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Michael P. Soulier | 29 Jul 2012 16:41
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what graphics card to choose

I'm currently using an older AMD system with Debian Squeeze, using an
Nvidia GeForce FX 5500. This work well on Squeeze with the
nvidia-glx-legacy-173xx package and nvidia-kernel-legacy-173xx-dkms, and
I'm able to play Flightgear.

I'm looking to buy a new system and I'd like to be able to run the
latest Flightgear with all the trimmings turned on, so I need a much
better graphics card, but I'm quite lost in what to buy that will be
compatible and simple to set up and maintain.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Mike
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Camaleón | 29 Jul 2012 17:11
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Re: what graphics card to choose

On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 10:41:00 -0400, Michael P. Soulier wrote:

> I'm currently using an older AMD system with Debian Squeeze, using an
> Nvidia GeForce FX 5500. This work well on Squeeze with the
> nvidia-glx-legacy-173xx package and nvidia-kernel-legacy-173xx-dkms, and
> I'm able to play Flightgear.
> 
> I'm looking to buy a new system and I'd like to be able to run the
> latest Flightgear with all the trimmings turned on, so I need a much
> better graphics card, but I'm quite lost in what to buy that will be
> compatible and simple to set up and maintain.
> 
> Any suggestions?

I would read on their recommended video cards:

http://wiki.flightgear.org/Supported_Video_Cards

Then choose one that you like (because of price/design) and then check 
about its current support status in Linux ecosystem, though I would go 
for nvidia; their closed source driver (sigh...) is rather good.

Greetings,

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hvw59601 | 29 Jul 2012 17:53
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Re: what graphics card to choose

Camaleón wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 10:41:00 -0400, Michael P. Soulier wrote:
> 
>> I'm currently using an older AMD system with Debian Squeeze, using an
>> Nvidia GeForce FX 5500. This work well on Squeeze with the
>> nvidia-glx-legacy-173xx package and nvidia-kernel-legacy-173xx-dkms, and
>> I'm able to play Flightgear.
>>
>> I'm looking to buy a new system and I'd like to be able to run the
>> latest Flightgear with all the trimmings turned on, so I need a much
>> better graphics card, but I'm quite lost in what to buy that will be
>> compatible and simple to set up and maintain.
>>
>> Any suggestions?
> 
> I would read on their recommended video cards:
> 
> http://wiki.flightgear.org/Supported_Video_Cards
> 
> Then choose one that you like (because of price/design) and then check 
> about its current support status in Linux ecosystem, though I would go 
> for nvidia; their closed source driver (sigh...) is rather good.
> 

Indeed it is.

Hugo

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Mark Fletcher | 30 Jul 2012 09:04
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Re: what graphics card to choose

hvw59601 <hvw59601 <at> care2.com> writes:

> 
> Camaleón wrote:
> > On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 10:41:00 -0400, Michael P. Soulier wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Then choose one that you like (because of price/design) and then check 
> > about its current support status in Linux ecosystem, though I would go 
> > for nvidia; their closed source driver (sigh...) is rather good.
> > 
> 
> Indeed it is.
> 
> Hugo
> 

Actually, right now, the nVidia-provided nVidia driver packaged in Debian has a
number of problems with 3D support on several cards. For example I use an nVidia
GeForce 9800 GTX+ which is 2-3 years old -- in other words, neither old nor
bleeding edge -- and 3D support is completely broken right now and has been
since the last working version at 290.10. You can get a Gnome 3 session going
but once you start to exercise the graphics subsystem, eg watching a video,
playing a 3D game, even just exercising the Gnome eye candy heavily, the X
session locks up completely and only a reboot will return your machine to you. I
am currently running Gnome-classic which works fine with the nVidia driver. The
problem seems to be upstream as opposed to in the Debian packaging, but nVidia
themselves are less than anxious to solve the problem it seems. If you are
buying a new system I'd stay away from nVidia cards for now, even though they
are good cards generally, because of the uncerainty about whether a given card
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Gary Dale | 30 Jul 2012 10:25
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Re: what graphics card to choose

