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Thomas M Steenholdt | 3 Feb 16:45

Default MTA for Fedora 7

I noticed that Exim is being installed as the default MTA, at least on 
the Desktop installation of Fedora 7 test1. Is this change intentional? 
I can't seem to find it mentioned anywhere?!?

Thanks in advance

/Thomas

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Bill Nottingham | 3 Feb 18:04
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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

Thomas M Steenholdt (tmus <at> tmus.dk) said: 
> I noticed that Exim is being installed as the default MTA, at least on 
> the Desktop installation of Fedora 7 test1. Is this change intentional? 

Not exactly. It's how the dependencies got fulfilled.

Bill

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David Woodhouse | 3 Feb 20:00
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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 12:04 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> Thomas M Steenholdt (tmus <at> tmus.dk) said: 
> > I noticed that Exim is being installed as the default MTA, at least on 
> > the Desktop installation of Fedora 7 test1. Is this change intentional? 
> 
> Not exactly. It's how the dependencies got fulfilled. 

It's probably a good thing though -- it _is_ a better choice because
it's much easier to deal with and much more versatile than the other
options; _especially_ than sendmail :)

It's ironic though that the installer manages dependencies like that but
not some, erm..., more basic ones...

[root <at> net2-100 ~]# passwd dwmw2
passwd: error while loading shared libraries: libuser.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file
or directory

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Jesse Keating | 3 Feb 20:37
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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

On Saturday 03 February 2007 14:00, David Woodhouse wrote:
> It's ironic though that the installer manages dependencies like that but
> not some, erm..., more basic ones...
>
> [root <at> net2-100 ~]# passwd dwmw2
> passwd: error while loading shared libraries: libuser.so.1: cannot open
> shared object file: No such file or directory

Sounds like one of the packages has a bad/missing Requires then, or the soname 
was bumped but passwd wasn't rebuilt, or something like that.

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David Woodhouse | 3 Feb 22:26
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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 14:37 -0500, Jesse Keating wrote:
> Sounds like one of the packages has a bad/missing Requires then, or
> the soname was bumped but passwd wasn't rebuilt, or something like
> that. 

No, almost all 64-bit libraries seem to be missing, although the
dependencies are correct -- rpm gets it right (see below) but the
installer didn't. Bug 226956.

[root <at> net2-100 ~]# rpm -e passwd.ppc64
[root <at> net2-100 ~]# rpm -Uhv /fish/redhat/rawhide-ppc/Fedora/RPMS/passwd-0.74-2.ppc64.rpm 
error: Failed dependencies:
        libaudit.so.0()(64bit) is needed by passwd-0.74-2.ppc64
        libglib-2.0.so.0()(64bit) is needed by passwd-0.74-2.ppc64
        libgmodule-2.0.so.0()(64bit) is needed by passwd-0.74-2.ppc64
        libgobject-2.0.so.0()(64bit) is needed by passwd-0.74-2.ppc64
        libpam.so.0()(64bit) is needed by passwd-0.74-2.ppc64
        libpam.so.0(LIBPAM_1.0)(64bit) is needed by passwd-0.74-2.ppc64
        libpam_misc.so.0()(64bit) is needed by passwd-0.74-2.ppc64
        libpam_misc.so.0(LIBPAM_MISC_1.0)(64bit) is needed by passwd-0.74-2.ppc64
        libpopt.so.0()(64bit) is needed by passwd-0.74-2.ppc64
        libselinux.so.1()(64bit) is needed by passwd-0.74-2.ppc64
        libuser.so.1()(64bit) is needed by passwd-0.74-2.ppc64

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Stephen John Smoogen | 3 Feb 21:53

Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

On 2/3/07, David Woodhouse <dwmw2 <at> infradead.org> wrote:
> On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 12:04 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> > Thomas M Steenholdt (tmus <at> tmus.dk) said:
> > > I noticed that Exim is being installed as the default MTA, at least on
> > > the Desktop installation of Fedora 7 test1. Is this change intentional?
> >
> > Not exactly. It's how the dependencies got fulfilled.
>
> It's probably a good thing though -- it _is_ a better choice because
> it's much easier to deal with and much more versatile than the other
> options; _especially_ than sendmail :)
>

No its better because you like it more. I think you have been pushing
for this since at least 1999 (2000 for sure).

Me I would like postfix :)

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David Woodhouse | 3 Feb 22:37
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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 13:53 -0700, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> No its better because you like it more. I think you have been pushing
> for this since at least 1999 (2000 for sure).
> 
> Me I would like postfix :) 

Were you one of the postfix people who disappeared into the background
around the time of FC4 when I was looking for someone to show me if/how
postfix could achieve the stuff I currently do with Exim?

You weren't the one who eventually _admitted_ to giving up, and said "I
think I'll switch to Exim"; that was someone else, right? The others
just went quiet.

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Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski | 3 Feb 23:54

Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

On Saturday, 03 February 2007 at 21:53, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> On 2/3/07, David Woodhouse <dwmw2 <at> infradead.org> wrote:
> >On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 12:04 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> >> Thomas M Steenholdt (tmus <at> tmus.dk) said:
> >> > I noticed that Exim is being installed as the default MTA, at least on
> >> > the Desktop installation of Fedora 7 test1. Is this change intentional?
> >>
> >> Not exactly. It's how the dependencies got fulfilled.
> >
> >It's probably a good thing though -- it _is_ a better choice because
> >it's much easier to deal with and much more versatile than the other
> >options; _especially_ than sendmail :)
> >
> 
> No its better because you like it more. I think you have been pushing
> for this since at least 1999 (2000 for sure).
> 
> Me I would like postfix :)

+1

:)

Regards,
R.

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Ralf Ertzinger | 4 Feb 00:39

Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

Hi.

On Sat, 3 Feb 2007 13:53:44 -0700, Stephen John Smoogen wrote

> Me I would like postfix :)

Simply get upstream to rename it to pfx.

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Eric Wood | 4 Feb 01:20

Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
> Simply get upstream to rename it to pfx.
>
>   

The bigger issues is to why so many package have "sendmail", "postfix", 
or "exim" hardcoded in their binaries.  A simple 'strings' command can 
tell us what package have these potential system calls embedded in their 
binaries:

Of course I have a sendmail centric installation, and someone out there 
probably has a distro wide CVS search for dependencies.  Besides, this 
simple search may be yeild a few false positives.  Regardless, upstream 
packages should get more generic on their MTA of choice.  But this 
proves to me the importance of sendmail of the other MTAs.

strings for 'sendmail':

anacron-2.3-44.fc6
at-3.1.8-84.fc6
authconfig-gtk-5.3.12-1.fc6
bash-3.1-16.1
crash-4.0-3.3
fetchmail-6.3.6-2.fc6
gnome-system-monitor-2.16.0-1.fc6
isdn4k-utils-3.2-50
logwatch-7.3-7.fc6
mailx-8.1.1-44.2.2
mdadm-2.5.4-2.fc6
mgetty-1.1.33-9.fc6
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Chris Adams | 4 Feb 05:54
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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

Once upon a time, Eric Wood <eric <at> interplas.com> said:
> The bigger issues is to why so many package have "sendmail", "postfix", 
> or "exim" hardcoded in their binaries.  A simple 'strings' command can 
> tell us what package have these potential system calls embedded in their 
> binaries:

I expect that most everything you found matching sendmail is calling
/usr/sbin/sendmail (or archaic /usr/lib/sendmail).  This is the Unix
"standard" for a local message submission program, good or bad.  That's
why on Fedora /usr/sbin/sendmail is handled with alternatives; pretty
much every replacement mailer supplies a basic /usr/sbin/sendmail that
can accept messages the same way.

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Bill Nottingham | 4 Feb 05:52
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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

Eric Wood (eric <at> interplas.com) said: 
> Of course I have a sendmail centric installation, and someone out there 
> probably has a distro wide CVS search for dependencies.  Besides, this 
> simple search may be yeild a few false positives.  Regardless, upstream 
> packages should get more generic on their MTA of choice.  But this 
> proves to me the importance of sendmail of the other MTAs.

/usr/sbin/sendmail is a *standard* unix interface. It's in the LSB,
and it's actually something that can be compiled in. (See
/usr/include/paths.h)

> strings for 'postfix'
...
> gcalctool-5.8.25-1.fc6

Somehow, I doubt this has anything to do with mail. :)

Bill

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Matej Cepl | 7 Feb 12:16
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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

Bill Nottingham scripst:
> /usr/sbin/sendmail is a *standard* unix interface.

a) ed is a *standard* unix text editor ;-) (sorry, cannot resist)
b) and all reasonable MTAs support /usr/sbin/sendmail -- what does it have
to do with choice of particular package for Fedora?

Matej

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Bill Nottingham | 7 Feb 20:15
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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

Matej Cepl (mcepl <at> redhat.com) said: 
> b) and all reasonable MTAs support /usr/sbin/sendmail -- what does it have
> to do with choice of particular package for Fedora?

Nothing, just commenting that a package that matches /usr/sbin/sendmail
in 'strings' output probably is not sendmail specific (which is what was
being implied in the original mail.)

Bill

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Nicolas Mailhot | 11 Feb 00:37

Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

Stephen John Smoogen a écrit :
> On 2/3/07, David Woodhouse <dwmw2 <at> infradead.org> wrote:
>> Not exactly. It's how the dependencies got fulfilled.
>>
>> It's probably a good thing though -- it _is_ a better choice because
>> it's much easier to deal with and much more versatile than the other
>> options; _especially_ than sendmail :)
>>
>
> No its better because you like it more. I think you have been pushing
> for this since at least 1999 (2000 for sure).
>
> Me I would like postfix :)

It *is* way better than sendmail but it *do* like postfix better too.
Someone has shamelessly used the fact exim was the MTA with the shortest 
name to sneak this big change in.

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nodata | 11 Feb 23:56

Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

Am Sonntag, den 11.02.2007, 07:37 +0800 schrieb Nicolas Mailhot:
> Stephen John Smoogen a écrit :
> > On 2/3/07, David Woodhouse <dwmw2 <at> infradead.org> wrote:
> >> Not exactly. It's how the dependencies got fulfilled.
> >>
> >> It's probably a good thing though -- it _is_ a better choice because
> >> it's much easier to deal with and much more versatile than the other
> >> options; _especially_ than sendmail :)
> >>
> >
> > No its better because you like it more. I think you have been pushing
> > for this since at least 1999 (2000 for sure).
> >
> > Me I would like postfix :)

Me too. Very clean.

Sendmail X has a very similar design to Postfix. Not looked at it for a
while though.

> 
> It *is* way better than sendmail but it *do* like postfix better too.
> Someone has shamelessly used the fact exim was the MTA with the shortest 
> name to sneak this big change in.

Yes.

Imagine if RHEL was to switch the default MTA to Exim "because it has
the shortest name". Customers would laugh.
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Thomas M Steenholdt | 3 Feb 22:59

Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

Bill Nottingham wrote:
> Thomas M Steenholdt (tmus <at> tmus.dk) said: 
>> I noticed that Exim is being installed as the default MTA, at least on 
>> the Desktop installation of Fedora 7 test1. Is this change intentional? 
> 
> Not exactly. It's how the dependencies got fulfilled.
> 
> Bill
> 

I just checked the contents of the DVD image, and the only MTA I can 
find there is Exim. I guess that's the real reason.

So I guess the real question is:

"If we change the Default MTA in Fedora - Which should it be?"

I'm sure a lot of people will say Exim is great (i can't say, since i've 
never worked with it). Others will yell for Postfix, towards which i'm 
probably slightly biased, since that's what I currently use in most 
places. I'm sure yet others will have other MTA's listed as their 
favorite one.

