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Shlomi Fish | 30 Mar 2012 11:36
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Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

Hi all,

in a previous thread on this list:

http://zgp.org/pipermail/linux-elitists/2011-July/013328.html

I was instructed that in order to get my xconfig-search patch to the
Linux kernel through
( http://www.shlomifish.org/open-source/projects/linux-kernel/xconfig-search/ )
and finding a competent maintainer of Git on the “Better-SCM” site and
comparison ( http://better-scm.shlomifish.org/ ), I should simply try to get my
E-mail addresses unbanned by E-mailing postmaster <at> vger.kernel.org .

Since then what happened was:

1. I registered the throwaway PickledIbex <at> gmail.com account, because I was not
sure that my other, more permanent addresses were also banned from sending to
the postmaster address at  <at> vger.kernel.org, so I needed an unfiltered address.
( Feel free to E-mail or spam me there, but I don't check it often, and I may
close it after its purpose has been served.).

2. On 14 July, 2011, I sent a message from PickledIbex <at> gmail.com to postmaster
-at- kernel.org by accident (note the lack of "vger.") with the request to get
my E-mail addresses unbanned.

3. Shortly afterwards, on the same day, one of the  <at> kernel.org postmasters
kindly bounced it to postmaster <at> vger.org.il which were supposed to take care of
it.

4. On 6 September, 2011, I sent a reply to the bounce to both postmaster,
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Greg Folkert | 30 Mar 2012 15:08
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org

On Fri, 2012-03-30 at 12:36 +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote: 
> Hi all,
> 
> in a previous thread on this list:
> 
> http://zgp.org/pipermail/linux-elitists/2011-July/013328.html

The problem here lies; while you are endeavoring to make headway to do
things for people... you seem to have a way of causing people great
distress or annoyance in reading your posts/responses/requests.

There a number of people, I am aware of, that "twit filter" based on
your e-mail address, the regex '-i shlomi' in the message headers and/or
message body and some also use regexes of some hot buttons you seem to
have. Many of these people will never see your e-mail(s) and never have
to act on them as they go directly to /dev/null.

That said, I believe you've got a Sisyphean task ahead of you, given
your history with, around, and in many venues. You've got a reputation
the precedes you. And from your evidence already quoted and shown, its
apparent.

I think my current "quote for the day" happens to be apropos. Its for
March 30th, 2012 from Brainy Quotes.

I wish you well and good luck on your endeavors.
--

-- 
greg <at> gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
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Greg KH | 30 Mar 2012 16:04
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:36:45PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> Since then what happened was:
> 
> 1. I registered the throwaway PickledIbex <at> gmail.com account, because I was not
> sure that my other, more permanent addresses were also banned from sending to
> the postmaster address at  <at> vger.kernel.org, so I needed an unfiltered address.
> ( Feel free to E-mail or spam me there, but I don't check it often, and I may
> close it after its purpose has been served.).

<snip>

Any reason right there you didn't use that account to email your patch
to lkml?  No need to subscribe, and you can put your "real" email
address in the patch as the author (as the kernel documentation shows
you how to), and then all would be good, right?

greg k-h
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Shlomi Fish | 30 Mar 2012 16:57
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

ׁHi Greg,

thanks for your E-mail.

On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 07:04:57 -0700
Greg KH <greg <at> kroah.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:36:45PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> > Since then what happened was:
> > 
> > 1. I registered the throwaway PickledIbex <at> gmail.com account, because I was not
> > sure that my other, more permanent addresses were also banned from sending to
> > the postmaster address at  <at> vger.kernel.org, so I needed an unfiltered address.
> > ( Feel free to E-mail or spam me there, but I don't check it often, and I may
> > close it after its purpose has been served.).
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Any reason right there you didn't use that account to email your patch
> to lkml?  No need to subscribe, and you can put your "real" email
> address in the patch as the author (as the kernel documentation shows
> you how to), and then all would be good, right?

The short answer is that I did it because registering this address is intended
to get my other, more permanent addresses unbanned or at least put on probation,
and that I don't wish to evade the ban or have the vger.kernel.org postmasters
play whac-a-mole with throwaway webmail addresses that will be repeatedly banned
(due to obvious moral/ethical reasons). 