On 30/07/12 03:04 AM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
> hvw59601<hvw59601<at>  care2.com>  writes:
>
>> Camaleón wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 10:41:00 -0400, Michael P. Soulier wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Then choose one that you like (because of price/design) and then check
>>> about its current support status in Linux ecosystem, though I would go
>>> for nvidia; their closed source driver (sigh...) is rather good.
>>>
>> Indeed it is.
>>
>> Hugo
>>
> Actually, right now, the nVidia-provided nVidia driver packaged in Debian has a
> number of problems with 3D support on several cards. For example I use an nVidia
> GeForce 9800 GTX+ which is 2-3 years old -- in other words, neither old nor
> bleeding edge -- and 3D support is completely broken right now and has been
> since the last working version at 290.10. You can get a Gnome 3 session going
> but once you start to exercise the graphics subsystem, eg watching a video,
> playing a 3D game, even just exercising the Gnome eye candy heavily, the X
> session locks up completely and only a reboot will return your machine to you. I
> am currently running Gnome-classic which works fine with the nVidia driver. The
> problem seems to be upstream as opposed to in the Debian packaging, but nVidia
> themselves are less than anxious to solve the problem it seems. If you are
> buying a new system I'd stay away from nVidia cards for now, even though they
> are good cards generally, because of the uncerainty about whether a given card
> will work properly even with the proprietary driver. But check out the nVidia
> website -- once they find and solve this problem, I'd personally go back to
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Yaro Kasear | 30 Jul 2012 13:02

Re: what graphics card to choose

On 07/30/2012 03:25 AM, Gary Dale wrote:
> On 30/07/12 03:04 AM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
>> hvw59601<hvw59601<at>  care2.com>  writes:
>>
>>> Camaleón wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 10:41:00 -0400, Michael P. Soulier wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then choose one that you like (because of price/design) and then check
>>>> about its current support status in Linux ecosystem, though I would go
>>>> for nvidia; their closed source driver (sigh...) is rather good.
>>>>
>>> Indeed it is.
>>>
>>> Hugo
>>>
>> Actually, right now, the nVidia-provided nVidia driver packaged in 
>> Debian has a
>> number of problems with 3D support on several cards. For example I 
>> use an nVidia
>> GeForce 9800 GTX+ which is 2-3 years old -- in other words, neither 
>> old nor
>> bleeding edge -- and 3D support is completely broken right now and 
>> has been
>> since the last working version at 290.10. You can get a Gnome 3 
>> session going
>> but once you start to exercise the graphics subsystem, eg watching a 
>> video,
>> playing a 3D game, even just exercising the Gnome eye candy heavily, 
>> the X
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Gary Dale | 30 Jul 2012 16:55
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Re: what graphics card to choose

On 30/07/12 07:02 AM, Yaro Kasear wrote:
> On 07/30/2012 03:25 AM, Gary Dale wrote:
>> On 30/07/12 03:04 AM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
>>> hvw59601<hvw59601<at>  care2.com>  writes:
>>>
>>>> Camaleón wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 10:41:00 -0400, Michael P. Soulier wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then choose one that you like (because of price/design) and then 
>>>>> check
>>>>> about its current support status in Linux ecosystem, though I 
>>>>> would go
>>>>> for nvidia; their closed source driver (sigh...) is rather good.
>>>>>
>>>> Indeed it is.
>>>>
>>>> Hugo
>>>>
>>> Actually, right now, the nVidia-provided nVidia driver packaged in 
>>> Debian has a
>>> number of problems with 3D support on several cards. For example I 
>>> use an nVidia
>>> GeForce 9800 GTX+ which is 2-3 years old -- in other words, neither 
>>> old nor
>>> bleeding edge -- and 3D support is completely broken right now and 
>>> has been
>>> since the last working version at 290.10. You can get a Gnome 3 
>>> session going
>>> but once you start to exercise the graphics subsystem, eg watching a
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Camaleón | 30 Jul 2012 18:44
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Re: what graphics card to choose

On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:55:16 -0400, Gary Dale wrote:

> On 30/07/12 07:02 AM, Yaro Kasear wrote:

(...)