/Thomas

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Joachim Frieben | 4 Feb 10:33

Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

> I just checked the contents of the DVD image, and the only MTA I can 
> find there is Exim. I guess that's the real reason.
> 
> /Thomas

No, this is not the real reason. "exim" is even preferred when both "Core" and "Extras" repositories are
enabled while a program requiring "/usr/sin/sendmail" is scheduled for install. For instance, this can
happen after a minimum install. In ordinary cases [e.g. desktop install], "sendmail" gets picked up
during system install since it is listed in "comps.xml".
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Thomas M Steenholdt | 4 Feb 11:37

Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

Joachim Frieben wrote:
>> I just checked the contents of the DVD image, and the only MTA I can 
>> find there is Exim. I guess that's the real reason.
>>
>> /Thomas
> 
> No, this is not the real reason. "exim" is even preferred when both "Core" and "Extras" repositories are
enabled while a program requiring "/usr/sin/sendmail" is scheduled for install. For instance, this can
happen after a minimum install. In ordinary cases [e.g. desktop install], "sendmail" gets picked up
during system install since it is listed in "comps.xml".
Still - Only Exim is available on the DVD.
If something else is our *default* MTA, it would probably be a good idea 
to include that one on the DVD instead, wouldn't you agree. We can argue 
about what yum picks up as preferred for whatever reason, but when only 
one included package (Exim) provides /usr/sbin/sendmail, that whole 
discussion is pointless. If sendmail og postfix was on the DVD as well, 
that would be another case, but they're not.

/Thomas

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David Woodhouse | 4 Feb 12:14
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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

On Sun, 2007-02-04 at 11:37 +0100, Thomas M Steenholdt wrote:
> Still - Only Exim is available on the DVD.

That's _because_ it was automatically chosen to satisfy
the /usr/sbin/sendmail dependency. Pungi did that, at about the same
time it decided _not_ to include the 64-bit libuser package to satisfy
the libuser.so.1()(64bit) dependency in /usr/bin/passwd :)

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Thomas M Steenholdt | 4 Feb 13:43

Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Sun, 2007-02-04 at 11:37 +0100, Thomas M Steenholdt wrote:
>> Still - Only Exim is available on the DVD.
> 
> That's _because_ it was automatically chosen to satisfy
> the /usr/sbin/sendmail dependency. Pungi did that, at about the same
> time it decided _not_ to include the 64-bit libuser package to satisfy
> the libuser.so.1()(64bit) dependency in /usr/bin/passwd :)
> 

Heh :o).

Okay then!

/Thomas

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David Woodhouse | 4 Feb 12:08
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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 22:59 +0100, Thomas M Steenholdt wrote:
> "If we change the Default MTA in Fedora - Which should it be?"
> 
> I'm sure a lot of people will say Exim is great (i can't say, since i've 
> never worked with it). Others will yell for Postfix, towards which i'm 
> probably slightly biased, since that's what I currently use in most 
> places. I'm sure yet others will have other MTA's listed as their 
> favorite one.

Exim certainly does the job for me. None of the others do, as far as I
can tell. I'd be happy to be corrected on that count though, so I'll
elucidate...

I'd like to be able to do greylisting -- but not indiscriminately; I
want to greylist only mail which actually looks suspicious in some way,
rather than delaying perfectly genuine mail. Mail gets greylisted only
if it has some SpamAssassin points, or it's HTML, or it comes from a
machine with no reverse DNS or which is listed in a RBL, etc. That's a
few lines of Exim ACL code, demonstrated (the quick hack version) at
http://david.woodhou.se/eximconf/include/acl-greylist or perhaps more
sanely with jgarzik's better SQLite-based version which is available in
the same directory although I haven't yet switched over to it.

Is it possible to do that kind of thing in other MTAs? Without writing
or installing external software (or, perhaps, calling out to Exim? :)

I also need to be able to run virtual domains on the cluster of mail
machines I operate, but I don't really want to set up yet another
distributed database; I _already_ have DNS running, after all. I keep
aliases for virtual domains in TXT records, and I use Dynamic DNS so
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Horst H. von Brand | 5 Feb 02:21

Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

David Woodhouse <dwmw2 <at> infradead.org> wrote:
> On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 22:59 +0100, Thomas M Steenholdt wrote:
> > "If we change the Default MTA in Fedora - Which should it be?"
> > 
> > I'm sure a lot of people will say Exim is great (i can't say, since i've 
> > never worked with it). Others will yell for Postfix, towards which i'm 
> > probably slightly biased, since that's what I currently use in most 
> > places. I'm sure yet others will have other MTA's listed as their 
> > favorite one.
> 
> Exim certainly does the job for me. None of the others do, as far as I
> can tell. I'd be happy to be corrected on that count though, so I'll
> elucidate...
> 
> I'd like to be able to do greylisting -- but not indiscriminately; I
> want to greylist only mail which actually looks suspicious in some way,
> rather than delaying perfectly genuine mail. Mail gets greylisted only
> if it has some SpamAssassin points, or it's HTML, or it comes from a
> machine with no reverse DNS or which is listed in a RBL, etc.

The /point/ in greylisting is not to expend any effort on mail that comes
from suspect origins. Stopping mail from an RBLed origin or no reverse DNS
(or non-matching reverse DNS) are other, independent anti-spam
measures. Sure, they can be integrated into greylisting (milter-greylist
for sendmail integrates RBLs), but they are still independent. So is
spamassassin's score, etc.

>                                                               That's a
> few lines of Exim ACL code, demonstrated (the quick hack version) at
> http://david.woodhou.se/eximconf/include/acl-greylist or perhaps more
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Ola Thoresen | 5 Feb 10:32
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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

Horst H. von Brand wrote:
> David Woodhouse <dwmw2 <at> infradead.org> wrote:

>>
>> I'd like to be able to do greylisting -- but not indiscriminately; I
>> want to greylist only mail which actually looks suspicious in some way,
>> rather than delaying perfectly genuine mail. Mail gets greylisted only
>> if it has some SpamAssassin points, or it's HTML, or it comes from a
>> machine with no reverse DNS or which is listed in a RBL, etc.
> 
> The /point/ in greylisting is not to expend any effort on mail that comes
> from suspect origins. Stopping mail from an RBLed origin or no reverse DNS
> (or non-matching reverse DNS) are other, independent anti-spam
> measures. Sure, they can be integrated into greylisting (milter-greylist
> for sendmail integrates RBLs), but they are still independent. So is
> spamassassin's score, etc.
> 

I somehow agree with David here, and have tried to configure 
Spamassassin and sendmail-milter accordingly, with no success.

I'd like SA to block everything with a score higher than N
(550 Blocked By Spamassassin) - This is easy.

I do not want mail that SA has classified as almost certainly not spam 
to be greylisted.
But then I'd like to greylist everything that is not blocked, but that 
is still suspicius (I.E. a score lower than N, but higher than M).

But I geuss this is best solved by talking to the developers of one of
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David Woodhouse | 5 Feb 15:15
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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

On Mon, 2007-02-05 at 10:32 +0100, Ola Thoresen wrote:
> I do not want mail that SA has classified as almost certainly not spam 
> to be greylisted.
> But then I'd like to greylist everything that is not blocked, but that 
> is still suspicius (I.E. a score lower than N, but higher than M).
> 
> But I geuss this is best solved by talking to the developers of one of 
> the greylist-milters, to make them add a feature to whitelist email 
> based on a custom header. (For instance "X-Spam-Level: ***") 

The simple greylisting implementation I referred to earlier already does
that, in just a few lines of Exim ACL code which can be tweaked to
implement whatever policy you actually want.

Rather than a header in the mail itself, it's triggered by an ACL
variable which can be set during ACL processing for various reasons,
including a certain threshold of SA points, as well as the 'offences' of
being HTML, having no Message-Id: header, having MIME errors, etc.

I've been wondering if it's worth including something like that in the
Fedora package, as an example rather than being enabled by default.

Although it's useful to give examples of how to do such things, it's
also important not to make the _default_ configuration too baroque.
Debian gets this very wrong, which is why I've been slightly reluctant
to include more than the basics in the Fedora package. But these days I
suspect that greylisting _is_ counted amongst the basic requirements of
a public-facing mail server so I think I'll have to include it.

Would you (or anyone else, for that matter) be interested in being a
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Florian La Roche | 6 Feb 15:54
Favicon

Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

> Although it's useful to give examples of how to do such things, it's
> also important not to make the _default_ configuration too baroque.
> Debian gets this very wrong, which is why I've been slightly reluctant
> to include more than the basics in the Fedora package. But these days I
> suspect that greylisting _is_ counted amongst the basic requirements of
> a public-facing mail server so I think I'll have to include it.

Including this, but having it commented out sounds very good.

> Would you (or anyone else, for that matter) be interested in being a
> guinea pig to help me assess how easy it is for newbies to Exim to use
> such a thing if I add it?

I am ;-) I still run sendmail, but exim has been on my wishlist for
a very long time now.

regards,

Florian La Roche

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David Woodhouse | 7 Feb 14:11
Favicon

Greylisting support for Exim in -devel.

On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 15:54 +0100, Florian La Roche wrote:
> > Although it's useful to give examples of how to do such things, it's
> > also important not to make the _default_ configuration too baroque.
> > Debian gets this very wrong, which is why I've been slightly reluctant
> > to include more than the basics in the Fedora package. But these days I
> > suspect that greylisting _is_ counted amongst the basic requirements of
> > a public-facing mail server so I think I'll have to include it.
> 
> Including this, but having it commented out sounds very good.
> 
> > Would you (or anyone else, for that matter) be interested in being a
> > guinea pig to help me assess how easy it is for newbies to Exim to use
> > such a thing if I add it?
> 
> I am ;-) I still run sendmail, but exim has been on my wishlist for
> a very long time now.

Ok, I've thrown together a fairly simple example of how to implement
greylisting in Exim. It's in exim-4.66-2.fc7, building in -devel now.

There's an 'exim-greylist' subpackage which contains a snippet of ACL
subroutine to do greylisting, along with a %post script to create the
sqlite tables, a cron job to expire old entries, etc. To use it, just
install the exim-greylist package, then edit /etc/exim/exim.conf and
uncomment the bits which refer to it.

By default, it only greylists mail which lacks a Message-Id: header.
There are examples in the config file which you can just uncomment and
tweak to trigger greylisting for other offences, including SA points,
RBLs, or you can just make it unconditional. As discussed, it remembers
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David Woodhouse | 5 Feb 12:25
Favicon

Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

On Sun, 2007-02-04 at 22:21 -0300, Horst H. von Brand wrote:
> > Exim certainly does the job for me. None of the others do, as far as I
> > can tell. I'd be happy to be corrected on that count though, so I'll
> > elucidate...

I note you make no pretence at claiming Postfix can do these things;
only arguments that I shouldn't _want_ to. This despite the fact that
they're only _examples_ of the kind of thing people do with mail
servers, and the fact that these are the reasons people come to me and
_ask_ for an account on my systems.

But despite the fact that it's a complete digression and you seem to
have already conceded the point I was making, it's a subject which
interests me so I'll play along...

> > I'd like to be able to do greylisting -- but not indiscriminately; I
> > want to greylist only mail which actually looks suspicious in some way,
> > rather than delaying perfectly genuine mail. Mail gets greylisted only
> > if it has some SpamAssassin points, or it's HTML, or it comes from a
> > machine with no reverse DNS or which is listed in a RBL, etc.
> 
> The /point/ in greylisting is not to expend any effort on mail that comes
> from suspect origins.

Resources are cheap, right up to the point the mail is accepted and
delivered to my mailbox. At _that_ point I start to resent it.

The point in greylisting is very simple: it's to check that the mail is
coming from a 'proper' mail server which actually does retry mail when
you give a temporary rejection. Some people naïvely delay all incoming
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Nils Philippsen | 5 Feb 15:54
Favicon

greylisting and dynamic host IPs, was: Default MTA for Fedora 7

On Mon, 2007-02-05 at 11:25 +0000, David Woodhouse wrote:

> The point in greylisting is very simple: it's to check that the mail is
> coming from a 'proper' mail server which actually does retry mail when
> you give a temporary rejection. Some people naïvely delay all incoming
> mail (and some outgoing mail too, if they reject at RCPT TO and the
> recipient uses callouts) by greylisting indiscriminately. I prefer mail
> to be fast in the common case, so I like to delay _only_ mail which
> actually looks suspicious in some way, and I prefer _never_ to greylist
> mail from a host (IP address) which was already observed to retry in the
> past.

Note that you should probably only pass at greylisting if an IP is not
from one of the "known" ranges of dynamic IPs.

