gmane.linux.debian.devel.pkg-utopia

PCMan | 14 Nov 16:02

Bug#500119: Better way to avoid both knetworkmanager and nm-applet are started in parallel

I agreed with the proposal from Andrew.
That's a really simple and effective solution which won't break anything.
Please refer to the desktop entry spec.
http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/ar01s05.html
The NotShowIn solution, I think, is the best way to solve the problem.
In this way knetwork-manager won't be started in gnome, and nm-applet
won't be started in KDE.
The only pitfall is, if a user install both of them, and runs XFCE,
both of them will be started.
So, you can make nm-applet NotShowIn KDE, and make knetwork-manager
OnlyShowIn KDE.
I this way, KDE only starts knetwork-manager, and other desktpo
environments, such as XFCE and LXDE, can start nm-applet.
There are no clashes, and all users will be very happy.
After all, nm-applet is not a gnome-specific program at all even when
it has 'gnome' in its package name.
The only gnome things it uses are PolicyKit and keyring.
So, it's very suitable for other desktops, too.

Please let this bug be fixed. We users from desktop environments other
than KDE and GNOME really need this.

Michael Biebl | 14 Nov 21:02

Bug#500119: [Pkg-utopia-maintainers] Bug#500119: Better way to avoid both knetworkmanager and nm-applet are started in parallel

PCMan wrote:
> I agreed with the proposal from Andrew.
> That's a really simple and effective solution which won't break anything.
> Please refer to the desktop entry spec.
> http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/ar01s05.html
> The NotShowIn solution, I think, is the best way to solve the problem.
> In this way knetwork-manager won't be started in gnome, and nm-applet
> won't be started in KDE.
> The only pitfall is, if a user install both of them, and runs XFCE,
> both of them will be started.
> So, you can make nm-applet NotShowIn KDE, and make knetwork-manager
> OnlyShowIn KDE.

knetworkmanager-autostart.desktop already has OnlyShowIn=KDE;
And as PCman correctly stated, I don't think we need to change that to
NotShowIn=GNOME;

So the only change would be in nm-applet.desktop to NotShowIn=KDE.
I guess this change would be fine, although it's unlikely that this fix
will make it into lenny unfortunately (unless you help me to persuade
the RMs that this change is important enough for granting a freeze
exception)

Andrew, do you also need/want the change to the nm-editor.desktop file?

Under GNOME, nm-editor is listed in the Settings menu, does LXDE (or
XFCE) have a similar concept of a config menu or config application?

If not, I'd rather have it not listed in the regular applications menu,
given that nm-editor has been deprecated and will be gone in 0.7

(Continue reading)

Andrew Lee | 15 Nov 09:11

Bug#500119: [Pkg-utopia-maintainers] Bug#500119: Better way to avoid both knetworkmanager and nm-applet are started in parallel

Cc'ed this to debian-boot and debian-release.

Dear RMs,

This is only one line change in nm-applet.desktop which benefit other
Window Managers and Desktops user. Please accept this change into Lenny.

Michael Biebl wrote:
> So the only change would be in nm-applet.desktop to NotShowIn=KDE.
> I guess this change would be fine, although it's unlikely that this fix
> will make it into lenny unfortunately (unless you help me to persuade
> the RMs that this change is important enough for granting a freeze
> exception)

We are discussing to have xfce/lxde cd image with lenny RC2 release on
debian-book and debian-cd. And I mentioned that XFCE and LXDE also need
wifi GUI tool such as network-manager. It's good that only a change in
nm-applet.desktop file would make network-manager works automaticlly in
a various Window Managers, XFCE and LXDE for our users.

> Andrew, do you also need/want the change to the nm-editor.desktop file?

No, as you well explaned. :)

Cheers,

-Andrew

Adeodato Simó | 24 Nov 22:34

Bug#500119: Bug#500119: Better way to avoid both knetworkmanager and nm-applet are started in parallel

* Andrew Lee [Sat, 15 Nov 2008 16:11:18 +0800]:

> Cc'ed this to debian-boot and debian-release.

