gmane.linux.debian.devel.project

Baz | 28 Nov 22:00

Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 11:39 AM, Russ Allbery <rra <at> debian.org> wrote:

martin f krafft <madduck <at> debian.org> writes:

> I maintain that informing interested parties up front about an age
> requirement in a job *offer*/ad is not the same as turning down (or
> firing) someone for _no other_ reason than age.

If you act on that restriction, I believe it is in the United States. The
impression I have is that this is black letter law in the US. It is not a
requirement of discrimination law in the US in general that the
discrimination be the *only* reason for an employment choice, only that
the bias be discriminatory, and stating it as a requirement certainly
meets the basic requirement there.

It's doubly illegal around here -- age discrimination is a violation of
California's Fair Employment and Housing Act as well as the federal
statute.

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It's only going to take one over-zealous U.S. attorney, to get hold of this and run with it. It doesn't necessarily matter if it's legal discrimination. What matters is, the Debian Project can't afford the legal exposure; that is, defending itself legally. Some on this list have already expressed utter dismay at what they regard as obvious discrimination. I concur. Please see the recent Craigslist discrimination suit out of Chicago. Yes, Craigslist won, but at a very high monetary cost. Unfortunately, the Debian Project doesn't have such reserves.

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Russ Allbery | 29 Nov 12:29

Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich

Baz <bazciscor <at> gmail.com> writes:

> It's only going to take one over-zealous U.S. attorney, to get hold of
> this and run with it.  It doesn't necessarily matter if it's legal
> discrimination.  What matters is, the Debian Project can't afford the
> legal exposure; that is, defending itself legally.

I don't see any liability for the Debian Project here.  For one thing,
there's no such thing, legally.  For another, it's a posting to a mailing
list, not an official project statement.  Anyone can of course sue over
anything, but I don't think there's a case.  (IANAL.)

My comments were solely intended to point out the possible cultural
difference and the fact that many people in the US will have a strong
reaction to this sort of thing.  (I'm one of them.  Age discrimination
makes me extremely angry.)  They were not intended to imply that there's
some sort of risk here to Debian.  I don't believe there is.

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Russ Allbery (rra <at> debian.org)               <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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Mark Brown | 1 Dec 14:05

Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich

On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 03:29:11AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:

> My comments were solely intended to point out the possible cultural
> difference and the fact that many people in the US will have a strong
> reaction to this sort of thing.  (I'm one of them.  Age discrimination
> makes me extremely angry.)  They were not intended to imply that there's
> some sort of risk here to Debian.  I don't believe there is.

FWIW similar issues apply in most of Europe too.

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Charles Plessy | 1 Dec 14:42

Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich

Le Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 01:05:07PM +0000, Mark Brown a écrit :
> 
> FWIW similar issues apply in most of Europe too.

Thank you for the information. For Antartica, the situation of discrimination
has rapidly and positively evolved and I am proud to announce to the Project
that in the French territories, women are allowed to apply for a job since a
few years ago.

Do we have DDs in Oceania, South America, Africa and Asia who can report about
the situation of discrimination on their continent so that we can integrate
this information to better manage our Project?

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan
(please do not take my annoyed reaction personnaly)

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George Danchev | 1 Dec 20:35

Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich

On Monday 01 December 2008 15:42:20 Charles Plessy wrote:
> Le Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 01:05:07PM +0000, Mark Brown a écrit :
> > FWIW similar issues apply in most of Europe too.
>
> Thank you for the information. For Antartica, the situation of
> discrimination has rapidly and positively evolved and I am proud to
> announce to the Project that in the French territories, women are allowed
> to apply for a job since a few years ago.
>
> Do we have DDs in Oceania, South America, Africa and Asia who can report
> about the situation of discrimination on their continent so that we can
> integrate this information to better manage our Project?