>> KMS is a wonderful feature, but I personally would rather see good
>> OpenGL support than KMS, though. Nouveau's getting there, but it's
>> support for OpenGL (Through Gallium.) isn't really mature enough yet. I
>> also get some odd mouse-stuttering when I use Nouveau.
>>
>> Until this is "fixed," I elect to use nVidia's official drivers, which
>> I personally haven't had any issues with to date.
>>
> And I elect to use ATI cards, because, unlike NVidia, ATI actually helps
> the open source driver development.

"Help" is always welcome but more than help I prefer a driver that works 
and supports all its hardware features in the same way or at least as 
close as it does for Windows, and not just in papers and benchmarks but 
in real life. Otherwise, the "help" is of little "help" and good 
intentions are only wastepaper.

Yes, this post comes with a bit of rant so don't take it very 
seriously :-)

Greetings,

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Martin Steigerwald | 31 Jul 2012 21:47
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Re: what graphics card to choose

Am Montag, 30. Juli 2012 schrieb Camaleón:
> On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:55:16 -0400, Gary Dale wrote:
> > On 30/07/12 07:02 AM, Yaro Kasear wrote:
> (...)
> 
> >> KMS is a wonderful feature, but I personally would rather see good
> >> OpenGL support than KMS, though. Nouveau's getting there, but it's
> >> support for OpenGL (Through Gallium.) isn't really mature enough
> >> yet. I also get some odd mouse-stuttering when I use Nouveau.
> >> 
> >> Until this is "fixed," I elect to use nVidia's official drivers,
> >> which I personally haven't had any issues with to date.
> > 
> > And I elect to use ATI cards, because, unlike NVidia, ATI actually
> > helps the open source driver development.
> 
> "Help" is always welcome but more than help I prefer a driver that
> works and supports all its hardware features in the same way or at
> least as close as it does for Windows, and not just in papers and
> benchmarks but in real life. Otherwise, the "help" is of little "help"
> and good intentions are only wastepaper.
> 
> Yes, this post comes with a bit of rant so don't take it very
> seriously :-)

I don´t care that much as long as what I need works.

Which it does for Intel Sandybridge graphics – that to my surprise is even 
considered suitable for Flightgear.
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Martin Steigerwald | 31 Jul 2012 21:51
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Re: what graphics card to choose

Am Dienstag, 31. Juli 2012 schrieb Martin Steigerwald:
> Am Montag, 30. Juli 2012 schrieb Camaleón:
> > On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:55:16 -0400, Gary Dale wrote:
> > > On 30/07/12 07:02 AM, Yaro Kasear wrote:
> > (...)
> > 
> > >> KMS is a wonderful feature, but I personally would rather see good
> > >> OpenGL support than KMS, though. Nouveau's getting there, but it's
> > >> support for OpenGL (Through Gallium.) isn't really mature enough
> > >> yet. I also get some odd mouse-stuttering when I use Nouveau.
> > >> 
> > >> Until this is "fixed," I elect to use nVidia's official drivers,
> > >> which I personally haven't had any issues with to date.
> > > 
> > > And I elect to use ATI cards, because, unlike NVidia, ATI actually
> > > helps the open source driver development.
> > 
> > "Help" is always welcome but more than help I prefer a driver that
> > works and supports all its hardware features in the same way or at
> > least as close as it does for Windows, and not just in papers and
> > benchmarks but in real life. Otherwise, the "help" is of little
> > "help" and good intentions are only wastepaper.
> > 
> > Yes, this post comes with a bit of rant so don't take it very
> > seriously :-)
> 
> I don´t care that much as long as what I need works.
> 
> Which it does for Intel Sandybridge graphics – that to my surprise is
> even considered suitable for Flightgear.
(Continue reading)

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Martin Steigerwald | 31 Jul 2012 21:52
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Re: what graphics card to choose

Am Dienstag, 31. Juli 2012 schrieb Martin Steigerwald:
> But then one might argue why use integrated graphics at all. Well my
> main  argument is that I am really quite fond with the Intel graphics.

drivers that is.