The longer story is that after my address was banned I started
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Marc MERLIN | 2 Apr 2012 21:06

Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 05:57:38PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> banned as well. I'd prefer a more permanent solution that won't involve
> acting immorally/unethically/anti-netiquetically or require any more unnecessary
> effort on the parties involved.

I'm going to go on a limb, and assume that your parents aren't called
Fish, and that they didn't call you Shlomi.

If somehow, they did, you'll be much better off stating in your
signature that it is your legal name.

If they did not, then you can stop ignoring hints that using a your real
name, not talking about yourself as the 3rd person, you're not Julius
Cesar or a king last I checked, will earn you more attention and
respect.

Oh, also, tone down on the "oh look at what happened to me, this is so
unfair, can I get you to be outraged for me?"

To me, and apparently others, you sound like a clown, and therefore get
the matching amount of respect and attention.

Marc
--

-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems ....
                                      .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/
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Rick Moen | 3 Apr 2012 02:08
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

Quoting Marc MERLIN (marc <at> merlins.org):

> I'm going to go on a limb, and assume that your parents aren't called
> Fish, and that they didn't call you Shlomi.

The given name 'Shlomi' is a relatively rare Biblical name from the book
of Numbers aka Badamidbar, and is (obviously) derived from the word for
'peace'.  You may have never run across it before in the USA or France,
but it's perfectly real nonetheless.  It's also sometimes used as a
diminutive for Shlomo (Solomon).

'Fish' is a somewhat common surname among Ashkenazic Jews, and is also a
relatively rare English surname.  (Not that you care, but, heaviest UK
concentration is in West Yorkshire and Cumbria counties, in the north of
England.)  One notes that Shlomi is from Israel.

I suspect that everyone's name is somewhere between peculiar and
hilarious in a number of common languages, and so am very slow to accuse
people with outlandish names of using fake ones -- and sympathetic
towards those so accused.  (My Uncle Reidar ducked the issue, going by
'Ray' when in the United States, just as my Aunt Bjorg went by 'Evie'.)

L'hitraot, 
Rick M.
(not entirely clueless re: the Hebrew language, having spent time as a
kibbutz volunteer)

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Muli Ben-Yehuda | 3 Apr 2012 05:48
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

> From: Rick Moen <rick <at> linuxmafia.com>
> To: linux-elitists <at> zgp.org
> Date: 04/03/2012 03:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails
> Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and
> getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)
> Sent by: linux-elitists-bounces <at> zgp.org
>
> Quoting Marc MERLIN (marc <at> merlins.org):
>
> > I'm going to go on a limb, and assume that your parents aren't called
> > Fish, and that they didn't call you Shlomi.
>
> The given name 'Shlomi' is a relatively rare Biblical name from the book
> of Numbers aka Badamidbar, and is (obviously) derived from the word for
> 'peace'.  You may have never run across it before in the USA or France,
> but it's perfectly real nonetheless.  It's also sometimes used as a
> diminutive for Shlomo (Solomon).
>
> 'Fish' is a somewhat common surname among Ashkenazic Jews, and is also a
> relatively rare English surname.  (Not that you care, but, heaviest UK
> concentration is in West Yorkshire and Cumbria counties, in the north of
> England.)  One notes that Shlomi is from Israel.

Rick, if I may congratulate you for a truly elitist reply.

Marc, I have known Shlomi for over ten years in the real world through the
local Israeli Linux community. That is, unfortunate as it may be, his
perfectly normal real name.
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Marc MERLIN | 3 Apr 2012 05:57

Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 06:48:28AM +0300, Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote:
> Rick, if I may congratulate you for a truly elitist reply.
> 
> Marc, I have known Shlomi for over ten years in the real world through the
> local Israeli Linux community. That is, unfortunate as it may be, his
> perfectly normal real name.

Ok, in that case I do owe Shlomi an apology for my default assumption
that the name was fake.