 Hehe. To be honest, it is way easier for me to think of Debian as a 
virtual multi-cultural country which has its own constitution, laws and 
habits, budget and resources, population (users and developers), gross 
domestic product (official releases), elections, and leader. Since I doubt 
anybody knows how to make so many different cultures to co-exist together 
flawlessly some dissensions enter the scene from time to time just to prove 
that this is multi-cultural country after all. The paradox is that if you try 
to import some tons of tolerance to such a country in order to alleviate 
these dissensions, you risk to fade out its multi-cultural beauty. So, there 
is nothing to be angry with, but enjoy your Debian citizenship 

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Roberto C. Sánchez | 1 Dec 21:26

Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich

On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 09:35:16PM +0200, George Danchev wrote:
> 
>  Hehe. To be honest, it is way easier for me to think of Debian as a 
> virtual multi-cultural country which has its own constitution, laws and 
> habits, budget and resources, population (users and developers), gross 
> domestic product (official releases), elections, and leader. Since I doubt 
> anybody knows how to make so many different cultures to co-exist together 
> flawlessly some dissensions enter the scene from time to time just to prove 
> that this is multi-cultural country after all. The paradox is that if you try 
> to import some tons of tolerance to such a country in order to alleviate 
> these dissensions, you risk to fade out its multi-cultural beauty. So, there 
> is nothing to be angry with, but enjoy your Debian citizenship 

I'd like to be appointed as Defense Minister 

Regards,

-Roberto

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Roberto C. Sánchez
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Martin Bähr | 3 Dec 07:41

Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich

On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 03:26:49PM -0500, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 09:35:16PM +0200, George Danchev wrote:
> > The paradox is that if you try to import some tons of tolerance to
> > such a country in order to alleviate these dissensions, you risk to
> > fade out its multi-cultural beauty. 

huh? doesn't more tolerance make more room for multi-cultural beauty?

> I'd like to be appointed as Defense Minister 

who or what exactly do you want to defend?
against whom or what?
and how?

greetings, martin.
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Roberto C. Sánchez | 3 Dec 12:48

Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich

On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 07:41:38AM +0100, Martin Bähr wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 03:26:49PM -0500, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 09:35:16PM +0200, George Danchev wrote:
> > > The paradox is that if you try to import some tons of tolerance to
> > > such a country in order to alleviate these dissensions, you risk to
> > > fade out its multi-cultural beauty. 
> 
> huh? doesn't more tolerance make more room for multi-cultural beauty?
> 
> > I'd like to be appointed as Defense Minister 
> 
> who or what exactly do you want to defend?
> against whom or what?
> and how?

Not sure.  I simply making a tongue-in-cheek reference to George's
comment: "Debian as a virtual multi-cultural country which has its own
constitution ..."

Every country (or nearly every country) has a Defense Minister, and I
figure that the job within Debian would be open.  If you like, I can
layout a complete plan and defense strategy 

Regards,

-Roberto
--

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Roberto C. Sánchez
http://people.connexer.com/~roberto
http://www.connexer.com

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Adrian von Bidder | 23 Dec 21:42

Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich

On Wednesday 03 December 2008 07:41:38 Martin Bähr wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 03:26:49PM -0500, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 09:35:16PM +0200, George Danchev wrote:
> > > The paradox is that if you try to import some tons of tolerance to
> > > such a country in order to alleviate these dissensions, you risk to
> > > fade out its multi-cultural beauty.
>
> huh? doesn't more tolerance make more room for multi-cultural beauty?
>
> > I'd like to be appointed as Defense Minister 

Since the subject references my home country: I think Debian would make an 
even worse job of chosing a new defense minister than our beloved parliament 
just did.

cheers
-- vbi

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Steve Langasek | 29 Nov 00:25

Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 01:00:24PM -0800, Baz wrote:
> It's only going to take one over-zealous U.S. attorney, to get hold of this
> and run with it.

We're talking about a posting for a job in Switzerland.  Don't be absurd.