Nils
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David Woodhouse | 5 Feb 17:10
Favicon

Re: greylisting and dynamic host IPs, was: Default MTA for Fedora 7

On Mon, 2007-02-05 at 15:54 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote:
> Note that you should probably only pass at greylisting if an IP is not
> from one of the "known" ranges of dynamic IPs.

Well, as with everything else it's a trade-off. If you receive mail from
the same IP address again, you don't know whether it's actually the same
host or not. Do you delay it just in case, or do you accept it? That's a
local policy decision.

These days, people tend to hold on to "dynamic" IP addresses for quite a
long time, so I think it's probably worth avoiding greylisting for known
resenders even in dynamic ranges. I make no special case for dynamic IP
addresses.

Actually, one thing which came up on conversation elsewhere quite
recently was the idea that we should use a {HELO, IP} tuple to keep
track of 'known resenders' instead of _just_ the IP address. That tends
to mean that a new host taking over a dynamic IP address will tend not
to get the benefit of the historical "known resender" status of that IP.
It actually came up in the context of NAT -- it means that you can
record _one_ host behind NAT as a 'known resender' but not necessarily
grant the same status to the host of compromised Windows machines which
may reside behind the same NAT box.

You could also expire known resender status for dynamic ranges (or
indeed _all_ ranges), if they don't send you mail for a period of time.

There's a whole bunch of things you might want to do, and they're all
fairly simple variations on the basic implementation. That's one of the
reasons why an open-coded implementation in a capable MTA is preferable,
(Continue reading)

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Benny Amorsen | 6 Feb 10:07

Re: greylisting and dynamic host IPs, was: Default MTA for Fedora 7

>>>>> "NP" == Nils Philippsen <nphilipp <at> redhat.com> writes:

NP> Note that you should probably only pass at greylisting if an IP is
NP> not from one of the "known" ranges of dynamic IPs.

The IP I send this from is static. It is also supposedly a "known"
dynamic IP. I would agree with you if the dynamic IP lists were
actually dynamic IP lists.

/Benny

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Nils Philippsen | 6 Feb 16:13
Favicon

Re: greylisting and dynamic host IPs, was: Default MTA for Fedora 7

On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 10:07 +0100, Benny Amorsen wrote:
> >>>>> "NP" == Nils Philippsen <nphilipp <at> redhat.com> writes:
> 
> NP> Note that you should probably only pass at greylisting if an IP is
> NP> not from one of the "known" ranges of dynamic IPs.
> 
> The IP I send this from is static. It is also supposedly a "known"
> dynamic IP. I would agree with you if the dynamic IP lists were
> actually dynamic IP lists.

Weeeell, the dynamic IP I have at home is dynamic, in fact they cut the
connection every 24 hours to ensure I get a new IP. No problem because I
push all my mails to a machine with a static IP so I don't have to send
directly ;-). Anyway, the scheme dwmw2 mentioned (white list IP plus
HELO host) should alleviate most false whitelisting due to dynamic IPs.

Nils
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 Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."  --  B. Franklin, 1759
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Jesse Keating | 6 Feb 16:34
Favicon

Re: greylisting and dynamic host IPs, was: Default MTA for Fedora 7

On Tuesday 06 February 2007 04:07, Benny Amorsen wrote:
> The IP I send this from is static. It is also supposedly a "known"
> dynamic IP. I would agree with you if the dynamic IP lists were
> actually dynamic IP lists.

Is it really static, or is it statically assigned through DHCP, making it a 
crossbreed static/dynamic?  If it is within the rest of the dynamic range 
your ISP uses, then its really hard to tell.

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Benny Amorsen | 6 Feb 22:13

Re: greylisting and dynamic host IPs, was: Default MTA for Fedora 7

>>>>> "JK" == Jesse Keating <jkeating <at> redhat.com> writes:

JK> On Tuesday 06 February 2007 04:07, Benny Amorsen wrote:
>> The IP I send this from is static. It is also supposedly a "known"
>> dynamic IP. I would agree with you if the dynamic IP lists were
>> actually dynamic IP lists.

JK> Is it really static, or is it statically assigned through DHCP,
JK> making it a crossbreed static/dynamic? If it is within the rest of
JK> the dynamic range your ISP uses, then its really hard to tell.

It is really really static. No DHCP anywhere. I just don't get to set
reverse DNS for it.

And yes, it's hard to tell for the lists. The point is that they don't
even try. They just split the Internet into corporations and the rest,
only allowing corporations to run servers. I could play along and move
my server to the company connection of course, but is that really
where we want the Internet to go?

/Benny

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nodata | 5 Feb 18:39

Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

Am Montag, den 05.02.2007, 11:25 +0000 schrieb David Woodhouse:
> On Sun, 2007-02-04 at 22:21 -0300, Horst H. von Brand wrote:
> > > Exim certainly does the job for me. None of the others do, as far as I
> > > can tell. I'd be happy to be corrected on that count though, so I'll
> > > elucidate...
> 
> I note you make no pretence at claiming Postfix can do these things;
> only arguments that I shouldn't _want_ to. This despite the fact that
> they're only _examples_ of the kind of thing people do with mail
> servers, and the fact that these are the reasons people come to me and
> _ask_ for an account on my systems.
> 
> But despite the fact that it's a complete digression and you seem to
> have already conceded the point I was making, it's a subject which
> interests me so I'll play along...
> 
> > > I'd like to be able to do greylisting -- but not indiscriminately; I
> > > want to greylist only mail which actually looks suspicious in some way,
> > > rather than delaying perfectly genuine mail. Mail gets greylisted only
> > > if it has some SpamAssassin points, or it's HTML, or it comes from a
> > > machine with no reverse DNS or which is listed in a RBL, etc.
> > 
> > The /point/ in greylisting is not to expend any effort on mail that comes
> > from suspect origins.
> 
> Resources are cheap, right up to the point the mail is accepted and
> delivered to my mailbox. At _that_ point I start to resent it.
> 
> The point in greylisting is very simple: it's to check that the mail is
> coming from a 'proper' mail server which actually does retry mail when
(Continue reading)

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Ralf Ertzinger | 5 Feb 18:52

Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

Hi.

On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 18:39:10 +0100, nodata wrote:

> Are we really changing the default MTA just because of a cock-up in
> resolving dependencies?

No.
We change it because sendmail sucks and needs to die.

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Jesse Keating | 5 Feb 19:58
Favicon

Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7

On Monday 05 February 2007 12:52, Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
> > Are we really changing the default MTA just because of a cock-up in
> > resolving dependencies?
>
> No.
> We change it because sendmail sucks and needs to die.

No, we haven't _changed_ anything.  We let yum decide what dep to satisfy 
smtpdaemon dependencies of mdadm and fetchmail, which happened to be in the 
Desktop spin that we did for Test 1.  We have not made any statement or 
decision about what might be the "default" MTA should a user actually ask for 
an MTA.  In fact, in the Desktop installer, there is NO CHOICE for an MTA on 
purpose.

Discussions like what are happening here is exactly why I don't want to choose 
a default one.  I'd much rather the Mail Server grouped marked every MTA 
as 'optional' and the end user has to make a choice.  If no choice is made, 
than the dependency resolver will make a choice, and right now, exim wins 
because it wins in a sort of all that provide smtpdaemon (shortest name).  If 
somebody packages up the 'aa' package that provides smtpdaemon and plays with 
alternatives right, 'aa' would win, again because of the sort.

I'm tired of this argument, let no mailer be default, other than what wins 
progamatically by dep resolution.

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Nigel Metheringham
 | 
5 Feb 20:42






Gravatar





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7



On 5 Feb 2007, at 18:58, Jesse Keating wrote:

> If somebody packages up the 'aa' package that provides smtpdaemon and
> plays with alternatives right, 'aa' would win, again because of the
> sort.

I came -><- this close to adding a wishlist item to the Exim bugzilla to
change its name to 'a' (or do numerics sort earlier?)

Fun fun fun...

      Nigel.
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Horst H. von Brand
 | 
6 Feb 00:58





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Nigel Metheringham <nigel.metheringham <at> dev.intechnology.co.uk> wrote:
> On 5 Feb 2007, at 18:58, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > If somebody packages up the 'aa' package that provides smtpdaemon and
> > plays with alternatives right, 'aa' would win, again because of the
> > sort.

> I came -><- this close to adding a wishlist item to the Exim bugzilla to
> change its name to 'a' (or do numerics sort earlier?)
> 
> Fun fun fun...

Yep. My suggestion would be "sendmail" --> " " ;-)
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Thomas M Steenholdt
 | 
5 Feb 21:39





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Monday 05 February 2007 12:52, Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
>>> Are we really changing the default MTA just because of a cock-up in
>>> resolving dependencies?
>> No.
>> We change it because sendmail sucks and needs to die.
> 
> No, we haven't _changed_ anything.  We let yum decide what dep to satisfy 
> smtpdaemon dependencies of mdadm and fetchmail, which happened to be in the 
> Desktop spin that we did for Test 1.  We have not made any statement or 
> decision about what might be the "default" MTA should a user actually ask for 
> an MTA.  In fact, in the Desktop installer, there is NO CHOICE for an MTA on 
> purpose.
> 
> Discussions like what are happening here is exactly why I don't want to choose 
> a default one.  I'd much rather the Mail Server grouped marked every MTA 
> as 'optional' and the end user has to make a choice.  If no choice is made, 
> than the dependency resolver will make a choice, and right now, exim wins 
> because it wins in a sort of all that provide smtpdaemon (shortest name).  If 
> somebody packages up the 'aa' package that provides smtpdaemon and plays with 
> alternatives right, 'aa' would win, again because of the sort.
> 
> I'm tired of this argument, let no mailer be default, other than what wins 
> progamatically by dep resolution.
> 
> 

I'm not going to debate which mailer is best, but I have to say this... 
Knowing that exim will win a dependency race for for /usr/sbin/sendmail, 
including the package on the media and installing it by default (even if 

(Continue reading)






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Jesse Keating
 | 
6 Feb 01:27






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Monday 05 February 2007 15:39, Thomas M Steenholdt wrote:
> I'm not going to debate which mailer is best, but I have to say this...
> Knowing that exim will win a dependency race for for /usr/sbin/sendmail,
> including the package on the media and installing it by default (even if
> it's to satisfy a dep.), comes very very close to being a conscious
> decision.

If you don't have network enabled at install time (and the remote repo 
enabled), then only the packages on media will be looked at for solving 
smtpdaemon.  If its sendmail, and sendmail alone, it will win.  If it's 
postfix, it will win.  Its all in what you put on the media.

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Thomas M Steenholdt
 | 
6 Feb 21:48





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Monday 05 February 2007 15:39, Thomas M Steenholdt wrote:
>> I'm not going to debate which mailer is best, but I have to say this...
>> Knowing that exim will win a dependency race for for /usr/sbin/sendmail,
>> including the package on the media and installing it by default (even if
>> it's to satisfy a dep.), comes very very close to being a conscious
>> decision.
> 
> If you don't have network enabled at install time (and the remote repo 
> enabled), then only the packages on media will be looked at for solving 
> smtpdaemon.  If its sendmail, and sendmail alone, it will win.  If it's 
> postfix, it will win.  Its all in what you put on the media.
> 
> 
Precisely. So let's make sure that whatever is put on the media, is 
something that we can somehow justify as our default packages for 
whatever. I don't care about which mailer is chosen as default, but I'm 
not too fond of the: "package XXX is the default choice for function 
YYY, because it won the *sort* contest". If we are going to include an 
MTA on the media at all - and install should of course be possible 
without network connectivity - we should be in charge of which mailer 
goes there. It should not be left to chance.

/Thomas

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Jesse Keating
 | 
6 Feb 23:20






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tuesday 06 February 2007 15:48, Thomas M Steenholdt wrote:
> Precisely. So let's make sure that whatever is put on the media, is
> something that we can somehow justify as our default packages for
> whatever. I don't care about which mailer is chosen as default, but I'm
> not too fond of the: "package XXX is the default choice for function
> YYY, because it won the *sort* contest". If we are going to include an
> MTA on the media at all - and install should of course be possible
> without network connectivity - we should be in charge of which mailer
> goes there. It should not be left to chance.