My recommendation for that possibility stands then. Sorry to be blunt,
but the name does sound fake and childish to people not knowledgeable
with Jewish culture and knowledge other many factoids that Rick beats
many of us on.

I really would help to put a small signature "this is my real name,
please see http://.. ".

Usually I give people the benefit of the doubt, but the name looked too
take to me, so sorry for that part.

Marc
--

-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems ....
                                      .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/
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Rick Moen | 3 Apr 2012 07:49
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

Quoting Marc MERLIN (marc <at> merlins.org):

> My recommendation for that possibility stands then. Sorry to be blunt,
> but the name does sound fake and childish to people not knowledgeable
> with Jewish culture and knowledge other many factoids that Rick beats
> many of us on.

Eh, I just happen to know a lot of little things in a lot of areas of
life, most of them utterly useless.  However, if you ever need to know
where to get incredibly good Hungarian blintzes just off Rehov Dizengoff
in Tel Aviv, call me.  ;->

> I really would help to put a small signature "this is my real name,
> please see http://.. ".

Marc, I don't know about you, but I can imagine the experience of having
a name that some refuse to believe is real might get your stubborn up,
and become something of a badge of pride.  Nicknames and middle names
can be a useful sideways step (though middle names exist only in some
cultures and not others[1]).  

Alternatively, one might aspire to a level of fame and influence at
which an odd name doesn't matter.  When my mother worked at 
Rockefeller Foundation headquarters, the office was sometimes visited by
several members of the very important, philanthropically inclined family
of Governor Jim Hogg of Texas, including his very famous and very rich
adult daughter, Ima Hogg.  Nobody laughed.  Not ever.

[1] Fascinating Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_name
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Shlomi Fish | 3 Apr 2012 10:59
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

On Mon, 2 Apr 2012 22:49:26 -0700
Rick Moen <rick <at> linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Quoting Marc MERLIN (marc <at> merlins.org):
> 
> > My recommendation for that possibility stands then. Sorry to be blunt,
> > but the name does sound fake and childish to people not knowledgeable
> > with Jewish culture and knowledge other many factoids that Rick beats
> > many of us on.
> 
> Eh, I just happen to know a lot of little things in a lot of areas of
> life, most of them utterly useless.  However, if you ever need to know
> where to get incredibly good Hungarian blintzes just off Rehov Dizengoff
> in Tel Aviv, call me.  ;->
> 
> > I really would help to put a small signature "this is my real name,
> > please see http://.. ".
> 
> Marc, I don't know about you, but I can imagine the experience of having
> a name that some refuse to believe is real might get your stubborn up,
> and become something of a badge of pride.  Nicknames and middle names
> can be a useful sideways step (though middle names exist only in some
> cultures and not others[1]).  
> 
> Alternatively, one might aspire to a level of fame and influence at
> which an odd name doesn't matter.  When my mother worked at 
> Rockefeller Foundation headquarters, the office was sometimes visited by
> several members of the very important, philanthropically inclined family
> of Governor Jim Hogg of Texas, including his very famous and very rich
> adult daughter, Ima Hogg.  Nobody laughed.  Not ever.
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Marc MERLIN | 3 Apr 2012 17:57

Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

On Mon, Apr 02, 2012 at 10:49:26PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Marc MERLIN (marc <at> merlins.org):
> 
> > My recommendation for that possibility stands then. Sorry to be blunt,
> > but the name does sound fake and childish to people not knowledgeable
> > with Jewish culture and knowledge other many factoids that Rick beats
> > many of us on.
> 
> Eh, I just happen to know a lot of little things in a lot of areas of
> life, most of them utterly useless.  However, if you ever need to know
> where to get incredibly good Hungarian blintzes just off Rehov Dizengoff
> in Tel Aviv, call me.  ;->

That's what I meant :)
(but more seriously I've always known you as a repository of random, and
most often useful knowledge).

> Marc, I don't know about you, but I can imagine the experience of having
> a name that some refuse to believe is real might get your stubborn up,
> and become something of a badge of pride.  Nicknames and middle names
> can be a useful sideways step (though middle names exist only in some
> cultures and not others[1]).  