--

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Steve Langasek                   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer                   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer                                    http://www.debian.org/
slangasek <at> ubuntu.com                                     vorlon <at> debian.org

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Daniel Dickinson | 29 Nov 01:14

Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich

On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 15:25:11 -0800
Steve Langasek <vorlon <at> debian.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 01:00:24PM -0800, Baz wrote:
> > It's only going to take one over-zealous U.S. attorney, to get hold
> > of this and run with it.
> 
> We're talking about a posting for a job in Switzerland.  Don't be
> absurd.
> 

Unfortunately the way U.S. legal policy works, if you have servers that
are responsible for this email, or people administering this applicable
list who live in the U.S. then you are in fact at risk of litigation.
You do remember that people on international flights landing for any
reason on U.S. soil mean that the persons on the flight are subject to
U.S. (such as the case of the Canadian citizen Mahar Arar(sp?) a
Syrian-born Canadian who was accused of being a terrorist by U.S.
authorities and deported to Syria when his plan stopped over in the
U.S. (IIRC it wasn't even a planned layover).

That's the highest profile example in Canada, but I've heard of many
other instances where the U.S. has claimed to the right to enforce it's
laws on anyone they are able to do so (i.e. if you have property or
person in the U.S. they will subject it/you to U.S. law), regardless
of where the 'crime' happened.

Regards,

Daniel

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Daniel Dickinson | 29 Nov 06:02

Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich

On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:14:18 -0500
Daniel Dickinson <cshore <at> fionavar.ca> wrote:

> On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 15:25:11 -0800
> Steve Langasek <vorlon <at> debian.org> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 01:00:24PM -0800, Baz wrote:
> > > It's only going to take one over-zealous U.S. attorney, to get
> > > hold of this and run with it.
> > 
> > We're talking about a posting for a job in Switzerland.  Don't be
> > absurd.
> > 
> 
[snip could sue]

I should add though that even though a lawsuit could be brought it
probably won't be.  This isn't exactly a high profile job, and this
sort of thing is usually complaints-driven.  Unless someone complains
to the appropriate body nothing will happen.

Regards,

Daniel

--

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And that's my crabbing done for the day.  Got it out of the way early, 
now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or 
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Henrique de Moraes Holschuh | 29 Nov 12:53

Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich

On Fri, 28 Nov 2008, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 01:00:24PM -0800, Baz wrote:
> > It's only going to take one over-zealous U.S. attorney, to get hold of this
> > and run with it.
> 
> We're talking about a posting for a job in Switzerland.  Don't be absurd.

That stopped being true the moment some of the more opiniated members
started making statements that were in no way restricted to that particular
job offer posting, and that, if taken by someone to be an endorsment of the
"real position of the Debian project, even if it is not officially written
anywhere", would cause trouble.

So, it might not have been much of a problem before this thread.  But it
could be one, now.

That is also the only reason why people like me that consider even READING
such threads a major annoyance, are starting to send replies to it.

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Steve Langasek | 29 Nov 20:36

Re: Linux System Engineer (100%) in Zurich

On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 09:53:36AM -0200, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Nov 2008, Steve Langasek wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 01:00:24PM -0800, Baz wrote:
> > > It's only going to take one over-zealous U.S. attorney, to get hold of this
> > > and run with it.

> > We're talking about a posting for a job in Switzerland.  Don't be absurd.

> That stopped being true the moment some of the more opiniated members
> started making statements that were in no way restricted to that particular
> job offer posting, and that, if taken by someone to be an endorsment of the
> "real position of the Debian project, even if it is not officially written
> anywhere", would cause trouble.

No, it wouldn't.  Please refrain from armchair-lawyering the legal systems
of countries you don't appear to actually be familiar with.

FFS, Debian deliberately ignores software patents even though we know a
significant number of patent holders could *win* in a US court if they ever
brought suit against us - but now people want to worry about whether or not
Debian is seen as endorsing the *idea* of age discrimination for fear of
lawsuits?

(No, this is not an invitation to revisit Debian's policy on patents.
Anybody who takes it as such will be summarily killfiled and/or flamed.)

--

-- 
Steve Langasek                   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer                   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer                                    http://www.debian.org/
slangasek <at> ubuntu.com                                     vorlon <at> debian.org