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Alain PORTAL | 7 Sep 01:32
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Why I'll leave fedora (french speaking people only) [1]

Pfff...

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=455277#c8

En fait, quand je me relis, je me rend compte que finalement je ne donne pas 
vraiment les raisons... Sans doute ai-je trop donné d'explications ailleurs.

Eh Trashy, Zig Heil !

No regards for ass holes
Alain

[1] You can read french?
I'm sorry, but don't forget french is the diplomacy language.
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Lyos Gemini Norezel | 7 Sep 04:09

Re: Why I'll leave fedora (french speaking people only) [1]

Alain PORTAL wrote:
> Pfff...
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=455277#c8
>
> En fait, quand je me relis, je me rend compte que finalement je ne donne pas 
> vraiment les raisons... Sans doute ai-je trop donné d'explications ailleurs.
>
> Eh Trashy, Zig Heil !
>
> No regards for ass holes
> Alain
>
> [1] You can read french?
> I'm sorry, but don't forget french is the diplomacy language.
>   
Ok... I cannot read French... but from what google's translator is able 
to decipher... it looks to me like you are the one being unreasonable.
You say here: "Je te trouve particulièrement glonflé de venir oser me 
proposer ton aide alors que tu m'as banni à la fois d'IRC [1] et des 
forums fedora-fr..."
that you were banned from IRC and fedora-fr... well, if you were indeed 
banned, there must have been some reason for it.

I won't delve into that here... though I'm sure someone will enlighten us.

The point is... things take time... and with everything going on with 
Fedora Infrastructure in the last month... you should expect it to take 
longer.
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Seth Vidal | 7 Sep 04:35
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Re: Why I'll leave fedora (french speaking people only) [1]

On Sat, 2008-09-06 at 22:09 -0400, Lyos Gemini Norezel wrote:
> Alain PORTAL wrote:
> > Pfff...
> >
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=455277#c8
> >
> > En fait, quand je me relis, je me rend compte que finalement je ne donne pas 
> > vraiment les raisons... Sans doute ai-je trop donné d'explications ailleurs.
> >
> > Eh Trashy, Zig Heil !
> >
> > No regards for ass holes
> > Alain
> >
> > [1] You can read french?
> > I'm sorry, but don't forget french is the diplomacy language.
> >   
> Ok... I cannot read French... but from what google's translator is able 
> to decipher... it looks to me like you are the one being unreasonable.
> You say here: "Je te trouve particulièrement glonflé de venir oser me 
> proposer ton aide alors que tu m'as banni à la fois d'IRC [1] et des 
> forums fedora-fr..."
> that you were banned from IRC and fedora-fr... well, if you were indeed 
> banned, there must have been some reason for it.

Let's be fair here. Just b/c someone was punished for something does not
mean that they did anything wrong.

unjust punishments happen all the time.
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Lyos Gemini Norezel | 7 Sep 04:53

Re: Why I'll leave fedora (french speaking people only) [1]

Seth Vidal wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-09-06 at 22:09 -0400, Lyos Gemini Norezel wrote:
>
> Let's be fair here. Just b/c someone was punished for something does not
> mean that they did anything wrong.
>
> unjust punishments happen all the time.
>
> -sv

Seth...
    You are, of course, correct...
I guess I was just hoping this wouldn't be another case of an asshole 
mod abusing his powers.

If it is indeed, such an asshole mod... then that mod should be 
permanently removed from his/her
position of power... and suspended until a review board of his/her peers 
reviews all the particulars
of the case.

If you can't tell already... I hate assholes who abuse their power.

At any rate... if I'm right to hold out hope... then my advice was right on.

Lyos Gemini Norezel

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Vasile Gaburici | 7 Sep 12:08

Re: Why I'll leave fedora (french speaking people only) [1]

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 5:35 AM, Seth Vidal <skvidal <at> fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-09-06 at 22:09 -0400, Lyos Gemini Norezel wrote:
>> Alain PORTAL wrote:
>> > Pfff...
>> >
>> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=455277#c8
>> >
>> > En fait, quand je me relis, je me rend compte que finalement je ne donne pas
>> > vraiment les raisons... Sans doute ai-je trop donné d'explications ailleurs.
>> >
>> > Eh Trashy, Zig Heil !
>> >
>> > No regards for ass holes
>> > Alain
>> >
>> > [1] You can read french?
>> > I'm sorry, but don't forget french is the diplomacy language.
>> >
>> Ok... I cannot read French... but from what google's translator is able
>> to decipher... it looks to me like you are the one being unreasonable.
>> You say here: "Je te trouve particulièrement glonflé de venir oser me
>> proposer ton aide alors que tu m'as banni à la fois d'IRC [1] et des
>> forums fedora-fr..."
>> that you were banned from IRC and fedora-fr... well, if you were indeed
>> banned, there must have been some reason for it.
>
>
> Let's be fair here. Just b/c someone was punished for something does not
> mean that they did anything wrong.
>
(Continue reading)