I really really don't want to make that decision, because no matter _what_ 
decision I make, people with pitchforks are going to come after me.  So I'm 
perfectly happy to make _no_ decision and let the tool sort it out.

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Thomas M Steenholdt
 | 
7 Feb 00:19





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Tuesday 06 February 2007 15:48, Thomas M Steenholdt wrote:
>> Precisely. So let's make sure that whatever is put on the media, is
>> something that we can somehow justify as our default packages for
>> whatever. I don't care about which mailer is chosen as default, but I'm
>> not too fond of the: "package XXX is the default choice for function
>> YYY, because it won the *sort* contest". If we are going to include an
>> MTA on the media at all - and install should of course be possible
>> without network connectivity - we should be in charge of which mailer
>> goes there. It should not be left to chance.
> 
> I really really don't want to make that decision, because no matter _what_ 
> decision I make, people with pitchforks are going to come after me.  So I'm 
> perfectly happy to make _no_ decision and let the tool sort it out.
> 
> 

I think that's too easy and I'm slightly concerned with how many changes 
of *default* MTA's we'll see over time this way. Lets pick one so that 
even though we may not be perfectly happy with the choice, we'll know 
what we can expect to see there. I'm a postfix guy, but a lot of the 
exim dudes here have made me curious, so i'll be experimenting with exim 
soon. I've run sendmail some years back, but not lately. Either way, I 
vote that we choose this component, rather than leaving it to the sort 
routine.

The obvious and easy choice is: sendmail (this is what we've had for as 
long as I can remember)

As I see it, the battle of the "newcomers" is between Exim and Postfix.

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Patrice Dumas
 | 
7 Feb 00:33






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


> sense to me. Is there a candidate for this perhaps?!?

esmtp and ssmtp.

(and msmtp but the review if dead if I recall well).

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Jonathan Underwood
 | 
7 Feb 13:20





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On 06/02/07, Patrice Dumas <pertusus <at> free.fr> wrote:
> > sense to me. Is there a candidate for this perhaps?!?
>
> esmtp and ssmtp.
>
> (and msmtp but the review if dead if I recall well).

Also nbsmtp.

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Horst H. von Brand
 | 
7 Feb 00:51





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Jesse Keating <jkeating <at> redhat.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday 06 February 2007 15:48, Thomas M Steenholdt wrote:
> > Precisely. So let's make sure that whatever is put on the media, is
> > something that we can somehow justify as our default packages for
> > whatever. I don't care about which mailer is chosen as default, but I'm
> > not too fond of the: "package XXX is the default choice for function
> > YYY, because it won the *sort* contest". If we are going to include an
> > MTA on the media at all - and install should of course be possible
> > without network connectivity - we should be in charge of which mailer
> > goes there. It should not be left to chance.

> I really really don't want to make that decision, because no matter _what_ 
> decision I make, people with pitchforks are going to come after me.  So I'm 
> perfectly happy to make _no_ decision and let the tool sort it out.

That by itself /is/ a decision...

Yes, I know about the pitchforks and all, and can't say I envy your
position. But MTA is just one of the areas where there are several
alternatives (vi vs emacs vs Xemacs, bash vs ash vs dash vs zsh vs ...) 
plus the many "Do we include ...?" Better set up an uniform way to decide
such questions, just leaving them to "random" doesn't cut it.
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Panu Matilainen
 | 
7 Feb 08:10





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, 6 Feb 2007, Horst H. von Brand wrote:

> Jesse Keating <jkeating <at> redhat.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday 06 February 2007 15:48, Thomas M Steenholdt wrote:
>>> Precisely. So let's make sure that whatever is put on the media, is
>>> something that we can somehow justify as our default packages for
>>> whatever. I don't care about which mailer is chosen as default, but I'm
>>> not too fond of the: "package XXX is the default choice for function
>>> YYY, because it won the *sort* contest". If we are going to include an
>>> MTA on the media at all - and install should of course be possible
>>> without network connectivity - we should be in charge of which mailer
>>> goes there. It should not be left to chance.
>
>> I really really don't want to make that decision, because no matter _what_
>> decision I make, people with pitchforks are going to come after me.  So I'm
>> perfectly happy to make _no_ decision and let the tool sort it out.

I can only imagine the reactions if/when somebody submits some niche MTA 
into the repository mid-release that happens to get selected over exim.

> That by itself /is/ a decision...

If the selection was truly random, it would be a slightly different thing 
("see, we're carrying out a field-test to see which MTA is the best by 
installing random MTA" :) but as it stands... yum-randomizer plugin, 
anyone ;)

 	- Panu -

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Steven Bakker
 | 
7 Feb 12:47





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Wed, 2007-02-07 at 09:10 +0200, Panu Matilainen wrote:

> I can only imagine the reactions if/when somebody submits some niche MTA 
> into the repository mid-release that happens to get selected over exim.

Great! I just thought of "a00-compressing-mailer"; it
installs /usr/sbin/sendmail as a symlink to /bin/true. ;-)

-- Steven

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Horst H. von Brand
 | 
5 Feb 20:43





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Ralf Ertzinger <fedora <at> camperquake.de> wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 18:39:10 +0100, nodata wrote:
> > Are we really changing the default MTA just because of a cock-up in
> > resolving dependencies?

> No.
> We change it because sendmail sucks and needs to die.

Says who?
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Ralf Ertzinger
 | 
5 Feb 21:18





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Hi.

On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 16:43:59 -0300, Horst H. von Brand wrote

> > No.
> > We change it because sendmail sucks and needs to die.
> 
> Says who?

In all the discussions I have witnessed and participated in on this
particular subject (on this list and elsewhere) there has never
been a significant group wanting to keep sendmail.

Heated discussions will be led about what to replace it with, but
the usual consensus is that it has to go.

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Paul Howarth
 | 
5 Feb 21:38






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Mon, 2007-02-05 at 21:18 +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 16:43:59 -0300, Horst H. von Brand wrote
> 
> > > No.
> > > We change it because sendmail sucks and needs to die.
> > 
> > Says who?
> 
> In all the discussions I have witnessed and participated in on this
> particular subject (on this list and elsewhere) there has never
> been a significant group wanting to keep sendmail.
> 
> Heated discussions will be led about what to replace it with, but
> the usual consensus is that it has to go.

Perhaps that's because all of us that are quite happy with sendmail know
that it's only a "yum install sendmail-cf" away and don't really care if
it's the default or not?

Paul.

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Chris Adams
 | 
6 Feb 04:04






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Once upon a time, Ralf Ertzinger <fedora <at> camperquake.de> said:
> In all the discussions I have witnessed and participated in on this
> particular subject (on this list and elsewhere) there has never
> been a significant group wanting to keep sendmail.

That's because people get flamed to a crisp when they even suggest
sendmail.  I still use it on almost all of my servers.

-- 
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Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.

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Matthew Miller
 | 
6 Feb 15:15






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 09:04:58PM -0600, Chris Adams wrote:
> That's because people get flamed to a crisp when they even suggest
> sendmail.  I still use it on almost all of my servers.

sendmail can do things no other MTA can. Period.

99.44% of people do not need those things, but the remainder _really_ needs
them.

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David Nielsen
 | 
6 Feb 15:42






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


tir, 06 02 2007 kl. 09:15 -0500, skrev Matthew Miller:
> On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 09:04:58PM -0600, Chris Adams wrote:
> > That's because people get flamed to a crisp when they even suggest
> > sendmail.  I still use it on almost all of my servers.
> 
> sendmail can do things no other MTA can. Period.
> 
> 99.44% of people do not need those things, but the remainder _really_ needs
> them.

Should we let the needs of less than 1% of users dictate such decisions,
especially when:

a) Sendmail is not exactly known for being easy to setup
b) That less than 1% of people would be more that capable of removing
say exim and install sendmail.

- David

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Richard Hughes
 | 
6 Feb 16:02





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 15:42 +0100, David Nielsen wrote:
> Should we let the needs of less than 1% of users dictate such
> decisions,
> especially when:
> 
> a) Sendmail is not exactly known for being easy to setup
> b) That less than 1% of people would be more that capable of removing
> say exim and install sendmail. 

I really don't see what all the fuss is about, the sort of user that can
configure sendmail *really* should know how to do "yum install sendmail"

Surely the default should be not to include an MTA, I'm guessing a large
majority of people never one it anyway (myself included).

Richard.

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Jesse Keating
 | 
6 Feb 16:30






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tuesday 06 February 2007 10:02, Richard Hughes wrote:
> Surely the default should be not to include an MTA, I'm guessing a large
> majority of people never one it anyway (myself included).

That would require creating something to take the place of the smtpdaemon 
requirement of things like mdadm, fetchmail, logwatch, etc...

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Richard Hughes
 | 
6 Feb 16:37





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 10:30 -0500, Jesse Keating wrote:
> That would require creating something to take the place of the
> smtpdaemon 
> requirement of things like mdadm, fetchmail, logwatch, etc...

How many "Desktop" users configure logwatch, fetchmail or mdadm? On the
server spin sure, but on a Desktop?

Richard.

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Jesse Keating
 | 
6 Feb 16:48






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tuesday 06 February 2007 10:37, Richard Hughes wrote:
> How many "Desktop" users configure logwatch, fetchmail or mdadm? On the
> server spin sure, but on a Desktop?

*shrug* I can certainly see mdadm used on a desktop that uses local raid to 
store important data, like ogg files.  Fetchmail is still unfortunately used 
a lot :/

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Tomas Mraz
 | 
6 Feb 17:06






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 10:48 -0500, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Tuesday 06 February 2007 10:37, Richard Hughes wrote:
> > How many "Desktop" users configure logwatch, fetchmail or mdadm? On the
> > server spin sure, but on a Desktop?
> 
> *shrug* I can certainly see mdadm used on a desktop that uses local raid to 
> store important data, like ogg files.  Fetchmail is still unfortunately used 
> a lot :/

Plus smartd for watching your harddrives and crond and .....

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Ralf Ertzinger
 | 
6 Feb 18:02





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Hi.

On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:48:54 -0500, Jesse Keating wrote:

> *shrug* I can certainly see mdadm used on a desktop that uses local
> raid to store important data, like ogg files.  Fetchmail is still
> unfortunately used a lot :/

Well, there certainly needs to be a way to tell users that one of their
hard disks is about to die.
Maybe (stupid idea, I know) something that talks to the notification daemon
when smart or mdadm send a mail.

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Nicolas Mailhot
 | 
11 Feb 00:52





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Ralf Ertzinger a écrit :
> Well, there certainly needs to be a way to tell users that one of their
> hard disks is about to die.
These things need to be moved to dbus with an optionnal dbus-to-sendmail 
remoter sink

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Richard Hughes
 | 
11 Feb 00:58





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Sun, 2007-02-11 at 07:52 +0800, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> These things need to be moved to dbus with an optionnal
> dbus-to-sendmail 
> remoter sink

Agree, then we can pop up a nice libnotify warning box for the desktop
user just like we do when the battery is going to explode.

Richard.

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Horst H. von Brand
 | 
6 Feb 22:16





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Richard Hughes <hughsient <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 10:30 -0500, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > That would require creating something to take the place of the
> > smtpdaemon 
> > requirement of things like mdadm, fetchmail, logwatch, etc...

> How many "Desktop" users configure logwatch,

More useful for the "desktop user" than "servers" (better see a summary of
what looks fishy than having to wade through the full logs)

>                                              fetchmail

This is a /desktop/ program, for mail handling by final users (specially
ones with intermittent conectivity). It would be quite out of place on a
server, IMHO.

>                                                        or mdadm?

RAID isn't too common right now, but all the (higher-end) desktop machines
I've bought lately have RAID controllers built in.

>                                                                  On the
> server spin sure, but on a Desktop?

Define "desktop system". Many here will describe a development machine,
with several services set up for testing and development. Even my notebook
would qualify as "server"...
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Bruno Wolff III
 | 
6 Feb 22:41





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 18:16:51 -0300,
  "Horst H. von Brand" <vonbrand <at> inf.utfsm.cl> wrote:
> 
> RAID isn't too common right now, but all the (higher-end) desktop machines
> I've bought lately have RAID controllers built in.