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Mark Fletcher | 30 Jul 2012 17:10
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Re: what graphics card to choose

Gary Dale <garydale <at> rogers.com> writes:

> 
> On 30/07/12 03:04 AM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
> > hvw59601<hvw59601<at>  care2.com>  writes:
> >
> >> Camaleón wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 10:41:00 -0400, Michael P. Soulier wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Then choose one that you like (because of price/design) and then check
> Yet another reason why open source is important. NVidia might not be 
> interested/able to solve the problem, but I'm sure the open source 
> community could.
> 

Actually, sad to say, Nouveau is even worse -- can't even start a Gnome3 session
using nouveau as the driver. I have seen bug reports echoing the problems I am
seeing, and nothing but push-back from the nouveau guys -- at this rate, I don't
think Nouveau is a realistic candidate to make the nVidia prop driver, even as
poorly supported as it is, redundant. Which I think is a shame, but there it is.

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Chris Bannister | 30 Jul 2012 11:33
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Re: what graphics card to choose

On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 07:04:34AM +0000, Mark Fletcher wrote:
> Actually, right now, the nVidia-provided nVidia driver packaged in Debian has a
> number of problems with 3D support on several cards. For example I use an nVidia
> GeForce 9800 GTX+ which is 2-3 years old -- in other words, neither old nor
> bleeding edge -- and 3D support is completely broken right now and has been
> since the last working version at 290.10. You can get a Gnome 3 session going
> but once you start to exercise the graphics subsystem, eg watching a video,

JFTR, you don't need accelerated graphics to watch a video.

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who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
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Andrei POPESCU | 30 Jul 2012 13:09
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Re: what graphics card to choose

On Lu, 30 iul 12, 21:33:38, Chris Bannister wrote:
> 
> JFTR, you don't need accelerated graphics to watch a video.

But you may need something like VDPAU.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Chris Bannister | 31 Jul 2012 09:48
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Re: what graphics card to choose

On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 02:09:54PM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Lu, 30 iul 12, 21:33:38, Chris Bannister wrote:
> > 
> > JFTR, you don't need accelerated graphics to watch a video.
> 
> But you may need something like VDPAU.

Ohh, OK. Interesting ... 

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who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
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Mark Fletcher | 30 Jul 2012 16:56
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Re: what graphics card to choose

Chris Bannister <cbannister <at> slingshot.co.nz> writes:

> 
> On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 07:04:34AM +0000, Mark Fletcher wrote:
> > Actually, right now, the nVidia-provided nVidia driver packaged in Debian 
has a
> > number of problems with 3D support on several cards. For example I use an 
nVidia
> > GeForce 9800 GTX+ which is 2-3 years old -- in other words, neither old nor
> > bleeding edge -- and 3D support is completely broken right now and has been
> > since the last working version at 290.10. You can get a Gnome 3 session 
going
> > but once you start to exercise the graphics subsystem, eg watching a video,
> 
> JFTR, you don't need accelerated graphics to watch a video.
> 

Nobody implied otherwise. The point is, in Gnome 3, do anything that makes the
video
hardware work remotely hard and, on some cards -- kaboom.
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Ralf Mardorf | 30 Jul 2012 17:52

Re: what graphics card to choose

I experienced Nouveau as a PITA only.
I had no issues with the proprietary 17x, but serious issues with 2xx
for a while on Arch and Ubuntu, but at the moment current 2xx don't
cause issues anymore. I'm not sure if it really was the proprietary
driver, X or another package that did cause the issues.
People who'll use a kernel-rt should keep in mind, that using the
proprietary driver will cause license issues. However, excepted of the
bad resolution at least the vesa driver should be always usable for the
kernel-rt.
I used a NVIDIA AGP with my old board and for my new board I needed to
replace the onboard ATI by a NVIDIA PCIe graphics.