Obviously I don't believe one has to change their name just so that it's
more culturally convenient to others, although my wife, her sister and
parents all just did that.
If my name were confusing to others, I'd be frustrated about it and
eventually state something in my signature about it to stop having to
repeat the same thing to everyone.
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Nick Moffitt | 3 Apr 2012 18:42
X-Face
Face

Little Miss Moffitt

Rick Moen:
> Quoting Marc MERLIN (marc <at> merlins.org):
> > I really would help to put a small signature "this is my real name,
> > please see http://.. ".
> 
> Marc, I don't know about you, but I can imagine the experience of
> having a name that some refuse to believe is real might get your
> stubborn up, and become something of a badge of pride.  

Perhaps people with oft-questioned names could wear some kind of badges
on their lapels containing a long-form birth certificate in a QR code!
I'm sure that Google would support this, given their fast-track process
for cancelling accounts with names that don't pass the commonality test
in Fargo or wherever.

Those of you who know me personally will know this already, but someone
I am very close to has just such an unlikely name.  Perhaps you could
also object to my last name because of the nursery rhyme.  Just do a
Web search for "Rick Moen" and "second grade" to find him shutting down
scores of talentless hecklers who'd encountered his name for the first
time.  

A few lurkers on this list noted in IRC the other day that they honestly
didn't suspect that Marc's last name really was "Merlin" until he
started mocking Shlomi.

--

-- 
"It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to
find out how nature *is*.  Physics concerns what we can
*say* about nature."
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Rick Moen | 3 Apr 2012 19:30
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Re: Little Miss Moffitt

Quoting Nick Moffitt (nick <at> teh.entar.net):

> Just do a Web search for "Rick Moen" and "second grade" to find him
> shutting down scores of talentless hecklers who'd encountered his name
> for the first time.  

Sorry, but who what?

Performing suggested search finds my assisting someone named Ashleigh
with a XFree86 problem and carelessly alluding to something 'he' wrote,
Ashleigh replying that she's a she, and my cheerily apologising for my
error.  (I try to be far more consistent about saying 'he or she', these
days.)

Second hit was my deciding to not waste time on a FidoNet flamer who
started out a reply post with 'Ricky, what you have engaged in is a
childish game' and went rapidly downhill from there.  For purposes of
that interaction, my name could have been John Smith and I'd have
dismissed the gentleman for the same reason, which was that he had
nothing to say.

Your point will doubtless be fascinating once you arrive at it.

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Teh Entar-Nick | 4 Apr 2012 14:31
X-Face
Face

Re: Little Miss Moffitt

Rick Moen:
> Quoting Nick Moffitt (nick <at> teh.entar.net):
> > Just do a Web search for "Rick Moen" and "second grade" to find him
> > shutting down scores of talentless hecklers who'd encountered his
> > name for the first time.  
> 
> Sorry, but who what?
> 
> Performing suggested search finds...

Ah, sorry.  I guess I should have actually done a web search of that
instead of my private mail archives.  My bad, but in my defense I was
rushed away from my mail before I could go back to edit.  

> Your point will doubtless be fascinating once you arrive at it.

For a while you responded to mockery of your surname by intimating that
the heckler must still be around 7 years old.  At this point I've lost
the motivation to locate public evidence of this, and leave it as an
entertaining exercise for the reader.

--

-- 
Schrödinger's cat was an observer.
WAKE UP, SHEEPLE!  Stop the silence!
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Rick Moen | 4 Apr 2012 18:51
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Re: Little Miss Moffitt

Quoting Nick Moffitt (nick <at> teh.entar.net):

> For a while you responded to mockery of your surname by intimating that
> the heckler must still be around 7 years old.

And remain inclined to do so.  Fortunately, I have not lately
encountered that particular variety of arrested development, so can
avoid even that minor waste of time.

--

-- 
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Rick Moen                       confused with Vanhalentine's Day (every day)."
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Here At InfoChambers | 6 Apr 2012 07:39

Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

On 04/02/2012 22:49, Rick Moen wrote:

>
> [1] Fascinating Wikipedia article:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_name
> ObSoftware:  Even more fascinating Web rant about programmer
> cluelessness concerning names:
> http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/
>

    I'm doing a bit of email catchup . . .