Those are going to be crap anyway. You really want to use software raid
rather than those. And all you need for software raid is 2 hard drives.
So this isn't something that a desktop user would have to go two far
out of their way for.

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Matthew Miller
 | 
6 Feb 18:21






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 10:30:40AM -0500, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > Surely the default should be not to include an MTA, I'm guessing a large
> > majority of people never one it anyway (myself included).
> That would require creating something to take the place of the smtpdaemon 
> requirement of things like mdadm, fetchmail, logwatch, etc...

Yes, what's Really Needed (tm) is a very lightweight smtpdaemon designed to
fill this need and nothing more.

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Bill Nottingham
 | 
6 Feb 19:35






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Matthew Miller (mattdm <at> mattdm.org) said: 
> Yes, what's Really Needed (tm) is a very lightweight smtpdaemon designed to
> fill this need and nothing more.

ssmtp?

Bill

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Matthew Miller
 | 
6 Feb 22:18






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 01:35:20PM -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> Matthew Miller (mattdm <at> mattdm.org) said: 
> > Yes, what's Really Needed (tm) is a very lightweight smtpdaemon designed to
> > fill this need and nothing more.
> ssmtp?

Maybe. It'd be nice for it to do something with root (i.e. admin) mail
without relying on another host.

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Ian Burrell
 | 
7 Feb 02:12





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On 2/6/07, Matthew Miller <mattdm <at> mattdm.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 10:30:40AM -0500, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > > Surely the default should be not to include an MTA, I'm guessing a large
> > > majority of people never one it anyway (myself included).
> > That would require creating something to take the place of the smtpdaemon
> > requirement of things like mdadm, fetchmail, logwatch, etc...
>
> Yes, what's Really Needed (tm) is a very lightweight smtpdaemon designed to
> fill this need and nothing more.
>

What is needed for most desktops and servers is an MTA that is not an
SMTP daemon.  They need /usr/sbin/sendmail that can send mail through
SMTP to the local mail server (smart host).  It also needs to be able
to deliver mail locally.  I suppose it would be okay if it could send
email to arbitrary hosts on the Internet.  It probably needs to be a
daemon to retry failed messages.

Very few machines need to be able to receive email and listen to SMTP.
 Anyone who needs to receive email will know enough to install and
configure their mail server of choice.

 - Ian

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Davide Bolcioni
 | 
6 Feb 18:26





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tuesday 06 February 2007 4:02:21 pm Richard Hughes wrote:

> Surely the default should be not to include an MTA, I'm guessing a large
> majority of people never one it anyway (myself included).

If my memory serves me correctly, an MTA is a requirement spelled out in RFC 
1123. Having a Unix host without an MTA would surely be surprising, desktop 
use or not.

Davide Bolcioni
-- 
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David Nielsen
 | 
6 Feb 19:05






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


tir, 06 02 2007 kl. 18:26 +0100, skrev Davide Bolcioni:
> On Tuesday 06 February 2007 4:02:21 pm Richard Hughes wrote:
> 
> > Surely the default should be not to include an MTA, I'm guessing a large
> > majority of people never one it anyway (myself included).
> 
> If my memory serves me correctly, an MTA is a requirement spelled out in RFC 
> 1123. Having a Unix host without an MTA would surely be surprising, desktop 
> use or not.

RFC 1123: Requirements for Internet Hosts -- Application and Support

Would a desktop technically fall into that catagory. Not to mention the
same RFC talks of telnet - want telnet by default? old, crufty, insecure
- pick any 3.

- David Nielsen

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Matthew Miller
 | 
6 Feb 18:20






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 03:42:48PM +0100, David Nielsen wrote:
> > 99.44% of people do not need those things, but the remainder _really_
> > needs them.
> Should we let the needs of less than 1% of users dictate such decisions,
> especially when:

Dictate? No. Sendmail definitely shouldn't be the default.

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Alan Cox
 | 
6 Feb 16:05






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 09:15:37AM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
> sendmail can do things no other MTA can. Period.

This is false. Sorry. There is nothing sendmail can do that exim cannot as both
are (within the limits of memory) turing complete.

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David Woodhouse
 | 
6 Feb 18:05






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 10:05 -0500, Alan Cox wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 09:15:37AM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > sendmail can do things no other MTA can. Period.
> 
> This is false. Sorry. There is nothing sendmail can do that exim
> cannot as both are (within the limits of memory) turing complete. 

Well, Exim's ACLs aren't _quite_ Turing-complete because it limits
recursion to about 20 calls iirc. But that doesn't stop silly people
like Tony from doing this:
http://www.exim.org/mail-archives/exim-users/Week-of-Mon-20050328/msg00086.html

I have actually used recursion in ACLs for real:
http://david.woodhou.se/eximconf/include/acl-helo-csv

I think the rewrite rules are Turing-complete.

Matthew, do you have any _examples_ of things which you believe can't be
done in Exim? 

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Alan Cox
 | 
6 Feb 18:09






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 05:05:42PM +0000, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 10:05 -0500, Alan Cox wrote:
> > On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 09:15:37AM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > > sendmail can do things no other MTA can. Period.
> > 
> > This is false. Sorry. There is nothing sendmail can do that exim
> > cannot as both are (within the limits of memory) turing complete. 
> 
> Well, Exim's ACLs aren't _quite_ Turing-complete because it limits
> recursion to about 20 calls iirc. But that doesn't stop silly people

So use the iterative version of the algorithm

I do like the fact the silly hacks like hanoi are readable in exim 8)

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Matthew Miller
 | 
6 Feb 18:23






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 10:05:00AM -0500, Alan Cox wrote:
> > sendmail can do things no other MTA can. Period.
> This is false. Sorry. There is nothing sendmail can do that exim cannot as
> both are (within the limits of memory) turing complete.

Well, sure, and we have the source and all. So add "without significant
coding".

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David Woodhouse
 | 
6 Feb 18:37






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 12:23 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 10:05:00AM -0500, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > sendmail can do things no other MTA can. Period.
> > This is false. Sorry. There is nothing sendmail can do that exim cannot as
> > both are (within the limits of memory) turing complete.
> 
> Well, sure, and we have the source and all. So add "without
> significant coding". 

Don't be disingenuous. Obviously even _postfix_ can manage a bunch of
stuff if you're willing to hack on the source code to implement it. Alan
was talking about the binaries we ship; just using normal configuration.

Do you have examples, or were you just making it up for effect?

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Chris Adams
 | 
6 Feb 19:10






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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Once upon a time, Alan Cox <alan <at> redhat.com> said:
> On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 09:15:37AM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > sendmail can do things no other MTA can. Period.
> 
> This is false. Sorry. There is nothing sendmail can do that exim cannot as both
> are (within the limits of memory) turing complete.

milter?

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David Woodhouse
 | 
6 Feb 19:22






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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 12:10 -0600, Chris Adams wrote:
> > This is false. Sorry. There is nothing sendmail can do that exim cannot as both
> > are (within the limits of memory) turing complete.
> 
> milter? 

Which one?

Arguably we cannot ship Exim in a package named "sendmail" in Fedora --
I'm sure that'd never pass review either -- so perhaps that's another
thing that sendmail can do but which Exim can't?

If there's _really_ something which we can't do directly in an almost
Turing-complete configuration language, then we _can_ call out to
dynamically loaded libraries. But in general we don't need to.

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Chris Adams
 | 
6 Feb 19:28






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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Once upon a time, David Woodhouse <dwmw2 <at> infradead.org> said:
> On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 12:10 -0600, Chris Adams wrote:
> > > This is false. Sorry. There is nothing sendmail can do that exim cannot as both
> > > are (within the limits of memory) turing complete.
> > 
> > milter? 
> 
> Which one?

sendmail has milter - exim does not (at least as shipped by Fedora
AFAICT).  No amount of configuration language is going to change that
(unless exim's config language allows you to open TCP sockets and talk
the milter protocol).  Also, exim does not provide the libmilter client
library.

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Ralf Ertzinger
 | 
6 Feb 21:18





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Hi.

Chris Adams schrieb:

> sendmail has milter - exim does not (at least as shipped by Fedora
> AFAICT).  No amount of configuration language is going to change that
> (unless exim's config language allows you to open TCP sockets and talk
> the milter protocol).  Also, exim does not provide the libmilter client
> library.

I was under the impression that milter allowed sendmail to do things
(like spam and virus scanning on the fly) that exim can do without
external help. If that is so then exim does not have milter because
it does not need it.
I may be wrong though.

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Matthew Miller
 | 
6 Feb 22:21






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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 06:22:37PM +0000, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > > This is false. Sorry. There is nothing sendmail can do that exim cannot as both
> > > are (within the limits of memory) turing complete.
> > milter? 
> Which one?

Any arbitrary existing one. That's the point.

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David Woodhouse
 | 
6 Feb 23:47






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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 16:21 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 06:22:37PM +0000, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > > > This is false. Sorry. There is nothing sendmail can do that exim cannot as both
> > > > are (within the limits of memory) turing complete.
> > > milter? 
> > Which one?
> 
> Any arbitrary existing one. That's the point.

Yet you don't seem to be able to _specify_ one which we might actually
want to run; one which provides functionality that Exim can't already
manage for itself. Thus the point seems rather contrived. You might as
well claim "Exim cannot obey sendmail master.cf", as if _that_ means
something real. It wasn't what I was asking.

Sendmail and Postfix can't run Exim's dynamically loadable local_scan or
expansion functions either. I wasn't disingenuous enough to list those
as examples of what Postfix cannot do -- I gave real-world examples of
actualy things I do with Exim which I'm led to believe postfix isn't
capable of.

Are you able to do the same, to back up your claim that sendmail can do
real things that Exim cannot? I think we've conceded UUCP already,
without much regret. Got anything we might care about?

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Matthew Miller
 | 
7 Feb 01:48






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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 10:47:53PM +0000, David Woodhouse wrote:
> Are you able to do the same, to back up your claim that sendmail can do
> real things that Exim cannot? I think we've conceded UUCP already,
> without much regret. Got anything we might care about?

Not for the desktop MTA, certainly. Nor for the default MTA either (although
as noted, I think exim is overkill there too).

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David Woodhouse
 | 
7 Feb 02:28






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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 19:48 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
> Not for the desktop MTA, certainly.

Not for _any_ MTA as far as I can tell. Although I conceded UUCP I
suspect we could even do that if we cared.

>  Nor for the default MTA either (although
> as noted, I think exim is overkill there too). 

There's a lot to be said for a dead simple program as /usr/lib/sendmail
which doesn't listen on port 25 and which isn't capable of much more
than sending to an external smarthost after a bit of address rewriting.
I don't think we even want local delivery.

It's obviously something that a no-setuid installation of Exim could do
with a very simple configuration file, but you're probably right that
it's overkill. Although it does have the advantage that you then have a
single tool which covers users from the very low end to the very high
end without needing to change tools when they outgrow it.

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Leszek Matok
 | 
7 Feb 07:42





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Dnia 06-02-2007, wto o godzinie 22:47 +0000, David Woodhouse napisał(a):
> Yet you don't seem to be able to _specify_ one which we might actually
> want to run; one which provides functionality that Exim can't already
> manage for itself.
A proprietary milter speaking proprietary protocol with some proprietary
daemon (I know I've seen some anti-virus solutions using milter,
probably there are some anti-spam commercial systems as well).

> Are you able to do the same, to back up your claim that sendmail can do
> real things that Exim cannot? I think we've conceded UUCP already,
> without much regret. Got anything we might care about?
We, the Sendmail users, are so happy with our MTA that we've never tried
to really use Exim.

I myself experimented with Exim few years ago, but I couldn't make it
accept mail for wildcard domain (user@*.somewhere.com). Probably an easy
thing if you know its language, but it was so much easier to just use
Sendmail. I can't really tell if Exim can't do this (actually, I guess
it can), so there's no real point in arguing with you that it can't.

The problem here is that in order to really compare two advanced
programs, you have to become an expert in both, which doesn't make sense
(unless comparing the two programs is your job or religion :)).