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Lyos Gemini Norezel | 7 Sep 12:24

Re: Why I'll leave fedora (french speaking people only) [1]

Vasile Gaburici wrote:
>
> I his bugzilla message he is complaining (amongst other things) that
> FESCO did not consider the matter.
>   

I, too, noticed this. I forgot to mention it in my previous message...
but I wanted to ask:

Was this issue ever raised in a FESCo meeting?
Was this issue ever put on the discussion agenda?

One thing many people do not understand... is that any (comparatively) small
governing body, is (by necessity) going to be swamped by issues. I/We 
may not like it
(I despise bureaucracy in all it's forms)... but it's a fact of life.

If he did do either of the above... then I can share his outrage.
Otherwise... *shrug*... you can't help those who refuse to help themselves.

Just my thoughts/opinions.
Lyos Gemini Norezel

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Kevin Fenzi | 7 Sep 18:32

Re: Why I'll leave fedora (french speaking people only) [1]

On Sun, 07 Sep 2008 06:24:38 -0400
lyos.gemininorezel <at> gmail.com (Lyos Gemini Norezel) wrote:

> Vasile Gaburici wrote:
> >
> > I his bugzilla message he is complaining (amongst other things) that
> > FESCO did not consider the matter.
> >   
> 
> I, too, noticed this. I forgot to mention it in my previous message...
> but I wanted to ask:
> 
> Was this issue ever raised in a FESCo meeting?

Which issue? I know Alain's problems with some of the fedora french
community have been discussed. 

> Was this issue ever put on the discussion agenda?

Not that I can recall, although again, it depends on which issue you
are talking about here. 

> One thing many people do not understand... is that any
> (comparatively) small governing body, is (by necessity) going to be
> swamped by issues. I/We may not like it
> (I despise bureaucracy in all it's forms)... but it's a fact of life.

Sure, this is one reason I wanted to setup the trac instance to track
issues that need FESCo input.
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Jeff Spaleta | 7 Sep 21:23

Re: Why I'll leave fedora (french speaking people only) [1]

2008/9/7 Kevin Fenzi <kevin <at> scrye.com>:
> I think there are communications problems going on here.
> It doesn't help that many of the people looking at this do not speak
> french and thus may be misunderstanding Alain.

Setting aside the specific people and problems bubbling up right now.
Would it make sense for  the Board to try to take up the issue of some
sort of established process to follow when there are language barriers
getting in the way of normal dispute resolution?  So we can try to get
ahead this sort of situation when it happens again.

I can imagine that this might be a place where our Ambassador pool can
be called on to act as mediators/arbitration if the are willing to
take on that role.

-jef"If we'd all just agree to communicate strictly pythonicly we
woudn't have a problem"spaleta

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Jon Stanley | 14 Sep 01:18

Re: Why I'll leave fedora (french speaking people only) [1]

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> Setting aside the specific people and problems bubbling up right now.
> Would it make sense for  the Board to try to take up the issue of some
> sort of established process to follow when there are language barriers
> getting in the way of normal dispute resolution?  So we can try to get
> ahead this sort of situation when it happens again.

Apologies for not seeing this earlier, just catching up on some old
mail that I have neglected :(.  I'm not sure that the Board needs to
make a policy for this sort of thing, it (hopefully) doesn't happen
often and can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis when it does.
Though reaching out earlier than the point that it becomes a crisis
would be helpful.

> I can imagine that this might be a place where our Ambassador pool can
> be called on to act as mediators/arbitration if the are willing to
> take on that role.

I think that this is an excellent idea, and had thought of the same
myself in this particular situation. Has anyone reached out to the
ambassadors to deal with the situation at hand?

I'm looking at a rawhide install right now with the man-pages-fr conflict :(

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Lyos Gemini Norezel | 7 Sep 05:05

Re: Why I'll leave fedora (french speaking people only) [1]

Lyos Gemini Norezel wrote:
> Alain PORTAL wrote:
>> Pfff...
>>
>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=455277#c8
>>
>> En fait, quand je me relis, je me rend compte que finalement je ne 
>> donne pas vraiment les raisons... Sans doute ai-je trop donné 
>> d'explications ailleurs.
>>
>> Eh Trashy, Zig Heil !
>>
>> No regards for ass holes
>> Alain
>>
>> [1] You can read french?
>> I'm sorry, but don't forget french is the diplomacy language.
>>   
> Ok... I cannot read French... but from what google's translator is 
> able to decipher... it looks to me like you are the one being 
> unreasonable.
> You say here: "Je te trouve particulièrement glonflé de venir oser me 
> proposer ton aide alors que tu m'as banni à la fois d'IRC [1] et des 
> forums fedora-fr..."
> that you were banned from IRC and fedora-fr... well, if you were 
> indeed banned, there must have been some reason for it.
>
> I won't delve into that here... though I'm sure someone will enlighten 
> us.
>
(Continue reading)