Since real-time audio is most important for me and I only need 3D
acceleration on a level that e.g. google earth can be used, I'll would
test Intel. If audio wouldn't be that important for me, I would stay at
NVIDIA. Resp. I have to stay at NVIDI, because I can't pay for a new
mobo.

YMMV!
Ralf
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hvw59601 | 30 Jul 2012 15:03
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Re: what graphics card to choose

Mark Fletcher wrote:
> hvw59601 <hvw59601 <at> care2.com> writes:
> 
>> Camaleón wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 10:41:00 -0400, Michael P. Soulier wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Then choose one that you like (because of price/design) and then check 
>>> about its current support status in Linux ecosystem, though I would go 
>>> for nvidia; their closed source driver (sigh...) is rather good.
>>>
>> Indeed it is.
>>
>> Hugo
>>
> 
> Actually, right now, the nVidia-provided nVidia driver packaged in Debian has a
> number of problems with 3D support on several cards. 

<snip>

I guess YMMV. I have a GeForce 8400GS with NVidia driver 295.59 running 
wheezy and I have no problems ever with 3D games and/or videos. This is 
on a Asus M4N98TD EVO mobo.

Hugo

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Gary Dale | 29 Jul 2012 17:15
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Re: what graphics card to choose

On 29/07/12 10:41 AM, Michael P. Soulier wrote:
> I'm currently using an older AMD system with Debian Squeeze, using an
> Nvidia GeForce FX 5500. This work well on Squeeze with the
> nvidia-glx-legacy-173xx package and nvidia-kernel-legacy-173xx-dkms, and
> I'm able to play Flightgear.
>
> I'm looking to buy a new system and I'd like to be able to run the
> latest Flightgear with all the trimmings turned on, so I need a much
> better graphics card, but I'm quite lost in what to buy that will be
> compatible and simple to set up and maintain.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
Any card you buy will likely work, either with the open source drivers 
or the proprietary ones. With Wheezy on the verge of becoming the 
current stable release, you shouldn't run into problems with proprietary 
drivers not working with the latest X server.
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Michael P. Soulier | 29 Jul 2012 19:42
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Re: what graphics card to choose

On 29/07/12 11:15 AM, Gary Dale wrote:
> Any card you buy will likely work, either with the open source drivers
> or the proprietary ones. With Wheezy on the verge of becoming the
> current stable release, you shouldn't run into problems with proprietary
> drivers not working with the latest X server.

Bleeding edge nvidia didn't seem to be supported, although I'll bet this
one is.

http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=7_123&item_id=046938

I suppose I could walk in with a live cd and see what output I get from
glxinfo...
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Gary Dale | 29 Jul 2012 20:23
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Re: what graphics card to choose

On 29/07/12 01:42 PM, Michael P. Soulier wrote:
> On 29/07/12 11:15 AM, Gary Dale wrote:
>> Any card you buy will likely work, either with the open source drivers
>> or the proprietary ones. With Wheezy on the verge of becoming the
>> current stable release, you shouldn't run into problems with proprietary
>> drivers not working with the latest X server.
> Bleeding edge nvidia didn't seem to be supported, although I'll bet this
> one is.
>
> http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=7_123&item_id=046938
>
> I suppose I could walk in with a live cd and see what output I get from
> glxinfo...
>
Interesting. You'd think NVidia would keep their proprietary drivers 
current with their hardware. ATI certainly does.