By the way, does anyone know, which MTA will be the default for RHEL 5?

Lam



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Jesse Keating
 | 
7 Feb 14:46






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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Wednesday 07 February 2007 01:42, Leszek Matok wrote:
> By the way, does anyone know, which MTA will be the default for RHEL 5?

I think it will be sendmail.  Path of least surprise.  Much harder to make any 
sort of change like that in RHEL :/

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Horst H. von Brand
 | 
7 Feb 23:20





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Jesse Keating <jkeating <at> redhat.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday 07 February 2007 01:42, Leszek Matok wrote:
> > By the way, does anyone know, which MTA will be the default for RHEL 5?

> I think it will be sendmail.  Path of least surprise.  Much harder to
> make any sort of change like that in RHEL :/

That alone would be a reason of some weight to keep the same for Fedora...
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Matej Cepl
 | 
8 Feb 14:58






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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Jesse Keating scripst:
> I think it will be sendmail.  Path of least surprise.  Much harder to make any 
> sort of change like that in RHEL :/

I would say that substantial part of all sendmails on Linux are running
RHEL anyways (or other way around, that substantial part of RHELs are used
for running sendmail). However, this thread began (long time ago :-))
thinking about Fedora *Desktop* spin. I would say that really desktop
users should be getting something more palatable than sendmail.

The problem of the situation and the reason why this whole discussion
seems to me to be pointless is that there is really not good *well-tested
and mature* MTA, which would just deliver to smarthost *and* locally,
so we have to choose between different not-perfect huge MTAs scaled down
to the personal size. The MTA which I would love was masqmail
(http://dag.wieers.com/rpm/packages/masqmail/), but that was abandoned
even by its author (and probably the only developer). Oh well.

Matej

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Benny Amorsen
 | 
6 Feb 18:21





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


>>>>> "MM" == Matthew Miller <mattdm <at> mattdm.org> writes:

MM> On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 09:04:58PM -0600, Chris Adams wrote:
>> That's because people get flamed to a crisp when they even suggest
>> sendmail. I still use it on almost all of my servers.

MM> sendmail can do things no other MTA can. Period.

MM> 99.44% of people do not need those things, but the remainder
MM> _really_ needs them.

Is there really anything useful left which exim can't do? UUCP bang
paths are the only limitation I can think of off the cuff, and
hopefully noone uses those. Exim can do UUCP with domain addressing
though, if anyone still uses UUCP.

/Benny

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Peter Robinson
 | 
6 Feb 19:51





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


> >>>>> "MM" == Matthew Miller <mattdm <at> mattdm.org> writes:
>
> MM> On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 09:04:58PM -0600, Chris Adams wrote:
> >> That's because people get flamed to a crisp when they even suggest
> >> sendmail. I still use it on almost all of my servers.
>
> MM> sendmail can do things no other MTA can. Period.
>
> MM> 99.44% of people do not need those things, but the remainder
> MM> _really_ needs them.
>
> Is there really anything useful left which exim can't do? UUCP bang
> paths are the only limitation I can think of off the cuff, and
> hopefully noone uses those. Exim can do UUCP with domain addressing
> though, if anyone still uses UUCP.

Yes, I have a few sites that require it.... but then I also know how
to 'yum install sendmail' too, as I'm sure just about everyone who
uses UUCP does, or else compiles sendmail themsleves.

Peter

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Nils Philippsen
 | 
7 Feb 15:23






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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 18:51 +0000, Peter Robinson wrote:
> > >>>>> "MM" == Matthew Miller <mattdm <at> mattdm.org> writes:
> >
> > MM> On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 09:04:58PM -0600, Chris Adams wrote:
> > >> That's because people get flamed to a crisp when they even suggest
> > >> sendmail. I still use it on almost all of my servers.
> >
> > MM> sendmail can do things no other MTA can. Period.
> >
> > MM> 99.44% of people do not need those things, but the remainder
> > MM> _really_ needs them.
> >
> > Is there really anything useful left which exim can't do? UUCP bang
> > paths are the only limitation I can think of off the cuff, and
> > hopefully noone uses those. Exim can do UUCP with domain addressing
> > though, if anyone still uses UUCP.
> 
> Yes, I have a few sites that require it.... but then I also know how
> to 'yum install sendmail' too, as I'm sure just about everyone who
> uses UUCP does, or else compiles sendmail themsleves.

This would put me in the "just not about everyone" group as I use
postfix and UUCP. It was really easy to setup, but I might have to try
out something different for more effective anti-spam stuff.

Nils
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Jarod Wilson
 | 
7 Feb 15:36






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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Wednesday 07 February 2007 09:23, Nils Philippsen wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 18:51 +0000, Peter Robinson wrote:
> > > >>>>> "MM" == Matthew Miller <mattdm <at> mattdm.org> writes:
> > >
> > > MM> On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 09:04:58PM -0600, Chris Adams wrote:
> > > >> That's because people get flamed to a crisp when they even suggest
> > > >> sendmail. I still use it on almost all of my servers.
> > >
> > > MM> sendmail can do things no other MTA can. Period.
> > >
> > > MM> 99.44% of people do not need those things, but the remainder
> > > MM> _really_ needs them.
> > >
> > > Is there really anything useful left which exim can't do? UUCP bang
> > > paths are the only limitation I can think of off the cuff, and
> > > hopefully noone uses those. Exim can do UUCP with domain addressing
> > > though, if anyone still uses UUCP.
> >
> > Yes, I have a few sites that require it.... but then I also know how
> > to 'yum install sendmail' too, as I'm sure just about everyone who
> > uses UUCP does, or else compiles sendmail themsleves.
>
> This would put me in the "just not about everyone" group as I use
> postfix and UUCP. It was really easy to setup, but I might have to try
> out something different for more effective anti-spam stuff.

I'm a postfix user too. No uucp though. Dual-mta postfix setup with maia 
mailguard (a fork of amavisd-new, if you will) in between nuking spam. (With 
some counter-measures at the first postfix instance level too). Works 
extremely well for me.

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David Woodhouse
 | 
7 Feb 16:21






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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Wed, 2007-02-07 at 09:36 -0500, Jarod Wilson wrote:
> As for the performance issue someone else quoted regarding exim... At one 
> point in time, I worked at a place that had lots of mail servers moving tens 
> of millions of emails per day. There was no way in hell exim could handle the 
> load (we tried). Both sendmail and qmail (ew) had their issues as well. 
> Postfix was rock-solid, and had no problems holding up under the stress. 
> Granted, this is a few years ago now, so postfix could have regressed 
> (unlikely) and the others (save qmail) could have improved... 

I've heard anecdotes the other way round too, and there are some very
large deployments of Exim. I suspect that it depends a lot on how
well-tuned it is. With large queues, you definitely need the
'split_spool_directory' option turned on to avoid putting too many files
in a single directory -- it's going to suck quite hard otherwise;
especially on older kernels. You may also want multiple queue-runner
processes in parallel, if you have a large number of mails stuck on the
queue that aren't immediately deliverable.

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Jarod Wilson
 | 
7 Feb 16:29






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Wednesday 07 February 2007 10:21, David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-02-07 at 09:36 -0500, Jarod Wilson wrote:
> > As for the performance issue someone else quoted regarding exim... At one
> > point in time, I worked at a place that had lots of mail servers moving
> > tens of millions of emails per day. There was no way in hell exim could
> > handle the load (we tried). Both sendmail and qmail (ew) had their issues
> > as well. Postfix was rock-solid, and had no problems holding up under the
> > stress. Granted, this is a few years ago now, so postfix could have
> > regressed (unlikely) and the others (save qmail) could have improved...
>
> I've heard anecdotes the other way round too, and there are some very
> large deployments of Exim. I suspect that it depends a lot on how
> well-tuned it is. With large queues, you definitely need the
> 'split_spool_directory' option turned on to avoid putting too many files
> in a single directory -- it's going to suck quite hard otherwise;
> especially on older kernels. You may also want multiple queue-runner
> processes in parallel, if you have a large number of mails stuck on the
> queue that aren't immediately deliverable.

Cool, I figured the situation was probably better nowadays. My anecdote is 
from at least three or four years ago on Red Hat Linux 7.x systems.

Note to self: give exim a try one of these days...

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Benny Amorsen
 | 
8 Feb 11:32





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


>>>>> "NP" == Nils Philippsen <nphilipp <at> redhat.com> writes:

NP> This would put me in the "just not about everyone" group as I use
NP> postfix and UUCP. It was really easy to setup, but I might have to
NP> try out something different for more effective anti-spam stuff.

Notice that Exim CAN do UUCP, just not UUCP bang paths. That is, the
old foo!bar!baz stuff.

/Benny

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David Woodhouse
 | 
8 Feb 11:37






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Thu, 2007-02-08 at 11:32 +0100, Benny Amorsen wrote:
> Notice that Exim CAN do UUCP, just not UUCP bang paths. That is, the
> old foo!bar!baz stuff. 

Actually, we can almost certainly handle that with a cunning bit of
rewriting. You rewrite 'foo!bar!baz' to 'bar!baz <at> foo' on the input, then
process it as UUCP to host foo and make sure it's presented correctly on
the way out.

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Nils Philippsen
 | 
8 Feb 15:35






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Thu, 2007-02-08 at 11:32 +0100, Benny Amorsen wrote:
> >>>>> "NP" == Nils Philippsen <nphilipp <at> redhat.com> writes:
> 
> NP> This would put me in the "just not about everyone" group as I use
> NP> postfix and UUCP. It was really easy to setup, but I might have to
> NP> try out something different for more effective anti-spam stuff.
> 
> Notice that Exim CAN do UUCP, just not UUCP bang paths. That is, the
> old foo!bar!baz stuff.

And I'm not masochistic enough to actually want bang paths ;-), I just
think that UUCP is a good way to hook up a machine with mail that's not
always on and gets dynamic IP addresses. I just wanted to counter the
notion a bit that everyone who uses UUCP uses sendmail.

Nils
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Bill Nottingham
 | 
6 Feb 19:34






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Matthew Miller (mattdm <at> mattdm.org) said: 
> sendmail can do things no other MTA can. Period.
> 
> 99.44% of people do not need those things, but the remainder _really_ needs
> them.

0.56% of people need Towers of Hanoi? (don't mind me, just passing
through...)

Bill

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Chris Adams
 | 
6 Feb 19:53






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Once upon a time, Bill Nottingham <notting <at> redhat.com> said:
> Matthew Miller (mattdm <at> mattdm.org) said: 
> > sendmail can do things no other MTA can. Period.
> > 
> > 99.44% of people do not need those things, but the remainder _really_ needs
> > them.
> 
> 0.56% of people need Towers of Hanoi? (don't mind me, just passing
> through...)

Alan is the one who brought that up, and IIRC in relation to exim, not
sendmail.
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David Woodhouse
 | 
7 Feb 01:10






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 12:53 -0600, Chris Adams wrote:
> 
> > 0.56% of people need Towers of Hanoi? (don't mind me, just passing
> > through...)

:)

> Alan is the one who brought that up, and IIRC in relation to exim, not
> sendmail. 

Well, there were folks claiming that sendmail is capable of things that
Exim can't do, although they don't seem able to give any real examples
of what kind of tasks they're thinking of. Having exhausted the
real-world possibilities of things you might actually want to do with an
MTA, we thought maybe they were thinking of Hanoi?

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Stephen John Smoogen
 | 
7 Feb 04:55





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On 2/6/07, David Woodhouse <dwmw2 <at> infradead.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 12:53 -0600, Chris Adams wrote:
> >
> > > 0.56% of people need Towers of Hanoi? (don't mind me, just passing
> > > through...)
>
> :)
>
> > Alan is the one who brought that up, and IIRC in relation to exim, not
> > sendmail.
>
> Well, there were folks claiming that sendmail is capable of things that
> Exim can't do, although they don't seem able to give any real examples
> of what kind of tasks they're thinking of. Having exhausted the
> real-world possibilities of things you might actually want to do with an
> MTA, we thought maybe they were thinking of Hanoi?
>

I can give one legitimate reason for not including exim. Including
exim would make David Woodhouse happy after 7 years of asking it in
Red Hat/Fedora Linux. If exim becomes the default SMTP in FC7.. I
expect David would retire shortly after as his life ambition would
have been completed.. instead it should be listed as something to be
brought up at FC8.