    Over time I've had no problem causing headaches for HR and company 
email systems by having a last name of MacIan . . . Emm Aye Cee Capital 
Eye Aye Enn.  No, that's not MACE-ee-an, it's mack-EE-an.  No, I'm not 
the senior US senator from Arizona.  Yes, while I tinker about with 
computers, no, my last name is not mack-Lan either.  That letter in the 
middle is Not a lower case ell, where if you are seeing and then 
transcribing an ell, then you clearly have one of those inferior fonts 
that does not include serifs.

    And then of course, when discussing names, one Must got to 
http://notwithoutmyhandbag.com/blog/category/badbabynames/ . . . .

"I didn’t have this much trouble naming my first three kids either~~they 
are: Michelle Kaye, Kathleen Cierra, and Abbey Julieanna. What do you 
think of Kaylyn Arriana? Also, do you like the spelling Kaylan or Kaylyn 
better?

Observe the evolution from sanity to madness. First the middle names are
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Bob Bernstein | 3 Apr 2012 08:27
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

On Mon, Apr 02, 2012 at 08:57:36PM -0700, Marc MERLIN wrote:

> Ok, in that case I do owe Shlomi an apology for my default 
> assumption that the name was fake.

And all along I thought you were a smart guy. Now it comes out 
you're just another dumbass who thinks he knows everything. ("I've 
never seen that before; it must be fake!") Ha! And no you don't get 
any brownie points for being so "up front" about it.

--

-- 
Bob Bernstein

"No matter how big the problem is, you can always run away from it."

                                                Dom Irrera
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Marc MERLIN | 3 Apr 2012 17:49

Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 02:27:16AM -0400, Bob Bernstein wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 02, 2012 at 08:57:36PM -0700, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> 
> > Ok, in that case I do owe Shlomi an apology for my default 
> > assumption that the name was fake.
> 
> And all along I thought you were a smart guy. Now it comes out 

Depends who you ask.

> you're just another dumbass who thinks he knows everything. ("I've 

I'm afraid you're as mistaken as I was on that one (well, on the 'thinks
he knows everything' part). I suppose that makes you no better than me.

> never seen that before; it must be fake!") Ha! And no you don't get 
> any brownie points for being so "up front" about it.

I'm not playing for points. I said out loud what some others didn't, and
others just solved by kill filling Shlomi without saying anything.

But eh, I managed to embarras myself, so feel free to poke a stick at
me, that's the price of my having made a incorrect default assumption.

Some other day, I can also tell you about that guy who I had to Email
and was called Fernanda, who I assumed was female after even going
through the trouble of checking with a Spanish friend that Fernanda was
indeed a female name.

Marc
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Shlomi Fish | 3 Apr 2012 10:52
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

Hi all,

On Tue, 3 Apr 2012 06:48:28 +0300
Muli Ben-Yehuda <MULI <at> il.ibm.com> wrote:

> > > I'm going to go on a limb, and assume that your parents aren't called
> > > Fish, and that they didn't call you Shlomi.
> >
> > The given name 'Shlomi' is a relatively rare Biblical name from the book
> > of Numbers aka Badamidbar, and is (obviously) derived from the word for
> > 'peace'.  You may have never run across it before in the USA or France,
> > but it's perfectly real nonetheless.  It's also sometimes used as a
> > diminutive for Shlomo (Solomon).
> >
> > 'Fish' is a somewhat common surname among Ashkenazic Jews, and is also a
> > relatively rare English surname.  (Not that you care, but, heaviest UK
> > concentration is in West Yorkshire and Cumbria counties, in the north of
> > England.)  One notes that Shlomi is from Israel.
> 
> Rick, if I may congratulate you for a truly elitist reply.
> 
> Marc, I have known Shlomi for over ten years in the real world through the
> local Israeli Linux community. That is, unfortunate as it may be, his
> perfectly normal real name.
> 

First of all, thanks to Rick and Muli for informing the list before I had a
chance to. Shlomi Fish is indeed my real name, which might sound more normal to
Israeli and Hebrew-speaking ears than to foreigners.
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Shlomi Fish | 2 Apr 2012 12:17
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

ׁHi Greg,

thanks for your E-mail.