> Dear RMs,

> This is only one line change in nm-applet.desktop which benefit other
> Window Managers and Desktops user. Please accept this change into Lenny.

Has somebody verified that the change ensures it doesn't get started in
KDE, just as with OnlyShownIn=GNOME? Or do you have first-hand knowledge
of that? In any of those case, I'm ok with that one change.

Cheers,

> Michael Biebl wrote:
> > So the only change would be in nm-applet.desktop to NotShowIn=KDE.
> > I guess this change would be fine, although it's unlikely that this fix
> > will make it into lenny unfortunately (unless you help me to persuade
> > the RMs that this change is important enough for granting a freeze
> > exception)

> We are discussing to have xfce/lxde cd image with lenny RC2 release on
> debian-book and debian-cd. And I mentioned that XFCE and LXDE also need
> wifi GUI tool such as network-manager. It's good that only a change in
> nm-applet.desktop file would make network-manager works automaticlly in
> a various Window Managers, XFCE and LXDE for our users.

> > Andrew, do you also need/want the change to the nm-editor.desktop file?

(Continue reading)

Michael Biebl | 24 Nov 22:50

Bug#500119: Bug#500119: Better way to avoid both knetworkmanager and nm-applet are started in parallel

Quoting Adeodato Simó <dato <at> net.com.org.es>:

> * Andrew Lee [Sat, 15 Nov 2008 16:11:18 +0800]:
>
>> Cc'ed this to debian-boot and debian-release.
>
>> Dear RMs,
>
>> This is only one line change in nm-applet.desktop which benefit other
>> Window Managers and Desktops user. Please accept this change into Lenny.
>
> Has somebody verified that the change ensures it doesn't get started in
> KDE, just as with OnlyShownIn=GNOME? Or do you have first-hand knowledge
> of that? In any of those case, I'm ok with that one change.
>

nm-applet.desktop is installed according to the fd.o autostart spec  
(into /etc/xdg/autostart).

KDE3 does *not* support this spec (KDE4 does though), so it is  
impossible that nm-applet is autostarted in KDE. It might be  
autostarted in KDE4 though (I'd have to verify that, I don't know if  
KDE4 uses the same session identifier as KDE3 does). But as we don't  
ship KDE4 as desktop in lenny (only the libs), we are safe on this side.

Matter of fact, we could even go as far and remove the
OnlyShownIn=GNOME
line altogether for lenny.

Cheers,

(Continue reading)

PCMan | 25 Nov 00:45

Re: Bug#500119: [Pkg-utopia-maintainers] Bug#500119: Better way to avoid both knetworkmanager and nm-applet are started in parallel

Thank you all for handling this bug report.
I have related knowledge and can confirm the correctness of this fix.
Please refer to the spec:
http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/ar01s05.html
<quote>
OnlyShowIn, NotShowIn
A list of strings identifying the environments that should display/not
display a given desktop entry. Only one of these keys, either
OnlyShowIn or NotShowIn, may appear in a group (for possible values
see the Desktop Menu Specification).
</quote>
So, apparently, this fix MUST work. Otherwise, it's definitely a
serious KDE4 bug.
Cheers!

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 5:34 AM, Adeodato Simó <dato <at> net.com.org.es> wrote:
> * Andrew Lee [Sat, 15 Nov 2008 16:11:18 +0800]:
>
>> Cc'ed this to debian-boot and debian-release.
>
>> Dear RMs,
>
>> This is only one line change in nm-applet.desktop which benefit other
>> Window Managers and Desktops user. Please accept this change into Lenny.
>
> Has somebody verified that the change ensures it doesn't get started in
> KDE, just as with OnlyShownIn=GNOME? Or do you have first-hand knowledge
> of that? In any of those case, I'm ok with that one change.
>
> Cheers,