I wouldn't worry about support though. You can always fall back to VESA 
modes until the drivers catch up. Unless NVidia suddenly decides to stop 
providing Linux drivers, that won't be long.
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Michael P. Soulier | 29 Jul 2012 21:21
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Re: what graphics card to choose

On 29/07/12 02:23 PM, Gary Dale wrote:
> Interesting. You'd think NVidia would keep their proprietary drivers
> current with their hardware. ATI certainly does.
> 
> I wouldn't worry about support though. You can always fall back to VESA
> modes until the drivers catch up. Unless NVidia suddenly decides to stop
> providing Linux drivers, that won't be long.

I didn't think that vesa mode was accelerated, and I thought that recent
NVidia had decided to drop support for Linux. Wasn't there a story about
Linus sending them a big "f**k you" response?

Mike
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Gary Dale | 29 Jul 2012 21:43
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Re: what graphics card to choose

On 29/07/12 03:21 PM, Michael P. Soulier wrote:
> On 29/07/12 02:23 PM, Gary Dale wrote:
>> Interesting. You'd think NVidia would keep their proprietary drivers
>> current with their hardware. ATI certainly does.
>>
>> I wouldn't worry about support though. You can always fall back to VESA
>> modes until the drivers catch up. Unless NVidia suddenly decides to stop
>> providing Linux drivers, that won't be long.
> I didn't think that vesa mode was accelerated, and I thought that recent
> NVidia had decided to drop support for Linux. Wasn't there a story about
> Linus sending them a big "f**k you" response?
>
> Mike
They didn't drop support for Linux - just for their open source driver 
initiative.

However, there is no doubt that NVidia are not great supporters of 
Linux. That's why I only use ATI cards. I don't believe in supporting 
companies who don't fit my core beliefs. I try not to buy from 
sweatshops, child labour, repressive regimes, companies with poor 
environmental records and from those who don't support open source.

re. VESA modes. Yes, they are not accelerated. However they are usable 
if you have no other working driver.
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Martin Steigerwald | 31 Jul 2012 21:54
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Re: what graphics card to choose

Am Sonntag, 29. Juli 2012 schrieb Gary Dale:
> On 29/07/12 03:21 PM, Michael P. Soulier wrote:
> > On 29/07/12 02:23 PM, Gary Dale wrote:
> >> Interesting. You'd think NVidia would keep their proprietary drivers
> >> current with their hardware. ATI certainly does.
> >> 
> >> I wouldn't worry about support though. You can always fall back to
> >> VESA modes until the drivers catch up. Unless NVidia suddenly
> >> decides to stop providing Linux drivers, that won't be long.
> > 
> > I didn't think that vesa mode was accelerated, and I thought that
> > recent NVidia had decided to drop support for Linux. Wasn't there a
> > story about Linus sending them a big "f**k you" response?
> > 
> > Mike
> 
> They didn't drop support for Linux - just for their open source driver
> initiative.
> 
> However, there is no doubt that NVidia are not great supporters of
> Linux. That's why I only use ATI cards. I don't believe in supporting
> companies who don't fit my core beliefs. I try not to buy from
> sweatshops, child labour, repressive regimes, companies with poor
> environmental records and from those who don't support open source.
> 
> re. VESA modes. Yes, they are not accelerated. However they are usable
> if you have no other working driver.

But it won´t be enough to make flightgear run well ;)
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Martin Steigerwald | 31 Jul 2012 21:53
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Re: what graphics card to choose

Am Sonntag, 29. Juli 2012 schrieb Michael P. Soulier:
> On 29/07/12 11:15 AM, Gary Dale wrote:
> > Any card you buy will likely work, either with the open source
> > drivers or the proprietary ones. With Wheezy on the verge of
> > becoming the current stable release, you shouldn't run into problems
> > with proprietary drivers not working with the latest X server.
> 
> Bleeding edge nvidia didn't seem to be supported, although I'll bet
> this one is.
> 
> http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=7_123&item_id=046
> 938
> 
> I suppose I could walk in with a live cd and see what output I get from
> glxinfo...

Bleeding edge radeon need AMD/ATI proprietary drivers.

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-- 
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA  B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7
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