug 13:49
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Re: New name: Call for opinions

Hi,

On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 11:27:55AM +0200, Holger Levsen wrote:

[...]

> Anyway, to not only critice let me suggest two names: "Compilation Inside 
> Debian" (CID) (Debian integrated Compilation sounds like dick) or "Debian 
> Remixed Distribution" (DRD). A thesaurus should be helpful to find other 
> iterations of the same meme. (BTW, I dont think we have to go for a three 
> letter acronym, two, four, five or six letters are also entirely valid 
> options :-)

I think these last diverging proposals "Distribution x Solution",
"Remixed x Integrated" and so on, just confirms that we don't have
enough understanding of what is (or should be) a ${CDD} (sorry Andreas,
but I don't feel ready to use DIS).

IMHO Debian-Edu well fits in "Solution", but not Debian-Med, that fits
in "Integrated".

Now I would like to see (and join) into an effort to finish the first
${CDD} formal specification before any renaming. Andreas has done a
great work on this and it's a good time to help him there[0].

[0] http://cdd.alioth.debian.org/cdd/

Regards,

--
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