To be honest, all I ask for is that if it is not sendmail, that

a) First boot has an advanced option to select which MTA you want to
use versus having to select it via a kickstart


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Horst H. von Brand
 | 
6 Feb 22:08





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Chris Adams <cmadams <at> hiwaay.net> wrote:
> Once upon a time, Ralf Ertzinger <fedora <at> camperquake.de> said:
> > In all the discussions I have witnessed and participated in on this
> > particular subject (on this list and elsewhere) there has never
> > been a significant group wanting to keep sendmail.

> That's because people get flamed to a crisp when they even suggest
> sendmail.  I still use it on almost all of my servers.

So do I.
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Nicolas Mailhot
 | 
11 Feb 00:58





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


David Woodhouse a écrit :
> I note you make no pretence at claiming Postfix can do these things;
> only arguments that I shouldn't _want_ to
And postfix has a nice modular secure design exim lacks. Now you tell us 
how to get it with exim. It's easy to pick up the strong point of one 
implemetation and declare it's obviously better then the others because 
of it (disregarding all other points)

Note you can do greylisting with postfix, I happen not to use it, but 
any 5s postfix greylist googling will return lots of hits.

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Benny Amorsen
 | 
5 Feb 13:11





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


>>>>> "DW" == David Woodhouse <dwmw2 <at> infradead.org> writes:

DW> Obviously, not everyone wants to do quite as much with the MTA as
DW> I do. It's also important that it's secure, it's well-documented,
DW> and that the configuration file is actually understandable by a
DW> human rather than resembling line noise. Exim fulfils those
DW> criteria very well, and is a good choice for the whole range of
DW> people from newbies to nutters like myself.

The configuration file advantage is only because the others are so
horrid. Exim's habit of putting conditions at the end instead of at
the beginning still confuses me.

Postfix is worse though, and noone needs to be told about sendmail.
All three have simple configuration if your needs are very simple.

/Benny

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Bojan Smojver
 | 
7 Feb 07:46





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


David Woodhouse <dwmw2 <at> infradead.org> writes:

> If we ship a fully-fledged MTA as default, then Exim seems to make most
> sense.

[..snip..]

> But again, there's an
> advantage to having a single tool which can provide the _full_ range of
> functionality from low end to high end without the user ever having to
> throw one tool away and start learning a new one from scratch because
> they want to do something which the one they're currently using can't
> handle.

Never used Exim, so I'm not really sure how much truth is in the author's
statement:

"The bottom line is that Exim does not perform particularly well in
environments where the queue regularly gets very large. It was never
designed for this; deliveries from the queue were always intended to be
'exceptions' rather than the norm."

Wouldn't that be a bit of a concern, at least on the server? Maybe we should
have one default for the Server and some other for the Desktop spin?

One other question - do Fedora packages ship with Exim set SUID root? Is that
something to worry about?

PS. As I said, never used Exim - just asking out of curiosity.


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Ralf Ertzinger
 | 
7 Feb 09:54





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Hi.

On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 06:46:41 +0000 (UTC), Bojan Smojver wrote:

> "The bottom line is that Exim does not perform particularly well in
> environments where the queue regularly gets very large. It was never
> designed for this; deliveries from the queue were always intended to
> be 'exceptions' rather than the norm."

Depends on what you call 'large'. 10000 mails in the queue are not really
a problem.

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Dumitru Ciobarcianu
 | 
7 Feb 11:38





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Wed, 2007-02-07 at 09:54 +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 06:46:41 +0000 (UTC), Bojan Smojver wrote:
> 
> > "The bottom line is that Exim does not perform particularly well in
> > environments where the queue regularly gets very large. It was never
> > designed for this; deliveries from the queue were always intended to
> > be 'exceptions' rather than the norm."
> 
> Depends on what you call 'large'. 10000 mails in the queue are not really
> a problem.

10000 mails in a queue does not qualify as an "large" queue in my
experience. try 100000 :) And we are not even talking about multiple
queues.

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David Woodhouse
 | 
7 Feb 13:36






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Wed, 2007-02-07 at 09:54 +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 06:46:41 +0000 (UTC), Bojan Smojver wrote:
> 
> > "The bottom line is that Exim does not perform particularly well in
> > environments where the queue regularly gets very large. It was never
> > designed for this; deliveries from the queue were always intended to
> > be 'exceptions' rather than the norm."
> 
> Depends on what you call 'large'. 10000 mails in the queue are not really
> a problem.

I think that comment predates the split spool directory stuff as well. 

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Horst H. von Brand
 | 
7 Feb 23:23





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Bojan Smojver <bojan <at> rexursive.com> wrote:
> David Woodhouse <dwmw2 <at> infradead.org> writes:
> > If we ship a fully-fledged MTA as default, then Exim seems to make most
> > sense.
> 
> [..snip..]
> 
> > But again, there's an
> > advantage to having a single tool which can provide the _full_ range of
> > functionality from low end to high end without the user ever having to
> > throw one tool away and start learning a new one from scratch because
> > they want to do something which the one they're currently using can't
> > handle.
> 
> Never used Exim, so I'm not really sure how much truth is in the author's
> statement:
> 
> "The bottom line is that Exim does not perform particularly well in
> environments where the queue regularly gets very large. It was never
> designed for this; deliveries from the queue were always intended to be
> 'exceptions' rather than the norm."

I have a machine here (FallbackMX for our mailing list handler, will
probably do the same duty for our regular mailservers soon) where the queue
is normally around 2000 messages, with highs in the low 4000s.
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David Woodhouse
 | 
7 Feb 23:41






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Wed, 2007-02-07 at 19:23 -0300, Horst H. von Brand wrote:
> I have a machine here (FallbackMX for our mailing list handler, will
> probably do the same duty for our regular mailservers soon) where the queue
> is normally around 2000 messages, with highs in the low 4000s. 

I see no reason why Exim shouldn't cope perfectly well with that.

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Bojan Smojver
 | 
8 Feb 00:55





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


David Woodhouse <dwmw2 <at> infradead.org> writes:

> I see no reason why Exim shouldn't cope perfectly well with that.

Any comment regarding the SUID stuff?

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David Woodhouse
 | 
8 Feb 01:02






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Wed, 2007-02-07 at 23:55 +0000, Bojan Smojver wrote:
> Any comment regarding the SUID stuff? 

Oh, sorry -- I missed that. Yes, of course we ship with it suid root. It
normally drops privileges almost immediately, but for local deliveries
it needs to keep them. If you were running it in a mode where it doesn't
do any local delivery but just ships everything off to a smarthost, you
wouldn't need it setuid.

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Bojan Smojver
 | 
8 Feb 02:55





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


David Woodhouse <dwmw2 <at> infradead.org> writes:

> Oh, sorry -- I missed that. Yes, of course we ship with it suid root. It
> normally drops privileges almost immediately, but for local deliveries
> it needs to keep them.

OK, thanks for that explanation. I see there is a lot of MTA discussion out
there on the net, especially about security architectures of various different
MTAs, but it all appears to boil down to "local delivery == root at some point".
Whether non-monolithic architecture of Postfix is better overall in terms of
security appears to be a very contentious issue, but it doesn't seem to impact
local delivery (i.e. this is still root at many points).

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Joachim Frieben
 | 
3 Feb 21:12





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


> I noticed that Exim is being installed as the default MTA, at least on 
> the Desktop installation of Fedora 7 test1. Is this change intentional? 
> I can't seem to find it mentioned anywhere?!?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> /Thomas

I had posted a related bug report back in December 2006 because of "yum" pulling in "exim" from "FE" in order
to resolve a dependency on "/usr/sbin/sendmail" when installing "mutt" at:

  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=219920 .

The bug got closed by J. Katz after classification as "NOTABUG". The argument was that the "sendmail"
command is provided by several packages in "FC/FE" without particular ranking and "exim" simply seems to
win by alphabetical order compared to "postfix" or "sendmail" .. :-/
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Bill Nottingham
 | 
3 Feb 21:12






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Joachim Frieben (jfrieben <at> gmx.de) said: 
> The bug got closed by J. Katz after classification as "NOTABUG". The argument
> was that the "sendmail" command is provided by several packages in "FC/FE"
> without particular ranking and "exim" simply seems to win by alphabetical
> order compared to "postfix" or "sendmail" .. :-/

Shortest name, not alphabetical.

Bill

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Jesse Keating
 | 
3 Feb 21:39






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Saturday 03 February 2007 15:12, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> Shortest name, not alphabetical.

Well, if there were another mailer with the same length of exim, then 
alphabetical would win.  It's just a sort.

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Jesse Keating
 | 
3 Feb 21:38






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Saturday 03 February 2007 15:12, Joachim Frieben wrote:
> The bug got closed by J. Katz after classification as "NOTABUG". The
> argument was that the "sendmail" command is provided by several packages in
> "FC/FE" without particular ranking and "exim" simply seems to win by
> alphabetical order compared to "postfix" or "sendmail" .. :-/

Do you have any other suggestions on how to programattically decide what 
choice out of many options you'd use to satisfy a dep?

fooz
barz
billy
go

All of these virtually provide /usr/bin/whizbang  and use alternatives to 
handle this.

bingo requires /usr/bin/whizbang, and doesn't care which one.  What way to you 
decide which to grab?  Currently yum does a sort of all that 
provide /usr/bin/whizbang and picks the one at the top.  Shorter names sort 
before longer ones, so in this case, 'go' wins.

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Bill Nottingham
 | 
3 Feb 21:48






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Jesse Keating (jkeating <at> redhat.com) said: 
> All of these virtually provide /usr/bin/whizbang  and use alternatives to 
> handle this.

Parse the alternatives %post calls and use the priorities.

(No, I'm not serious.)

Bill

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Joachim Frieben
 | 
3 Feb 21:52





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


> Do you have any other suggestions on how to programattically decide what 
> choice out of many options you'd use to satisfy a dep?
> 
> fooz
> barz
> billy
> go
> 
> All of these virtually provide /usr/bin/whizbang  and use alternatives to 
> handle this.
> 
> bingo requires /usr/bin/whizbang, and doesn't care which one.  What way to
> you 
> decide which to grab?  Currently yum does a sort of all that 
> provide /usr/bin/whizbang and picks the one at the top.  Shorter names
> sort 
> before longer ones, so in this case, 'go' wins.
> 
> -- 
> Jesse Keating
> Release Engineer: Fedora

One possibility would be to prompt the user, once alternative package choices appear and to let him pick one
of them.

Btw, at the time I had posted my bug report, "Extras" and "Core" were disjoint entities, and I was
surprised/annoyed that a package from "Extras" got installed when there were equivalent packages
available in "Core". So , in this case, I would have expected "Core" to have priority over "Extras" which
appears rather reasonable to me.
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Jesse Keating
 | 
3 Feb 21:57






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Saturday 03 February 2007 15:52, Joachim Frieben wrote:
> One possibility would be to prompt the user, once alternative package
> choices appear and to let him pick one of them.

Yum/rpm transactions need to happen noninteractively.  Think Kickstart.

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Joachim Frieben
 | 
3 Feb 22:11





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


> Yum/rpm transactions need to happen noninteractively.  Think Kickstart.
> 
> -- 
> Jesse Keating
> Release Engineer: Fedora

Think "expect"?
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Jesse Keating
 | 
3 Feb 22:15






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Saturday 03 February 2007 16:11, Joachim Frieben wrote:
> Think "expect"?

You don't know how many people in the room just uttered disgusted sounds when 
I read this response out loud.