On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 07:04:57 -0700
Greg KH <greg <at> kroah.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:36:45PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> > Since then what happened was:
> > 
> > 1. I registered the throwaway PickledIbex <at> gmail.com account, because I was not
> > sure that my other, more permanent addresses were also banned from sending to
> > the postmaster address at  <at> vger.kernel.org, so I needed an unfiltered address.
> > ( Feel free to E-mail or spam me there, but I don't check it often, and I may
> > close it after its purpose has been served.).
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Any reason right there you didn't use that account to email your patch
> to lkml?  No need to subscribe, and you can put your "real" email
> address in the patch as the author (as the kernel documentation shows
> you how to), and then all would be good, right?

The short answer is that I did it because registering this address is intended
to get my other, more permanent addresses unbanned or at least put on probation,
and that I don't wish to evade the ban or have the vger.kernel.org postmasters
play whac-a-mole with throwaway webmail addresses that will be repeatedly banned
(due to obvious moral/ethical reasons). 

The longer story is that after my address was banned I started
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Marc MERLIN | 30 Mar 2012 16:33

Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:36:45PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> in a previous thread on this list:

Dear I still don't know who your name is, and I don't take people who Email
with silly aliases seriously.

Honestly, how life is unfair and your Emails seem to cause some people to
ignore you, soon for me to do the same, isn't all that earth shattering.

The world isn't out there to get you, I'm afraid it's actually you who is
creating this.

For starters, if you are indeed older than 15, try using a real name, or
something that looks like one, that will probably improve your odds.

Marc
--

-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems ....
                                      .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/  
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Greg KH | 30 Mar 2012 17:16
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 07:33:52AM -0700, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:36:45PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > in a previous thread on this list:
> 
> Dear I still don't know who your name is, and I don't take people who Email
> with silly aliases seriously.

Dammit Marc, you just blew it!  That was going to be the next hurdle we
threw up in getting those patches accepted into the kernel tree as the
kernel developers are not allowed to accept contributions from people
not using their legal name.

Oh, and for those that don't realize it, almost 2 thousand developers
figured out how to contribute to the kernel last year, it's not a hard
thing to do.  So anyone who does complain about it, obviously is doing
something wrong on their end...

greg k-h
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Chris Ball | 30 Mar 2012 17:33
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

Hi,

On Fri, Mar 30 2012, Greg KH wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 07:33:52AM -0700, Marc MERLIN wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:36:45PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:
>> > Hi all,
>> > 
>> > in a previous thread on this list:
>> 
>> Dear I still don't know who your name is, and I don't take people who Email
>> with silly aliases seriously.
>
> Dammit Marc, you just blew it!  That was going to be the next hurdle we
> threw up in getting those patches accepted into the kernel tree as the
> kernel developers are not allowed to accept contributions from people
> not using their legal name.

As much as I agree that Shlomi's trouble getting patches accepted
appears to be because he's impossible to work with, making fun of him
for having a "silly alias" as a name seems to be crossing the line into
disturbing behavior -- I don't see any reason to believe it's a fake
name.  It seems that you're both performing "your name looks weird so
I will bully you about it" stereotyping.

- Chris (who also has a silly name).
--

-- 
Chris Ball   <cjb <at> laptop.org>   <http://printf.net/>
One Laptop Per Child
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Greg KH | 30 Mar 2012 18:43
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 11:33:21AM -0400, Chris Ball wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Fri, Mar 30 2012, Greg KH wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 07:33:52AM -0700, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> >> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:36:45PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> >> > Hi all,
> >> > 
> >> > in a previous thread on this list:
> >> 
> >> Dear I still don't know who your name is, and I don't take people who Email
> >> with silly aliases seriously.
> >
> > Dammit Marc, you just blew it!  That was going to be the next hurdle we
> > threw up in getting those patches accepted into the kernel tree as the
> > kernel developers are not allowed to accept contributions from people
> > not using their legal name.
> 
> As much as I agree that Shlomi's trouble getting patches accepted
> appears to be because he's impossible to work with, making fun of him
> for having a "silly alias" as a name seems to be crossing the line into
> disturbing behavior -- I don't see any reason to believe it's a fake
> name.  It seems that you're both performing "your name looks weird so
> I will bully you about it" stereotyping.
> 
> - Chris (who also has a silly name).