(Continue reading)

Otavio Salvador | 25 Nov 00:33

Bug#500119: [Pkg-utopia-maintainers] Bug#500119: Better way to avoid both knetworkmanager and nm-applet are started in parallel

Adeodato Simó <dato <at> net.com.org.es> writes:

> * Andrew Lee [Sat, 15 Nov 2008 16:11:18 +0800]:
>
>> Cc'ed this to debian-boot and debian-release.
>
>> Dear RMs,
>
>> This is only one line change in nm-applet.desktop which benefit other
>> Window Managers and Desktops user. Please accept this change into Lenny.
>
> Has somebody verified that the change ensures it doesn't get started in
> KDE, just as with OnlyShownIn=GNOME? Or do you have first-hand knowledge
> of that? In any of those case, I'm ok with that one change.

This is somewhat complicate to decide. I see two sides in this
question:

 1) adding Network Manager for LXDE we'll give a more ready to use
 desktop for laptop users and give some extra bonus for regular users;

 2) LXDE seems to fit very well with users wanting a low-resource
 environment and Network Manager is not thin (it bring a lot of
 libraries and consumes resources);

So personally I'm unsure which is the best option.

>From my POV I believe we shouldn't add Network Manager on lxde-desktop
task since it's quite easy to do it and we can make the installation
fat for a user that is limited regarting space, memory and cpu power.

(Continue reading)

PCMan | 25 Nov 08:50

Bug#500119: [Pkg-utopia-maintainers] Bug#500119: Better way to avoid both knetworkmanager and nm-applet are started in parallel

If you don't install nm and nm-applet, it doesn't matter what's inside
nm-applet.desktop.
Fixing the incorrect desktop file won't break any existing things and
has no relationship with your question. If a user don't want the
dependencies brought by nm, he/she shouldn't get it installed.
Besides, the reason why nm has so many dependencies is understandable.
To get your Linux desktop correctly connected to the internet is very
difficult and can be very complicated. That's why nm is so
complicated. So personally I think nm is still an acceptable option
even for lightweight desktops since it works quite well.
Some might argue that wicd can do this well and it's small, too.
However, it's written in python, and that "small" program need python
and its libs, which are not thin at all.
Network manager is still a reasonable and sensible option if you need
to manage your connections with GUI.

The point is, whether the installer for lxde flavor includes nm or
not, it'll never works for the users even when they really want to use
it and install nm manually. That's why this fix is definitely needed.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 7:33 AM, Otavio Salvador <otavio <at> debian.org> wrote:
> Adeodato Simó <dato <at> net.com.org.es> writes:
>
>> * Andrew Lee [Sat, 15 Nov 2008 16:11:18 +0800]:
>>
>>> Cc'ed this to debian-boot and debian-release.
>>
>>> Dear RMs,
>>
>>> This is only one line change in nm-applet.desktop which benefit other

(Continue reading)

Otavio Salvador | 25 Nov 12:37

Bug#500119: Bug#500119: Better way to avoid both knetworkmanager and nm-applet are started in parallel

PCMan <pcman.tw <at> gmail.com> writes:

> If you don't install nm and nm-applet, it doesn't matter what's inside
> nm-applet.desktop.
> Fixing the incorrect desktop file won't break any existing things and
> has no relationship with your question. If a user don't want the
> dependencies brought by nm, he/she shouldn't get it installed.
> Besides, the reason why nm has so many dependencies is understandable.
> To get your Linux desktop correctly connected to the internet is very
> difficult and can be very complicated. That's why nm is so
> complicated. So personally I think nm is still an acceptable option
> even for lightweight desktops since it works quite well.
> Some might argue that wicd can do this well and it's small, too.
> However, it's written in python, and that "small" program need python
> and its libs, which are not thin at all.
> Network manager is still a reasonable and sensible option if you need
> to manage your connections with GUI.