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Vasile Gaburici | 7 Sep 11:47

Re: Why I'll leave fedora (french speaking people only) [1]

Well, I can read French. Reading that long diatribe on bugzilla
reminded me of some talk pages on less reputable forums and wikis...
Also, the "Zig Heil" in the email sent to this list is getting close
to Godwin's law.

I'm not going to comment on the long-term ban because I don't know the
specifics, but I think a bit of moderation wouldn't hurt both sides in
this matter. If administrative abuse did happen, I'm sure there's a
civilized way to address it.

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 6:05 AM, Lyos Gemini Norezel
<lyos.gemininorezel <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> Lyos Gemini Norezel wrote:
>>
>> Alain PORTAL wrote:
>>>
>>> Pfff...
>>>
>>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=455277#c8
>>>
>>> En fait, quand je me relis, je me rend compte que finalement je ne donne
>>> pas vraiment les raisons... Sans doute ai-je trop donné d'explications
>>> ailleurs.
>>>
>>> Eh Trashy, Zig Heil !
>>>
>>> No regards for ass holes
>>> Alain
>>>
>>> [1] You can read french?
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Denis Leroy | 7 Sep 14:18

Re: Why I'll leave fedora (french speaking people only) [1]

Vasile Gaburici wrote:
> Well, I can read French. Reading that long diatribe on bugzilla
> reminded me of some talk pages on less reputable forums and wikis...
> Also, the "Zig Heil" in the email sent to this list is getting close
> to Godwin's law.
> 
> I'm not going to comment on the long-term ban because I don't know the
> specifics, but I think a bit of moderation wouldn't hurt both sides in
> this matter. If administrative abuse did happen, I'm sure there's a
> civilized way to address it.

Right, there is clearly a need for mediation here. I read one of the 
forum discussions that led to Alain's ban, and there is indeed evidence 
of some verbal abuse and unfortunate postings, evidence of someone 
having a bad linux day. While this is hardly an excuse, the month ban 
seems harsh. Alain feels he has been cut off from his main source of 
packaging technical help. Maybe we should create a fedora-devel-fr 
mailing list ?

I don't know what happened about the IRC channels ban. Hopefully Johan 
can post the logs and explain.

-denis

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Johan Cwiklinski | 7 Sep 15:20
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Re: Why I'll leave fedora (french speaking people only) [1]

Denis Leroy a écrit :
> Vasile Gaburici wrote:
>> Well, I can read French. Reading that long diatribe on bugzilla
>> reminded me of some talk pages on less reputable forums and wikis...
>> Also, the "Zig Heil" in the email sent to this list is getting close
>> to Godwin's law.
>>
>> I'm not going to comment on the long-term ban because I don't know the
>> specifics, but I think a bit of moderation wouldn't hurt both sides in
>> this matter. If administrative abuse did happen, I'm sure there's a
>> civilized way to address it.
>
> Right, there is clearly a need for mediation here. I read one of the
> forum discussions that led to Alain's ban, and there is indeed
> evidence of some verbal abuse and unfortunate postings, evidence of
> someone having a bad linux day. While this is hardly an excuse, the
> month ban seems harsh. Alain feels he has been cut off from his main
> source of packaging technical help. Maybe we should create a
> fedora-devel-fr mailing list ?
>
> I don't know what happened about the IRC channels ban. Hopefully Johan
> can post the logs and explain.
>
> -denis
>
Hi,

I did not want to respond that thread, because it's an evidence that
insults is not the way to resolve anything, he is not asking any
question nor trying to resolve the problem ; an answer from me was not
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Alain PORTAL | 7 Sep 04:35
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Re: Why I'll leave fedora (french speaking people only) [1]

Le dimanche 07 septembre 2008, Alain PORTAL a écrit :

> [1] You can read french?

Humm...
Of course, there is a typo here, I wanted to say: "You can't read french?"

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Kevin Fenzi | 7 Sep 18:29

Re: Why I'll leave fedora (french speaking people only) [1]

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 01:35:54 +0200
alain.portal <at> free.fr (Alain PORTAL) wrote:

> Pfff...
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=455277#c8

I have commented in the bug with info on how to solve your key issues
and offered to try and mediate (or find someone who speaks french) who
can do so. 

kevin

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