Are you kidding me?  Do you know how much flack I get for my name?  It's
been one problem after another for all of these years, no one knows how
to pronounce it, and no one knows how to look it up when they file it
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Karsten M. Self | 30 Mar 2012 18:21
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

on Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 08:16:52AM -0700, Greg KH (greg <at> kroah.com) wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 07:33:52AM -0700, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:36:45PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > > 
> > > in a previous thread on this list:
> > 
> > Dear I still don't know who your name is, and I don't take people who Email
> > with silly aliases seriously.
> 
> Dammit Marc, you just blew it!  That was going to be the next hurdle we
> threw up in getting those patches accepted into the kernel tree as the
> kernel developers are not allowed to accept contributions from people
> not using their legal name.

I take it this is a side-effect of the upcoming merger of The Linux
Foundation and Google+.

;-)

Peace.

--

-- 
Karsten M. Self <karsten <at> linuxmafia.com>        http://linuxmafia.com/~karsten
 What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?

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Greg KH | 30 Mar 2012 18:37
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 09:21:26AM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> on Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 08:16:52AM -0700, Greg KH (greg <at> kroah.com) wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 07:33:52AM -0700, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > > On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:36:45PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> > > > Hi all,
> > > > 
> > > > in a previous thread on this list:
> > > 
> > > Dear I still don't know who your name is, and I don't take people who Email
> > > with silly aliases seriously.
> > 
> > Dammit Marc, you just blew it!  That was going to be the next hurdle we
> > threw up in getting those patches accepted into the kernel tree as the
> > kernel developers are not allowed to accept contributions from people
> > not using their legal name.
> 
> I take it this is a side-effect of the upcoming merger of The Linux
> Foundation and Google+.
> 
> ;-)

I know you are just joking here, but no, we have had this policy in
place for many many years now, it is not something new at all.  See the
file, Documentation/SubmittingPatches in the Linux kernel source tree
for details (the Signed-off-by: portion is the section that is
relevant.)

And as the lawyers constantly remind me, copyright is not a laughing
matter :(
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Karsten M. Self | 30 Mar 2012 20:26
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

on Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 09:37:26AM -0700, Greg KH (greg <at> kroah.com) wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 09:21:26AM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> > on Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 08:16:52AM -0700, Greg KH (greg <at> kroah.com) wrote:
> > > On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 07:33:52AM -0700, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:36:45PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > 
> > > > > in a previous thread on this list:
> > > > 
> > > > Dear I still don't know who your name is, and I don't take people who Email
> > > > with silly aliases seriously.
> > > 
> > > Dammit Marc, you just blew it!  That was going to be the next hurdle we
> > > threw up in getting those patches accepted into the kernel tree as the
> > > kernel developers are not allowed to accept contributions from people
> > > not using their legal name.
> > 
> > I take it this is a side-effect of the upcoming merger of The Linux
> > Foundation and Google+.
> > 
> > ;-)
> 
> I know you are just joking here, but no, we have had this policy in
> place for many many years now, it is not something new at all.  See the
> file, Documentation/SubmittingPatches in the Linux kernel source tree
> for details (the Signed-off-by: portion is the section that is
> relevant.)
> 
> And as the lawyers constantly remind me, copyright is not a laughing
> matter :(
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Greg KH | 30 Mar 2012 21:07
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 11:26:21AM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> Is it required that the person coding be the person signing off?