The .desktop change of nm-applet I'm ok with. And this is really
recommended to be done to allow it to be used by other compatible desktops.

> The point is, whether the installer for lxde flavor includes nm or
> not, it'll never works for the users even when they really want to use
> it and install nm manually. That's why this fix is definitely needed.

Agree.

But install it in tasksel is a completely different history.

> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 7:33 AM, Otavio Salvador <otavio <at> debian.org> wrote:

(Continue reading)

Andrew Lee | 25 Nov 09:54

Bug#500119: [Pkg-utopia-maintainers] Bug#500119: Better way to avoid both knetworkmanager and nm-applet are started in parallel

Hello Otavio,

Otavio Salvador wrote:
> This is somewhat complicate to decide. I see two sides in this
> question:
> 
>  1) adding Network Manager for LXDE we'll give a more ready to use
>  desktop for laptop users and give some extra bonus for regular users;
> 
>  2) LXDE seems to fit very well with users wanting a low-resource
>  environment and Network Manager is not thin (it bring a lot of
>  libraries and consumes resources);
> 
> So personally I'm unsure which is the best option.

I agree with you. We need disscuss this to have a best option. And it
shouldn't be related in #500119, but in tasksel. I will reply in another
email without cc to 500119 <at> bugs.debian.org

Are we agreed to get #500119 fixed in lenny? At least our users who
install network-manager-gnome manually on their custom system can
benefit from this fix.

-Andrew

Andrew Lee | 25 Nov 10:37

Bug#500119: [Pkg-utopia-maintainers] Bug#500119: Better way to avoid both knetworkmanager and nm-applet are started in parallel

Andrew Lee wrote:
> Are we agreed to get #500119 fixed in lenny? At least our users who
> install network-manager-gnome manually on their custom system can
> benefit from this fix.

Additional comments from Xfce maintainer:
15:23 -!- Irssi: Join to #debian-xfce was synced in 1 secs
15:23 < AndrewLee> hello
15:46 < AndrewLee> Any xfce maintainer here?
15:47 < Corsac> yup, but see topic
15:47 < Corsac> and I'm livin
16:15 < AndrewLee> Corsac: Does xfce-desktop task included a wifi
configuration GUI?
16:19 < AndrewLee> I'd like to change a line in nm-applet.desktop to
make it works for all kind windowmanager and desktop enviroment except
in KDE.
16:19 < AndrewLee> So I'd like to ask xfce maintainer if this change is
okay to xfce?
16:47 < Corsac> no we don't include anything atm
16:47 < Corsac> I'm testing wicd at the moment, which seems to work fine
16:47 < Corsac> and upstream is kind-of working on airconfig, which
works fine too
16:47 < Corsac> but that will be for squeeze
16:48 < Corsac> are you working on lenny or squeeze for that change?
16:48 < Corsac> (anyway, I still think you should drop the
OnlyShowIn=GNOME for the moment)
16:48 < Corsac> not sure if that means it'll be autostarted by Xfce, though
16:49 < Corsac> what would be nice is that it appears in the potentially
 autostarted apps, but isn't selected by default, so user has the choice
16:49 < Corsac> but I'm not sure it's possible

(Continue reading)

Otavio Salvador | 25 Nov 12:38

Bug#500119: [Pkg-utopia-maintainers] Bug#500119: Better way to avoid both knetworkmanager and nm-applet are started in parallel

Andrew Lee <andrew <at> linux.org.tw> writes:

> Hello Otavio,
>
> Otavio Salvador wrote:
>> This is somewhat complicate to decide. I see two sides in this
>> question:
>> 
>>  1) adding Network Manager for LXDE we'll give a more ready to use
>>  desktop for laptop users and give some extra bonus for regular users;
>> 
>>  2) LXDE seems to fit very well with users wanting a low-resource
>>  environment and Network Manager is not thin (it bring a lot of
>>  libraries and consumes resources);
>> 
>> So personally I'm unsure which is the best option.
>
> I agree with you. We need disscuss this to have a best option. And it
> shouldn't be related in #500119, but in tasksel. I will reply in another
> email without cc to 500119 <at> bugs.debian.org
>
> Are we agreed to get #500119 fixed in lenny? At least our users who
> install network-manager-gnome manually on their custom system can
> benefit from this fix.