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Joachim Frieben
 | 
3 Feb 22:28





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


> You don't know how many people in the room just uttered disgusted sounds
> when 
> I read this response out loud.
> 
> -- 
> Jesse Keating
> Release Engineer: Fedora

No need to get sarcastic. I mentioned "expect" only as an example, and it's not even required: already now,
the -interactive- user input during an "anaconda" install procedure is processed in order to produce a
valid kickstart file for later use. I do not see any fundamental difference in this respect. If packages
can be selected by the user at will at install time, why not prompt him in case of anbiguities when the
dependencies get processed? Once the final package selection has been established, it can be retained
for the kickstart file, and for later automated installs, this question does not even need to be asked
again, ... right?
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Jesse Keating
 | 
3 Feb 22:46






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Saturday 03 February 2007 16:28, Joachim Frieben wrote:
> No need to get sarcastic. I mentioned "expect" only as an example, and it's
> not even required: already now, the -interactive- user input during an
> "anaconda" install procedure is processed in order to produce a valid
> kickstart file for later use. I do not see any fundamental difference in
> this respect. If packages can be selected by the user at will at install
> time, why not prompt him in case of anbiguities when the dependencies get
> processed? Once the final package selection has been established, it can be
> retained for the kickstart file, and for later automated installs, this
> question does not even need to be asked again, ... right?

Because the only time this question comes up is _not_ the installer.  And you 
don't use the installer to generate a kickstart file, many of us are 
perfectly happy creating those by hand, or porting them forward from previous 
releases.

Look, rpm/yum transactions need to be able to be non-interactive.  Period.

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Thomas M Steenholdt
 | 
4 Feb 00:16





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Jesse Keating wrote:
> 
> Look, rpm/yum transactions need to be able to be non-interactive.  Period.
> 

I agree - This is one of the places where the guys at Debian and Ubuntu 
has got it all wrong IMHO.

/Thomas

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Florian La Roche
 | 
3 Feb 22:09






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Sat, Feb 03, 2007 at 03:38:35PM -0500, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Saturday 03 February 2007 15:12, Joachim Frieben wrote:
> > The bug got closed by J. Katz after classification as "NOTABUG". The
> > argument was that the "sendmail" command is provided by several packages in
> > "FC/FE" without particular ranking and "exim" simply seems to win by
> > alphabetical order compared to "postfix" or "sendmail" .. :-/
> 
> Do you have any other suggestions on how to programattically decide what 
> choice out of many options you'd use to satisfy a dep?
> 
> fooz
> barz
> billy
> go
> 
> All of these virtually provide /usr/bin/whizbang  and use alternatives to 
> handle this.
> 
> bingo requires /usr/bin/whizbang, and doesn't care which one.  What way to you 
> decide which to grab?  Currently yum does a sort of all that 
> provide /usr/bin/whizbang and picks the one at the top.  Shorter names sort 
> before longer ones, so in this case, 'go' wins.

The "shorter wins" makes sure we have a defined way. But for yum one even
better way of doing this might be to also check the comps file. If one
of the choices is mentioned there, then only use that one instead of the
above ranking.
This of course also means you'd have to mention sendmail in the comps/selection
file.


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Enrico Scholz
 | 
3 Feb 22:28





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


jkeating <at> redhat.com (Jesse Keating) writes:

> Do you have any other suggestions on how to programattically decide
> what choice out of many options you'd use to satisfy a dep?

Abort transaction when it is ambiguous (kickstart) or ask the user which
alternative he wants (interactive anaconda).

Enrico



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Ralf Ertzinger
 | 
3 Feb 23:20





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Hi.

On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 22:28:13 +0100, Enrico Scholz wrote

> Abort transaction when it is ambiguous (kickstart)

Err, no. If a dependency can be satisfied in various ways then anaconda
is free to choose any one of the possibilities at it's discretion in
my book.

If I want a certain package then I as the admin can put it into the
kickstart file.

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Enrico Scholz
 | 
3 Feb 23:43





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


fedora <at> camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) writes:

>> Abort transaction when it is ambiguous (kickstart)
>
> Err, no. If a dependency can be satisfied in various ways then anaconda
> is free to choose any one of the possibilities at it's discretion in my
> book.

Such a behavior is just a maintainance nightmare. 'kickstart' is used to
build systems in a reproducible way. Having a clear semantic ("transactions
must be always unambigous") would help to avoid bad surprises.

(This works for years with 'apt'.)

Enrico



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Ralf Ertzinger
 | 
3 Feb 23:53





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Hi.

On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 23:43:29 +0100, Enrico Scholz wrote

> Such a behavior is just a maintainance nightmare. 'kickstart' is used
> to build systems in a reproducible way. Having a clear semantic
> ("transactions must be always unambigous") would help to avoid bad
> surprises.

If you reproducably want sendmail then tell kickstart so instead of
relying on side effects.

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Enrico Scholz
 | 
4 Feb 00:06





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


fedora <at> camperquake.de (Ralf Ertzinger) writes:

>> Such a behavior is just a maintainance nightmare. 'kickstart' is
>> used to build systems in a reproducible way. Having a clear semantic
>> ("transactions must be always unambigous") would help to avoid bad
>> surprises.
>
> If you reproducably want sendmail then tell kickstart so instead of
> relying on side effects.

Exactly. That's why, kickstart should abort on ambigous transactions.

Enrico



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Emmanuel Seyman
 | 
7 Feb 01:23






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Sun, Feb 04, 2007 at 12:06:03AM +0100, Enrico Scholz wrote:
> >
> > If you reproducably want sendmail then tell kickstart so instead of
> > relying on side effects.
> 
> Exactly. That's why, kickstart should abort on ambigous transactions.

Now, all we need is a way to make kickstart figure out if you
reproducibly want sendmail or not.

Emmanuel

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Enrico Scholz
 | 
7 Feb 08:58





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


emmanuel.seyman <at> club-internet.fr (Emmanuel Seyman) writes:

>> > If you reproducably want sendmail then tell kickstart so instead of
>> > relying on side effects.
>> 
>> Exactly. That's why, kickstart should abort on ambigous transactions.
>
> Now, all we need is a way to make kickstart figure out if you
> reproducibly want sendmail or not.

Easy; %package has already a '--resolvedeps' option. Just add '--fuzzydeps'
or '--exactdeps' options which switch between both operation modes (default
should be '--exactdeps').

Enrico



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Florian La Roche
 | 
4 Feb 01:45






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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Sat, Feb 03, 2007 at 11:20:00PM +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 22:28:13 +0100, Enrico Scholz wrote
> 
> > Abort transaction when it is ambiguous (kickstart)
> 
> Err, no. If a dependency can be satisfied in various ways then anaconda
> is free to choose any one of the possibilities at it's discretion in
> my book.
> 
> If I want a certain package then I as the admin can put it into the
> kickstart file.

If you have several possibilities, you could also check if
e.g. the comps file would favour one of them.
Until now the MTA packages have been one of the very few where
several possibilities have been available. sendmail has been
the only choice which is also mentioned in the comps file at
all.

regards,

Florian La Roche

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David Nielsen
 | 
3 Feb 21:34






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


lør, 03 02 2007 kl. 16:47 +0100, skrev Thomas M Steenholdt:
> I noticed that Exim is being installed as the default MTA, at least on 
> the Desktop installation of Fedora 7 test1. Is this change intentional? 
> I can't seem to find it mentioned anywhere?!?

What in a desktop install could possibly require an MTA.. it seems a bit
daft to me.

- David

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Joachim Frieben
 | 
3 Feb 21:37





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


> What in a desktop install could possibly require an MTA.. it seems a bit
> daft to me.
> 
> - David

Well, as mentioned earlier, "mutt" does, and this is certainly not a server application ..
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Enrico Scholz
 | 
3 Feb 22:30





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


jfrieben <at> gmx.de ("Joachim Frieben") writes:

>> What in a desktop install could possibly require an MTA.. it seems a
>> bit daft to me.
>
> Well, as mentioned earlier, "mutt" does, and this is certainly not a
> server application ..

That's a packaging bug. 'mutt' requires a program with a sendmail
compatible CLI, but not an MTA.

Enrico



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Patrice Dumas
 | 
3 Feb 22:50






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Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Sat, Feb 03, 2007 at 10:30:04PM +0100, Enrico Scholz wrote:
> 
> That's a packaging bug. 'mutt' requires a program with a sendmail
> compatible CLI, but not an MTA.

Indeed, but a MTA also provides that. Among the candidates esmtp and
ssmtp may be better suited for mutt, but both come unconfigured for 
local delivery.

For the record here are the packages that provide a sendmail 
compatible CLI:

sendmail-0:8.13.8-4.i386
postfix-2:2.3.6-1.i386
esmtp-0:0.5.1-13.fc6.i386
exim-0:4.63-6.fc7.i386
ssmtp-0:2.61-11.1.fc7.i386

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Chris Adams
 | 
3 Feb 21:40






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Once upon a time, David Nielsen <david <at> lovesunix.net> said:
> What in a desktop install could possibly require an MTA.. it seems a bit
> daft to me.

Like it or not, /usr/sbin/sendmail (and still /usr/lib/sendmail) are the
"standard" ways to send an email on a Unix-like system.

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Jesse Keating
 | 
3 Feb 22:00






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Saturday 03 February 2007 15:34, David Nielsen wrote:
> What in a desktop install could possibly require an MTA.. it seems a bit
> daft to me.

mdadm.  Some desktops do have software raid.
fetchmail.  Some desktops do read email.

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Miloslav Trmac
 | 
3 Feb 22:04





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


Jesse Keating napsal(a):
> On Saturday 03 February 2007 15:34, David Nielsen wrote:
>> What in a desktop install could possibly require an MTA.. it seems a bit
>> daft to me.
> fetchmail.  Some desktops do read email.
Desktops use a GUI mail client, though.

Another example: cron requires /usr/sbin/sendmail, and even a desktop
machine needs cron.
	Mirek

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Jesse Keating
 | 
3 Feb 22:32






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Saturday 03 February 2007 16:04, Miloslav Trmac wrote:
> > fetchmail.  Some desktops do read email.
>
> Desktops use a GUI mail client, though.

fetchmail is a method to fetch mail from remote places and deliver it locally, 
which can then be viewed with a gui client or a nongui client.

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Emmanuel Seyman
 | 
7 Feb 01:18






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Sat, Feb 03, 2007 at 10:04:21PM +0100, Miloslav Trmac wrote:
>
> Desktops use a GUI mail client, though.

Desktop machines don't use anything. Users on those machines will use
non-gui or gui tools, depending on which one they find best (and best
being a subjective state, it cannot be defined).

Emmanuel

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Till Maas
 | 
10 Feb 01:49





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Saturday 03 February 2007 22:00, Jesse Keating wrote:

> fetchmail.  Some desktops do read email.

fetchmail can deliver mails with procmail or maildrop to local users.

Regards,
Till

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Patrice Dumas
 | 
10 Feb 10:24






Favicon





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


On Sat, Feb 10, 2007 at 01:49:19AM +0100, Till Maas wrote:
> On Saturday 03 February 2007 22:00, Jesse Keating wrote:
> 
> > fetchmail.  Some desktops do read email.
> 
> fetchmail can deliver mails with procmail or maildrop to local users.

Indeed, but see bug
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=66396

It seems to rely on a real MTA for bounce mail.

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Nicolas Mailhot
 | 
17 Feb 14:32





Re: Default MTA for Fedora 7


David Nielsen a écrit :
> lør, 03 02 2007 kl. 16:47 +0100, skrev Thomas M Steenholdt:
>   
>> I noticed that Exim is being installed as the default MTA, at least on 
>> the Desktop installation of Fedora 7 test1. Is this change intentional? 
>> I can't seem to find it mentioned anywhere?!?
>>     
>
> What in a desktop install could possibly require an MTA.. it seems a bit
> daft to me.
>   
A fetchmail -> local mta with spam filtering -> local imap server

will do wonders on a desktop system. Benefits over using mail client 
spam filtering :

- it just works
- you don't have to reconfigure the filtering each time you switch mail 
clients or upgrade them
- you can use as many mail/webmail clients in parallel over the same 
backend as you want
- it filters even when the user session is closed, no need to wait 
minutes for the mail client to digest new mails in the morning
- it can be wickedly more efficient than GUI stuff
- it just works

What's daft is not using a full MTA but serverising mail clients so they 
process stuff in the background (except you lose as soon as you close 
your GUI sessions, GUI writers don't know zip about keeping 
compatibility, the GUI clients fight each other,  the good spam filters 

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