Did you read the Developer's Certificate of Origin (DCO) described in
the file, Documentation/SubmittingPatches in the kernel source tree?
That explains this question quite throughly I thought.  If not, please
point out where it should be clarified.

thanks,

greg k-h
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Karsten M. Self | 31 Mar 2012 00:29
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

on Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:07:23PM -0700, Greg KH (greg <at> kroah.com) wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 11:26:21AM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> > Is it required that the person coding be the person signing off?
> 
> Did you read the Developer's Certificate of Origin (DCO) described in
> the file, Documentation/SubmittingPatches in the kernel source tree?
> That explains this question quite throughly I thought.  If not, please
> point out where it should be clarified.

Thanks for pointing that out.  And mind I'm giving hypotheticals, not
sure what's happening in practice.

It appears that section 13 of SubmittingPatches would correspond to the
Yale Wall model, though that's not clearly stated.  I don't know if it
should be, but text such as: 

    In (special|exceptional) cases, by request, submissions _MAY_ be 
    considered which are not tagged Signed-of-by, but are instead
    Acked-by a listed maintainer.

E.g.:  if you've got a bloody good reason, we'll consider your request,
but no promises, and don't the lawyerly types don't like us doing this.

In practice, Are patches ever accepted which are *only* Acked-By and not
Signed-off-by?  Would/have you done such a thing (acked someone's
unsigned-by-request) patch?

Thanks & peace.

--

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Greg KH | 31 Mar 2012 01:36
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 03:29:07PM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> on Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:07:23PM -0700, Greg KH (greg <at> kroah.com) wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 11:26:21AM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> > > Is it required that the person coding be the person signing off?
> > 
> > Did you read the Developer's Certificate of Origin (DCO) described in
> > the file, Documentation/SubmittingPatches in the kernel source tree?
> > That explains this question quite throughly I thought.  If not, please
> > point out where it should be clarified.
> 
> Thanks for pointing that out.  And mind I'm giving hypotheticals, not
> sure what's happening in practice.
> 
> 
> It appears that section 13 of SubmittingPatches would correspond to the
> Yale Wall model, though that's not clearly stated.  I don't know if it
> should be, but text such as: 
> 
>     In (special|exceptional) cases, by request, submissions _MAY_ be 
>     considered which are not tagged Signed-of-by, but are instead
>     Acked-by a listed maintainer.
> 
> E.g.:  if you've got a bloody good reason, we'll consider your request,
> but no promises, and don't the lawyerly types don't like us doing this.
> 
> 
> In practice, Are patches ever accepted which are *only* Acked-By and not
> Signed-off-by?  Would/have you done such a thing (acked someone's
> unsigned-by-request) patch?
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Rick Moen | 31 Mar 2012 01:31
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Re: Update on Getting Shlomi Fish's Emails Unbanned from vger.kernel.org (for submitting a kernel patch and getting help with git on the Better-SCM site)

Quoting Karsten M. Self (karsten <at> linuxmafia.com):

> Indeed.  And I'd read of that, wasn't thinking of it when I wrote my
> quip though.
> 
> Is it required that the person coding be the person signing off?
[...]
> Is there any analog in the Linux kernel development process?  Debian has
> a few discussions of freedoms, among them the desert island and
> dissident tests.  These are for judging licenses, not code acceptence
> practices, but there's a relationship between the two.  While a
> kernel-hacking Crusoe might care for noteriety, the dissident might not:

Greg provided the appropriate reference, but I thought I'd add an
(interested outsider's) observation or two of my own.

The organisers of the kernel project aren't legally obliged to prove
past question that every patchset has copyright clearance, but are
aiming for being covered for 'due diligence' standards:  They require
the submitting party to certify knowledge of a permission grant by the
copyright owner, and sufficient rights to make that grant meaningful.
Thus, a _truly_ anonymous author's work cannot be accepted, as the
submitter (at least) needs to be in a position to certify knowledge of
provenance -- at minimum, that 'some other person' certified creation
or right to submit the work under 'an appropriate open source license'.

Thus, the kernel maintainers make sure they can reasonably claim 
good-faith reliance on the submitter's sign-off certifying permission
grant and sufficient rights.  That doesn't absolutely prevent copyright
infringement (hardly anything could), but should powerfully protect the
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