Yes. I fully agree to get it fixed in lenny and that will allow more
freedom for our users.

I'm waiting for your reply about the tasksel inclusion or not...

(Continue reading)

Andrew Lee | 25 Nov 10:25

network-manager for laptop users who install desktop task as well.

Dear folks,

Otavio Salvador wrote:
> This is somewhat complicate to decide. I see two sides in this
> question:
> 
>  1) adding Network Manager for LXDE we'll give a more ready to use
>  desktop for laptop users and give some extra bonus for regular users;
> 
>  2) LXDE seems to fit very well with users wanting a low-resource
>  environment and Network Manager is not thin (it bring a lot of
>  libraries and consumes resources);
> 
> So personally I'm unsure which is the best option.

These lightweight desktops could mostly been used for to the netbook
users and also *old* computer users. User who wants network-manager
installed are mostly a laptop user, not an old computer user.

So the best way to solve this probably should make network-manager
installed only for laptop users who also choose a desktop task.

I believe GNOME/KDE users also don't need network-manager if they do not
have a wifi interface. :)

So should we separate network-manager to laptop-desktop task in tasksel?

>>From my POV I believe we shouldn't add Network Manager on lxde-desktop
> task since it's quite easy to do it and we can make the installation
> fat for a user that is limited regarting space, memory and cpu power.

(Continue reading)

Otavio Salvador | 25 Nov 12:44

Re: network-manager for laptop users who install desktop task as well.

Andrew Lee <andrew <at> linux.org.tw> writes:

> Dear folks,
>
> Otavio Salvador wrote:
>> This is somewhat complicate to decide. I see two sides in this
>> question:
>> 
>>  1) adding Network Manager for LXDE we'll give a more ready to use
>>  desktop for laptop users and give some extra bonus for regular users;
>> 
>>  2) LXDE seems to fit very well with users wanting a low-resource
>>  environment and Network Manager is not thin (it bring a lot of
>>  libraries and consumes resources);
>> 
>> So personally I'm unsure which is the best option.
>
> These lightweight desktops could mostly been used for to the netbook
> users and also *old* computer users. User who wants network-manager
> installed are mostly a laptop user, not an old computer user.
>
> So the best way to solve this probably should make network-manager
> installed only for laptop users who also choose a desktop task.
>
> I believe GNOME/KDE users also don't need network-manager if they do not
> have a wifi interface. :)
>
> So should we separate network-manager to laptop-desktop task in tasksel?

If we add it to laptop-desktop it will be installed in KDE too. What

(Continue reading)

Yves-Alexis Perez | 26 Nov 23:00

Re: network-manager for laptop users who install desktop task as well.

On mar, 2008-11-25 at 17:25 +0800, Andrew Lee wrote:
> I just tested Frans' Lenny D-I test build for LXDE+Xfce CD image with
> LXDE installation. After installation, I found wicd is not available
> in
> lenny, so I installed network-manager manually, and it didn't bring
> too
> much additional package installed. So I think network-manager-gnome is
> currently the best solution with LXDE in Lenny.

Xfce task currently installs gconf and some GNOME stuff because of gdm
(wanted) and a weird dependency “bug” bringing notification-daemon
because of the recommends from libnotify1a. But on a desktop with only
Xfce and slim, for example (so no GNOME stuff), it's way to invasive to
bring network-manager-gnome. Wicd works fine on unstable, so I'm
considering it for squeeze (that or airconfig, an Xfce project for the
wlan management, which may evolve in a network-manager frontend).

Cheers,
--

-- 
Yves-Alexis

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